Here is question 9 in the 2010 U.S. Census:
The ‘boxed’ options for race include several different kinds of Asian. “Chinese,” “Vietnamese,” “Korean,” and “Japanese” are fairly predictable Asian nationalities, rightfully listed. The census uses “Asian Indian,” presumably to differentiate from “Native American” or “American Indian,” but interestingly, hints that “Pakistani,” (and by extension, “Bangladeshi” and “Sri Lankan”) would go under “Other Asian.”
Obviously, for Sepia Mutiny, which has always defined itself as an inclusive blog for the “South Asian” diaspora, this divison of the South Asian community is a little frustrating. How am I, whose family all originate from what is now Pakistan, of a different racial background from a Mohajir Pakistani, whose family all originated in what is now India? What does it mean to ask a question concerning “race,” and then lists three definite categories that might be understood as “racial,” only to then list nine further options, most of which are clearly nationalities, not “races”?
This is a discussion post. I am curious whether readers have read any backstory on how the census might have arrived at this rather idiosyncratic way of dividing up the communities from the Indian subcontinent? (The Census has a “Race and Ethnicity Advisory Committee” with an “Asian” sub-group. However, I haven’t been able to find much evidence of discussion over categories at Census.Gov. Most of the committee’s focus, perhaps rightly, seems to have been on making sure everyone has the opportunity to fill out a census form.)
Another discussion-related question: anyone want to speculate on how or whether this division on the census form might matter for the South Asian community down the road?
Finally, for readers from Pakistani, Bangladeshi, or Sri Lankan backgrounds, who have received the census form — are any of you thinking of checking “Asian Indian”? Since the census allows us to fill out more than 1 box under race, is anyone thinking of filling out both “Asian Indian,” and “Other Asian”?
UPDATE: A nice op-ed by Susan Straight on the evolution of Census race categories is here. She doesn’t focus on the “Asian Indian” question in particular, but it’s a good read.
I hate it when I have typos. Like an earlier poster mentioned, in the prvious census some South Asians classify themselves as “white” on census bureaus. Some South Asians do not view themselves as being part of the greater Asian Pacific American community. Many “obvious” Asian groups from East Asian sometimes do not consider Indians as “Asian” since racial classifications vary between the UK and US.
Interesting, in UK we are all Asians. But UK-Indians (Hindus and Sikhs) lately wanted to differentiate and demanded to be labeled by their religion instead, which frankly is how South Asians are defined in their home countries.
Actually we’re primarily defined by our mother-tongues. Then religion.
untill you try to marry teh daughter of a family of a differnet religion. then its game over.
There is no unity among South Asians in America. Case in point, I wanted to attend a Bhangra event, but since it was deemed a Sikh event, my Muslim friends and I were discouraged from attending.
I have never walked into a Hindu temple in America, unlike in India, where I wouldn’t feel uninhibited to do, here people would not take kind to a stranger entering these close knit immigrant houses of worship. Since 9/11, many mosques now host an annual open house to non-Muslims. In India, the anonymity of entering a house of worship is wonderful. Here in America, South Asians seem somewhat at times more tribal and obsessed with preserving some pristine recollection of the old country.
Really? I have people ask me all the time if there are any Hindu temples nearby. My response is always “Hell if I know.” Not because I don’t want them there, but because I honestly don’t know. I never got the impression that people wouldn’t want to share their customs with anyone who is interested. As long as they’re respectful why would anyone care?
‘ Actually we’re primarily defined by our mother-tongues. Then religion.
untill you try to marry teh daughter of a family of a differnet religion. then its game over.”
What’s up with all the hierarchical categorizing…. couldn’t more than one category be equally important to a person?
it could be, but it generally isnt.
” What’s up with all the hierarchical categorizing…. couldn’t more than one category be equally important to a person?
it could be, but it generally isnt.”
I think in India, who one marries, for example, has to do with many different factors– language, religion, caste, class, education, where they are from. How would a, let’s say, Brahmin upper-class English/Hindi speaking family react if their highly educated daughter or son wanted to marry a barely educated someone from Brahmin, lower-class Marathi speaking family?
its all better than marrying a muslim. they would rather you marry an inanimate object than a muslim.
Puli, what’s up? Is your life now taking the Hindi movie twist—you’ve met someone, she’s interested, but the parents won’t give their blessing?
no. nothing like that. its just my observation and experience. there is a clear heirarchy.
I’m wondering if they can use this information against us at some point in the future if for example they identify Pakistan with terrorism, can they kick out all Pakistanis? They did that to the Japanese after Pearl Harbor.
a distinct possibility. it will seem reasonable to most ppl as well.
A similar sentiment was expressed in responses to a recent SM article about anglicized names – it had to do with the Calcutta model who is an anglo Indian.
That’s usually because 8 times out of 10 marrying a Muslim means becoming a Muslim.
And 9 times out of 10 it means your kids end up being Muslim. The other 1 out of 10 will be an atheist.
At least with my parents the concern is more about how the grandkids will be raised than anything else.
re: the commenters who identify as both South Asian and white on the census, how does that work? I’m genuinely curious – are you going by the Caucasian/Mongoloid divisions, because frankly that’s rather out of date…
I marked Asian Indian on the census, and I have to say, rather selfishly, that I was glad that I didn’t have to mark “Asian” and then write in “Indian” in the box, because, having grown up in NorCal, I simply don’t identify as Asian…
For me, it’s about how you’re perceived by others. I self-identify as white b/c I’m usually assumed to be Greek or Italian.
One parent is South Asian and the other parent is White. . .?
Seems pretty simple to me.
Comment 54 is not by me as I have commented with the user name san previously. No big deal but to clarity, probably won’t check back if it should happen other times
UKPunjabiBoi wrote:
UKPunjabiBoi, I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but there’s a new rule on Sepia Mutiny. Anytime someone says that they can pass for some non-desi ethnicity, like Greek or Italian, they have to post a picture of themselves here.
UKPunjabiBoy
are you Indian or Pakistani? Are you Hindu, Muslim, or Sikh?
Some Kashmiris are fair skinned to the point of having light eye color, red hair or blonde hair, and sone even have freckles. Pushtuns can be white in appearance. However, in one family skin color varies even among siblings.
Many of Pakistan’s leading imams tend to be really white. The Aga Khan and his family are essentially white now despite being of Iranian heritage due to intermarriage with goris. I am Shia, but I tend to be biased toward their spiritual leader of the Khoja/Nizari Ismailis of Pakistan and Gujarat.
Like you, I’m fair in skin color and while in the US Navy, people thought I was Italian and one fellow sailor thought it was weird for a white dude to attend the Friday khutba and jumaah prayer.
I never understood why the sari fell out of favor in Pakistan while Muslims in Bangladesh prefer the sari over the shalwar kameez now deemed the “national” dress of Pakistan. Saris were deemed “unpatriotic” by Fatima Jinnah, who once wore them, she is the “mother of Pakistan” by labelling the garment Hindu dress.
However, it was Muslims who introduced the petticoat to the sari, making it suitable for Muslim female attire.
Thanks, Amardeep and SM, for doing a piece on the Census. A number of organizations around the country are engaging in census outreach and advocacy to make sure that South Asians (who have been historically underrepresented, along with other people of color and immigrants) are counted this year. The race question is an extremely important one but it can be challenging to figure out also.
For more information, we invite the SM community to visit SAALT’s website, where you’ll find:
-A factsheet (in English and in South Asian languages) on the Census, including information about the race question: http://saalt.org/attachments/1/Census%202010_SAALT%20Factsheet_English.pdf -A letter from the Census Bureau in response to SAALT’s questions about how race responses will be coded: http://www.saalt.org/attachments/1/SAALT%202010%20Census%20Questions.pdf -General info about the Census: http://www.saalt.org/pages/Census-2010.html
Thank you! And don’t forget to send in your census form by April 1st!
I just can’t help but feel sorry for South Asians who list themselves as white. Seems sad.
FYI – Whether from the nation of India or Pakistan:
“…In some major respects, American color prejudice indiscriminately embraces everything non-“white.” According to Harold Isaacs there are also shades of prejudice as various as the shades of color, and they flicker often according to place, person, and circumstance. And it is “black” – wherever it comes from – that sets the racial-color counters clicking the most violently. The South Asian, shading along a wide spectrum from fair to brown to black, arouses these reactions in varying measures.
For example, President Lyndon Johnson was reported to have said while canceling the visits of the heads of state from India and Pakistan in 1965: “After all, what would Jim Eastland (the conservative senator from Mississippi) say if I brought those two niggers over here.” (Quoted in Richard Goodwin, “The War Within,” The New York Times Magazine, 21 August 1988, P.3. It was reported that the American President decided to cancel the visits of Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri of India and President Ayub Khan from Pakistan when the two countries expressed opposition to U.S. policies in Vietna…
…Sociologists have noted that oftentimes the issue of color in relation to South Asians in America rises in a setting of great mutual self-conscious sensitivity: South Asians watch for it to come up, Americans are embarrassed that it does. Currently, South Asians may not be a clear-cut case of “black” in US consciousness, but they are definitely “other,” which is one reason why Mazumder, as well as other intellectuals, believe that only if South Asians develop a broader consciousness of themselves as people of color will they be able to participate in a genuine struggle for social justice.” http://www.indolink.com/displayArticleS.php?id=051605113928
FYI Arabs are the not quite white other too: “Although the U.S. census classifies Arabs as white along with the European majority, a sizable number believe they are not treated as whites, but more like such other minorities as Asians Americans and Hispanic Americans (see “Not Quite White: Race Classification and the Arab American Experienceâ€). Not surprisingly, there is no consensus among all generations of Arab Americans on this question, nor is there yet a move in the federal government to measure Arabs separately.” http://www.aaiusa.org/foundation/358/arab-americans
Not Quite White: Race Classification and the Arab American Experience
I have a feeling though since the Middle East is dominated by Arabs, including Pakistanis may increase competition for quota positions. Which may be in the end better for NRIs if South Asian no longer included Pakistanis. Plus with Pakistan being so linked with terrorism, it may be better if Indians are in a separate category from Pakistanis.
“After the elections of 1988, for example, when many community activists mobilized around the presidential campaigns, especially that of Rev. Jesse Jackson, the new visibility of Arab Americans in both parties was rewarded by appointments to state, county and municipal boards and commissions. Just in San Francisco and Fairfax County, VA alone, Arab Americans were offered close to a dozen posts ranging from commissions on EEOC, planning, aging, education, human rights and economic development. Since in most communities such boards have unofficially designated slots for minority representation, Arab Americans were able to insert themselves into such informal public service “quotas,†establishing a new reality for future politicians to sustain….”http://www.aaiusa.org/foundation/355/not-quite-white
Mustafa–Indian and Sikh.
“hints that “Pakistani,†(and by extension, “Bangladeshi†and “Sri Lankanâ€) would go under “Other Asian.†“
This from someone that goes one to use the term “Indian subcontinent” in the very same OP…
I was going to disagree and insist that – PC or not – it is clear that “Asian Indian” is supposed to refer to anyone from the subcontinent. But I just looked up the definitions on the census website, and it turns out that you’re correct: Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis, etc. are all supposed to mark “other Asian.” Which surprises me… probably this will result in much confusion.
“How am I, whose family all originate from what is now Pakistan, of a different racial background from a Mohajir Pakistani, whose family all originated in what is now India?”
Well, remember that the census lets everyone mark whatever race(s) they feel like, so you’ll be different exactly to the extent that you feel you are different and mark different answers. If you all mark the same responses, then there will be no difference.
Which is how race works in general: it’s a social construct, not a pedigree. It doesn’t matter if your family originated on Mars: if you think you’re in race X, and everyone else agrees you’re in race X, then you’re in race X. That really is all there is to it. And for good reason: racial systems that require knowing a person’s distant ancestry are not useful.
“What does it mean to ask a question concerning “race,†and then lists three definite categories that might be understood as “racial,†only to then list nine further options, most of which are clearly nationalities, not “racesâ€?
Nationality and race are not mutually exclusive categories, especially in certain parts of the world. That’s not to weigh in on any particular question there, but I personally would hesitate before insisting to anyone from the countries in question that they don’t comprise a race because they’re also a nationality. If, for example, the Japanese and Chinese say they are different races, then they are different races. And not just as a matter of practicality. That’s how social constructs work.
puli, i don’t think that is the case in india, although it may be more likely the case in the states. depending on which city you grew up in, and the circles within which you travel, inter-religious marriages in india are not that uncommon these days.
i don’t find this to be the case in the hindu temples i visit. i have found that when non-hindus come to visit, most people are quite friendly, or at the very least, indifferent. on the other hand, if you go to e.g. kerala, many temples will not let you in unless you’re hindu (or, i guess, look plausibly hindu)
btw, when is the deadline for the census? i have not yet received it and wondering whether i should bother requesting one…
On the internet no one knows you are a dog? Why is it there is such a regular occcurence of posts where a set point of view is espoused using an absurd suggestion that the viewpoint is coming from a given community?
ak wrote:
April 1.
Sameer,
When my grandfather immigrated here in the 1950s, him and his fellow Afghans were considered “black” in Oklahoma.
As for South Asians claiming whiteness, in 2000 most Afghan Americans identified themselves as white, 98% to be in fact. This time around, I don’t think that will change much. Growing up in America, I’ve enjoyed the privileges of whiteness. In the US military people called Muslims and those confused for being Muslims (Hindus and Sikhs), they would call them derogatory names and assumed many were gay since men in South Asia and the Middle East show affection to one another in ways not expressed in North America. I would have to defend my community, and many were stunned that I was Afghan and so PC with the “enemy” which included Desis in their bigoted minds.
@UKPunjabiBoi: Until you post a picture of yourself, nobody in the comments is going to take you seriously when you say other British people think you look Italian. just fyi.
Also, Mustafa: I find it really interesting that your grandfather made his way from Afghanistan to Oklahoma, of all places. How did that happen? And was this before or after the 1952 reform law?
To Mustafa:
In Boston, we have a nice Pashtun community. All the Pashtuns that I have met are from Pakistan, however, and I don’t really get the impression that they are so enthused about the Indian community. Are you sure that you are whom you claim to be?
I have had Afghani friends in the past – all Tajik. They were definitely friendly towards Indians, to the extent that they’d attend Indian events. They are such a remarkable and good hearted people.
Boston,
Pushtuns that I know are from Afghanistan and we are pretty harsh on Pakistan’s interference with Afghan internal affairs. Yes, I am who I claim to be. My immediate family left Afghanistan before 1979 and our nationalism is not with Pakistan. Our identity is opposed to Pakistan, we are Afghans who have resisted foreign Punjabi occupation. I’m sorry, but that was how I was raised.
Pakistan gets no love from India, Iran, or Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the only nation to protest the admission of Pakistan into the UN. Kabul and Karzai are pro-Indian. Anyone who knows anything about Afghan nationalism is aware of this.
boston_mahesh wrote:
boston_mahesh, I’m just curious– how long have you been commenting on SM? In 2006, the BBC did a poll on global perceptions of India’s growing influence. According to the poll, 59% of Afghans and 71% of Iranians had a positive view of India.
Delurking for the first time. Been reading SM for a couple of years.
Love that we are talking about this. My favorite look into immigration history — easy to read interesting dissertation turned book — is by Dividing Lines by Daniel J. Tichenor. The top book on Amazon is by Zolberg. Zolberg covers the antebellum period better, but Tichenor’s account is much better for post 1900. I also liked Tichenor’s writing style better.
Also, many of you may have seen this, but it makes a great gift for that hard to please Indian (or other) parent (as a bound copy). It was also surprising and fascinating to me the first time I flipped through the pages. The original Census was a by product of classification that had to do with landowning right. White = right. Indians were counted as White until one day when that notion was challenged. I came across it early in the stages of my dissertation research on immigration and South Asian, spec. Indian people to the US / North America. (It’s been a while since I thought about this stuff, so I may have mispoken a touch. But see below for the source)
Here’s a synopsis: Echoes of Freedom, South Asian Pioneers in California 1899-1965
Bhagat Singh Thind, a native of Punjab, immigrated to America in 1913. Working in an Oregon lumber mill he paid his way through University of California, Berkeley and enlisted in the United States Army in 1917, when the United States entered World War I. He was honorably discharged in 1918. In 1920 he applied for citizenship and was approved by the U.S. District Court. The Bureau of Naturalization appealed the case, which made its way to the Supreme Court. Thind’s attorneys expected a favorable decision since the year before in the Ozawa ruling the same Court had declared Caucasians eligible for citizenship and Thind, as most North Indians, was clearly Caucasian.
http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/SSEAL/echoes/chapter10/chapter10.html
MUSTAFA WROTE:
Boston, Pushtuns that I know are from Afghanistan and we are pretty harsh on Pakistan’s interference with Afghan internal affairs. Yes, I am who I claim to be. My immediate family left Afghanistan before 1979 and our nationalism is not with Pakistan. Our identity is opposed to Pakistan, we are Afghans who have resisted foreign Punjabi occupation. I’m sorry, but that was how I was raised.
Welcome to Sepia Mutiny. I wasn’t doubting you, friend. I respect you and your people very much. The Pashtuns have many nice quotes, and nice cultural practices that the world can benefit from, and a purity of personality, I think.
One of my Pashtun friends here are 3 brothers – all with the first name Mohammad. Their second names are their calling names. They are from the Mingora Swaat Valley area, and they’ve been here since August ’07. The two that I know are very polite, big-hearted, and fun-loving.
I hope that all your interactions with the Browns are sweet.
When filling out this Census, it disappointed me to find that there was no box to check for anyone of Hispanic ethnicity. I do realize that Hispanic’s are an ethnicity and not a race, but what are we supposed to mark? I feel like scribbling “Brown” over all of them. They seem to like labeling colors. Black/White
@92, Did you miss the question right before Race, where it asked if you were Hispanic or Latino. Yes, no, and then a bunch of check boxes for which type of Hispanic/Latino, if yes. And then a blank space for Other Hispanic/Latino?
The primary purpose of the census must not be overlooked. Even though the options in the form are flawed, their categorization of “Asian Indian” is to simply classify people from the indian sub continent. Being from India, we are identified for being of a certain mindset, mannerism, culture….etc which distinguishes asian indians from it’s neighbours. So imho, any national surrounding indian borders can identify themselves as non-asian indian, if they don’t hold an indian birth certificate. Asian Indian is a identity for ethnic indians until the human genome is sequenced & the indian diaspora torn apart into races.
What about Indians in the diaspora? What if your family has been in Guyana or Trinidad or Jamaica etc for over 5 generations? Are we still “Asian Indian” as if we have an fixed identity regardless of where we were born? It is insulting that we cannot call ourselves Caribbean, as that category counts as only “black” (untrue and inaccurate description of the Caribbean), and while we may be Indian, it is certainly not the same as South Asian (i.e., someone from the divided lands of the sub-continent).
My family is Pakistani-American, but we checked “Asian Indian”. Pakistanis and North Indians are not different racially at all. You cannot physically tell the difference between a Punjabi from Lahore vs. one from Amritsar. The census question seems to be confusing race and nationality. Pakistani is a nationality, not a race. Meanwhile “Hmong” which is also listed under “Other Asian” is an ethnicity which has no corresponding nationality associated with it.
I think the separation of “Pakistani” from “Asian Indian” is just political. I can understand why some Indian-Americans don’t want to be associated with Pakistan. After all they are the “model minority” and very different from those “terrorist muslims”. Some Pakistanis also think that they are Middle Eastern and not like those dark “kafir” hindus. However, this classification has no basis in reality. The reality is that all of us (Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis) are basically the same race.
Pakistan is mentioned under ‘Asian – other’. By that logic, Canada and England should be mentioned under ‘White – other’. btw, someone here said the deadline is April 1. That can’t be, as one of the questions ask how many people were in the house as of April 1. I don’t think there is a deadline, but if they don’t hear from you within a reasonable time, you can expect a knock on your door.
Kabir
Yeah, I think a lot of the categories in that question are more about ‘National Origin” rather than race. If it was soley racial, than Japanese and Korean aren’t different races, but they are listed separately on the census.
I think the options available were the best that they could really do, if they wanted to get an accurate picture of the demographics of the US. I guess its better than just having one Asian and Pacific Islander option. And they can always calculate the entire ‘South Asian” population by just grouping those who ticked Indian with those who had selected Pakistani , Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Nepali etc
Oh man do NOT let the Koreans hear you say that.
Kabir,
Pushtuns, Pakistan’s second largest group, are not Desis and we form the ethnic backbone of Afghanistan.
Desi Brit,
Koreans and Japanese are distinct East Asian ethnicities with some historical and linguistic similarities. But what you said would cause a riot in Koreatown LA, my hometown.