Most of the ideas of Neela Banerjee’s recent New York Times article on Indian-American lobbying were actually covered in a blog post by KXB here a couple of weeks ago.
But what caught my eye was the bit about an India Community Center in Milpitas, California:
The India Community Center in Milpitas, Calif., represents the nonsectarian approach many Indian-Americans take to replicating the experience of American Jews. When Anil Godhwani began talking to other Indians in Silicon Valley about opening a center, “more than one person talked to us about making this a Hindu community center — sometimes in very strong terms,†he said. That was never his intention, though he was raised Hindu.
A Silicon Valley millionaire who sold his company to Netscape in the late 1990s, Mr. Godhwani said he and his brother envisioned a place that promoted the variety of Indian culture to Indian-Americans and non-Indians alike. The Godhwanis canvassed other ethnic centers and the Y.M.C.A. But the Jewish Community Center model resonated with them. It celebrated Jewish culture while avoiding the divisiveness of politics and religion. And it welcomed outsiders. The India Community Center occupies a 40,000-square-foot building that offers, among other things, free medical care for the uninsured, Indian language classes and Bollywood-style aerobics but keeps out religious activities. (link)
I would have loved to have something like this growing up — too bad there isn’t anything similar on the east coast.
More generally, I’m not surprised by the opposition Godhwani encountered as he was trying to put this thing together, though I am disappointed. Most people tend to presume that a South Asian community organized around entirely religion is an inevitable fact of nature, but does it have to be that way?
I’m not saying that Mandirs, Gurdwaras, Masjids, and indeed, Churches don’t have their place; they do. There are things our Gurdwara did well when I was growing up in Maryland, but it was pretty poor when it came to producing a sense of community oriented to aspects of life other than religion, which is what a community center like this is trying to do. They were also quite poor (back then) in language instruction — I learned very little Punjabi even after years of Sunday school. And very few non-Sikhs ever came in, even though Gurdwaras are technically supposed to be open to anyone.
There’s also strength in numbers, especially in parts of the country where the South Asian community might be smaller than it is in the Bay Area or New York/New Jersey. An India-, or perhaps even a “Desi” Community Center, could be a place with more critical mass.
I know, I know — I’m being idealistic again.
I am curious about what issues/ themes SMers feel are common across india ( and which which are non-hindu in origin). It certainly is not language, cusine, music, or cinema, architecture, or wildlife. the only thing that comes to mind is Cricket — and I doubt ABDs care two hoots about it.
But are there any common interests that both span across these India/Pak/SL/Bangladesh/Bhutan/Afghanistan/Nepalese and that are also exclusive to all these countries? If not, what sense does talk of a South Asian identity make.
As far as Yoga being secular — sure it is, but only because Hinduism itself is kinda secular. (If Hinduism was a religion,then, by defination, it could never have included Carvaka at any point in time)
“I think most Hindus will say this is clear theft of Hindu intellectual knowledge. Using Hindu knowledge but not giving it its due!! Which is where I have a problem.”
Its the secularization of Hindu culture. Its a way for non-Hindus to adopt Hindu activities while also rejecting Hinduism. The most absurd example is of course “Christian Yoga”.
Another example is here in NYC a Christian Indian suggested that we remove all images of Durga for this years Navratri dances, to make it less exclusionary for non-Hindus. Of course the whole purpose of Navratri is to worship Durga by dancing! It is a religious holiday and its pretty damn presumptuous to demand people essentially give up their worship rites.
There was no word such as nation,democracy or secularism in the subcontinent’s dictionary when yoga was invented. Today it may have become secular with more people discovering that alternative physical excercise is useful.
If non Hindus want to use some traditional Hindu customs, let them do so. If that includes a Hindu practice like yoga, who cares either way. I remember having a Christmas tree as a kid even though I never believed in Christ.
Guys, this is not a thread about whether the western appropriation of Yoga is a form of secularization or theft. The topic is: whether or not an India Community Center is a good idea.
Amardeep
The idea of an India centre is laudable. There should certainly be a meeting ground from all Indians. Having said that, it should also be honest. If you wish to keep religion, by all means do so.
In the Indian context, it is pretty tricky thing to do since Indian culture and religion are deeply intertwined. Nowadays even singing a national song Vande Maataram has given rise to controversies.
Probably some safe areas where one might not trample sensitive toes might be — health, language, entertainment, sports, library, help/support groups, — things of general interest (and probably western in nature too eg aerobics etc). I will only object to using things considered *Hindu” but dehinduising it and calling it Indian. That is not fair.
I wish somebody who has gone to the Indian centre narrates his experience.
Without alterations, does the center make more sense in uber suburban sprawl areas or ultra urban areas? I’m guessing Milipitas is more of a suburb than a close-knit urban center, right?
I grew up in a very rural area next to temples, community centers etc, that did incorporate a great deal of religions and those buildings just seemed to be a value-added bonus to the experience of just living there with ‘community’ members. Now considering most communities do not come together for the purpose of living some lifestyle, is there a bonus to throwing up a community center in an area where everyone has to drive 10-15 minutes to get there?
This reminds me of the Christmas tree and Nativity scene issue that pops up every holiday season.
This reminds me of the Christmas tree and Nativity scene issue that pops up every holiday season.
There is a slight difference, though. No Hindu will walk up to a church or community place and tell them to de-christianize it and make it secular and palatable to all.
dumb question, but how exactly are these generations: first, 1.5, .5, 2.5 etc defined? thanks.
Perhaps the Jewish Community Center model ought to be followed more faithfully. In other words, call it a Hindu Community Center, but keep it open to people of all faiths and all races. It’s perfectly legitimate for Hindus to express a desire for a space they can explicitly identify as their own. When was the last time anyone expected Sri Lankan Christians or Pakistani Muslims to make the kind of choice Hindus are routinely expected to make for the greater good of imaginary South Asian/Desi/Brown community. I’m curious to know how inclusive of Bangladeshi Hindus are Bangladeshi American organizations.
So what is the point of a temple? Cant they have religious instruction and programs over there?
To the best of my knowledge this is what most temples in USA do. At least this is what the The Hindu Temple Society of North America (aka ganesh mandir in flushing) does. They offer services like medical check-ups,SAT classes, yoga classes , etc for people of all faiths.
In London I stayed at the Indian YMCA. It ws a YMCA that served Indian meals (veg and nonveg) and provided lodging, exercise rooms and event halls. Most of the people who stayed there were Indian but it was open to all and I saw people of every race while I was there.
Perhaps, a Desi Center in America can do the same. Provide budget lodging for desis away from home.
An Desi community center has to fulfill a need that is not being met. For most desis the temple, mosque, church and gurdwara is fulfilling most of the community needs.
That’s good to hear. I couldn’t agree less with the person who wants to keep non-Hindus out of temples. This goes against Hinduism’s best instincts and panders to its worst. But by the same token if Hindus in America are to thrive as a religious community–and not merely one bound by stories about uncool school lunches or whatever else passes for trauma here–then they will have to find a way to be assertive without being intolerant. This isn’t India where eight out of ten people identify as Hindu. It’s America, where the most prominent Indian-American running for office must explicitly reject the faith of his forefathers to have a hope in hell of being elected. Though I ought not to complain. Indian Community Center is far superior to Brown Community Center, or the almost as horrific South Asian Community Center or, heaven forbid, the Sepia Community Center.
The India Community Center occupies a 40,000-square-foot building that offers, among other things, free medical care for the uninsured, Indian language classes and Bollywood-style aerobics but keeps out religious activities.
Just curious, but would Mahatma Gandhi have fit in this India Community Centre. He was devout, wore his religion on his sleeves, but was secular, appealing and inclusive of all religions and races.
Then the other question is — that Anil Godhwani wants to recreate the Indian India here, when circumstances are totally different. I do wish him luck, by my final analysis will be that the Indian centre may do well, having its own niche segment. But it not be able to push over the religious, and other ethnic based organisations.
To complete the above — I guess there is space for all types of Indian organisations fulfilling various needs.
Let’s not forget that, semantics and identity politics aside, there is a need for a place for seniors and retired folks to mingle with others in their age group. I’m glad the ICC was built with our grandparents generation in mind because they carry a less sectarian historical memory of their India than my parents generation. With the respect that age commands, the pre-groundbreaking debate sure went faster than it otherwise would have.
It’s not a dumb question. My understanding is that: 1st gen = First to immigrate to the U.S. (typically post-college) 1.5 gen = Immigrated, but during childhood (up through 18ish) 2nd gen = First generation born in the U.S. 3rd gen = Second generation born in the U.S. etc. I have no idea what 0.5 gen or 2.5 gen would mean.
Ok, for anyone whose been to the Bay, there are MANY mandirs, masjids and gurdwaras. There is NO POINT in the Milpitas India Community Center being Hindu-only. While there are certainly more desi Hindus than any other group, there is a large minority of Jains, Muslims, Sikhs, and to a smaller extent Buddhists and Zorastrians. There are more than enough religious spaces in the Bay. I don’t know why I keep finding the argument for a “Hindu Center” offensive, but I do. Maybe because there’s an underlying argument that a space is only warranted if you’re Hindu? Or perhaps you should only be considered “Indian” if you’re Hindu? There is a difference between coming to a center designed to celebrate diversity versus coming to a space specifically for the purpose of worship that might also happen to do programming or community service provision.
What I like about the center is that it is cross-cutting and that it offers a lot of programs and services that are culturally relevant. It’s even just doing basic things like ensuring that people’s dietary needs or restrictions are met instead of treating these restrictions like an imposition. They do all sorts of things, from childcare, to dance classes, to ESL/citizenship classes, and they work really hard to provide as many desi language speakers/translators as possible. The India Center is ambitious, and generally successful from what I’ve seen.
They also provide a really lovely space for older generations who may live with their kids but cannot entertain their family friends. I don’t know if this is true for others, but my parents and grandparents were always big fans of entertaining at home. The more they moved and the farther their friends were, the hardest this became. My grandparents, I think, would love a non-religious community space. It would certainly help them meet more people and feel more self-sufficient. It’s also true that you can’t just hold any event in a religious space — it wouldn’t be seen as appropriate. This provides a secular space to meet others and to also embrace the diversity of the des as well as the diversity of the ABD population in the Bay.
murali, Milpitas is somewhere between a suburb and an urban center, but it’s part of the larger “Silicon Valley” swathe of the greater San Jose/lower SF Peninsula area. I think of it more like one of the cities in the greater LA area — it’s a region typified by sprawl and the necessity for a car to get around. There IS, however, a tasty South Indian restaurant near the center.
That can be easily fixed with a stare. I know many religious Indians who know less about the meaning of what they do compared to my agnostic relatives. This whole thing of excluding non Hindus from temples just seems counter to the way all the Indians I know were brought up.
“The reason I think temples should be restricted to Hindus is because they are places for quiet contemplation and meditation on the Lord. I am sick of going to the temple and seeing all these white people there talking loudly and indulging in some sort of sociological tourism, or people coming purely to eat the food.”
As someone who’s been refused entry to a temple simply based on the color of my skin, I take issue with this logic. How do you determine who’s a believer and who’s not. By perceived ethnicity? By skin color? By name?
I think an Indian community center is a great idea. I wish there’d be one around when I was a kid.
Camille: I agree with you in that there relevant services that can be provided when you have an all encompassing “Indian” Community center. It is like a one stop centre. Most temples alternate as Hindu centers anyway.
Gautam: In countries outside India, it is virtually impossible to restrict temples for Hindus alone. Many would find it offensive. It is true that many westerners come to temples more for touristy/museum purposes which corrupts the temple’s atmosphere.
thanks camille:)
“It is true that many westerners come to temples more for touristy/museum purposes which corrupts the temple’s atmosphere.”
but don’t many temples encourage this and invite non-hindu community members to tour in an effort to foster greater understanding and lessen the inevitable misapprehensions that these “foreign” religions face in a country that often still finds it hard to wrap its head around anything other than judeo-christian beliefs?
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blockquote>In my parents generations, everyone was married to a Bengali Hindu. But their children, born and raised here, did not – some have married Punjabis, others Tamil, there has also been the occasional Hindu-Muslim interrmarriage. Such couples, should they decided to become involved in the Indian community, may feel that a group that is solely Bengali or solely Gujarati will not meet their needs.
This can also apply to young couples moving to the U.S. …
KXB, this was already happening in India long ago, among prosperously sprung middle class members of the generation that came of marriageable age around the time of independence. It has always been the way of princely marriages. I’m sure many factors influence this, but one of them is surely prosperity, the accompanying expansion of one’s social circles, and consequently broader redefinition of one’s own identity.
Hey, how about a South Asian golf glub. No religious rancor whatsoever, just prosperous brownz getting the game on. I’d be down for a plate of chat and some mutton kebabs in the club room after a Saturday morning round of 18 🙂 And the Jews do it too!
I could have sworn I did put that last paragraph into block quotes.
How does that corrupt the atmosphere????? I must have grown up around a different set of Indians from some of you guys. I do not understand this exclusionary mentality. I know there are temples in India that allow foreigners. It is just not temples outside India. I know there are temples in inda that also exclude lower caste Hindus. About the only exclusionary thing I have seen is the caste stuff and that is something that affects other Hindus.
And so what if someone goes to a temple just to check it out as a museum. Have you ever been to Tirupati. I doubt everyone who goes or works there does so with the best possible spiritual attitude.
I can understand if you get pissed when a group of people come in and do not observe common courtesies.
did not put it into block quotes.
“just prosperous brownz getting the game on. I’d be down for a plate of chat and some mutton kebabs in the club room after a Saturday morning round of 18 🙂 “
hmm. very exclusionary. what about the non-prosperous ones and the ones who don’t want to be in the room when someone is eating a mutton kebab or the ones who can’t stand golf?:)
Pravin, I’m with you. I think it’s important for people to be briefed in what’s considered “appropriate behavior,” but beyond that I think it’s much nicer to have (relatively) accessible religious spaces. I’ve had friends ask if they can come with me to gurdwara, and I totally bring them along — I just brief them in the protocol/expectations ahead of time. My family’s not Hindu, but we’ve definitely visited different mandirs before. Does that make us corrupting influences? 🙂
WGiiA?, no problem.
the one time i visited a gurudwar was for a wedding. i needed to keep my head covered, so i wore a turban. it was pretty sweet.
Hey, how about a South Asian golf glub. No religious rancor whatsoever, just prosperous brownz getting the game on. I’d be down for a plate of chat and some mutton kebabs in the club room after a Saturday morning round of 18 🙂 And the Jews do it too!
Sounds good!
I think there should secular organizations like India/Desi community centers and religious organizations like Hindu/Sikh/Muslim/etc. community centers. The latter should be for who are more into into “serious” desi religious activities ( philosophy/prayers/rituals/etc. etc ). The former is best reserved for any “popular” desi activities and socializing. All complications arise when you mix both of these because then then there is question of funding, organizational resoruces and offending somebody
When I lived in Maryland there plans underway for a “gymkhana” club. Don’t know if it ever got off of the ground.
When I lived in San Jose, I found the concept of the ICC great, but there were gaps in implementation. The “Indian” culture presented there was primarily filmi centric. I felt much more home at temple. It was too far from home/office to really make use of the fitness facilities. Hubby thought it would be neat to play carroms there, but realistically never got around to it. The BharataNatyam classes made me (and would make muralimannered) cringe. There are tons of desi things going on the Bay Area. This is just another venue.
“I am sick of going to the temple and seeing all these white people there talking loudly and indulging in some sort of sociological tourism, or people coming purely to eat the food. The food is subsidized by the people who donate like myself (and the other classes and programs as well) and we give money because it is part of our dharma to support the temple.”
I don’t mind people coming to just eat the food. Eating is also a form of worship. For most Westerners, eating at the temple may be one of the few times they actually sit down to eat with other people without multitasking (watching tv while eating). Also, everytime someone eat’s at a temple, they are eating a vegetarian meal and also for at least that day eating less meat. Doesn’t this also further a goal of Hinduism?
I do think everyone who can donate, should donate even if its just loose change. Its amazing there are people who routinely spend $4 – $5 on coffee yet won’t pony up $1 – $2 after eating a large full course meal at the temple.
ak, thanks for your response. Yes, I agree with you and I am aware that we all have multiple identities that co-exist, and depends on who we are interacting with. The way Camille phrased the definition and purpose of a “South Asian” identity, I found it confusing. I am happy under a POC umbrella in the US, and don’t necessarily see the need for me to take on a “South Asian brown” identity, nor does the idea attract me. But if others are discussing it, obviously they feel such a need. Which is fine with me. Maybe it’s a function of, or more common amongst 2nd gen and onwards, who have had different experiences than moi. I’m a 1st gen. shrug Now back to the on-topic discussion. 🙂
There are plenty of temples and other various religious center all over the country for those who want to attend. The purpose of this center is something other than that. There is room both. Those who want religion can attend the religious centers, those who want a more wider cultural experience can attend centers like this one, and those who want both can go to both. No need to pit one against the other.
We would LOVE to have a pan-Indian community center here in NJ. But our perception is that it would never work in this area because there is a significant enough Indian population here that people can psychologically afford to divide themselves by region, religion and language (as compared to a smaller city in the midwest, perhaps, where numbers are smaller and people are more likely to seek other other browns regardless of those subdividing factors.
BY the way, can anyone point me to places in the area to learn Punjabi? The gurudwaras around here don’t seem to offer language classes alone – it’s combined with religion classes. Columbia University has a Punjabi class but it’s 2x a week.
i don’t know about ‘take on’ – it seems so active, really. i think the pan-south asian ID comes about because we are in the diaspora. but i view it as similar to DBDs having an identity as a member of their particular community – be it along religious, linguistic, national etc lines. just as you may ID yourself as an indian etc, so others identify themselves as south asian. but it seems a bit more passive than maybe you are suggesting?
There’s a place for a non-mandir Hindu center as well, where people can learn about Hinduism and also meet, greet, swim, and eat. Something less mandir-like than even the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam, which as Swami Dayananda Sarasvati says is not a mandir, but a place for learning. Ultimately whether it is a mandir or a cultural center, people who don’t consider themselves Hindu will still frequent the place if they feel comfortable and welcome. I have known a mandir that atracts a very diverse non-Hindu audience for the annual garba/dandia. Some of these people make a pradakshina inside the murti hall (which now features a divine murti of Sri Mahavira as well), some others head directly for the community hall for the dandia. Now who am I to tell people what they can/should/must do? Maybe I who is so conscious about what others are doing am not mindful of my own lack of understanding.
off topic but… I’ve been invited to a Sikh wedding later this month and I’m totally clueless on what to wear to the gurdwara. I know I need to cover my head. My friend has a lovely sleeveless salwar kameez she can lend me– is it kosher (ha) to wear a shawl that covers my arms and head?
if anyone wants to email me rather than derail the thread that’d be lovely. 🙂
That’s possible. I didn’t mean to imply that a person wakes up one morning and makes a snap decision to take on a new identity. 🙂 People’s life experiences vary, and the gradual realization of identifying with a certain identity/group will vary from one person to another. Ask me in another 20 years and it’s quite possible that I’ll be a member of a local South Asian group. It has to be an organic process.
goriwife, the Bay Area certainly has a large enough population of desis for there to be subdivisions. it really just depends on what people’s priorities are. I think it helps that this center was founded by folks across migrational generations.
Re: Punjabi Here is a link to the first Punjabi language Network. It’s a little dated, but it has very accessible old school tutorials and free-ware fonts.
There are language programs at both UCB and Stanford. I’ll ask my family if they know of any concrete programs in NJ. Sadly enough, most gurdwara-based programs are not very well taught, probably in part because they’re taught by lay-people without teaching experience and without good tools/reference materials.
sarah, it’s totally appropriate to wear a sleeveless kameez. Your shawl/chunni/dupata should cover your head. Did your friend provide a dupata with the Punjabi-suit she’s lending you? Other than that, just make sure your hands and feet are clean and that you take off your shoes. As a non-Sikh, you are not required to bow to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji unless you want to.
It’s also possible, Gautham, that some of us reject the antipathies created in a post-Partition subcontinent. You mentioned having more in common with other southies than with northies. By the same measure, I have more in common with someone of Pakistani Punjabi descent than with someone from, oh, say Orissa. All that said, I do think there’s a unique catalogue of experiences that a person experiences as a person of subcontinental/South Asian descent within the U.S. Not saying everyone has to sign up or ascribe to it, but I understand the rationale.
Amit, sorry I’m confusing 🙂
Thanks, Camille! I’ll see it tonight but I think there’s a dupata. Awesome. 🙂
No problem, sarah 🙂 I’m sure your friend will lend you something appropriate, but a general rule of thumb is not to flash too much skin (sleeveless outfits have been way more in fashion among teens-20somethings the last few years, so depending on where you are they’re kind of more likely to pass). You could also always throw a light cardigan over your outfit for when you’re in the gurdwara if it makes you feel more comfortable / less exposed.
The civic South Asian leaders in Indianapolis had this vision in the early 80’s. The community center there was for all folks, not oriented towards religion. Which was truly refreshing, and quite visionary. In fact as I grew there I know first hand participation was also given from not only Hindus Muslim originally from Pakistan as well as India.
I don’t think 1st generation can be bracketed as a monolithic group…I reiterate there is a growing number of “IBCDS” who will not probably like “region” specific activites of these community centers. Maybe if they want to indulge in serious religious activites then they would peefer serious religious centers.
How about something simple??? An Indian community center with emphasis on kids and seniors during weekdays (the people who really need networking or babysitting or learning when the 20-50 somethings are away at work) and everybody on weekends.
All religions, all languages.
People congregate voluntarily whenever the agenda is interesting for all. Otherwise let the groups with common interests gather on their own schedule and if a conference room needs to be booked, they can do so in advance. There is no need for a perfect plan.
The marketplace will dictate what is needed.
So now lets list the options available based on all the above comments
(a) Religious centers (b) Pan-religious i.e multi religious (b) Pan-South-Asian centers (d) Pan-Indian centers (e) Regional centers/associations ( for Punjabi, Bengalis, Telugus and other regional language based and also include Bollywood/Mollywood/Tollywood fan clubs )
Seriously excluding (a) I still don’t perhaps understand what kind of activities do people expect from (b),(c),(d),(e). Is it mroe reliable desi nanny service, cooking classes, language classes, filmi and dress socializations, old-age activities ? Can somebody please tell me what desi things they want from these centers which is not fulfilled by things available university, internet, books, backpacking, immediate family memeners and relatives/cousins from India ?