If you get a chance, check out the full slide show of the parade from this past weekend in Jersey that I wrote about in the previous post. In one or two of the pictures I observed a level of militancy and jingoism that made me feel uneasy. I am pretty far removed from such sentiment so I am not sure how strong such opinions are in Indian Americans. I believe nobody should ever parade children this way:
I want to stress that most of the pictures in the set are of perfectly appropriate displays. This one really threw me off though.
Seemingly anyone who considering Hinduism a salient identity. Not going any further than that since these conversational tangents tend to drag the thread off-topic.
I have absolutely no problem with anyone who considers Hinduism a salient personal identity. You were willing to throw out an accusation, and are now unable to back it up.
That’s inane. You’re conflating organizations that happen to be run by Hindus (and frequently deracinated Hindus who don’t particularly care about their religion much) with organizations that promote Hindu religious principles.
What are “Hindu” religious principles?
What gave you that idea? Is anybody who doesn’t shout that they are Hindu from their rooftops deracinated?
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blockquote> I have absolutely no problem with anyone who considers Hinduism a salient personal identity.
I ask all the keyboard activists here, what would you do if your Family was living in a tent outside Delhi for 20 years and no-one cared. Write a letter?
Why is it inappropriate to have your children carry your banner? If you don’t indoctrinate your kids, who will?
Well, this is what PA said
Why is it ok to indoctrinate kids with religious BS and not with nationalist BS ?. At least in this case, the kids (or their parents/grandparents) have been driven out of their homeland and it is perfectly valid for them to carry the banner.
@58
What I said:
What you quoted:
If you were a journalist, you’d be hauled before your editor for something that grotesque 🙂
It was a rhetorical question, but you help me make the point in my response. Calling attention to international situations can be used to build identities sometimes. Just like Christian fundamentalists will use attacks on Christians in India to foster their version of Christian identity, and Muslim fundamentalists will use the situation in Palestine to foster their version of Muslim identity, Hindutva people will use attacks on Hindus or Hinduism in other places in order to foster their version of Hindu identity. What is relevant is the impact of building that identity in different places.
In India or in Indian contexts, including in the diaspora, it is a grotesque mockery of any notion of social justice to argue that Hindutva attempts to build Hindu identity are more than an effort by an already powerful group to claim more power. Using the international solidarity argument to bolster Hindu movement building in India is not a social justice argument and in fact is subversive of ideas of social justice. Moreover, it is a disservice to the people that you are alleging you care about – whether the Hindu right is preying on American-born or emigre Hindus who may actually have been subject to some discrimination or pressure for being Hindu or Indian or otherwise or by pointing to violence and discrimination against Hindus in Bangladesh. It is the same way that the rhetoric of the Hindu right uses Muslim women – who ARE discriminated against – to attack Muslims and Islam in South Asia.
Or more provocatively, but imo just as accurately, You are making the same kind of argument as a White person in the United States who decided that attacks on White people in Zimbabwe justified the White power movement in the United states. It is gross.
Ponniyin, let me repeat: religious BS is different from religious supremacy BS. Not to mention that these posters are hardly what I would call nationalist, but that is not central to my point, and I don’t think nationalism is a laudable sentiment in the abstract, either.
That’s what she said.
Jyotsana, here is an interview with Bitta Karatey, a member of the “secular” JKLF.
Presenting the Burkini for your viewing pleasure..
Well in that case, you are probably not aware of what is praised during namaaz (I have no idea about aarti other than the girl I had crush on when I was at high school, it could potentially contain similar stuff).
If you do not consider that as religious supremacy BS (there is no God but one and only true god and some dude is the last and final prophet) then you are probably well indoctrinated with the “secular progressive” religion. :-)..
Again I emphasise that this is a very good question.
So, every Muslim and every Christian is, by definition, a raging bigot?
I am an atheist who would love to see the back of religion in our lives, and even I don’t believe that.
While the New Englander or Midwestern desi professional is still scared with the majority around them, even the common Jersey desi has found the confidence to be assertive. I have seen it time and time again how assertive Indians are in NJ when compared to rest of America.
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Floridian Uncle, I would love to read that essay if you have the time to write it.
Rahul you should read Art.30 before you turn blue in the face from all the shouting.
Take this college, my own, Loyola College, Chennai, whose stated mission is as follows,
Now in India you cannot by law set up an educational institution that proclaims its mission as follows,
All post-secondary educational institutions are subsidised in India by the UGC that pays a substantial part of the teachers’ salaries. There are also some egregious moves on the part of some minority squakuses to convert government founded institutions into wholly sectarian/minority institutions starting with the Aligarh Muslim University.
There has been a lot of argument over it and at one time it seemed almost inevitable. There are several other twists to this minority business. In India (either by law or precedent) a minority can be either a religious or a linguistic minority in a given state. So for a long time linguistic minorities have been setting up self-financed colleges in a few states. So you have a Gujarati (Hindu) run primary school in Chennai and a Tamil (Hindu) run engineerig college in Karnataka. But after the recent quota fight was concluded the central government also decided to exempt minority institutions from the obligation to reserve quotas for scheduled castes/tribes and backward classes. But in a move that raised alarm bells some provocateur decided that this exemption would not apply to linguistic minority run institutioin, only to religious minority run institutions. Further another twist in the law that the government is trying to squeak out of is that in Punjab, some NE States, and J&K Hindus are a minority. And in Kerala the Hindus are not an absolute majority simply being the largest single group, with the Christian run and Muslim run institutions running literal education empires in the many parts of the state.
As for the smart-aleck calling these kids and their parents KKK sympathisers, it is refreshing for a Hinduphile not to be called a Nazi. And anyway for the likes of Doc Anon given that the word Hindu itself is something cheaper than trash, let’s say Hindus and their friends (many of whom aren’t Hindu or of even any faith at all) bear the smear with pride.
The core issue here is, or rather, should be, the drafting of children in the process of promoting a cause. Whether the cause is worth promoting or not is a secondary issue and not really germane to Abhi’s post.
To what extent should children be indoctrinated or even implicated by their parents and community organizers in any political cause no matter how worthy the cause? The operative term is “political.” If these children were carrying a banner that said “I love my Hindu religion” or even “I love Hindutva” or something that was more self-expression than a politically motivated denunciation of an entire country, I don’t think Abhi would have found it newsworthy. Read what the banner says. It is a blanket denunciation of India’s secularism. My question is whether children should be taught or even allowed to say that.
As a parent, I was bothered by this picture. I was also bothered when I first heard my little daughter’s Israeli friend express fairly strong opinions about problems in that region. They were both ten years old at the time. If other parents are not concerned over this picture, I say “to each his own.” There is probably more than one rule book for parenting.
Hmm.. I am not the one doing the shouting here 🙂
What about the DAV schools? Whatever their mission proclamation, they are unabashedly vedic in their teaching mission. There are many, many other schools of that ilk all over the place, whether established by organizations, or as one-offs.
Paranoid Android, thanks for presenting a personal perspective that has details and facts. It’s enormously gratifying to hear the trajectory of Kashmiri pundit politics as you see it and particularly the expressions of sympathy for what happened in Gujarat and Orissa and the rejection of RSS politics that existed within the politics of the pandit community
At the same time, I want to know how those of us who do care about human rights, about South Asia, and about f-ked up situations in general can best understand the situation outside of a communally framed analysis of the situation – and in the long on all ‘sides.’ I think Rahul was right on in pointing out that the Indian state has failed both Kashmiri Hindus and Kashmiri Muslims and I would reprhase, still in the original meaning of what he said I think, and say that it has failed people in Kashmir as a whole, among many other people, as has the Pakistani state.
Being curious, what are the different strands now among the politics of the people that make up the Kashmiri pandit movement- I know in kashmir in general, there are autonomists, there are fundamentalists of several religion and national stripes, there are political operators and opportunists, and there are two massive states involved who use Kashmir as a ragdoll. But if you or anyone really could recommend any insightful authors that are analyzing and describing the politics of the situation and the political groups that make it up, I’d be grateful. Thanks.
They are whatever Hindutva advocates say they are, obviously. And take out those scare quotes, mister! We Hindus have textbooks we must
disfigurecorrect!Floridian:
This part of a procession was about Kashmiri Hindu Association. Parents of these kids are victims of the situation in Kashmir, they would have already overheard a lot of things that you would consider inappropriate for your kids.
Go to youtube and search for Blue star or 1984, check out a few hits. This bannar is nothing compared to the crap that you might find.
I do not think so. There is a context here – check out the following banner, that may close the loop for you.
Sure, as a parent only you know what is best for your kids, that does not make the parents of these kids any lesser parent than you are.
BTW: Are you Chachaji of yore ?
Personally I prefer “Not Anti-Hindu Implies Not India’s Secularism” 🙂 Or a series of banners:
“India’s Secularism Implies Anti-Hindu” “Anti-Hindu Implies Big Macs” “India’s Secularism Implies Big Macs”
QED
De facto pro-Hindu. Aspirational. Living document. Conflictedly liberal and social democratic. Too long.
You must be new around here. I have been the Floridian ever since I began commenting a few years ago. My point was the same as yours – that parenting is a personal matter. That’s why I said “to each his own.”
I do miss Chachaji, though. He was a scholar and a gentleman. If he was around, and maybe he is, he would have surely dug up some arcane fact from the Indian constitution or something equally ponderous to enrich the conversation around here.
cf. “circling the drain”. if you set the bar low enough, you will exceed it.
Not exactly – but thanks for the clarification.
Well.. 🙂 I do not miss him :), but I sincerely hope he is doing all right.
I agree with Sameer #18, but woh this is a popular debate….shows that Indians have a problem with secularism, or is it just that when abroad away from orginal culture,one feels insecure?
“Why on earth should there be affirmative action for poor people?? Blacks were mistreated in this country; the poor, not so much.”
My dad was once enamored of Communism (didn’t last for him and I subscribe to no isms or ists), so he had an interesting collection of writings on the “workers’ struggles” in the U.S. I think he was fascinated that this purported democratic cornupcopia had such a muddy underbelly in its labour relations history. Black AND poor was likely to be worse than white AND poor, or native American AND poor. But the poor always get screwed. Read “The Jungle” by Upton Sinclair? He originally wrote to expose the plight of the urban poor (immigrants, mostly Lithuanians, in this book) working in the slaughter houses, but the middle classes who bought the book fixated on the horros of the unhygenic meat industry. Naturally. That was the only thing that would affect THEM. All I can remember, aside from the graphically described animal slaughter==which unnerves me to this day == is that kids drowned in the mud outside the shacks and the parents wished they’d never left Lithuania, wherever that is.. It was Chicago but it sounded like a Mumbai slum during monsoon season, only much more hopeless, dirty and decrepit. Moving on to another burgeoning industry of the early 20th century, the steel mills, There is a case documented in the National Archives where the owners of a mill in the upper midwest actually locked the doors of room in the factory where a kids’ birthday party was underway (held on a weekend as i recall) when a fire broke out, the malicious action being provoked by an ongoing labor dispute.
Then there’s the Triangle Bldg. fire of New York is another case where class played a part. The characters who were responsible wrangled out of it and were actually operating another, similar factor only a few years later. Class all the way. These are just a few dramatic examples of classism at work. The conflict between workers (poor of all races) and the “corporate powers” of the day were often violent beyond belief, and whatever schooling the kids got was geered to make docile workers out them. The U.S. wasn’t as different from “undemocratic” countries as they like to think.
To this day class animosity drives policy and politics but not in obvious ways you’d find in other “undemocratic” countries. The poor get screwed all the time. Classism is what communism was supposed to “fix.” Not that it did.
Now I get it, the banner I mean. The most powerful person in India is a Christian, not to mention a woman and a white and a firangi The second most powerful person is a Sikh. Neither religion accounts for more than 2.5% of the population. India’s secularism must be anti-Hindu.
Rahul mere bhai, calm down. The Arya Samajis have claim to have nothing to do with mainstream Hinduism and have had themselves classified as a religious minority. The Ramakrishna Mission too tried to get itself classified similarly (and unsuccessfully) because the covetous eyes of one of the states (I think TN or WB) turned towards it, and the state in question attempted to take over its colleges and schools.
This is palpable nonsense. The finances of the state of Jammu & Kashmir are almost entirely underwritten by the Union government. Within the the state Jammu accounts for a disproportionately large share of revenues and disproportionately small share of expenditure. The Indian state has for several years allowed bigoted Islamicist sentiment to run riot within the Kashmir Valley. The interests of the Kashmiri Muslims within the Valley – the strident Hinduphobic, thuggish, fundamentalist ariety – have been pandered to for a long time. That is why last year when the same bigots attempted to shut down the Amarnath Yatra, Jammu erupted in protests.
Doc Am if this is your current state of knowledge the state of your ignorance must be terrible. Let’s put it simply for a community like the Kashmiri Pandits that has been butchered and driven out of its home and hearth, anything short of reparations and resettlement is an insult.
I am, and have been, calm. Are you sure you aren’t looking in the mirror? 🙂
So, you define away everybody who doesn’t conform to your view of Hinduism, be it the Arya Samaj (yes, I am aware it was a reform movement), or the Ramakrishna Mutt, and ignore the myriad other schools which recite Hindu prayers, and teach Hindu mythology as a part of “moral instruction” so you can focus on perceived injustices.
Not to mention the ostensible security, with the army running roughshod encountering, killing, raping, and pillaging Muslim civilians.
I think you got it wrong. It was a banner by Kashmiri Hindu Association – I would not blame Kashmiri Pundits if they are venting.
I’d have a lot more sympathy if the banner were carried by adults and simply read “Hinduism does not proselytize.”
BTW, what is India doing to preserve Hindu culture in Kashmir?
cf. “circling the drain”. if you set the bar low enough, you will exceed it.
Yep – I agree with you Rahul – comparing with ‘Blue-Star 1984 rappers’ would be setting the bar way too low.
“Now I get it, the banner I mean. The most powerful person in India is a Christian, not to mention a woman and a white and a firangi The second most powerful person is a Sikh. Neither religion accounts for more than 2.5% of the population. India’s secularism must be anti-Hindu.”
HAHAHAHAHAHA
That’s for them to tell. I have no idea. Going by the holy books it seems so.
So I just proved why the two are not so different.
Again, I see a very valid question from PA.
Ok, so you believe that Christians and Muslims are, by definition, bigots. Good to know. I see why you think it is a valid question then.
To answer PA’s question, I will feel sorry that their ability to perform evidence-based reasoning is being clouded when they don’t know different. But not as sorry as if they are taught that the world is out to get them.
And why do you consider arti and namaaz a more acceptable form of indoctrination? What makes them more acceptable, and lashing out against a country or policy less acceptable indoctrination for children? Because they are totally different. One is culturalization, the other is indoctrination. If there is one defining characteristic, culturalization is for something. Indoctrination is somehow, subtly, against something. That’s what makes one more acceptable than the other.
Hey Rahul, how are you doing? There was a post on Kipling the other day. I remembered reading T.S. Eliot on Kipling sometime in my previous life. Went back to it. “A versifier, not a poet,” said your Mr. Eliot about Kipling.
@131
On an aside, I want to respond to this comment from you three days ago, but I didn’t want to contribute to a second derailing of the thread on domestic violence. So I will respond here.
You said:
blog != post. If you take me at my original meaning, perhaps this thread, among many others, will clarify to you exactly how accurate my lazy equivocation was. Spriiingtiime…for Mooodi…in Guu-uuj-raaaat..
I have always felt this way, but obviously never articulated it in as beautiful a manner as Eliotji. H’nble members of the jury, I present for your perusal, Exhibit A: If, which will enjoy pride of place in any self-respecting annual high school magazine.
Doing great. One of these days, you should share your email address so I can take you up on your offer. What can I say? As a desi, I never forget a promise of hospitality 🙂
Enough. Seriously I (and the others that run this site) have had enough. We haven’t been enforcing our own comment policy for far to long because frankly we haven’t had time. That will hopefully change starting today. When we are disgusted by the comments on our own thread it is no longer fun to blog. Many of you are entitled to your views but are no longer welcome on any of my threads. I will strictly enforce the long standing comment policy (see the anti-secular part) and ban at the first offense. Recent comments have detracted greatly from the positive community aspects of this blog that I want to foster. Thanks.
Rahul, drop me a line at toobizzy4@yahoo.com and I will honor my invitation. Anyhow, getting back to the post, which is really about children’s involvement in political issues and not really about Hinduism or India’s secularism per se, there is an interesting phenomenon evolving in the diaspora. Religion has become the provider of culture. The Hindu temple has never been the center of social and cultural activities in India. It is strictly meant for religion. In the US, perhaps out of necessity, the temple has evolved as the center of culture. Can politics be far behind? Some food for thought, I hope.
I don’t quite understand the hostility among so many Indian Hindus toward Christian missionaries converting those they help. If the conversions are genuine, then what is there to complain about? To quote Jesus, not even the gates of hell will overcome his church, so what hope does hinduhumanrights.org have? If the conversions are false, then why does it even matter? They are not true Christians at heart and will you begrudge the poor taking advantage of the generosity of others?
With regard to the original story, using kids in a form of protest is similar to the LTTE saga that just passed around the world. In Australia, there have been numerous protests in mainly Melbourne, with Sinhalese and Sri Lankan Tamils boiling their anger over on the streets during what was meant to be a “peaceful” protest. Both sides are guilty in my opinion. Nonetheless, while supporting extreme views and airing them in public in a country which is not even involved (In this case, America) is disgusting; and using children as protesters is REALLY despicable. These kids don’t know what they’re supporting or why they’re supporting it. Yet, they are the ones who get brainwashed by ideas that aren’t their own. If they grow up to believe it on their own accord is upto them but the parents who subject them to these personal protests at such an early age, should take a good look at themselves. It should be made illegal. Just my two cents.
Abhi:
This would actually reflect negatively upon you. I understand and respect why you might not agree with everyone who comments here, but banning people whom you disagree with is merely a recipe that ensures polarization and hampers dialogue. It’s your blog, but do think of what your actions mean before banning.
Then again, the dialogue here on this thread has been largely been “ZOMG! Hindutva-vadis are evil!”, and “Yeah? Well, your momma’s a pseudo-secularist!”, interspersed with “Won’t anybody think of the kids?”. It’s like scripted theater from pre-2004 CNN Crossfire and we don’t have a Jon Stewart to tell us off. No amount of serious dialogue (or inane humor from me) can help that situation.
How else do you expect people to comment on an anti-anti-secular blog post? Perhaps the anti-secular part needs some definition?
Although I don’t quite agree children being part of any protest, but the effect of one day’s procession (or even once a year’s protest) is nothing compared to the brainwashing that goes on most of the madrasas on a daily basis, and in the sunday schools in a weekly basis. Religious organizations (of ANY religion) should stop brainwashing their kids for power and political gains.
But then again, would we be annoyed be Rwandan children of the expat march to denounce the genocide, or if Palestinian kids protest against the loss of their homeland, or would Jewish kids stop celebrating many of the rituals that commemorate many of the pre-nazi era suffering of the Jewish people for centuries? So, why can’t these kids protest loss of their homeland ?
However, without the context (that this was to highlight plight of Kasmiri Hindus), this poster just doesn’t feel right at all. My 2 cents too…