Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally†make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping†to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience†or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
If it was already mentioned and defined earlier, I apologize, but what is 3HO?
:If it was already mentioned and defined earlier, I apologize, but what is 3HO?
Anna There are plenty of sects among sikhism.The sect of Yogi bhajan who spread sikhism among americans are called 3ho.It means Health,happiness,holiness.You can visit their site http://www.sikhnet.com which is most popular sikh site.
3H0, is usually uttered by a jolly guy with a flowing white beard, and what some might call an unorthodox red turban. he is enormously popular, especially around this time of year. An especial favorite among the MILF set. Now, though, he has been advised to changes the 3HO greeting to 3HA.
happy holidays, sepia!
That sounded ominous Camille–what are the financial and lifestyle requirements that ‘mainstream’ Sikhs would not condone?
I must say I did spend a few hours last night going through pictures on the mrsikhnet.com site and it was more than a little reminiscent of my own ashram upbringing.
Thanks, Dp! 🙂
And thank you, Portmanteau, for such a wickedly clever comeback. If you didn’t love paneer dosas, I’d totally hit on you. Then we could convert to Sikhism and answer Fuerza Dulce’s request for LGBT Sikhs! I love it when a plan comes together. 😉
camille, is drinking tea and eating cereal part of the requirements?
ill pay good money to watch…
Puli, m’darling, you’re lucky I know you and lowe you or I’d virtually beat your kundi for typing that. Believe it or not, women often love other women with no thought to male enjoyment of such pairings. It’s shocking, but true. In fact, the entire point of this nonsensical suggestion was to make Fuerza Dulce happy– and she’s a girl. 😉
i think this is what they call a “positive externality” in economics class. they are doing it for their enjoyment. and an urelated third party (namely me) gets a benefit. i love economics…
“KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI! KUNDI!”
thank you all..
puli, wouldn’t you wanna join? i don’t like free riders. but once you join, there can be all sorts of riding for free.
err…maybe i should spend more times at SM meetups
Amit, murali, I’m not trying to be ominous. “3HO Sikhs” are not considered Sikhs by the mainstream (just as “sects” are not recognized within the “mainstream” Sikh community, for lack of a better term). In terms of lifestyle requirements, there are much more strict requirements on diet (strict veg.), hours of sleep one may have per night, participation in specific forms of meditation and yoga (which, in the way practiced by 3HO is not considered to be compliant with Sikhi), and active participation in 3HO retreats, schools, ashrams, etc. In terms of financial requirements, daswand is paid to 3HO, business ventures via 3HO are promoted, and bankrolling 3HO industries has been a request. It is not a “hyper strict” form of Sikhi, but rather a conflation of many “eastern” faith traditions repackaged and misrepresented as Sikhi.
DP, we are discussing the difficulty that kesdari Sikh men in the U.S. have in finding a kesdari mate, particularly one who is supportive of her man’s decision to keep his hair and adhere to a Sikh lifestyle. I am not saying that the issue does not exist, nor that women are without any blame, but I do take issue with the idea that women are uninterested in their faith or are promoting the demise of the Sikh turban. Comparing level of activity on an online message board without looking at how Sikh women are treated as children and as they grow older — again, in the U.S. — is not a fair or accurate metric, imo.
Camillie 3ho are as much sikh as followers of akhand kirtani jatha,nanaksar and other sant baba sikh sects who consider guru granth sahib as their guru
and most of the turbaned sikhs which rant about not finding mate’s visit sikh site’s are either from usa,uk,canada.infact most of the members of sikh sites are from these countries.Also from sikh sites it looks like that gap between sikh men and women is widening as The way sikh men write comments about punjabi sikh women.God knows what is the truth
Camille, my comment was an effort at levity, and not to imply that you were sounding ominous. 🙂 I only know a little bit about Y. Bhajan, but have had yogi tea and peace cereals before, hence the connection.
I love that I have enough love on this blog to get women to think about conversion of religion and sexual lifestyles.
I don’t know exactly which message boards you mean, but from the ones I’ve seen, they’re all full of “jatt pride” or something similar. Maybe Sikh women are just too smart to participate in that nonsense =)
Cross that. We’re definitely too smart.
:I don’t know exactly which message boards you mean, but from the ones I’ve seen, they’re all full of “jatt pride” or something similar. Maybe Sikh women are just too smart to participate in that nonsense =)
Cross that. We’re definitely too smart:
I am talking about http://www.sikhphilosophy.net,sikhnet.com and sikhawareness.com These are most popular sikh sites.And i am moderator of 1 of them so my duty is that smooth discussion should take place And there is no such thing as jatt pride on these sites.
As far smartness is concerned most of the sikh women who visit sikh sites are very less knowledgable in sikhism.The only women who gave me hard time in discussions are white american sikh women.
414 · Dp said:
I agree, except I’d add Jews, Muslims, Catholics and Prostestants to that list, also.
:I agree, except I’d add Jews, Muslims, Catholics and Prostestants to that list, also.
Why you people are so much anti 3ho There are plenty of sikh sects which have their own code of conduct and were started by any sant.3ho’s don’t have their own code of conduct they follow Akal takhat’s code of conduct on the hand many sikh sects have their own code of conduct which are even contradictory to akal takhat maryada. They are part of sikhism although some of their practices are not according to sikhism
Anna may i ask you a question if you don’t mind.What make you think that this person is unmarried because of its turban and beard he is unmarried.from the point of view of indian let me tell you that the position of Nri man is no less than god.He can marry any girl in india even the non sikh one.so there must be some another reason.
Also anna if sikh girls are rejecting sikh men solely because of turban and beard then it means they are quite childish .Let me give you example Bollywood show’s indian girl’s as sizzling beauties but the reality is majority of indian girls are ordinary looking.Many boys dream that one day they will get wives like bollywood heroine’s only to realise that it is just a dream.Similarly many girl’s dream their future husbands would look like bollywood hero’ but again the reality is that indian man is not like bollywood hero’s.So in the end all indian’s have to compromise and that mainly on looks.
Now apart from being clean shaven the sikh women you mentioned would also want Highly educated,highearning,respectful,confident tall handsome etc.Now do you think that each and every sikhwomen will get his future husband’s with all the qualities she want’s.If indian’s will start giving so much imporatance to looks then majority of indian’s have no chance of getting married.
They give plenty of importance to looks. Whether their expecations are realistic or not is a totally different issue.
:They give plenty of importance to looks. Whether their expecations are realistic or not is a totally different issue.
Yes rich society give’s but middle class and not so rich does not.o.k tell me there are communities in india which are quite dark skinned,short height Now what chance these men have finding a wife on the basis of their looks?
Tread carefully- what you seem to be saying is that people who are “dark skinned, short” are not attractive. That’s offensive and unwelcome. There are “dark skinned and short” people in every “community” in India, whether Punjabi or Telugu.
DP, you are welcome to your opinion, however incoherent it may be. Over several generations of jathedars the decision from Akal Takht is that 3HO are not Sikhs, and the additional requirements imposed by Yogi Bhajan occasionally contravene and certainly go far beyond the requirements of Sikhi as set forth in both baani and the Rehit. As I said previously, this is not a derogation or slander of their traditions or identity — it is simply a delineation.
With respect to your comments on “unknowledgeable” Punjabi Sikh women in the U.S., I invite you to a conversation with any of the Punjabi Sikh women on this site, and more importantly, with any of the Sikh women in U.S. sangats across the country. I second Sonia’s statement — women may choose not to participate in the sites you deem “most popular” for reasons beyond your assumption (that they know nothing of the faith and are uninterested).
Sikhs discussing sects, sex and sexism in Sikhs and Sikhism? Splitters!
Sikh and Indian men in general have a turbulent history. First by muslim invaders, second by britishers, third racism post 9/11, now discrimination by their own women in the name of liberation. WOW. Arent, we so screwed??
Word, Camille. I’ve been active on, and lurked, various Sikh sites and message boards over the years. There are those who know much more than me about Sikhism, but I’m confident that I know enough to engage in an intellectual discussion with people who have studied Sikhism on all ends of the spectrum. As a Sikh woman, personally, I left many of these sites because I found it difficult to engage in any actual dialogue. There is usually a main viewpoint, and those presenting any deviation from it usually meet with ignorance, rather than any desire to understand or learn about another opinions. I can mention at least three such forums off the top of my head, and I especially have noted such attitudes on issues regarding Sikh women. I haven’t left these sites or decided not to participate because I don’t know anything, as DP might assume.
portmanteau #403, I’ll put down your chimney for a visit whether you’ve been naughty or nice. Although I don’t appreciate your taking my man puli for a ride. There is no such thing as free love, er, lunch.
b>particularly young girls, are ACTIVELY discouraged from doing anything that might threaten the male ego of young Sikh boys.
This comment and a few other of talked about the ego of sikh men. The problem is nothing to do with sikhism, it punjabi male culture thing. Most punjabi males have big ego’s,and among the jatt’s at 99.9% with me being the only punjabi male of jatt background not having a big ego.
rahul, while no chamathu ponnu, sometimes i’m good. it has been said, though, that when i’m bad, i’m even better. and as far as puli goes, my penchant for krishna-complexioned iyers is well-documented. and i have reason to believe that said group might include you as well. and as far as free rides go, kanna, there is only one thing left to say.so, please, hurry down the chimney tonight! and as far as free meals go, i’ll have some of this waiting for you by the tree. perhaps, even a glass of,
ho-licks(oops!) horlicks. question is, how far can you go?394 Camille:
:I can only speak for my own sangat and my own experience, but women, particularly young girls, are ACTIVELY discouraged from doing anything that might threaten the male ego of young Sikh boys. This extends from being discouraged not to participate in kirtan, to being told not to excel in Sikh studies, to refusing to teach women the tabla, to disallowing women from public speaking events on behalf of the community…
That is so sad that you have been involved in these sangats. As a Sikh Woman from the west coast, and having spent time in b.c. and quite a few different california sangats, i have seen nothing which reflects the above comments. I have been asked to speak on many occassions at the gurudwara’s, particulary post 9/11. Many gurudwaras I go to have women reading the Siri Guru Granth Sahib. You say a few lines later, that this is not the case everywhere you have been, but by and far it certainly seems to reflect your experience if you’re considering leaving the sangat. I am just curious to know where these places are.
Also, not sure if it was clarified somewhere in this post, but Yogi Bhajan has never claimed to be a guru. Whether his followers choose to elevate him, is another story, but he himself considered the final guru, the SGGS.
there are many individuals and organizations that extol the virtues and strenghts of sikh women and the religion itslef considers men and women equal. I am aware this is not always practiced, but the tenets of sikhism, give women equal footing. the religion can not be blamed for how some people choose to distort that.
the 10th teacher of sikhism, bestowed the surname of kaur on all women as her own name…and said that she did not belong to her father or her husband, and nor did she need to use any last name but that one. based on the power of kaur and a sikh woman’s standing, many women’s organizations have been started which remind sikh women of the lineage from which they come, which is one of being a warrior right along side sikh men.
I have to admit that as an exception to my facial hair-abhorring rule I find turbaned, bearded Sikh men quite attractive. Of course me and my South Indian, atheist, Dutch ass don’t stand a chance but I thought I’d boost the morale of some folks here…though I have nothing else of interest to add.
db, I grew up in the SF Bay Area. Actually, most of the “supportive” sangats I’ve met are all in the midwest. The biggest contradiction to my statements (in the Bay, at the time I was a kid) was the Fremont gurdwara’s sangat (i.e., they are generally supportive, they try hard to include women’s participation, programming, and empowerment, etc.). I’m sure things have changed since then, but — outside of my family — I definitely did not grow up in an atmosphere where kesdari girls were as valued or supported as kesdari boys. I know that I’m speaking largely to my own experience, but I’ve also seen this theme reoccur among many of the kesdari girls in my sangat who have since grown up — many have also since left the faith.
I know that Sikhi is, in principle, fundamentally egalitarian. I also understand that that takes work and that the rhetoric and reality do not always match, and that that is not the “fault” of the faith. There are great and growing Sikh women’s organizations. I know that I will be relieved, however, when “mainstream” Sikh organizations and leadership also diversify on the basis of gender.
At any rate, I wasn’t trying to derail the thread. I just wanted to highlight that sangats vary, and that it is inaccurate to assume that women are ignorant, uninterested, or driving the demise of the faith.
Fuerza, thanks — I have the same reaction to many of the ‘well known” Sikh message boards.
With such generous offers of food and rides, I guess you better watch out, Santa Claus is coming to town. And he does go to the ends of the earth, you know.
Don’t know about the ends of the earth, but according to the opening scenes of that video, he does travel south and is capable of ringing some(one’s) bells.
:Tread carefully- what you seem to be saying is that people who are “dark skinned, short” are not attractive. That’s offensive and unwelcome. There are “dark skinned and short” people in every “community” in India, whether Punjabi or Telugu.
Sorry If truth is offensive to you then I can’t do anything. It is a well known fact that women like tall men. Even recent researches are proving it. As far dark skin is concern just check The sales figure’s of fairness products in India . indians are obessed with fair skin and it’s a fact.Advertisement of boys rejecting girls because of dark skin or vice versa are very popular in TV to promote fairness products.
Fuerza by painting all sikh sites with single color you have already proved my point.Sikhism is divided in sects and each and every site is funded by by some source to promote their agenda .for example sikhnet funded by 3ho, sikhsangat.com to promote khalistani agenda etc its upto you which site you find most appropriate for yourself because if start writing your points on a sikh site which is against their thinking then chances are discussion is going to be bitter . I too left many sikh sites because they were not for me. So please stop giving excuses like this.Also fairly recently I was quite active on Punjabi discussion forums and I have seen that in the gossip section Punjabi sikh girls were quite active . But in community issue’s and spiritual discussions there ratio is too low.
:Camillie wrote DP, you are welcome to your opinion, however incoherent it may be. Over several generations of jathedars the decision from Akal Takht is that 3HO are not Sikhs, and the additional requirements imposed by Yogi Bhajan occasionally contravene and certainly go far beyond the requirements of Sikhi as set forth in both baani and the Rehit
Please don’t give example of jathedara’s , or akal takht. Majority of Sikhs start jumping when akal takht issue something which is in favour of their thinking but when same akal takht issue which is against their thinking than they start giving hundred type’s of argument’s.
I second Sonia’s statement — women may choose not to participate in the sites you deem “most popular” for reasons beyond your assumption (that they know nothing of the faith and are uninterested).
Yes its beyond my assumption that converted sikh women participate on sikh site’s quite regularly despite their population is too small but Punjabi women give hundred type’s Of excuses not to participate.also when I am saying that Punjabi sikh women do not participate then it does not mean that their are no Punjabi sikh women on sikh sites but the ratio is like 80:20 men women.
Cammille and fuerza why can’t you simply accept that majority of Punjabi sikh women are not interested in discussing community issue’s or gurbani’ discussion’s.
:At any rate, I wasn’t trying to derail the thread. I just wanted to highlight that sangats vary, and that it is inaccurate to assume that women are ignorant, uninterested, or driving the demise of the faith.
Plenty of sikh men which i met on site’s from different part’s of word’s clearly said That said ratio of practising sikh men is much higher than women.May be all of them are out of their mind
Dp, clearly Bhai Vir Singh’s incorporation of strong female characters in all his novels, the Guru’s incorporation of females in amrit sanchar and role models like Mai Bhago and Mata Khiwi ji reflect that Sikhism will only be strong if both genders are equally empowered. Perhaps it’s better for you not to claim that the women portion of our global sangat it weak and rather realize that all people are members of your sangat. Time is better spent lifting them up and teaching them about Guru’s bani and sakhis, not bringing them down.
:Dp, clearly Bhai Vir Singh’s incorporation of strong female characters in all his novels, the Guru’s incorporation of females in amrit sanchar and role models like Mai Bhago and Mata Khiwi ji reflect that Sikhism will only be strong if both genders are equally empowered. Perhaps it’s better for you not to claim that the women portion of our global sangat it weak and rather realize that all people are members of your sangat. Time is better spent lifting them up and teaching them about Guru’s bani and sakhis, not bringing them down.
Well sona you are completely misinterpretting my posts.where i said that women should not be empowered.I agree with you that both gender’s should equally participate.
yet women aren’t interested in participating in community issues or bani? those are you words, sir. perhaps it’s because they are not encouraged to do so like boys are? as a woman with a pugh, i can tell you how much the sikh community tells women to step back and stay quiet, based on my personal experience!
Dp – I really think you’re getting out of control with your comments and your assumptions. You’re basically saying that there are very few practicing Sikh woman who are interested in the Sikh community simply based on the fact that they do not participate heavily in message boards. Are you really going to believe that statement? Why not visit Gurdwaras or Khalsa Schools around the U.S. and see how many women there are? The Khalsa School in San Jose, CA is a great example – over 500 students and I’m sure most are girls – and most teachers are women. I know when I attended, the girls lasted much longer, while the boys started dropping out and showing little interest as they entered their teens. Women at that Gurdwara have started more groups and Sikh initiatives than men have – yet I doubt any of these women are posting on message boards. I understand that you moderate a board so it’s a big part of your life – but it’s not a big part of EVERYONE’s life. Don’t judge Sikh women by something so trivial … you’re really underestimated how involved we are in the Sikh community.
Well sonia you too are misinterpretting my posts.If there are so many practising sikh women then why this issue of turabaned sikh men not finding sikhwives are coming again and again.Moreover sonia there is special blogspot on this issue is created with 100s of comments from sardar’s all over the world with shocking stories.Also sonia sikh women marrying outside their faith is well known issue all over the world.The worst thing is that after marrying outside they give up their religion and raise their children with husband’s faith When i read this issue on non sikh site i was almost shocked. Why such discussion is taking place on site which has nothing to do with sikhism or religion. also I already told here that i don’t live in US.
And if you are participating then i congratulate you for this.keep it up we need more women like you in sikhism
This is interesting – why do you think this is? Did the parents ever put more pressure on the girls to attend than they did on the boys? This is true in my experience too (of Hindus), but I thought it would actually be less true of Sikhs, as that’s what I’ve seen around me too.
Which plays into that old nationalist narrative of women internally cultivating the foundational cultural pearls of a nascent nation.
Wow. Really? I can count off plenty of Sikh men I know who have married outside their faith and decided not to carry on their religion with their kids. Is that not a “well known issue all over the world?” And as many women have mentioned on this thread, it’s just not Sikh turbaned men who have problems finding partners – plenty of women face issues as well. I think your comments are just a bit too sexist – maybe our backgrounds are just too different for us to have a decent conversation.
:yet women aren’t interested in participating in community issues or bani? those are you words, sir. perhaps it’s because they are not encouraged to do so like boys are? as a woman with a pugh, i can tell you how much the sikh community tells women to step back and stay quiet, based on my personal experience!
Dear sona
There was a time when women were not encouraged for education but today .They are highly educated .Then they were not encouraged to work outside home but at present they are working.Then why it is an excuse for religion.As far as personal experiance’s are concerned they are different for every person.For example i grew up in orthodox sikh joint family and i have seen such high participation of older sikh women in religion.but no such enthusiasm is seen in present generation of sikh girls.
My opinion is based on personal experiance,and different opinion of sikhs which i heard from all over the world through online.