Most of the ideas of Neela Banerjee’s recent New York Times article on Indian-American lobbying were actually covered in a blog post by KXB here a couple of weeks ago.
But what caught my eye was the bit about an India Community Center in Milpitas, California:
The India Community Center in Milpitas, Calif., represents the nonsectarian approach many Indian-Americans take to replicating the experience of American Jews. When Anil Godhwani began talking to other Indians in Silicon Valley about opening a center, “more than one person talked to us about making this a Hindu community center — sometimes in very strong terms,†he said. That was never his intention, though he was raised Hindu.
A Silicon Valley millionaire who sold his company to Netscape in the late 1990s, Mr. Godhwani said he and his brother envisioned a place that promoted the variety of Indian culture to Indian-Americans and non-Indians alike. The Godhwanis canvassed other ethnic centers and the Y.M.C.A. But the Jewish Community Center model resonated with them. It celebrated Jewish culture while avoiding the divisiveness of politics and religion. And it welcomed outsiders. The India Community Center occupies a 40,000-square-foot building that offers, among other things, free medical care for the uninsured, Indian language classes and Bollywood-style aerobics but keeps out religious activities. (link)
I would have loved to have something like this growing up — too bad there isn’t anything similar on the east coast.
More generally, I’m not surprised by the opposition Godhwani encountered as he was trying to put this thing together, though I am disappointed. Most people tend to presume that a South Asian community organized around entirely religion is an inevitable fact of nature, but does it have to be that way?
I’m not saying that Mandirs, Gurdwaras, Masjids, and indeed, Churches don’t have their place; they do. There are things our Gurdwara did well when I was growing up in Maryland, but it was pretty poor when it came to producing a sense of community oriented to aspects of life other than religion, which is what a community center like this is trying to do. They were also quite poor (back then) in language instruction — I learned very little Punjabi even after years of Sunday school. And very few non-Sikhs ever came in, even though Gurdwaras are technically supposed to be open to anyone.
There’s also strength in numbers, especially in parts of the country where the South Asian community might be smaller than it is in the Bay Area or New York/New Jersey. An India-, or perhaps even a “Desi” Community Center, could be a place with more critical mass.
I know, I know — I’m being idealistic again.
the desire to skip around a campfire singing “koom baya” with a bunch of brown people. this is key.
Seriously,
How many of you really go to these desi community centers? I havent been to one in 5 years (not couting that single time visit I made to Maryland SVT.)
Trudy’s located in North Austin has been closest to what a community for me 🙂
I would love a non religious community center. would like some connection to desis without going to temple. im not religious, and having to go to temple to have anything to do with culture is something ive never liked.
Brij, I agree. That’s why I was careful to use the words “maybe” and “more common” in my comment. 🙂
I know I commented on this. But I would like to know what people feel about the quality of life for old Indians who come here to stay with their kids? I feel sorry for a lot of them as they feel bored during the daytime.
this is something i would have no idea how to solve. i think my grandma is bored during the day, but we all work. she doesnt speak english, so its tough. its not like any of us can afford to quit the “factory” to spend time with her.
Puli, I was thinking of how the kids(the kids in this case, being your parents) could probably find some community oriented solution in keeping with the theme of this blog entry. Not always practical. But if it’s possible, I think people should explore different ideas. Not necessarily for somoene to stay home and keep her company.
I do think the ICC is a great idea! I live in the Bay Area but have yet to visit and don’t know if I ever will due to the distance from my house. It’s location is prime though becuase the number of desis living in that area of the peninsula/south bay.
I think the founders’ ideas are in sync with what many gen 2.0 desis feel. They have desi friends and marry desis from all regions/religions of India. Religion doesn’t matter to them, it’s the culture, the connection you have of being desi.
My Fijian Indian coworker made an apt comment to me yesterday regarding Indians in America. While living in Fiji, she was friends with all Indians, no matter where they were from or what religion. She is ethnically Punjabi, but just considers herself Indian. She would fast with her Muslim friends during Ramadan or go to church with her Christian friends. She said she never knew that Indian people made distinctions about relgion or region until she moved to America.
I think people with her mindset would get the most out of an ICC.
this is really dependent on the individual’s point of view – i know plenty of pakistanis and indians who have very similar viewpoints on the biggest source of tension, kashmir. and i certainly would not make the mistake of substituting a government’s attitude/actions for that of its people, esp. given e.g. musharraf’s popularity ratings these days. i have a very strong tie to india and i follow its politics actively. yet, i do consider myself south asian in addition to indian (and south indian, etc). moreover, i actively follow pakistani politics because i find them interesting, they are relevant to india’s political scene, and they affect the situation of some of my closest friends.
i also think that one can separate different identities for different issues – perhaps in american foreign policy, considering onself indian is more practical, because fp is based on nation-states, not regions per se. i also don’t think it’s a zero sum game – that anything that benefits india must necessarily disadvanatage pakistan, and vice versa. however, i would think that the government’s domestic policy towards desis (and immigrants in general) affects many south asians equally, and i would not necessarily be for separating desis by their national origin. beyond that i think the political issues regarding desis are separate from the cultural ones. i.e. i can see your point in separating out for some purposes, but not necessarily for others. to say that indians must always be categorized separately from other desis in every instance is too simplistic, and as camille pointed, in many cases it is factually wrong.
The quality of life depends on where you live. The best situation is where the parents are mobile and there are other Desi parents nearby. If they’re debilitated in any way, the quality if life can be better in India, with cheaper one-on-one care and less isolation. There are some great long-term care facilities in the UK which serve Indian meals and have Indian caregivers.
I am way, way late to this conversation, but to echo Monimoni’s sentiment above – I am curently interning at a nuring home with about 25-30 elderly Desi residents. There are two Desi nurses on the unit, and a Desi cook in the kitchen to make all manner of Indian/Pakistani food (I’m fairly sure all the residents are Indian/Pakistani). There’s a community liason – an “Amreekan Sikh” (white Sikh)- who makes an effort to publicize the services to those in the Chicago Desi community.
camille: ‘corrupting influence’ may be an inappropriate choice of words. But I had a french friend who did make a comment that Westerners tend to treat other objects of worship more along the lines of visiting some time of museum.
Temples — the focus should be the deity. And there is a certain atmosphere that should go along with it. When we bring about other issues we are really straying from the very purpose of the temple as a place for prayers, quite contemplation etc. This is not to say other issues are not important, but we should not confuse it with the purpose of the temple. The deity residing is considered alive and breathing (he is like the CEO of the temple). Everything else should be secondary to it.
I have had good Bangladesh, Pakistani friends. Unfortunately religion is a divisive factor, so there might always be a level of discomfort and superficiality. In fact we can have deeper connections with those hailing from East Asia.
With respect to our relations Indians from other states — it depends on out background. If we are from Delhi, Mumbai Calcutta-and now Bangalore- we are already used to different enthnic groups. Those from other areas may still cling on to their kind.
As somebody pointed out there is space both for India centers and other ethnic/religious based centers. I don’t know much about this India Community Centre but there are also those centres which may be politically active and leftist orientation (whatever that implies). Eg friends of south Asia (FOSA) is a good example in the Bay Area. They are desi, south Asian, but there slant is definitely. The Pakistanis there are quite joyous to celebrate the Muslim festivals. The folks who go by the Hindu names, on the other hand are either apathetic or atheistic. I would believe an Indian Center would cater to such a crowd (though I may be mistaken)
A lot of this thread leaves me feeling nauseous and on the verge of a migraine. Stupid me, I had “saved” it to read until I could pay attention to it, because I was struck by the NYT piece the exact same way our good Professor was, and I tend to treat everything he writes with extra reverence, but now I wish I had done what I usually do and skimmed the thread to stay abreast of the tone vs. saving it for when I had time to delve in and savor it. I wish I had commented earlier, if only to prevent some of the unbelievably unreasonable, infuriating…”thoughts”…I’ve read and noted.
I’d write an entire post about this, but I’m late for the birthday of one rockstar, righteous girl of a mutineer, whom I met at the meetup last Saturday, and I think I’d rather eat a cupcake with her than fume over bullshit. Maybe later.
Speaking of the meetup, I have not written it up because I didn’t have the photographs; for once, I didn’t take a single picture (that tells you almost all you need to know about Nirvana, right there), so I had to wait for one of you kind souls to upload the album. Photos and post, coming soon. Rant about how I once had to take bullshit from racist non-desis, who mistake me for the very bitter, negative desis who are mean to me because I am NOT like them…coming soon. Or after. Or never. Sometimes, I think my life (and blood pressure) = too precious for such crap.
venkat, where are you based, out of curiosity? I haven’t been to ICC (it’s too far) to know what the vibe of the group is, but I’ve definitely met religious Muslims and religious Hindus there. That said, it wasn’t at a “standard event” or any of that.
I guess my perspective on the purpose of places of worship is different, but that’s also because I’m coming from the Sikh context. I can’t claim to speak for what mandirs should and should not do, but as a person of faith I think it is more of a service than disservice to religious communities to make themselves available/accessible to the public. And, on that same note, I think many (U.S.) gurdwaras do not live up to their expectation to be open and accessible.
ANNA, I hope you have a rockin’ time, and please let us know if the cupcakes were tasty 😉
Sorry, that should read I haven’t been to ICC often enough. I have been, and I liked it 🙂
Is there a Hindu equivalent to a Christian Sunday school ? Is it common?
I ask because a few years ago I got into a flame war with a very senior executive who said he sends his children to Indian Sunday school. He meant ‘Hindu’ Sunday school.
Are there other people her age that speak her language somewhere in your vacinity? Hook her up with them. Otherwise maybe online chatting in her language?
It can increase one’s odds for meeting interesting people and dating.
120 · melbourne desi on October 4, 2007 09:15 PM · Direct link
“Is there a Hindu equivalent to a Christian Sunday school ? Is it common?”
Heck, yes! Commonly known as Bal Vihar or Bal Vikas, the latter being more to the point, the Hindu Sunday school for children is the single biggest driver of temple attendance all over North America. It is the only reason hundreds of thousands of otherwise non-religious Indian parents go to temple Sunday mornings. I can’t count the number of kickoffs and first quarters of NFL games I have missed.
Speaking of cupcakes, Isa and Terry have many recipes for really yummy cupcakes.
Amit, that is my absolute favorite cupcake book. How did you know?
ANNA, I would be all over a “veggie-friendly” recipe sharing circle. Doesn’t have to be through SM, I’m just sayin’ 🙂
Melbourne Desi: 1. I have noticed different flavors of Hindu religious schools. (These could be several more … feel free to add) Bal Vihar, mainly Bhajans with stories from Hindu mythology. Oddly secular, in the sense that the kids are thought to respect all religions and have bhajans parising godsof other religions(I remember singing bhajans praising Allah, Nankak and Jesus). Mainly a private community based venture, run by people affiliated to the Chinmaya Mission. A typical class can be found here
Vedic Classes/ Study of Scriptures Held typically in Small groups in Temples etc, Slokas are tought and their meanings explained/deliberated
Formal Study of Vedas. Brahmins are supposed to continuously study vedas, so parents sometimes often hire a tutor to teach the kids the slokas. Sometimes larger groups are formed for the same purpose.
Bharatnatayam / Carnatic music classes. It would probably be fair to call such classes as cultural rather than religious.
Camille, thank you for the response. I will be certain to take a look at the link you’ve provided!Good point about the migrational generations. Definitely much more separating into subdivisions among the 1st gens and 1.5 gens we know than the 2nd gens…
on most college campuses, why do pakistani students prefer to join the muslim students association, rather than the south asian org.
why is there not a single pakistani blogger on sepia? or for that matter, why no pakistani authored blog that claims south asian heritage?
and despite all the talk of similar issues amongst south asian browns, why no south asian lobbying on the hill?
werd. there were quite a few mallu christians in my bharata natyam classes. (i doubt most muslim families would send their daughters though)
Curisous and those who agree with you: bait people elsewhere.
I am sorry if you weren’t around for the dozen other times we hashed out the whole South Asian issue over the past three years, but we are not obliged to entertain possibly insincere and wholly unproductive attempts at inquiry regarding it now.
Seriously, this undercurrent of anti-SA-the-label is neither witty nor avant-garde and a cursory look through our archives would both prove that and spare those of us who are in no mood to fight over something which isn’t up for debate in the first place.
People who hate “South Asia” are not being forced to read or lurk here, on a South Asian American blog. It’s that simple.
i don’t think pakistanis have a monopoly on insularity. based on my campus experiences, it is not as if indians are particularly good about reaching out to the other countries, either.
before tarring all pakistanis, read this excellent blog.
i don’t know the bloggers, but i am guessing that one cause is that the team is not built with the same philosophy as a benetton ad. plus sin was a guest blogger here.
Access Code- don’t be surprised as to why you were deleted.
I addressed this non-issue in comment 129. Please heed it…or I can shut down the thread. Your choice.
That deserves a little explanation: BN items, even thillana(s), are always referencing a Hindu deity or mythology. There exist no classical BN items (and by classical, I mean pre-Rukmini Devi revival) that exclusively reference Islam or Christianity to the degree that BN references Hindu deities and stories. Teachers can occasionally run into students who are expressly non-Hindu and do not wish to give the impression that they are in any way Hindu, by way of religious sentiment expressed through abhinaya, but most students, yes even those who are expressly not Hindu, will recognize it’s cultural significance and be able to appreciate it.
This seems to be true in many schools. I would say it’s a safe bet to say that most people currently taking BN in the states, especially ABDs, are not thinking about devotion or communing with god when they show up for class. It’s hard enough just to get your body in the correct positions.
nala, i grew up dancing (bharata natyam) with a muslim girl. it seems to be rare, but it occurs… i think because she is gujju and my guru and most of my fellow students were also.
being the product of an “inter-regional” marriage myself, i’ve associated with both of my parents’ regional organizations in southern california where i grew up… and felt ostracized from both for being “half-and-half”. my parents are 1st gen, and i guess i would be considered 2nd gen. i would have loved having a truly south asian center (as opposed to one dominated by one regional group, religion, etc) because i was always pressured (by people other than my family) to prove which region i really belonged to.
i said a “south asian center” because several 2nd gen-ers do reject regional/national biases; the brown cliques i saw in college were more based on majors and class years than being pakistani, sri lankan, or indian. maybe that wouldn’t have occurred ten or twenty years ago, but the possibility of such a center being successful is much less ludicrous today.
another counter example that proves nothing.
indeed. my muslim classmate learned all about hindu mythology through bharata natyam, and took it as a way of learning abhinaya and the art form itself. the fact that she didn’t have a hindu background didn’t hinder her from learning BN… although i do believe the fact that my guru was gujju played a large role.
SM INTERN – Indeed, a cursory search of the archives did reveal that the issue has been discussed ad nauseam. Being new to the blog I was unaware. However, my rhetorical [legitimate] questions were meant to provoke a discussion.
I wonder how this center will go with the North Indian vs South Indian divide.
I’d rather have a Hindu Community Centre then an ‘Indian Community Centre’…reason being, I’d be welcome in the Hindu one, while rejected in the other… ‘Hindu’ is often far more inclusive than ‘Indian’ is.
South Asia wasn’t really split on ethnic groups, else the tamil community, the punjabi community, and bengali community would not have been split up. But while the punjabi community and bengali community was split on religion (and the communities have diverged accordingly), the tamil community was split purely on the fact that one side was on an island a few miles from the mainland..
As a Sri-lankan tamil I have far more in common with the mainland brethren (common culture, entertainment, etc.) than I really do with the majority of my island’s inhabitants, even though we’re of different nationalities.
As I relate more to a neighbouring nationality than I do my own, I’m all for the establishing of a pan-‘South Asian’ identity…
But if the only choices are ‘Hindu’ and ‘Indian’ then my only choice is ‘Hindu’…. hinduism is not confined to the borders of what is now considered india..
goriwife, my pleasure. I just wish I had better information for you 🙁
Naqs, most of the folks I’ve met at the center are Southies, but that’s also a product (in part) of where’s it’s located geographically. That said, I’ve also seen northies there. I have no idea who frequents or uses it more.
As Divya mentioned, I find for many the “India” aspect of the ICC is what makes people feel more limited.
The Bobby above is not me (I just posted in the ‘Hate Crime in Maryland’ thread)
Uhh, sorry about that Bobby. I guess I’ll be Bobby_Two.
Camille, nice to know. My friend (who moved to Washington, DC) actually makes really yummy cupcakes from that book. You can’t stop at one. 😀
Srilankans, Bongs and Pakistanis have the freedom to create their own community centers. It is irritating to hear non-indian americans lecturing indian-americans on what indian-american identity should be.
In the warped world of ABCD’s, Uncle Tom is the Rebel and Chinua Achebe is the GOP.
Aha!! & Duh!! at the same time. I spent a few hours going over the 2005 and 2006 posts (and all the comments) on ‘South Asia’ vis-Ã -vis Sepia Mutiny, and a few things that had been puzzling me for a while suddenly became clearer. Simply reading the posts here (as I have been doing for a couple of months now) does not lead one to believe that this is a South Asian blog (pictures in the header, post subject matter) and not an Indian (and American) blog, even though the FAQ does mention “South Asian.”
It’ll be nice if a link to the two posts in the SM archive can be provided in the FAQ itself, so that newbies have that history available to them, because it does put things in perspective. Unless people prefer to re-visit this discussion every 6 months or so when new folks unaware of the history of the blog and “South Asian” identity unknowingly (or old folks knowingly) bring it up or ask questions. 😀
After reading those two posts, I feel even more strongly that the “South Asian” identity is not for me (for a few reasons that have been articulated in the comments of those two posts), and it comes across as somewhat PC and too contrived for my tastes. Which is not to say I don’t enjoy reading the posts on this blog, or hate the blog authors. 🙂
And I am not down on people who do choose to identify themselves as South Asians – live and let live, there’s space for all in this world, agree to disagree. I think it’s more a function of different life experiences and expectations.