All over the greater diaspora, Aunties bemoan that desi children are picky. How will they ever be satisfied? How will they ever settle down and start popping out the requisite grandkids?
Aunties can sleep better at night now that SCIENCE is on the job. Examining peoples’ behavior in online dating settings (which is equivalent to looking at biodata), they’ve noticed a few clear patterns:
Men are easy – they are generally interested in hotness above all. 
Women are choosier, but it turns out their preferences are fungible. This is good news for aunties because it gives them a metric with which to translate different suitor’s attributes to a common scale, allowing them to rank apples and oranges. They can tell, for example, whether an average woman (in this study) is likely to prefer the not quite as handsome, shorter i-banker or the more gorgeous, slightly taller, high school English teacher.
What is this common scale? Money. According to these researchers, women will forgive men’s flaws if (gasp) they earn more.
Consider looks. A guy can compensate for ordinary looks with more moola, which tells us what he has to reveal in his biodata if he wants to be a playa:
Suppose you’re an ordinary-looking guy whose online picture is ranked around the median in attractiveness… And suppose you’d like to be as successful with women as a guy whose picture is ranked in the top tenth. Then you’d need to make $143,000 more than him. If your picture is ranked in the bottom tenth, you’d need to make $186,000 more than him. [Link]
Cash also acts like elevator shoes for our shorter brothers:
… a 5-foot-0 guy would need to make $325,000 more than a 6-foot-0 man to be as successful in the online dating market. [Link]
Race matters too. Generally speaking, men were more willing to date somebody of a different race than women, with the exception of Asian women who preferred White men over others. (3/4ths of Asian-white marriages have Asian women and white men [Link] )
For equal success with an Asian woman, an African-American needs no additional income; a white man needs $24,000 less than average; a Hispanic man needs $28,000 more than average. [Link]
It’s not clear whether brown women act like their other Asian counterparts – any thoughts?
Lastly, if you want to get around these sorts of hurdles, skip the biodata and move straight to cha:
… people who are terribly picky in choosing partners online will relax their standards if they spend just three or minutes talking to someone at a speed dating session. [Link]
There you go. Now that science has helped Aunties, maybe it will come up for a way for the rest of us to be able to evade them. Oh yeah, it’s called caller ID 
In case you’re interested, here is the academic paper in question
.
Related posts: Speed kills (part 1), Speed kills (part 2)
Aunties are looking to arrange marriages, not hook-ups. Therefore the “hotness” equation is still low on their list, and second, third or fourth on the list of those willing to meet who their Aunties arrange a meeting with, due to the fact that when considering a marriage (arranged, assisted or whatever), there are other factors much more important than hot looks. Two of these would be honesty and loyalty, of paramount importance in a long-term relationship. Otherwise we would see more people marrying their “hottest” girlfriends or boyfriends, which rarely happens.
Many people want to date the “hot” girl or guy, but when it comes to settling down, the “domesticated cutie” is who they go for.
Amitabh
JOAT
Amitabh, JOAT makes a good point that the overall relationship can suffer if a woman is not appreciated and just automatically “expected” to take on the household tasks because it’s tradtion or the way it’s always been done. How would that effect a husband? Do you think a woman would really open up to such a man 100% emotionally, mentally, sexually? Just the sexual holding back alone should get most men thinking. When women are treated like unpaid domestic maids or doormats, won’t they act they same way in the bedroom?
Not to bring it down to sex only, but I always got the impression that the men who really knew how to please women in bed, and made much efforts to do so, also made similar efforts in other areas of the relationship too. When I see a husband who does his part in domestic duties – privately as well as when the couple are entertaining relatives and friends – that the same husband is the one who really goes out of the way to please his woman sexually – and a sexually satisfied woman is a happy woman who REALLY appreciates her man. This is simple sexual psychology. That is why, to be honest with you, when I see women in relationships like the ones you describe above – I think there must not be any area of life in which they are getting pleasure – maybe only from their children or religion, certainly not from their man. I just can’t picture the Uncles who sit around letting their women do all the work – and even eat before they do, with no consideration, I just can’t picture these same Uncles caring one iota for their wives’ pleasure in the bedroom. And I think this is one reason why outsiders comment that women from such families seem so stoic, sad, dissatisified and a tad envious of other women who are not in their same situation.
This is a topic that interests me because we are currently working on a project regarding female roles in societies and how those roles effect female sexuality, and male sexuality for that matter too.
“When I see a husband who does his part in domestic duties – privately as well as when the couple are entertaining relatives and friends – that the same husband is the one who really goes out of the way to please his woman sexually – and a sexually satisfied woman is a happy woman who REALLY appreciates her man.”
how is it you know this? meaning, how do you know that this is a condition apparent for lots of people rather than anecdotally only the one or ones you know?
there seems to be a lot of one sidedness to the discussion. i would like to hear from a women who is content, happy, ok, satisfied, with the way things are. also, i cannot think of a single friend of mine of italian or other western european heritage american or otherwise who isn’t complaining about their spouses lack of help.
the argument that one should change it because women in those particular situations are acutely unhappy and they will be happier and more willing and more fulfilled doesn’t seem to be universal based on my experience. some people are, can be, happy no matter what, and some just won’t, even given the bestest of the most wonderfullest husbands.
Dude – it’s telling, isn’t it? Perhaps you aren’t hearing from women who are “happy” with this situation because they are very rare, particularly among the younger and well-educated crowd that frequents SM? No-one is denying that patriarchy is a universal problem, btw, the argument is that it’s more culturally acceptable and prevalent among desis, and I can speak mainly for desis in desh, not in the US. Though the fact that women of all backgrounds complain about men not pulling their weight at home should be a sign to you that women tend not to like being, as JOAT put it so nicely, “dumped on because that’s just the way it’s always been.”
yes, it is true, unlikely they are amongst the frequent readers/commenters on sm, but, this does not translate to they being a minority among the population somehow. maybe they are so happy and content that they don’t have time for the internet or blogs.=)
this was my point, that what i have read intuitively does not seem to be a complete cross-section of views on the matter.
but, living in the desh now and having lived amongst des.h.is outside i do think there exists a difference amongst the groups. doesn’t seem a complete dialog without hearing from more perspectives.
To Amitabh: SP and JOAT have given you some good reasons, but perhaps, also, a man might want to subvert patriarchy, not just to benefits his wife or daughter, but because he might see it as an inherently unfair system where people are “dumped on” because of their gender. Some people object to such things on the basis of principle, even if their self interest is at stake. For some people peace of mind can only result from an maintaining an inherent fairness in a situation. It might be noble, but it’s also selfish since it involves one’s own peace of mind.
SP I have to disagree that patriarchy is more culturally prevalent among desis. Having lived there and here, I feel like while it might be more obvious and blatant amongst desis, it’s just as prevalent an attitude here, albeit in a more insiduous form
Desishiksa – I lived in the US for ten years and my ex was American, friends mainly American-born, and I certainly agree that patriarchy is present in many insidious forms in the US. It is, however, such a far cry from that I grew up with that I still flinch when I confront it at home now. I’m sure it varies from region to region and family to family, but that was my general experience.
Patriarchy is prevalent everywhere. It’s the great white hoax that America is more divorced from it. Ask anyone living in the Bible belt, a Christian man’s role is to be strong, and a Christian wife’s role is to submit. Clear as day. Let me tell you though, growing up, I remember when I was 14, 15 years old, grown women were already doing subtle things that made me feel uncomfortable, like offering me the front seat in the car, offering the straw mats for me to sit during religious festivals.
I fondly remember telling my aunt, 15 years my senior, to sit on the straw mat instead of me, her reply, “those are for gents” So while we’re still teenagers, we’re already being taught we’re “better” by the very women who abhor the system that prosecutes them so.
By the time you hit your mid 20s. You’re just used to it.
Having heard about complaints about husbands my entire adult life, and perhaps you only notice these things when husbands start showing up in your life among your family and friends. Husbands who don’t help “enough†not completely not help and seeing with my own eyes wives pulling more weight than anyone in the household especially after kids come I cannot agree with the above statement anymore. Though once upon a time I used to go by that set of rules.
You make a very good point HMF. It’s the women in our culture, the very women who should be complaining about the unfairness who perpetuate the system and carry it generation to generation. But (perhaps) your aunt may not have had the option to question it or the strength to change it and didn’t know better I do. I already see my mother and my aunts have broken some of the cycles with their daughters and I know I will with mine. It’s hard to break free from what has been ingrained into you as a “good Indian girl†all your life. Hell I’m a grown woman completely aware of my options and my ability to smell bullshit still often questions whether I can be a “good Indian girl†if I simply say Not to something disrespectful to me. It takes a while but it’s not impossible.
JOAT, SP, Desishiksa, and even PG, thanks for your perspectives. I think you guys probably got the wrong idea about the state of the women in my family from my post. Like I said, they are all educated (my paternal grandmother even could read/write English), and as far as my female cousins are concerned, they are all working professionals. I think they have been socially conditioned so that the behavior I described comes naturally at this point. Have they spoiled the men/boys in their life? Definitely. Would altering this behavior take a HUGE effort on their part? Yes. Do I want to see this end? Not really. Do I think I’ll marry someone who will do it to that extent? Probably not. Do I want my daughter to be raised that way? No. But I can tell you this…few women in my family are doormats. I honestly think that most of you (SP, Desishiksa, JOAT) would not find them different from women in your own families.
A funny story that my mom often relates…my parents were both medical residents in the late 70’s. Out of necessity (both being very busy and having small kids too) they devised a system wherein they took turns with cleaning, cooking, shopping, etc. When my paternal grandmother came from India to visit for the first time, she literally cried when she saw my dad doing dishes and cleaning up around the house. She begged him to come back to India and leave this life of drudgery behind. In the end she told my mom “listen, we’ll all take turns”. So my grandmother would do her day, then my mom would do her day, but on my dad’s day my grandmother would jump in and do his share too. And this continued the whole time she was there.
HMF: Are you for real? Indian patriachy is a ‘great white hoax”? Wow. You must be related to my former desi in laws…..
HMF: Are you for real? Indian patriachy is a ‘great white hoax”?
I dont believe he said that.
This is what he said
Sorry, HMF, I didn’t finish the quote properly: “great white hoax that America is more divorced from it.” But, isn’t it? I mean, outside of the upper middle class types that post here and assume their experience of India represents all of India. My mother tells me stories about how girl babies were killed in her part of India in her grandfather’s time. Were there similar killings in the US during the same time frame? I’m not being provocative; I genuinely want to know. It’s not an\ “who is better thing culturally,” it’s just recognizing a part of a culture and wanting to do something about it. I get irritated when people automatically assume Indian women are treated worse, because I see how beautifully my father treats my mother and how close they are. Still, there are parts of Indian culture that see a boy as infinitely superior, and I would argue, there is a more extreme version of patriarchy in some corners of Indian culture because of this. Why is this so hard to accept? It doesn’t mean India is a bad place, or the US is better. It just is, and I assume it will continue to change, as all things do.
Thanks for misquoting me again, that train ain’t never late.
You cannot compare the worst of one country to the average of another. Compare baby killings in rural India, to forced marriages and child abuse in Salt Lake City. One could say it’s the economical stimulus that forces parents to disregard their female children so callously. There could be a hundred reasons.
Obviously, I was making a comparison between middle class, city dwelling people of both. And the huge disparity you so desperately want to create, really isn’t there.
I thought of that to, that perhaps her husband would get mad if she didn’t offer me the seat. But that wasn’t the case, he wasn’t even around, it was the constant drilling that she probably got when she was young. But, the point is, before we (males) hit puberty, we’re being subtly informed that we’re superior. That’s gotta stop, and the woman is the first teacher of the child.
Yeah, well at least I correct myself and apologize. How many on this board regularly do that?
My in laws were middle class and it didn’t stop my ex-husband or his educated sister from being an ass about gifts at the time of my wedding. I’m sorry, but as a woman, I note there is a disparity between the two cultures, both in positive and negative ways. My mother notes this, my grandmother notes this, my female cousins note this, and I am not the first Indian woman who has noted this. Why this personal experience should be discounted is beyond me. Why are so many females aborted among the middle classes if there is not some cultural founding, among the middle class, to the idea that females are inferior? Yes, patriarchy exists in the US, it exists in India, and even among the middle class in India, it takes forms I find completely and utterly stifling. I’m glad I didn’t have to deal with it growing up.
And you know, as woman, I’m not trying to create a huge disparity between the two countries. It just make me incredibly, well sad, that when women bring things up about patriarchy in India, they run up against national pride.
Does anyone else find “it’s the women in our culture who perpetuate patriarchy” comments kind of hilarious? I mean, yeah, I get the point. Still, it’s hilarious given the context. Next time you are favored, boys, try not giving in so easily.
See, this is probably what I’m talking about. The American way is, if two couples are going out to dinner, the couple who own the car will sit in the front, and the couple who are their guests will sit in the back. The desi way is that the two men will sit in the front and the two women will sit in the back. I’m comfortable with both, depending on the context.
I always give in. It’s just too easy.
Cute, Amitabh. I’d probably give in, too 🙂
It’s not national pride. I concede a disparity, just not such a wide one, when comparing say middle class US and middle class Indian families. I’d say if you compare rural america to middle class urban india, you’d find more patriarchy on the bible belt side.
Every man was once a boy. When you’re done laughing, think about that statement a few times.
How many on this board regularly give themselves the opportunity to do so?
I forgot the main impact of this story…naturally my mom couldn’t sit back and watch her MIL do so much work, so my mom would have to jump in and take over for my grandmother…so my grandmother, without ever ordering my mom to do anything, very cleverly subverted the system so that my dad did nothing and my mom did twice the work. But my mom laughs about it now.
Amitabh and HMF,
Neither of you are in a position to assert that patriarchy in America and patriarchy India are equivalent in their effects on women. You’re not on the receiving end. While I appreciate your points about women perpetuating these systems (the same women who are formed by them, after all), and that patriarchy is alive and well in the States, living and working in both countries is simply not the same for a woman. Life in North America is vastly superior.
I recently had to immerse myself in Indian life in order to conclude some ugly legal/bureaucratic stuff surrounding the estates of relatives. I took care of most of the work myself, and this fact was of great surprise to most of the older Indian males I had to wrangle with. The only card I had to play was the ‘powerful and culturally progressive North American’ card – and let me tell you, I played it. I had to. Otherwise I would have had to put up with endless comments about inappropriate dress (jeans??), questions about why my relatives weren’t helping me (I have very few who are alive), whether I am married, etc. As it was, I had to listen to Indian men (the educated lawyers, accountants, bank officials I was dealing with) condescend to me, cut me off repeatedly in mid-conversation, dismiss my opinions, and simply not listen. Take a look at a bloody Indian street, for God’s sake – eighty percent male populated. You know why? Women are given a rough ride everywhere they go in India. No wonder they want to stay inside.
My mother, who retired there because of family, now resorts to the ‘poor little me, a woman alone’ card in order to get things done – the traditional tactic of females in an oppressive, traditional society. It’s embarrassing. Over here she was an independent working woman who didn’t have to use that line of approach. I was also told by several people that it is nearly impossible for a single woman to find an apartment for herself in India. Christ – if that isn’t the measure of neck-deep patriarchy I don’t know what is. What’s the message? YOU ARE NOT A PERSON IN YOUR OWN RIGHT (and if you claim you are you are probably a whore). Do you really think this sort of madness is pervasive in North America?
“Dude” — see where you contradict yourself above? You say you want to hear from women who are “happy” with that situation, then in the next sentence you say you can’t think of a single woman who isn’t “complaining” about their spouses lack of help. Key word – complaining. Complaint means not happy. That is why they are complaining about it — they ain’t “ok” with it.
DQ. I can vouch for that — several times over. Seen it happen to me and to female Indian citizens as well.
In USA we have laws, a social system and the general culture behind us. In India, laws are in place for women’s right, but the social system and culture(s) is/are not.
When my cousin was a victim of domestic violence her entire family said divorce the brute IMMEDIATELY. (yesterday, if possible).
There was no talk of “pati vrata dharma”, wife’s duty, toleration, mediation, compromise, waiting, working things out, “log kya kahenge?” (what will people say?), what Aunti Chameli or the chai walla down the road will think, etc. It was a done deal – “divorce the haramzada and get the hell out while you can”. All her sisters and brothers offered their homes to her as a haven. The social system, the culture and her family and friends, – the entire society was behind her.
big Big BIG BIG difference!
I’ve seen similar situations alot. What strikes me is why a woman would sympathize more with a man (her son) than with a woman (her dear bahu, daughter-in-law). Surely to have the work equally divided is only fair. Why would she want to see her daughter-in-law unfairly and overly burdened? Where is the respect for womanhood and the pain of childbirth?
I tell you, these are the things about Indian culture that made me very depressed over there. Life appeared so unfair to women and I found myself feeling sad seeing this very same type of thing again and again and again. For the life of me I just could not get it.
I just can’t get why a mother would object and “cry” seeing her son doing simple household chores — but I have seen it, lived through it and it’s very real.
Ours is a very culturally and ethnically mixed group. It’s always interesting to see when we have big gatherings — how the Indian families, couples act compared to the non-Indian (latino, euro, north american, black, white, etc). The Indians are distinguished by the women being expected by their men to tend to the hosting, cooking, serving and kids. Very rarely do you see Indian men stepping up in such situations to take on these roles, and they kind of look on in a daze seeing the non-Indian men changing babies diapers while their wives are chatting with friends.
Being the observer of human psychology that I am, I usually sit off in some corner analysing the whole thing — trying to come up with theories explaining “why”.
Of course I’ll have to clarify this with “not all Indians” are like that. We already know that. But considering the comments above – and that by Indians only – I think it’s safe to say that we all know, given a social situation of Indian families mixed with non-Indian families, the non-Indian families (western?) will appear to have more “fair” and “equal” distribution of domestic type duties between the sexes.
Of course the circles I move in are religious in nature, so perhaps the Indians in those circles might be more “conservative” and “traditional” than the circles that you all are moving in.
DQ, I never asserted that or even broached that issue.
Amitabh – very sorry – I didn’t read your comments as carefully as I should have. I was just astounded at the MD/HMF debate and thought you were mixed up in it. Again, apologies.
You know what we could really use right now? Some farting elves. Just the thing to cut this toxic tension. The gas they pass…well, it’s a thing of booty.
PG, aren’t you affiliated with a Hare Krishna-type group? In my experience, strict Vaishnavas like the Hare Krishnas are a lot more socially conservative than other Hindus. Maybe the Indians I associate with are a bunch of freaks, but the Indian men I know are pretty good about doing their fair share when it comes to childcare/housework, and my family’s temple has female directors, male cooks and cleaners, and no gender segregation.
Amitabh, you say that you wouldn’t want your daughter to be oppressed by patriarchal custom, yet you don’t have any problem with your female contemporaries serving and deferring to their male relatives. Since you think patriarchal practices are passed from one generation of women to the next, with men simply as passive bystanders (something I don’t buy, by the way), how is your future daughter going to avoid being inculcated into a patriarchal mindset by women your own age?
But rural American Bible belters and urban Indian middle class are both minorities in their respective countries. Therefore, the patriarchy of the Americans and the “gender equality” of the Indians are minorities whereas the opposite of both in each repsective country is the major predominant mood. In other words, it might be said that there is more patriarchy in India and more gender equality in America.
As someone who has lived extensively in both areas — I would say from my experience the “gender equality” you find in Indian urban centers is in the work place — more women are professionals there. But in the home, a wife is still a “bahu” — roti banao! While the husband is still a son (refer to posts number 360 and 371 above to understand what that means).
Same s**t, different toilet only Sir!
Even though most middle class urban Indian families have paid domestic helpers, still, the majority of cooking is expected to be done by the wife, bahu. She is the one expected to assist her saas or the domestic helper in the kitchen when she comes home from work, not the husband. I have seen this in homes of PhD’s. It’s part of the protocol in “joint family” living. Nuclear family living may be different. I’ve been in a few of those homes too, not many, but some. I didn’t see a difference in this dynamic though.
However, the family feels they are very progressive if the bahu is a doctor or some kind of professional. Nevermind the stereotypical protocol she has to follow at home.
I’ve only seen one man in India cleaning his infant’s pooey butt. And I’ve seen lots of fathers with infants, so I think that says something.
I agree, cannot compare US to India — the cultures are very different. Opposite poles almost.
Not “Hare Krishna”, otherwise known as ISKCON, but I have friends in that cult and have been around it alot. They have a male dominated bent to them, though they’ve improved in the past couple of decades.
The “hare krishnas” took alot of really, really, really, bad stuff from Indian culture — along with some good. One of the bad things was the sexism, at a time when America was getting over it really rapidly.
Regarding male cooks in temples – in India that’s all I’ve seen, women don’t really “cook” in the temples in India – they help out by cutting up subzi and stuff, but the main, daily cooks are men. That’s another form of gender bias and discrimination – if you read the history of various temples and the communities/cultures/priestly families surrounding them, you will find alot have rules against allowing women to be official pujaris or cooks for God/Goddess in the temple – stringing garlands and “helping” in the kitchen is fine though, as well as being on the board of directors or whatever. However, in all your travles around India, how many female “priests” (pujaris” have you seen in the temples? Very few, in very small mandirs, for me.
So what’s your problem, PG? Ja, apni zindagi jee. Your obsession with our barbaric and horrible ways is getting really old. I’ve never heard you say anything good about India or Indian culture.
Amba, I never said men were passive bystanders. We are part of the whole system, obviously. As for having a daughter, I can only speak hypothetically. The way that my daughter would avoid being inculcated with a patriarchal mindset is because society itself is gradually changing. The patriarchy which still exists in my family, for example, is a pale shadow of what it was 2 generations ago. Of course, as her dad, I’d try to make sure that she’s raised in equality with her brothers. That’s about it.
PG,
At least you are now qualifying your statements ! “Of course I’ll have to clarify this with “not all Indians” are like that”
Amitabh,(#347)
Just because a system is imbalanced in your favor or does not does not impact you personally in a negative way is not necessarily equivalent to your not wanting it to change.Basic humanity? Otherwise we would never have had abolitionists , Gandhi would not have protested against “untouchability” ,Schindler would not have helped the Jews .Extreme examples,I know but hopefully they convey my point.
Good point. And this also applies to the laws against untouchability, child labor etc.
There is probably no culture on earth that mistreats women as badly as hindu brahminical culture. There are hindu fundamentalists today who are even keen on reviving the demonic practice of widow burning (Sati) that had been banned by the British in the 19th century.
PG, the temple my family frequents was founded by Indo-Guyanese (although about half the people that go there now are from the Desh), so the presence of male cooks, cleaners etc. isn’t due to orthodox purity rules – there are women who do those jobs too. As for female pujaris, I’ve never encountered any, but so what? Orthodox Judaism, Catholicism and many sects of Protestantism don’t allow female clergy either. Hinduism isn’t uniquely patriarchal in that regard.
PG:
From your comments, it seems that contact with South Asia was disagreeable to you. Nevertheless, this contact seems to have defined a major chunk of your life experience, and you are unable to walk away from this forum. How do you resolve this dilemma? What’s your story?
Actually PG , you may want to broaden your horizons a little
Please check this out
PG — religious patriarchy cuts across all major religions. The standard reason is that women are too impure at that time of the month. Or in general, really. Read the Old Testament, there’s much worse misogyny in there.
Amitabh – your story about grandma subverting gender equal roles at home rings SO true! It’s all about shaming, and that’s how traditions are maintained. DQ – I nodded my head many times reading about your experience in desh, particularly the cutting off mid-sentence, dismissing, etc etc. When I had to rent my own place in Delhi you wouldn’t believe how the landlords behaved, practically wouldn’t talk to me unless I came there with a Male Relative, and then spoke only to said relative, wouldn’t treat me as an adult even though I was paying above market rate in a nice neighbourhood. Again – those of you who believe in abstract similarities in patriarchy across cultures should definitely experience life as a woman in Indian society, even among well off, well educated folks.
Oh, and btw, the district with the worst or near-worst male to female birth ratio in India (a sign of female foeticide) is a wealthy one in South Delhi.
Ok, I have to put in another of my two cents here. I think patriarchy in the US is much more prominent in the workplace. I find myself and my female colleagues constantly dealing with crap that male doctors don’t have to deal with–from patients, from other doctors, from nurses, from patient’s families. We just don’t get the same respect. Patients sometimes call me “little girl”. I doubt this would not happen to a female doctor in India. So…I sympathize with people who had to put up with crap for being a woman in India, but I put up with a lot of patronizing shit here. It just presents itself differently in the two countries.
Runa, that was the point I was trying to make earlier, too. It’s not about whether you’ll have a daughter in the future or not, but about a basic desire for fairness.
As are you not in a position to assert, completely anyway, why men attain positions of “superiority” You say vastly superior, I appreciate your opinion, but maybe my data is skewed? I have female cousins that live in Bangalore, and sure, they may not to get to wear miniskirts and tank tops, and stay out until 2 am, but they can work, they can drive, they text much faster than their American counterparts, they hang out with their friends… I know of a group of female students living in the Koramangla district, by themselves…
I will however, even concede their freedoms are greatly infringed upon by their parents, as compared to their brothers. It just seems whenever this topic comes up, women yell “But they burn babies!” Those are crimes. Not patriarchy, crimes. murder. And who’s going to deny that crimes should be stopped?
“I think patriarchy in the US is much more prominent in the workplace.
Desishiksa, I’ve definitely noticed that women in the US have to deal with assumptions of inferior intelligence that Indian women rarely do, which is odd. No Indian woman is told she isn’t smart enough to be good at maths and science, just that a)she shouldn’t get ahead of her husband in her ambitions and b) always put home and family before her career. But I’ve also heard enough stories from friends and family about women who get ordered around and treated condescendingly and taken less than seriously in workplaces in India. And there’s very open discrimination against hiring young married women or marriageable ones because they are assumed to be hanging around only till they have kids. I think there are attitudes and there are actual legal and institutional barriers for women in workplaces, and while the latter may be more prominent in India, the former is more jarring in the US. Have you worked in both contexts?
HMF, you say: “It just seems whenever this topic comes up, women yell “But they burn babies!” Those are crimes. Not patriarchy, crimes. murder.”
They burn babies? No, actually, many of ours consciously abort their female babies. That’s something to be worried about, and that’s not just crime and murder because it’s so normalised, because it’s on the basis of gender, because you can get it done at posh clinics in fancy neighbourhoods and it doesn’t have the same social stigma as murder. It’s not like someone just up and decided to kill their kid some day. And it’s not just women who find this abhorrent, thankfully, but most right-minded men too. I fail to see how anyone could see such crimes as unrelated to patriarchy. Though I do think that things are getting better for young adult women with careers, and they are gaining more independence and respect, and women like the cousins you mention in Bangalore are probably not seen as an oddity as they would have been 20-30 years ago.
I think it’s healthy, though, to be able to discuss serious flaws in our society and communities without getting defensive or conflating such critiques with broad-brush prejudices about “backwardness” that firangs may hold about India, as suggested by your use of the charged phrase “they burn their babies.”
I was talking about statements made about generations ago. In the early to mid 1900’s how would they know before hand, to decide to abort? And like I said, I just think my data is skewed, I have no direct contact with any rural or village communities.
I think it’s healthy too, but all too often I see those critiques not being made in and of themselves, always in comparison to how great it is US. And it’s always squarely placing the blame on men, exclusively. Where as I mentioned earlier, that’s simply too… simplistic.
HMF, I don’t think I brought up stuff that happened generations ago, and most of the commenters on this topic have been fairly nuanced and on-topic. I don’t see much reason to tie reasonable and factually-based critiques with some sort of wider worrying American superiority contest (believe me I have tons of critiques of American society on feminist grounds too – I just don’t think it’s anywhere near as frustrating and downright unpleasant for a woman like me to live in as Indian society, and I’ve tried both).
In the 1900s, and actually just ten years ago in my great-aunt’s neighbourhood actually, girl babies weren’t aborted of course, they were just not fed and left to die.
You are right, I wouldn’t believe :p
One possibility is that there could be something else relevant to the situation that you are missing. Maybe the coldness doesn’t ALL have to do with you being a woman… There could’ve been other reasons you didnt realize. And this is Delhi, you are talking about. I’m pretty sure a person of the female gender talking/negotiating with landlords should be fairly common. Heck, I’m positive there should even be a lot of female landlords in town.
PG is back!!!
Random, have you lived in Delhi and tried to rent a place? I did, for a couple of years. Care to fill me in on the “something else I was missing”? Can you point me to the numerous enlightened female landladies you have in mind? (I met a couple – they were just as conservative as the men in this regard). My broker told me quite explicitly after the first week of failures that women who want to rent places on their own, i.e. not paying guest accommodations or student houses with several others, are generally suspected of being hookers, in fact he had a lot of landlords say no right away when he mentioned it was for a single woman, and told me I should consider staying with a family, even after he explained that I was a very respectable Indian woman. The landlord behaviour wasn’t “coldness” either, it was backtracking at best, rudeness and condescension at worst. At the end, I had to take my parents with me, and they had to say they were responsible for me, even though I was almost 30.
It’s so delightful to be told by someone who wasn’t there that you must have been imagining things or failed to understand.
Not you, but this comment in particular did, My mother tells me stories about how girl babies were killed in her part of India in her grandfather’s time. Were there similar killings in the US during the same time frame?
That’s fucked up. But like I said, I’ve never heard of anything remotely close to that happening, in the areas Bangalore I originally hail from. So I accept my data is just skewed to the progressive side.
Random, have you lived in Delhi and tried to rent a place? I did, for a couple of years. Care to fill me in on the “something else I was missing”? Can you point me to the numerous enlightened female landladies you have in mind? (I met a couple – they were just as conservative as the men in this regard). My broker told me quite explicitly after the first week of failures that women who want to rent places on their own, i.e. not paying guest accommodations or student houses with several others, are generally suspected of being hookers, in fact he had a lot of landlords say no right away when he mentioned it was for a single woman, and told me I should consider staying with a family, even after he explained that I was a very respectable Indian woman. The landlord behaviour wasn’t “coldness” either, it was backtracking at best, rudeness and condescension at worst. At the end, I had to take my parents with me, and they had to say they were responsible for me, even though I was almost 30.
It’s so delightful to be told by someone who wasn’t there that you must have been imagining things or failed to understand.
One of my relatives went to a posh South Delhi neighborhood to rent a place, had tea and polite conversation with the landlord, all the terms were agreed upon, when he got up to leave and shook the landlord’s hand, he gave his full name (very Muslim sounding) and the Landlord told him that he could not rent to a Muslim. I have also heard similar stories from other Muslims.
DQ said..
It could have something to do with an ego clash, etc depending on the dynamics of your interactions. But honestly, I dont think all those people behave like that with just about every woman they find. Do you really think no man ever does those things to another man? Most women I know don’t necessarily face that kind of shit all the time.
This is an interesting point. idk abt the figure of 80% but your observation has some truth to it. Getting around to places is not as convenient and simple in india as in the US. So, as a thought experiment, take a couple that doesnt have a private vehicle. In such a situation for example the man probably bothers getting stuff like groceries, lets say, 80% of the time because it mite even be physically strenuous and not as plain as driving over to a store in your car. Things like that could be the cause for the uneven ratio of sexes seen on the streets, etc. Its not fair to explain this by saying its because women are given a rough ride everywhere. you just sound terribly bitter for some reason.