Dear Ms. Keller,
To be honest, I really have had no desire to write a single word about Weinergate. Our guest blogger, Razib has been keeping tabs on the story for us here at Sepia Mutiny. Other than my girlcrush on the fashionable lady married to the man in question and my well-wishes for the future success of the individuals involved, I didn’t really care to comment on the matter. After all, who knows/cares what goes on in the boudoirs of a married couple.
Those are exactly the sentiments you express in your post for Vanity Fair. In “Advice for Huma Abedin, Wife of Representative Anthony Weiner,” you write, “We’ve never been able to fathom the laws of attraction, and we haven’t a clue what goes on in other people’s relationships. She says she’s staying. So we’ll take it from there, and give her some tips to help make it work.” Then you go on to comment on their relationship. Well, what’s a little gossip between us ladies? Right? Right. Let me start by saying how much I admire your five tips for Ms. Abedin Mrs. Weiner. Stay home. Focus on the family. Lose lame-o mentors like Hillary (with her goshdarnawful contagious marital problems). Make awesome babies. All fabulous tips that my grandmother has been telling me for years.
And I’m not going to quibble about the babies, Ms. Keller. Babies are awesome. You’ve definitely done your share of research on babies and career women. Some might even say you’re an expert. After all, what works for you has to work for everyone, right? In the piece, you write, “It [motherhood] is the most exciting identity change a woman can undergo.” People who can’t or won’t have babies are just awful, awful people in my book. Communists, even. When I was younger, I was kinda looking forward to changing my identity through my career. Reinventing myself as a Bollywood backup singer was looking pretty exciting to me. But now that I’m getting old, I’m just focused on babies. They rock.
You’re totally on target when you say careers = not cool. Especially when they interfere with family time. Your career ladder climbing suggestions for Ms. Abedin: “Want to take a trip? Accompany Representative Weiner, not Secretary Clinton.” (Maybe if she hadn’t traveled… bad things wouldn’t have happened, eh? Wink, wink, nudge. It’s always the wife, I say.) And speaking of which, I agree. She should totally quit that loser job with Mrs. Clinton and come home. Your advice, “Try to separate yourself a little–you’re both strong women, but you’re a different generation, in a different situation, and you don’t deserve to be lumped together in the Lonely Hearts Club.” Working for a U.S. Representative vs. a Secretary of State is definitely a way better career move. Sorry, I keep forgetting. We don’t like careers. My mistake. Motherhood = the only job a woman should want.
And last, but not least (stay with me here, I’m working backwards), I adore this sentence. “While other people have been looking at your wedding ring and your brave smile, we’ve been noticing the number and size of the bags you’ve been carrying. And you’re only in the first trimester. Lighten the load and stay home.” I’m glad you mentioned that! I’ve been reading about your distinguished career as a gynecologist/ obstetrician. Pregnant women should not travel/exercise/move. Bed rest is the way to go for sure. My mom knows a lady who knows a lady who knows a lady who walked while she was pregnant and she almost fainted when she was walking down the sidewalk. Anyway, thank you so much for sharing your tips with Mrs. Weiner. We both know she needs ALL the advice she can get.
Your Number One Fan,
PG
I’m still waiting for the first big female politician’s sex scandal. No one will know how to react. Could you imagine a female Bubba? Thats going to be great. I can’t wait.
Satyajit Wry,
The phenomenon of east asian american women overwhelmingly dating men of european descent is well documented with the rationale of “societal upgrading” frequently informing it. …. the East Asian American female proclivity to social climb on racial grounds is well documented (and well-lamented by my east asian american male friends).
Since you keep saying that there’s all this documentation for your biases, please provide bibliography. Personally I know just as many brown guys who married out as brown girls who did, and I’m not aware of any of the brown women who “married up” socioeconomically (though some of the whites both male and female did, e.g. white nurse marrying desi doc or white guy of middle-class family marrying brown daughter of wealthy doctors) but you must have something better than anecdata.
Also, if you think someone who’s a Jew must be of European descent, you might want to visit Israel (or just travel on the cheap a bit more — seems like every young Israeli who’s finished his/her military service goes backpacking). Also, Jews historically were NOT treated as white, and I hope you have better sense than to play Oppression Olympics with that particular race/religion, because you’re going to lose badly.
To stereotype individuals of the latter category smacks of hypocrisy because many who make the argument are the same ones who frequently decry not being judged as individuals.
Except one’s socioeconomic class is as arbitrary (and thus as inappropriate to stereotype about) as one’s religion/culture/”civilization.” Indeed, while it’s probably irrational to run away from your socioeconomic class if it’s an elite one — almost everyone wants to be richer and better-educated — there’s nothing irrational in rejecting a religion, culture or “civilization” that you personally dislike despite having been raised in it.
If Huma Abedin said she is unhappy with the status of women in Islam and therefore refuses to date anyone who identifies as Muslim because of the belief system embedded therein, I don’t think she’s a hypocrite for not wanting to be stereotyped because she was born of Muslim parents. If a woman raised among Hasidic Jews says to hell with a culture that expects her to stay covered up, get married, pump out babies AND either support the family or be on welfare while her husband studies the Torah, I don’t think she’s a hypocrite if she protests anti-Semitism.
Manju,
Agreed that the race of the person in the scandal isn’t inherently determinative. However, I suspect it’s like the statistics of who ends up getting the death penalty, i.e. intra-racial gets a pass where inter-racial might create much bigger problems. Obama probably wouldn’t have to resign over a sex scandal unless his partner was a white woman (or a man of any race), at which point his support in the African-American community would take a massive hit that might endanger his ability to ride out the storm.
“and I hope you have better sense than to play Oppression Olympics with that particular race/religion, because you’re going to lose badly.”
Umm…wtf are you talking about? One, I did not even make an issue of Rep. Weiner’s being Jewish, so clearly you didn’t have your morning cup of coffee. Two, I have plenty of jewish friends, and guess which race they select when identifying on applications (hint: it’s not Asian and Pacific Islander)? Most people are aware of the origins of the jewish people, and many are aware of the three key subgroups (ashkenazi, mizrahi, and sephardic). If you think you’re qualified for a lecture on the topic, please post your credentials and we will all wax eloquent in ennui…
“there’s nothing irrational in rejecting a religion, culture or “civilization” that you personally dislike despite having been raised in it. “
It is if you understand nothing about it, prejudge all usr members of the group, and consciously run away from it in spite of your ignorance of it. And it would be if the woman were rejecting ALL jews rather than just hasidic jews. Just like not every Sikh is a Nirankari (or hindu or muslim an ultra-orthodox practitioner), not every Jew is hasidic. It would def be eyebrow-raise worthy if your hypothetical woman rejected even reform jews on this basis and would smack of the very ignorance I am decrying here.
For the love of god, instead of pontificating, please read comments more clearly and not just look for opportunities to posture. As I have said a million times, it’s a free country, marry whomever you want, but don’t invent or perpetuate ridiculous stereotypes just because it conveniently justifies an ulterior motive or rationalizes your choice. If you genuinely fall in love, or just so admire a culture and its people so much, and you end up marrying someone from some other background, hey, have a happy life. Just don’t say it’s cause “oh, all men in my religion/culture group are like this”. I have friends who live in podunk, usa–guess who the biggest wifebeaters are (and given these proclivities, I don’t imagine you’ll be getting them to help out around the house either)? Heck, this group even popularized a synonymous article of clothing in the process…
The point of this not to cry oppression, something I already disavowed in no uncertain terms. Given the rough balance in indian male and female exogamy rates, we hardly have that much to complain about. All I was doing was pointing out how silly it is when women (and this is a rare but notable occurrence) look at their own men (of whatever economic background) as troglodytes without even meeting them and then cry hoarse about how they themselves are not judged as individuals.
“Since you keep saying that there’s all this documentation for your biases, please provide bibliography”
http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial2.shtml
Enjoy (and I love, btw, your decrying of my “anecdata” while using your own…well done)
For future reference PG, if you want to engage in discussion, please read my comments carefully and avoid erecting strawmen like Rep. Weiner’s religion. Good day
OMG, I can’t stand guys who have that “stick it to the white man” mentality that someone mentioned above. It points towards an inferiority complex and an immature mindset. Women are not a “tool” for you to use in your psychological battle against white men, okay? Also, the sexist double standards involved piss me off. I’ve met a couple of these guys in real life who genuinely, strongly believe that brown boys are “allowed” to date out but brown girls shouldn’t, and I can assure you that they are hardly the type of guys you would consider a catch. Girls, if you meet a guy who subcribes to this doctrine, it’s usually a sign that there’ll be more sexism to come.
I also have to agree with ZacharyLatif’s point that this whole saga had practically NOTHING to do with race, really.
I also find all the grief women get for marrying out of their ethnic group to be tiresome and sexist: men rarely get the same grief. It’s 2011, but the Desi community still can’t get over the shock of a woman dating “out-of-bounds”. So tell us, where are the “bounds” defined: should Indians only marry Indians and Paks other Paks? Or are the bounds ethnic? Tamils with Tamils and Punjabis with Punjabis? How ’bout a Paki Muslim with a Persian Muslim, would that be ok or worse than if he married an Indian Hindu? What about India’s neighbor to the East: is it ok if we get friendly with the Chinese? 😉
Our tendency to create little boxes to pigeonhole people’s life choices is kinda silly. Imagine if we created a whole caste system revolving around it! Oh wait… 😛
Hmm afaik Huma seems to identify as Muslim, but I could be wrong. But I agree with your overall point: not everyone embraces the religion (or culture) they’re born into. Personally what turns me off from dating a lot of Afghans is that they seem overwhelmingly religious, to the point of being nutters, but I digress…
just feel for his wife, who seems graceful and discreet. people like her husband are built up by society (cosmopolitan magazine called named him “future president” and “sexiest bachelor” in 96 when all he had done was barely win city council). so they have huge Confidence to approach beautiful women like huma. but this same confidence lets him believe that he can approach numerous cute women (and a girl) online in such a brazen and graphic way. now that huma knows what’s behind his confidence, perhaps she will consult with maria shriver.
moreover, anyone who treats women like he did is a liberal in name only (“LINO”). wonder if his screaming passion for the 9/11 firefighters, public option, women’s rights is all that. smacks of opportunism. the country needs maturity in office, not just liberal or conservative hacks. there is a great deal to learn from each side.
Heh. After, “white woman (or a man of any race)†you threw the curveball “his support in the African-American community would take a massive hitâ€. Well, the fastball would’ve worked too but the problem is there are so few dataponts on the national stage. We need a non-white in a sex scandal at the national level: President, Cabinet, and I would include Governor and Senate.
House Rep doesn’t cut it. Here, the local electorate can overturn the national consensus. Rangel (or for that matter Adam Clayton Powell, Jr.) and Maxine Waters can tap into a huge historical narrative of unequal protection under the law and their constituents are likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. And even if they don’t they still might want pull a jury-nullification. Turnaround is fair play.
Moseley Braun or Roland Burris had much less room to maneuver.
Weiner isn’t too big to fail like Clinton so National Dems are unwilling to blow the political capital necessary to keep him propped up. But Weiner’s fate really depends on whether or not his overwhelmingly Dem district is Liberal enough to not care. The problem is Queens is funky. In real life Archie Bunker is a Democrat as Geraldine Ferraro did her best to remind us. So Weiner might not be home free, even in a Dem safe seat. He’s got to cow tow a little to social conservatives.
Let’s forget the fact that the Archie Bunker of yesteryear swapped allegiancce to the GOP thanks to the Wrong’un, and that Marilyn Davenport works for the GOP, shall we.
The real real life Archie Bunker is a wingnut from St.Louis, MO, from the Limbaugh clan.
Weiner shouldn’t care, especially for his priceless line about every Republican being a fully owned subsidiary of the health insurance industry, and may we add, the banking/mercenary/prison industries as well? For a guy who called out GOP scum and dregs like Paul Ryan, Boehner and McConnell for the crooks they are, he deserves a round of applause.
Jyotsana: “Weiner shouldn’t care, especially for his priceless line about every Republican being a fully owned subsidiary of the health insurance industry, and may we add, the banking/mercenary/prison industries as well? For a guy who called out GOP scum and dregs like Paul Ryan, Boehner and McConnell for the crooks they are, he deserves a round of applause.”
I agree with you. I actually very much appreciated Congressmen Weiner. He was extremely principled, full of integrity, charismatic, and spoke truth to power, and he would never get intimidated. I’ve never seen so much moral courage on display like the way he lambasted the Republicans. Some of it was actually cringe-worthy, but at least he called out the Republicans for having illicit tweeter relationships with Big Business.
WHat is HUma famous for anyway other than being Hillary’s confidant and secretary? I hear all this stuff about her genius, but then when I look into what she is famous for – it’s being loyal to Hillary, a very good organizer , and was something of a catch when Weiner pursued her. Goood attributes to have, certainly, but is that it?
Anyway, I don’t say that to attack her. Just curious why she got so famous other than for being Hillary’s trusted aide.
As for Weiner and Huma, it’s their personal business. Huma should just tell anyone who tries to advise her to go to hell. If she feels that Weiner’s pluses outweigh his negatives, then she stays with him. It’s as simple as that.
And a lot of DC people flirt shamelessly. Just not stupid enough to do it online. I am actually surprised Weiner hasn’t cheated with any of them. And I dont understand the women coming forward. most of them seemed to enjoy the interaction and 90% of them seem liberal. So why would they want to throw him under the bus by coming forward and talking about every little thing?
interesting, how just having liberal politics and lambasting Republicans is enough for some people to say weiner had principles, integrity, charisma, truth and moral courage! seems all backwards. perhaps moral courage, integrity, principles in character should be valued more in our politicians, regardless of which side of the aisle they are. we all saw how shamelessly the congressman went before the media and lied directly after his first pic. so baldfaced in claiming he was hacked that it hinted at a longer history of manipulation. is liberalism such an obviously superior moral construct that character and lying don’t matter as much anymore, and we should just defend anyone with the same politics as us?
“If she feels that Weiner’s pluses outweigh his negatives, then she stays with him. It’s as simple as that. “
you’re right in a way.but in a sacred relationship like marriage unfaithfulness overweighs 100 pluses.if she remains married it is is crystal clear that she wants to project the image of an “ideal woman” and political gains through it .that is exactly what Mrs.Clinton did.
Huma – here’s my advice, just send me and a bunch of other guys a picture of your ass. Nothing gets it going like a little payback.
She best leave him, otherwise what kind of advice will desi women give their daughters in the future:
“Work hard, study, move to a big city, meet a rich and powerful man, and maybe one day he TOO will send a picture of his d*ck to women out there!”
“All I was doing was pointing out how silly it is when women (and this is a rare but notable occurrence) look at their own men (of whatever economic background) as troglodytes without even meeting them and then cry hoarse about how they themselves are not judged as individuals.”
Here, Motha Fuckin’, Here.
rcola,
Given the fact that the GOP of today is a party of thugs (Scott Walker), shills for slaughter mining coal mafia and corrupt banks (John Kasich), celebrity hungry sub-100 IQ shirkers (Palin), moonbats (Bachman), obscurantists (Jindal), sleazy corporate cronies (Haley), embezzlers (Cain, West), and the general dreg and scum (Paul Ryan, Cantor, DeMint, McHenry, McConnell) it is not simply a matter of principle, but humanity that any legislator with half-a-brain remind the public what a bunch of crooks the GOP is. Anyone who says that before the Congress in his capacity as a national lawmaker, such as Weiner, deserves the Medal of Freedom.
One, I did not even make an issue of Rep. Weiner’s being Jewish
And yet, despite your not acknowledging it, Weiner IS Jewish. It’s incredibly oversimplifying to include all Jews in the white race. The fact that someone checks that box when given a limited set of options (incidentally, what do you expect someone with Saddam Hussein’s appearance and ethnicity to check off when given the standard White/Black/Latino/Asian/Native boxes?) is hardly determinative of either his true identification or whether he enjoys all the benefits of white privilege. I have a friend with a Korean dad and Scandinavian mom who identifies as Korean; I have a white-appearing friend who identifies as black because she was raised by a light-skinned African-American mom after her white dad abandoned their family. If you are going to say that the ability to get into country clubs is a rationale for seeing whites as having higher status than Indian-Americans (your comment at June 13, 2011 12:24 AM), despite the latter group’s higher average income (and wealth), then the historical distinguishing of Jews from Gentile whites is very relevant in a discussion of a desi woman’s marrying a Jewish man.
Your repeated thesis is that women of color marry whites in pursuit of higher socioeconomic status. To quote you directly, since you keep saying I’m not reading your comments: ‘the desi girl dating out to apparently “upgrade”‘; ‘fetishize a particular culture/race because you deem it a socio-economic upgrade’; ‘The phenomenon of east asian american women overwhelmingly dating men of european descent is well documented with the rationale of “societal upgrading” frequently informing it’; ‘the East Asian American female proclivity to social climb on racial grounds.’
For an example of not reading someone’s comment, I’d refer you to your saying that I decried anecdata while using my own — when what I actually did was label my personal experiences as anecdata, and say that you ought to be able to do better because you claim it’s all “well-documented.”
Unfortunately, your link doesn’t provide much support for your prior claim (at June 11, 2011 11:20 PM) “At least according to the numbers, the endogamy rate for Indian American women (hovers around 77%) would belie that.” Your link’s data indicates that desi men outmarry at higher rates than desi women, and the endogamy rates for both are above 90%. Perhaps that’s why, once you found some actual data, you said, “Given the rough balance in indian male and female exogamy rates, we hardly have that much to complain about.”
If there’s not that much to complain about — if, indeed, data indicates that complaining about imbalances in out-marriage ought to be by desi women — what exactly were your prior posts about? Moreover, why would you associate women of color’s out-marrying with social climbing, but not men of color’s out-marrying?
Nor does it include anything about what motivates out-marriage, despite your assertion that it’s “frequently” social-climbing.
What Weiner needs is a paper bag over his mug and some bromide in his morning coffee. Actually he’s supposedly getting that at tax payer expense during his “leave of absence”. Let’s hope that becomes permanent.
ToCatchAPredator,
I am glad Weiner’s condemnation of a criminal GOP has hit hard. I can’t find the time to laugh at the GOP like Bill Maher does, “Democrats Have moved to the right & the right has moved to the mental hospital.”
“And yet, despite your not acknowledging it, Weiner IS Jewish. It’s incredibly oversimplifying to include all Jews in the white race.”
PG, congratulations out of making an issue out of a nonissue. I have no stake in how Jews choose to self identify or the boxes the government allocates for them–that doesn’t change the reality that they do self-identify as whites. I am aware of the historical oppression jews faced not only in europe but also in america. You are just wasting space writing about this. So I’m going to just start ignoring you on this point.
“For an example of not reading someone’s comment, I’d refer you to your saying that I decried anecdata while using my own — when what I actually did was label my personal experiences as anecdata, and say that you ought to be able to do better because you claim it’s all “well-documented.””
No, an example of not reading someone’s comment is your entire pointless post regarding mine. I said it was well documented, and then proceeded to honor your request. I didn’t initially include links because this blog freq holds up links for moderator review. You labeled your personal experiences as anecdata, but you still actually used it as evidence. Mine was not anecdata, and was subsequently referenced. The issue is about validity of claims not labeling. If it is the latter, here is a product by brother electronics that may help you on your quest: http://www.staples.com/Brother-P-touch-PT-2700-High-Performance-Label-Maker/product-nr_636281?cmArea=class_box1
“Unfortunately, your link doesn’t provide much support for your prior claim (at June 11, 2011 11:20 PM) “At least according to the numbers, the endogamy rate for Indian American women (hovers around 77%) would belie that.” Your link’s data indicates that desi men outmarry at higher rates than desi women, and the endogamy rates for both are above 90%. “
Please learn how to read charts–Razib had the same problem when he was underrepresenting desi endogamy. USR + USR or Foreign born is the category to look at not All Spouses, because the latter includes recent immigrants (many of whom arrived after marriage and so would, by default, have married an indian in the desh), and USR + USR would naturally skew towards interracial couples. The USR + USR or Foreign born endogamy column for Indian American women is…drumroll please…77.5%. For Indian American men it’s 73.3. This is called rough balance, esp in comparison with Koreans at 35.3. and 60.7 respectively.
“what exactly were your prior posts about?”
Please learn to read.
“Nor does it include anything about what motivates out-marriage, despite your assertion that it’s “frequently” social-climbing.”
Please learn to read.
I will take a spouse who flirts online without my knowledge over a nagging but faithful (in every aspect) spouse any day. So it depend what you categorize as pluses or minuses. People are living longer. Meeting much later in life. Interactions outside the family unit are a lot more varied. Monogamy with an occasional fling is preferable to me than a series of serious relationships with kids. People need to get over this. Weiner’s fault was he didn’t limit his flirting to an occasional happy hour outside his close social circle. He embarassed his wife by leaving such an obvious trail.
The guy didn’t even cheat on his wife. People should feel entitled to lie about sex because he should not even feel obligated to comment on this in public in the first place. As far as using office resources, come on. Are you telling me, you never used your office phone to do personal business? Or used your office internet to order a tv or plane ticket?
“I will take a spouse who flirts online without my knowledge over a nagging but faithful (in every aspect) spouse any day
it depends on how you define”flirting”. a spouse who shows his or her naked body or wants to see other people’s naked body is not justifibale.obviously,he or she finds his or her spouse boring and somebody else more attractive. so your point of view is what ever be your spouse ,she should not nag you. does that mean you let her do any sketchy sexual behavior on internet without your knowledge? what if she does it with your knowledge? will you tolerate such a spouse?
that doesn’t change the reality that they do self-identify as whites
If you really think that checking a particular box of a small set means you must genuinely identify that way, and that moreover others identify you that way and treat you that way (especially in letting you into country clubs), I can’t help you beyond a recommendation that you look at how Arab-Americans are treated despite their checking the “white” box. Good grief, the U.S. Census reports that some South Asians are self-identifying as white — if self-identification is all that counts, that may make your whole theory of “social climbing” outmarriage short-circuit.
but you still actually used it as evidence
How so? My position has been that since I don’t claim to know what’s going on with every desi, or even most desis, I’m not going to go around insulting people by claiming to know what motivates their love lives (even though, if I went by “what my [particular race] friends tell me,” I could say nasty things about men and women of every race). I figure the desi men I know who have married white women fell in love, and the desi women who married white men did the same, and I wish them all the best in negotiating the additional difficulties attendant upon marrying someone who may have been raised with different cultural norms. I’m not hating on anyone, not even unnamed “rare but notable occurrences.”
USR + USR or Foreign born is the category to look at not All Spouses
So I can assume that when you say “Indian-American women,” you always mean only the Indian-American women who were raised in the U.S.? Because that’s a somewhat unusual definition of the term “Indian-American women.”
Please learn to read.
If you think a half-dozen theories, none of which have even the empirical basis of a survey of exogamously-marrying Asians (the only effort at data referred to a survey of White women’s dating preferences), and most of which are about Asian women being objectified rather than about their using white men as an “upgrade,” constitute factual support for your own biases… actually, that explains a lot.
“Monogamy with an occasional fling is preferable to me than a series of serious relationships with kids. “
you’re single,i guess.monogamy and occasional fling.if you believe in monogamy, how come you prefer occasional fling ?that means you’re bored of your spouse and you need another person in your life .but you want to stay married. isn’t it what we call unfaithfulness in a marriage?if the husband and wife prefer ocacasional fling,it will be like once in a year ,then twice in a year .eventually life will become a series of flings.in that case,why do we even think of a marriage in the first place?what is the importance of marriage?
“if self-identification is all that counts, that may make your whole theory of “social climbing” outmarriage short-circuit.”
It’s not, ask what the police racial profiles of various ethnic groups are and then get back to me.
“I figure the desi men I know who have married white women fell in love, and the desi women who married white men did the same, and I wish them all the best in negotiating the additional difficulties attendant upon marrying someone who may have been raised with different cultural norms. I’m not hating on anyone, not even unnamed “rare but notable occurrences.”
Please learn to read. For the umpteenth time, anyone who marries for love, where race and culture are incidental–hey, have a happy life. I am not faulting you or even ascribing ulterior motives here, because people genuinely do fall in love in spite of all things (methinks the need to defend your own personal relationship is blinding you to the fact that my comments are not actually directed towards you. you are conflating your life choice–which I imagine from your defensiveness was sincere– with the life choice that some people make that is not sincere or genuine). The rare but notable occurrence is still a real occurrence that, anecdata or not, people have experienced. This whole stupid debate started when Neelkanth Sharma cracked a joke (which he later clarified was meant to be tongue-in-cheek) which was followed by a remark by Anonymous Hippo which essentially stated that all indo men are wife-beating mama’s boys. So the choice is yours PG, do you want to continue to waste people’s time or will you just politely make the respectable, face-saving exit?
“If you think a half-dozen theories, none of which have even the empirical basis of a survey of exogamously-marrying Asians”
You asked for documentation and a bibliography–both are there if you care to read rather than obfuscate. Please stop wasting my time.
“I have no stake in how Jews choose to self identify or the boxes the government allocates for them–that doesn’t change the reality that they do self-identify as whites.”
The fact that we, from the outside looking in, identify them all as “goras” doesn’t make them a collective bunch. There is a huge difference between what the US Census calls “Caucasian” and what is actually “White” in America. The Census also identifies Afghans as “Caucasian”, but my Afghan family sure as hell doesn’t identify as “White” either, we’re “brown” South Asians and that’s what we check off.
I can tell you that growing up in a very WASPy community with a small (Ashkenazi) Jewish population, that there was definitely a distinction held between “Whites” (aka Gentiles) and Jews. Because of political correctness, that distinction and the tensions that come with it are not mentioned frequently in public, but they definitely do exist. However, I do agree with Zach that this particular situation isn’t about race.
“”Monogamy with an occasional fling is preferable to me than a series of serious relationships with kids. “
Hmm Idk if I could identify this as a “fling”. His behavior comes across extremely creepy and predatory; he sent naked pics of himself to a 17 yr old girl. It’s not like he had a private affair with an adult woman his age.
“However, I do agree with Zach that this particular situation isn’t about race.”
My comments about race and dating, as I specifically noted above, were not directed towards Huma Abedin, but to Anonymous Hippo, before this became a free-for-all. I’m not sure why you think you’re being informative with your comments about WASPs vs. Jews. I am aware full well of the severe anti-semitism that Jews–esp in new jersey–faced. But in the larger culture, people still see a “white man”. Louis C.K., himself of jewish descent, has a whole bit built around being white. Just as there are different groups among people from the indian subcontinent, there are among “whites” as well. This does not necessarily change general perceptions.
My comment was also obviously tongue-in-cheek, though I assumed Neelkanth was serious. Sorry to get you all hot and bothered Sepia Mutineers!
Alina, it’s not even a fling. He didn’t have sex. But I agree, his behavior does seem laughable and pitiful. I don’t think the age matters as much as the attention he is getting from women. I think this guy was not a stud in school, so he is overcompensating now. Not that it is right, but in the big scheme of things, if he can do his job well, this is something I can;t worry about with my rep.
Frankly Weiner should be fired for his sheer stupidity. Most politicians are smart enough to philander discreetly, sending naked pics of yourself to random people you me online is downright dumb for a public figure.
To all prudes,
There are two kinds of married men – the ones who have had a fling outside marriage and the ones who haven’t yet had the opportunity…I said this about Nikky Haley last year when some prudes were shivering with rage,…and will say it now…as long as these escapades – real or alleged – don’t come in the way of their public work (some flunky in Wisc.) or run foul of the law, (John Ensign and The Family) or aren’t covered up in veneers of hypocrisy, (Newt Gingrich) it is no one’s floody bucking business.
nanu, nanu. 😉 guess some people will keep admiring his “moral courage”…
It’s not, ask what the police racial profiles of various ethnic groups are and then get back to me.
This is relevant to country clubs… how? When did you mention racial profiling by police in this discussion?
I am not faulting you or even ascribing ulterior motives here, because people genuinely do fall in love in spite of all things (methinks the need to defend your own personal relationship is blinding you to the fact that my comments are not actually directed towards you. you are conflating your life choice–which I imagine from your defensiveness was sincere– with the life choice that some people make that is not sincere or genuine).
All I can say to this is: huh? What exactly is it that you think you know about me?
You asked for documentation and a bibliography–both are there if you care to read rather than obfuscate. Please stop wasting my time.
You gave one link, which in turn cites some books and articles along with data about rates of racially endogamous marriage. Seriously, if you can point out what in that link provides empirical evidence for your statements about women of color’s out-marrying for the purpose of higher socioeconomic status, I will concede that I failed to read and that you have indeed done what I requested.
“All I can say to this is: huh? What exactly is it that you think you know about me?”
You keep posting as PG, which I understood to be the old Pardesi Gori. Since you apparently are not, based on your last post, then I have even less patience for your pointless posturing about interracial couples. If you could comprehend the english language without much difficulty, you would see that I have not condemned interracial couples anywhere.
What I did say was that people who blanket demonize the opposite gender of their own to rationalize ulterior motives in the pursuit of select relationships are condemnable. This is something that, anecdata or not, does and has happened to indian american males on rare but notable occasions. Even if someone prefers their own or another ethnicity, they still have an obligation to treat other people as human beings and politely brush them off, rather than stare contemptuously as though they were observing an anthropology exhibit or declare outright in condescension that they don’t date men of their culture. Apparently you don’t believe in etiquette or manners; otherwise, you’d see the logic of that. You however posted this in an attempt to grandstand:
“My position has been that since I don’t claim to know what’s going on with every desi, or even most desis, I’m not going to go around insulting people by claiming to know what motivates their love lives (even though, if I went by “what my [particular race] friends tell me,” I could say nasty things about men and women of every race). I figure the desi men I know who have married white women fell in love, and the desi women who married white men did the same, and I wish them all the best in negotiating the additional difficulties attendant upon marrying someone who may have been raised with different cultural norms”
as well as injected Rep. Weiner’s Jewish heritage rather ridiculously into a discussion with me that you started:
“Also, Jews historically were NOT treated as white, and I hope you have better sense than to play Oppression Olympics with that particular race/religion, because you’re going to lose badly.”
Yes, because I was so dying to play Oppression Olympics. The Dotbusters louge is actually my favorite event…Sochi 2014?
So you see my dear, you can understand why I might find this a rather tiresome and ridiculous exercise.
Regarding everything else:
All you need has already been provided above. Not terribly concerned with validation from you–especially given your inability to internalize what my initial posts were actually about or provide counterevidence for that matter. Unless you have some new discussion points for an already pointless discussion, I believe our time is up. Good day.