…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
He already has a bunch of dedicated interns. I’m even up for any sort of murga-worshipping, bossman.
teetotaling musically inclined upstate ny small town tam brahm in da house!
I must warn you that I do not possess the Clinton charm, m’dear. But, honey, I have no problem with your wearing the pants.
i dont think ive ever seen desi prn. im curious now….
is that what the kids are calling it these days?
from now on, im going to call my activities this friday after work, “trying to get some pulikaaichal”.
Then in this system of logic, why get married or have kids at all? They’d only come in the place of client satisfaction, and you’d have to spend money on those darn kids.
Don’t take offense or anything, but ya’ll seem to have the most illogical parents around. My parents (and nearly everyone else around me) want their sons to make enough money for a stable job, get married, then have kids. rinse recycle repeat. I think it’s a bad idea as I’ve seen all the men in my family older than me, as little more than walking zombies. And that’s a problem for someone like me who actually wants some meaning for their existence, but if someone doesn’t care about that, it’s perfectly sound logic. So I see where they’re coming from.
Ah, bullocks.
why isnt having a lucrative career, and a loving wife and kids considered “meaningfull”? seems pretty nice to me…
No problem. As long as you won’t deny it later. How am I going to support my poor parents if I don’t write a tell-all book?
That’s a subjective term my friend. In fact, Swami Vivekananda clearly drew the distinction that you have drawn, right here
It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘it’ is.
This kid does not kid about food. In fact, I’m very serious about it.
PindaUSA, now I’m worried what will be inside that vat I am looking forward to.
nah…southie food and fun dont mix for me. only whipped cream and fun…
does that mean you won’t ever be purchasing sambar-flavoured condoms?
HMF, my dad is a workaholic – everything else in his life has just been a ‘break’ from that. i’m serious – my dad views anything not related to work as taking away from that time he could have spent working. in that sense, it is not necessarily a meaningful life, even though he has the wife and the kids. so you can see why his kids’ careers are so important to him – and i think he’s realising now that his single-mindedness towards work should have been coupled with some encouragement in the settling down area.
Since when do you need innuendo to be spelled out? Samajhdaar ko ishhara hi kaafi hai, hai na? (trans. The wise one needs but a small sign to intuit the unsaid).
Is that what the kids are calling it these days?
(Yes, I’ve gone all meta like Albee on you. “Martha, will you show her where we keep the, uh, euphemism?”)
Hey, don’t get me wrong, I’m not editorializing on whether it’s meaningful or not, like I said, thats a subjective evaluation. But it makes no sense to start a family if work is your #1 priority in life. I’m just pointing out the difference between an illogical position, and a logical, but undesirable position.
is that what we’re calling it right now?
And here I was thinking it felt like warm bisibele baath.
once i was talkig to this whyte grl, and she decided “she hates indian guys”. And that indian guys “dont treat women well, and arent smooth”. where does this reputation come from? seems to be damaging in general…
where does this reputation come from?
Mola Ram
Well played, portmanteau. The answer is that I don’t know. A 60 mile walk might be in order to figure that out.
but….mola ram was a badass who could rip a heart out of your chest while still beating. the original heartbreaker…
i might be happy to oblige – but first I must look at a biodata.
http://www.debonairblog.com. Going through this site, it looks like Bangladeshis and Malayalees are the horniest.
With all this quoting, I have to ask. Are there no new ideas? Or is everything old new again?
cough
baby, the answer to that question will be revealed to you once and for all – if…and only if, your biodata passes muster.
my dad is a workaholic – everything else in his life has just been a ‘break’ from that. i’m serious – my dad views anything not related to work as taking away from that time he could have spent working. in that sense, it is not necessarily a meaningful life, even though he has the wife and the kids. so you can see why his kids’ careers are so important to him – and i think he’s realising now that his single-mindedness towards work should have been coupled with some encouragement in the settling down area.
ak, i had no idea that you knew my dad!!! 😉
why, just the other day, my dad, who is “retired” and merely “consulting,” came home at 11 pm from work. just like he does 75% of the time (coming home between 9-10 the other 25%)! until i was maybe 22, he worked 7 days a week — and he has a 1+ hour commute. to his credit, upon watching me exhibit some serious workaholic characteristics, he told me not to make the same mistakes as he did and to not sacrifice family for a career. [you’d think knowing this, he mighta made a change or two himself!]
Oh, it more than passes muster. It love you long timem, gets rid of embarrassing acne, helps you quit smoking, removes unwanted pounds for less than 10 minutes a day, cooks a gourmet meal in under 30 minutes, and sets the time on your VCR. It is the Greeks’ deus ex machina, Hitchcock’s MacGuffin, and the rom-com’s life altering revelation. And all this can be yours for the low low price of $19.95 plus shipping and handling. If you call in the next 30 minutes, you will also get a free desi guy thrown in. And that’s a $1000 value.
you’re right – and thank god my mom was around as much as she was. but, from his point of you, he did all of it for us. my dad was an engineer before, and he made a nice salary. but as they were trying to start a family, and my sister was born, he felt he needed more money for the kids – so he switched careers and started his own business, which essentially coincided with the birth of all three children. and starting a business was not only grueling work but also something to pass onto the kids. so i can’t fault him for that – there was a sort of logical link between family and work as a top priority.
I am normally an abd but an “abcd” on some Desi’s strange opinions on this issue.
For the record, I think interracial marriages and relationships are a beautiful thing. Not only are the children of these marriages adorable, they are privileged and doubly blessed to have access to two wonderful cultures.
However, some Indian’s opinions on mixed marriages are not so beautiful. Many of my desi aquaintances (and even cousins who are girls) have married nice Gora boys (and I am sincerely happy for them). All of these desi girl friends and relatives married to goras all mentioned they find desi men and boys to be “ugly” , “nerdy” and “gross”, etc. Now, they have a right to their opinions. But the question I would like to ask them is, do they find their fathers, grandfathers and brothers to be “ugly”, “nerdy” and “gross”? (I am using the exact same words they used. At least those chicks are honest and truthful.) These same ladies also hated members of the African American race too and would never talk to an African American. I hope these desi chicks (maybe they can form a singing group why they hate the darker dudes) are in the minority in terms of their thinking.
Also, if these desi ladies married to gora dudes have sons that are probably going to be half white and half desi, does that make the sons half “ugly” or half “nerdy” or half “gross”??? Not trying to be sarcastic, but I am wondering about their logic.
Hope I have not offended anyone or hurt anyone’s feelings, but I think people should marry because they choose their spouse regardless of color, etc. I think all races have some lousy abusive men, and Indians really shouldn’t be singled out.
This somwehat contradicts your ‘workaholic’ assesment from earlier. workaholic implies you work for works sake, not to support a family or otherwise. Anyway, I’m not necessarily here to dissect any one particular case, only make my arguments based on aggregates.
But I can understand the point of having children forcing one to kind of “buckup” and go for things they hadn’t thought would be possible before, kind of like that moment in Rocky II where his son his born, and Adrianne goes “win”
i know this was part of a very angst-filled post (and i’m sorry about that, milli – though you’ve been quite strong thus far) but this is hilarious as a parental objection. from an orthodox hindu, i can believe it – but for it to be an objection up there with the ‘big’ ones – do you even respond to this particular ‘insult’?
oh, it wasn’t an insult!! i didn’t mean to suggest that at all. we were giggling for ages after she said it (more because of the “poor” part). after she finished, i was like, “oh my gosh, mom, you DO know me.” it was probably the nicest compliment she had ever paid me! plus, my mom leans way left herself (in theory, at least). (and i didn’t realize my last post was “very” angsty … hmmm … that was pretty lightweight for me)
i’m glad to hear somebody actually answered the question, what can brown do for you?
milli – my dad has never told me to get the balance better, but i’ve picked up a lot just observing 🙂 every time he talks about how doctors have so much free time blah blah blah, i thought that that actually sounded like a nice life (not that doctors don’t work hard, but i think it’s good to be in a speciality that allows for sufficient personal time). sometimes i think i didn’t choose a lucrative enough job – i could have made millions by now in the right field and then have my whole life to do nothing!
milli, I think ak thought you meant left-handed. I wasn’t sure myself when I read your post whether your mom was calling the future bread-winner 😛 of your family a commie, or just sinister.
shit, milli, by lefty, i thought you meant left-handed – my mistake! lefty is so slang for liberal – i didn’t think your mom would mean it in that sense (but she obviously did and that’s quite impressive). this is very embarassing 😉
rahul, thanks 🙂 i only thought being left-handed was a desi/hindu thing until i took latin and discovered the words ‘sinister’ and ‘dexter.’ i wonder whether the two concepts in differnt cultures are related..
Don’t forget gauche in french, and it’s connotations
oooh. heh.
but actually, come to think of it … my left-handed friends are always complaining about having to get theertham with their right hand. can you imagine if you took your ladyfriend or beau to the temple and they decided to make a stand for “lefties” all over the world by extending their left palm?? in that case, yes, i think “lefty” would fall pretty high on the objections list 🙂
I feel like comments on this thread breed like rabbits.
milli, I’ve seen the “got privilege?” shirts in the Bay (wish I could remember the small-print t-shirt shop that does them!), but never with the “well-behaved women..” quote on the back. Saucy 🙂
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Maybe this has to do with settlement history. But also, and please feel free to shoot me down, in my peer group Southies who are Hindu have had parents more concerned with their child’s partner’s caste than my North(west)ie friends.
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I loved this comment, it totally made me giggle 🙂
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Oz-girl, welcome! Come move to the UK or the States (but to a metro area)! I don’t know what the race-dynamics are around dating in Oz… do folks tend to stay within-race?
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I thought we had established that the answer to this is “no”? Although HMF will argue that women, overall, prefer assholes 🙂
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HMF, my dad would (and my mom, too, actually). My parents are pretty open to the careers we choose, but they are really adamant that we should be making enough to save heavily and support ourselves autonomously, ESPECIALLY in the case of getting married. They feel it’s important for both partners to have financial autonomy in case anything happens (emergency/death, vicious divorce, etc).
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Maybe we just have the awesomest parents out there? 🙂 My parents feel the same as yours, but their expectations extend to their daughters, also. Maybe that’s the difference?
But this is also another argument for SepiaDestiny, muahahaha.
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I don’t think you’ve hurt anyone… it’s a pretty good/sound argument. Don’t be racist — good lesson all around 🙂
OMG I’m sorry that was so long. One day I will learn to format more usefully, I promise 🙁
Whoa! Whoa! Not to get all commitment-phobic on you or anything, but I was just talking about a date, and you’re already on to breeding? Jeez, these Indian women!
oh, and rob, what’s with the interest in MD? why not JD?
my mother would beg to differ – be racist, but just not to the point where you can get called out on it. and when called out, become overly indignant and defensive. so far, my mom thinks it’s working 😉
Camille:
If you’re stating is at a necessary rather than sufficient belief, then you best ask ak and mill if there’s an oppositeland inductee ritual. That is, I can see parents having an attitude of “not minding” rather than “requiring” But Im beginning to realize SM in no way represents the mainstream experience, specially when it comes to fems.
But this simply does not compute with parents who feel their children should adhere to other gender norms such as: cooking sewing etc etc… unless you’re saying they stand against those as well.
But I will go to a more mainstream desi area and post this question up, and see what discussion arises from it.
A few random comments..This beast refuses to die. I check back every coupla days and see there’s another 200 comments.
Alterna-desis and women – I recently dated a brown bangla woman (see my earlier comment about sexual prefernce). She was a skinny long straight haired La Perla wearing Harvard educated high-powered career fast track architect in NYC. I think the only reason she dated (rather brief, but fun) me was because of my alterna-profession (filmmaker). There are a lot of desi women in non-profit compared to desi men and way too many desi docu-makers. Every feamle desi filmmaker I know is a docu-girl and I don’t know a single male docu. This has to be coming from somewhere and I will go with HMF and Puli about expectations on brown men and the careers they choose. I am not saying it is easy for desi women, but there seems to be more leeway for women. Ofcourse at the end of the day, it is upto the individual to choose what they want to do, parental opposition be damned.
Before I converted to an alterna, I was THE Engineer/MBA and would play up different parts of my identity depending on who I was with (I have hindu-mulsim north-south parents and am an engineer/MBA/filmmaker)
All things gay –
Harbeer, you mentioned your cousin’s self-destructive ways. It is not at all uncommon. I’m guessing he is young. The average age for gay guys settling down is early 40s.
The amounts of promiscuity in the gay community is ridiKulos. I think more straights (men and women) would sleep around if it were as easy to come by and there wasn’t so much taboo against it. In the gay community, it’s almost expected. In my sample set, the average straight male sleeps with about 20 women before settling down and the average straight woman sleeps with about 30 (it IS easier for women, especially if they are attractive). The average gay male blows those numbers through the water. A lot of that is a way to fight the repression after finally getting the opportunity, a lot of it is self-loathing and much of it is jus plain Horny. There is ofcourse the alterna-gay movememnt that is trying to drop the 80s and 90s image of gays as ass-chasing drug-addled HIV conduits. They are involved politically, and have long term relationships. meh…just kidding.
Gays in the des – Shaad, not surprised about your agony aunt article. You will see similar columns with questions from the LGB community (transgender, very rarely) in India and Pakistan as well. These are English dailies, and the editors etc are super liberal and even when they are not, it is not cool to dis someone gay in their paper. There is definitely some NIMBY gay attitudes in India among the upper middle classes. There are a lot of gays in THE Bollywood, from what my sources tell me. Boys boarding schools see some serious adolescent boy on boy action. For a lot of them , it’s only a question of lack of access to girls. But others that are actually gay, go on to get married etc and have flings on the side. I hear similar things about girls hostels in medical and engg schools. Growing up in fobland, Eve teasing happens to boys too on buses and trains. Yes, the same creepy uncle that cops a feel, does it to boys as well.
When I was in Uni in India (engg), there were rumors of 2 seniors being gay but after I came to the US, I found out that quite a few of my alumni were openly Gay (as in they would go to gay clubs, pride etc. Not flaming openly gay at work types since a lot of them were I-Bankers;-))in Amreeka. Sodomy is against the Law in India, and ofcourse all the societal mores make it very very hard.
I have been caught by my mom, with a girl (door bell rings, takes 20 minutes to open the door) and a boy (door bell rings, takes 10 minutes to open the door). And my mom has just ignored these episodes like they meant nothing although I suspect she was too naive to think anything about the boy. Or maybe I am too naive to think she suspects nothing.
Ofourse, identifying as bi (which I don’t like to do in general cos aligning yourself with some camp means there are rules and expectations) is a headache cos gays and lesbians think that you are not committed to the lifestyle or what not. And ofcourse in the straight world, if a guy is bi, it means he is gay and if a girl is bi, she’s hot. As for desi gays, there’s enough across all professions. All you got to do is find a big city nearest to you, and go to the gay clubs there. You will find plenty of desis. Most ABD gays I know have come out in their early 20s to their peers (not parents) and most of these lads used to date women before they came out 😉
Don’t hate, participate. I apologize for the long post. lage Raho…