Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally†make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping†to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience†or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
I don’t know if anybody has talked about this. But don’t really religous sikh women are not allowed to remove hair from there body. Will this not turn alot of men off.
Clueless that was something I was referring to in one of my earlier comments (I think in the mid-50’s). We support our Sikh brothers not cutting their hair, but they are less cool with the Sikh women refraining from cutting any hair.
I used to not remove any hair. (Things have changed since then.) Interestingly, I received not one complaint from non-Sikh men and was actually met with understanding and respect (and they had no problem being “comfortable” with me). If I had anyone be uncomfortable with it, it was Sikh men, or people from my own community. They were the ones who didn’t “get” it.
I recommend this book over this one. Ironic, considering the authors and their “assets.”
I should really start writing this paper that’s due in two hours…You people are ruining my life.
Fuerza Dulce, I have to say, I’ve really appreciated your additions to this thread. 🙂
I often talk about how I went to a “very Sikh” university but I never noticed what you’ve pointed out about respect NOT going both ways. While my gfs were cheering on those in our group who had kept their hair and beards, our guy friends never reciprocated. One of my friends had never cut her hair, touched alcohol or even kissed a guy (!), she was so devout, but she felt so guilty about “selling out” because she finally shaved her legs– despite being an athlete who had to wear a tiny bit of spandex which would leave nothing to the imagination. With her uber-fair skin and her black hair, it would’ve been very visible if she hadn’t decided to “sell-out”…and you’re right, no one would’ve given her props for keeping it real.
I totally forgot about that entire incident, until your last comment. 🙁
So can muff diving be solely relied upon to bring a woman to orgasm? Again and again? Or something more substantial will eventually be craved? Or is it strictly foreplay?
I’d have excused Moor Nam’s calling undocumented Hispanic immigrants ‘ useless riffraff ‘ on an earlier thread if it were merely heartless. He is plain wrong on that one and It’ll be hard for me to take him seriously again. In the past though, I might not have disagreed with him as much as many here do.
If you have to ask, buddy…not that you’ll never know, but try it sometime and see what happens. Invest in a neck-brace in the meantime.
I don’t think any one thing should ever be solely relied upon. It also depends on the woman – we all have bodies that respond differently to different things. But diving is a great part of the equation, regardless!
Anecdotally, could someone give a guesstimate (Camille?) on roughly what percentage of Sikh Jatts would have kept their kesh intact (hair uncut) back in the 1940s, before Partition? Would it have been close to 100% (as I suspect)? I ask because Jatts seem to be leading the way in cutting their hair and shaving, and I’ve heard some people opine (haven’t seen any studies though) that less than 15% of the current young generation of Jatts keeps their kesh.
Reading this thread–and then comment 350–makes me glad to be a lurker again.
I understand what you’re saying. Feel free to define it however you want, I feel like we’re saying the same thing but just using different terminology. It’s just that in my experience people tend to use those words more in a sense of ‘who we accept vs. who we don’t accept.’ And when people back home ask me something like, ‘Do you like America better or do you like India better?’ I just feel like it simplifies my experiences. And I guess part of my aversion to it has to do with people assuming they know everything about me simply because I take more than a passing interest in classical dance and religion, i.e. I must be controlled by my parents, I must be so traditional, etc. (hee, if they only knew)
Though I concur with Rahul, I’d also be shocked if someone told me they had an amazing chicken sandwich, in my experience such a thing doesn’t exist. (Though I wouldn’t define aversion to that as an Indian thing, more like a vegetarian thing, then again I come from a meat-eating family) And the guy who expressed concern about your family’s “loose standards” sounds like a total lame-o. I think while to a certain extent you are marrying into a family when you marry a person, I think it’s ridiculous to let something like that overpower affection to the actual person in front of you.
Well, know this – something like 70% of women don’t (can’t?) orgasm from vaginal stimulation/intercourse only.
Amitabh, I actually have no clue. I know a lot of Sikhs cut their hair around the “heat” of independence if they knew they were going to engage in “un-Sikh-like” activity, but I don’t know what this meant in terms of numbers. I can ask my nanaji for his anecdotal input, if you like.
Camille, it’s just my impression that in the older generation (I’m talking grandparent-types here) you find kesh/turbans to be the norm, with few exceptions…it was very much something that ‘everyone’ did.. whereas in the current young crowd, cut-hair is the norm, with of course many exceptions.
Moornam, our society has long awaited an anti Mark Twain to, er, lay bare, before it the truths it is unwilling to face. I myself have, for long, espoused this same principle, especially focusing on the stifling impact that clothes have on relationships between the genders. How much could she learn if I relished her paneer if she could actually see that my layer of belly fat only did a satiated roll, like that of a seal settling for a peaceful summer night’s sleep on the beaches of La Jolla, rather than the tortured tossing around in graves that I imagine the collective bodies of all logicians must be enduring thanks to the tenuous threads of your “arguments”? How clearly she could infer whether I like her “dress” if she could always know without ever having to ask if I was “just happy to see her”!
I have a dream. A dream that my children will live in a world where men will be judged not by the color of their clothing, but by the emotional content of their skin.
I have another dream, nay, a fevered hope, even supplication. That the words “thinks” and “cerebral” are never associated with my comments from this day on (not that I have ever given cause for that before, even with the traditionally accepted meanings of those terms).
Puli, as your (admittedly inconsistent) wingman, I have to warn you that statements like these are not helping your game any. I suggest some prompt unleashing of one liners and tantalizing hints about skeletons in your closet (even if you have to source them from Calcutta).
Anna, what about this page? Or our SM profiles (those of us who have something on them, that is)? BTW I think the irreverent Tam commenter you forgot might be Dravidian Lurker, who after he came out of lurking should probably be called DLurker.
Getting back on topic…
One of the things that has interested me personally (being bearded myself) in this topic is how much of the perceived do-not-want is specifically directed against practising Sikhs, and how much against facial hair in general. Many years ago, when I first grew a beard, everyone had two questions:
Why?
Till when?
There was the free no-charge gratis advice offered by concerned relatives generally on the lines of “You will look like an X”, where X has been “Thulukan”, “bear cub”, “Devdas”, “beggar”, “homeless person”, and other generally helpful comments. I have been bearded more often than not over the years, and the free advice has dwindled over the years, but I have no doubts about the impact of facial hair on others’ image of you.
Not to mention its impact on others’ boobs.
Don’t worry, they’ll be back – wall Street loves them.
(Of course, from what I’ve learnt on Sepia, that means the gold digging women shouldn’t be far behind either).
Sigh. Even scientists of all people are going off beards . Though hair seems to be popular as ever.
This post didn’t surprise me. We live in times when everyone is having to assimilate to Western standards. So I guess it does make sense that some Sikh women would want a shaved man.
But I have to chime in and say that I’ve always found Sikh guys with beards and turbans attractive. (Though, I’m not Sikh…)
From a Sikh man’s perspective, this is actually a GREAT screen. The worthless ones weed themselves out automatically. Better to marry a good woman who wasn’t born in a Sikh family, than to suffer with a chickenhead who REJECTS the Sikh identity.
There are MILLIONS of loving, supportive women available to any worthy man, including Sikh men who actually look the Sikh part.
It really is that simple. 🙂
Sorry for being so off topic, but a comment about bookstores earlier got stuck in my mind and then it happened to me.
It was about meeting people in bookstores and someone said something about the only Indian people you meet in bookstores are those damn Quickstar Indians. Well, one of those just apporched me and man was it torture!!
Someone at SepiaMutiny should write a post about these Indians. Every damn bookstore I go to, there they are asking me if Im from India and if I want to make some money.
Who are these people and why are they always Indian?
This post didn’t surprise me. We live in times when everyone is having to assimilate to Western standards.
Or shall we say, All American
It is quite quixotic that the discussion I referred to in my earlier comment was in Geological Sciences Department, where typically white geologists are full bearded, because of skin protection, and logistics of extended field work. That is why we even discussed, because everyone (male) in the field tends to grow a beard.
That discussion must have happened in 1994 or so, long before 9/ 11, and we remember talking of how cold war (ruskies had beard and all), all american football player mythification, mercury-apollo astronauts (since all of them were military test pilots, and clean shaven – the right stuff), america emerging as a super power (hence a marine look becoming and ideal – and, hippie look becames a protest statement in vietnam era) has contributed to clean cut style more common compared to other places in the world.
Chetna on December 3, 2007 06:18 PM · Direct link
Very interesting topic. Please note that I do not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings. I am all for standing out in the crowd but not on the basis of religion. What has hair anything to do with religion? I am Hindu, so if I don’t put bindi on my forehead, do I become muslim? The original reason for Sikhs keeping turban is totally outdated in today’s world. Won’t you agree? Are you telling me that if a Sikh man shaves off his hair then he will no more be a Sikh??? I don’t think Sikh religion is so shallow. I have lot of Punjabi friends and have been to Langar couple of times. I have lot of respect for Sikh religion. Sikh religion is not just turban and beard.
These would be good questions if theyr weren’t accompanied by shallow judgments borne of ignorance.
If you seriously want to fidn out the answers, put some effort into learning Sikh religion & its history.
Otherwise atleast realize your conclusions are pretty dumb. No offense, I’m just telling you the truth.
Sorry for being so off topic, but a comment about bookstores earlier got stuck in my mind and then it happened to me.
It’s Amway dude and it’s often guys brought over by a certain subset of unscrupulous H1 bodyshoppers who have to supplement their income somehow. They are then taken advantage by other Amway members who sense their desperation. Either that or they trying to “turn you out”
Does anyone perceive a difference in datableness between being an observant Sikh, having long hair, having a turban, and being bearded?
Nope. Women want MEN. Looking the Sikh part only helps. Of course, if that’s all you have, then the problem isn’t really the hair & turban.
If anything it helps stand out from the crowd and gets you the attention a LOT easier.
Quixtar? Amway?? SOMEONE SHOULD WRITE A POST???
Lo, it was done in 2005. 😉
Poor ShallowThinker. I know exactly how you feel. 😀
Kush Tandon,
Interesting! I didn’t know that….
Bulaka Singh,
YEP! Exactly!
Finally! Someone gets it!
haha. other random pros and cons [pro] it’s good fun pulling out the mini stalactites when snow or rain freezes on the beard. [con] it’s nasty to have food crumbs or ketchup on the mo if eating something messy like a burger. [con] weird hairs grow strangely and tickle the nose making you feel like there’s bugs crawling around. [pro] you dine in hell
clean cut style more common compared
in amreeka, clean cuts also means…………
…….that why Dennis the Menace, and Gordon Cooper are idealized since 1950s
Nobody has said anything about this. But there are some sikh’s who are of other races. Do these sikh’s have anymore luck with getting a partner.
Nala…Quote #360: “Well, know this – something like 70% of women don’t (can’t?) orgasm from vaginal stimulation/intercourse only.”
Depends on the position….Woman on top will guarantee a sexual climax.
Bulaka Singh…Quote #374: “Women want MEN.”
Not if you’re a dyke!
That was hilarious and sad at the same time. I never have the balls to tell these people off before they get started. I always just let them go through there whole act, then tell them that Im to busy.
It’s not guaranteed, but it’s hard to mess that up. Unfortunately, some people still do. :*(
Puli, I have said this before, come out with me one night and i shall show you the term “panty dropper” come alive. Fuerza is in a freaky mode recently judging from all the comments. oh and hi Sona!!
clueless, from what i know of the anglo american sikh population, not that much, as they tend to be very well networked and supportive of each other. i know a couple of folks from that circle, and they seem to be pretty happy in that regard =).
hi jeet ;). i’ll have to agree with fuerza’s comments. they may be freaky, but they are also true!
No, no, Jeetay – just in a frank one. 🙂
Although some women want women 🙂 Just saying, gotta look out for our kesdari queer brothers and sisters out there.
Clueless, I’ve been under the impression that Sikhs of other backgrounds (in the U.S., largely white Sikhs) tend to group together and be supportive of one another, both in terms of marital prospects and otherwise. I think part of this is fueled by the large number of white Sikhs who are “yogi Bhajan Sikhs,” and thus not considered to be adherents of Sikhi as outlined in the Rehit Maryada, which could understandably lead to differences of opinion in the practice and study of the faith.
Camille – Are all yogi Bhajan Sikhs violating the Rehat Maryada? I highly, highly doubt that. If you look basic tenants in the definition of a Sikh in the Rehat, they fall pretty much in line. Most of them take amrit, which is incorporated in those rules too. Can you elaborate? I’m very curious.
here’s an example of the Southall (UK) variety. Should one be offended in any way by the shirt?
He’s actually from the USA, visiting the UK. See mrsikhnet.com for more about him.
Say word. And some women want both. 🙂
I’d love to hear from kesdari lgbt brothers and sisters. Any frequent SM?
I’ve been through Espanola once–saw maybe 10-15 incredible low-riders cruising around, got hustled for gas-money by a low-rider owner and then went to Taos. It’s certainly a beautiful place but I had no idea that a Sikh community existed there as well.
Dear anna this is the first time i read your blog
I am moderator of famous sikh site and let me tell you that this issue is frequently discussed at the site .I think the main reason is that punjabi sikh women are not much in religion.Infact some days ago we were discussing that why punjabi sikh females don’t contribuite to sikh sites because our site is full of punjabi sikh men and white sikh women(not the 3ho one) These white sikh women are very knowledgeable in sikhism and quite orthodox.
This is patently untrue, and further, Punjabi Sikh women are often actively silenced and discouraged from participation within the religion. If you look at (large, American) sangats with youth programs, you’ll find that enrollment is fairly even, if not majority female. Young girls participate in kirtan, they lead services, and they do well in their studies.
I can only speak for my own sangat and my own experience, but women, particularly young girls, are ACTIVELY discouraged from doing anything that might threaten the male ego of young Sikh boys. This extends from being discouraged not to participate in kirtan, to being told not to excel in Sikh studies, to refusing to teach women the tabla, to disallowing women from public speaking events on behalf of the community, to treating women like perpetual children, to refusing to let women participate in gurdwara leadership or services, to simply refusing to speak to women at all, let alone on equal terms — particularly if they don’t “keep to their place.” I have heard, and seen firsthand, how men are threatened by kesdari women, and it is often ugly and un-Sikh.
Again, my comments are limited to my own experiences in a few sangats — I have certainly been involved in sangats that were inspiring and do not conform to any of the issues listed above (e.g., I’m always happy to be around the Dayton sangat). That said, I am TIRED of hearing “well, Sikh women are the problem” as the answer for any failure of the Sikh faith community. Men are not keeping their kes? Sikh moms must be too lazy or too unconcerned. Sikh men cannot find kesdari wives? Sikh women don’t like kesdari Sikh men. Maybe Sikh women leave the faith because of the gross sexism of individuals within sangats — I know that I’ve spent many nights thinking seriously about just that.
Sona, I would argue that yes, if they identify as “3HO” or “Yogi Bhajan” Sikhs, they are. As a disclaimer — nothing that I am about to say is intended to degrade or malign 3HO Sikhs. If it does, then I apologize and am happy to be corrected.
It’s telling that 3HO Sikhs, self-identify as a different kind of Sikhi. Further, Yogi Bhajan is not one of the Gurus, and such a claim in and of itself contradicts how the religion is laid out. His version of Sikhi has many more requirements, financial and lifestyle-wise, that he passes on to his adherents. Many of these are not sanctioned in Sikhi, and some might be considered to contravene the underlying principles of the Sikh faith. There are understandable differences in understanding and practice between Yogi Bhajan Sikhs and “mainstream” Sikhs.
i’m not sure i would define it as picky, so much as particular (for sikhs and others alike). i don’t see anything wrong with waiting it out for just the right kind of person (i’ve been called picky by way too many people) and in the end, one cannot help the fact that the people one meets do not fit certain crietria.
one of my best guy friends is finally getting married – and he had very specific qualities that he expected out of his mate : family-oriented, ambitious in career, fluently gujarati-speaking, moderately religious, and, yes, ridiculously hot (even though he is not :)); of these, the gujarati factor was always the deal-breaker with most girls. but in many ways, i think many of the standards he set were modified somewhat becaus of his gf’s personality – and not to say that this is right or wrong, but just realistic -he realised that some of the standards were not as important as he had thought, or rather, he still got what he wanted, but in a different form than he had expected.
but the question is..is she ‘ridiculously h*t?’
no
: That said, I am TIRED of hearing “well, Sikh women are the problem” as the answer for any failure of the Sikh faith community. Men are not keeping their kes? Sikh moms must be too lazy or too unconcerned. Sikh men cannot find kesdari wives? Sikh women don’t like kesdari Sikh men. Maybe Sikh women leave the faith because of the gross sexism of individuals within sangats — I know that I’ve spent many nights thinking seriously about just that.:
camilie I am not from america.I am from india and there is no such thing that sikh girls are discouraged from kirtan In fact its honourable for family if sikh girls participate in kirtan.Also i am too tired of reading subject of turbaned sikh men not able to find wife on net.Since i started surfing internet 2-3 years back this issue is the centre of sikh sites infact there is not even a single sikh site where you don’t find this issue.Depressed sikh men visit sikh site’s and even ask for advice .I was very shocked when i read this issue is now discussed on non sikh blogspot what’s next is this going to be issue in american election.Please remember that without fire there is no smoke.Do think that sikh men which are searching wives are out of their mind to write this issue on sikh site’s again and again
I dont understand this complaining either. Its not their hair girls are rejecting its THEM. Not to toot my horn, but there is only so much punani a man can handle.