If you get a chance, check out the full slide show of the parade from this past weekend in Jersey that I wrote about in the previous post. In one or two of the pictures I observed a level of militancy and jingoism that made me feel uneasy. I am pretty far removed from such sentiment so I am not sure how strong such opinions are in Indian Americans. I believe nobody should ever parade children this way:
I want to stress that most of the pictures in the set are of perfectly appropriate displays. This one really threw me off though.
I’m also surprised no one picked up on the other political hot potato banners, such as this one raging against the conversions of Hindus to Christianity.>>
Why so surprised? Conversions by missionaries have been the “hot potato political issue” since the 1857 Indian Mutiny and not only in India but in most of the colonized areas. But only in India are they still offering up any resistance to the Missionaries.
Hmm..looks like Gandhi is now a Hindutvadi.
🙂
When you gaze into the abyss Abhi, the abyss gazes also into you.
To elaborate, replace the word “Hindu” with the word “poor,” “rural,” or “farmer” and you’ll see how inane that argument is.
Hmm..looks like Gandhi is now a Hindutvadi. >>
Do you know how Gandhi characterized Missionaries? He called them “the vilest thing to ever sap the foundations of truth” (paraphrasing here). As a child he had seen missionaries standing on the street corner peddling the usual abuses (cow dung, etc) against the Gods. That pretty much turned him against the world saving missionaries. Missionaries have, btw, quite an impressive record in the post-Columbian Americas.
Not quite. It is only in India where it is conceived of as a “battleground.” In most of Africa the populations have either been mostly converted or there exists a tenuous peace between Muslim and Christian communities. In the Middle East and China missionaries dare not tread. As a result all the money from groups seeking to expand the flock gets poured in. One would think, though, that the Indian government would have the good sense to have some sort of screening process to only let the benign ones in and deny visas to the exploitative rabble-rousers. But I’m not sure “good sense” and “Government of India” have ever gone together.
I’m assuming you’re being snarky; if not, apologies in advance. I’ve been told I overdo it here, and am trying to adjust and understand the nuances of it all a bit more. However, on a post like this which is directly related to the topic, it seems relevant to bring up when people are already speaking from that perspective. Otherwise, why would we have ended up with words like ‘pseudosecular’ and talking points like the implication that inattention to Bangladeshi Hindus’ grievances is from an anti-Hindu standpoint. I’m sure I’ll get flamed just for saying this.
What does the status of Palestinians have to do with the South Asian Ummah? Yet most of you will argue that it is in irritant that helps excite the passions of Muslims as far away as Jakarta. You are being intentionally obtuse. Or maybe this is your “steady state”.
I bring up Bangladesh because this is supposedly a South Asian blog. While the bloggers here follow their interests, what they ignore is as telling as what engages them and compels them to put finger to qwerty. But feel free to use your “soft Hindutva” wild card to dismiss my insider perspective on what makes real secular Hindus go bad, we know radicals are not about finding solutions/building bridges but rather feeling smug
LOL–does it also offend you if I say that the ethnic Chinese basically run the economies of Indonesia, Thailand, and the Philippines?
I’m not sure what Abhi is so worked up about. This appears to be a rally for Kashmiri Hindus who have every right to feel the “secularism” in India is anti-Hindu. After all, they were displaced from their homes and have no recourse, and the GOI doesn’t appear to be particularly concerned about their plight. I’m sure people like Abhi will be whining and appear all sanctimonius when Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes (which is also wrong btw), but don’t really care when similar crimes happen against Hindus. Abhi is a poster child for why the sign is actually true.
It’s a noble effort, but power dynamics being what they are people are always loathe to concede power and privilege. If policies are truly meant to be temporary they really should have a built-in sunset provision. You can make it insanely long if you need to, like 50 years or so. And even if it turns out the goal hasn’t been met quite yet you can extend it to another 50. There needs to be a way, though, to make sure the utility of affirmative action or reservation programs are consistently reevaluated. Personally I think affirmative action in the US will have outlived its usefulness in another 25 years or so. In India, though, it has taken on an ugly dimension that only exacerbates social cleavages rather than ameliorating them.
There is a natural human tendency to be sympathetic towards people from similar backgrounds. In my mind, the point of affirmative action programs isn’t solely to give Black people a leg up, but also to create a crop of positive Black role models and make a more diverse bunch of people at the top of the socio-economic ladder who can take some stewardship over and guide younger ones. This both gets people used to the idea of Blacks (and other minorities) being in positions of prestige and gives young people more hope that they can get there too. Of course, it only works if your skin color is a salient form of self-identification the way it is in the US. From what I understand about race relations in Brazil they’re more like Indians in that darker skin -> less desirable rather than drawing firm lines between skin colors the way we do in the US.
Precisely, secularism is about equality before the law. Not dispensation of benefits to sectoral groups. If you want to broker some kind of governmental system where you break up society into individual religious bodies that’s fine. There is precedent for it, that’s how the Ottoman Empire was run. But admit it’s not secularism. Let’s call a spade a spade here.
Rob, I know you are not an anti-semite, but the comment was off because they do not in fact run the Western economy as the Chinese do SE Asia’s. Furthermore their numbers have always been decreasing and they don’t behave in a tribal fashion (e.g. out marriage into secular “Euro-American” mainstream, they are highly critical of Israel).
ok; sorry for the distraction
My comment #62 came out kind of icky. Did not mean to imply that intra-Jewish marriage is tribal. I mean to say the fact that Jewish-Americans are at the forefront of critiquing Israel when it does wrong shows that they do not behave in a tribal manner
I don’t know about that. You can love your “tribe” and in so doing critique it when you believe it is acting outside of its best long-run interests (moral and otherwise.)
JAI – “pseudo-secularism” Pictures are great. Manju is right – Robu, Yogu, and Lupu are too cute.
One thing – why everyone looks so sullen, only phoren people are smiling.
This is true. What I mean to call non-tribal is the ability to understand that your suffering is not unique. I saw alot of outrage, participation in protests over Lebanon by friends who are most definitely believers in the necessity of Israel (i.e. they are not anti-zionist Jews)
I hate Lebanon too. 😉
Please explain these poor kids What does “India’s Secularism and Kashmiri Hindu” means lol…
Dr. Anonymous, I was being serious not snarky.
Dr.Amnonsense, you know it’s time to up the dosage when your allies start to look like enemies
Christianity has two methods of expansion: conversion and secularization. Dr. Jakob de Roover explains it pretty well – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaOLOVHyVkM So Hindus definitely should look at the “secular state” with suspicion considering how Christianity has systematically eliminated heathens pretty much everywhere except India, Southeast Asia, and a few other pockets. Clive and Xavier are a tag team.
I think he’d be a little leery about taking the argument that far. His point is not that secularization was a willfully constructed agenda to abet Christian expansion. Most of the British elites weren’t all that fundy. Insofar as they sympathized with the missionaries it was because the missionaries where White while the Hindus and Muslims weren’t.
The idea De Roover is driving at is that norms of how the state interacts with society, particularly religion’s role in shaping society, is rooted in the conflicts within and among Christian denominations in Europe. They then took mental frameworks designed to understand sectoral disputes within Christianity and based on Christian assumptions regarding human nature and generalized them, inappropriately, to all religions. By doing so they end up not only structuring the natives’ thinking to be more amenable to Christian ideas, but reforming the native traditions to more closely resemble Christianity.
Thus, you find Hindu movements that are more Abrahamic in their outlook, such as the Arya Samaj, ISKON, or the Hindutva movement more broadly, as a response to the Christian outlook of “secular” elites who are all educated in a Western tradition.
Hey guys –
As someone who was supposed to be in the rally, in this very group that is being chided here, thought will bring a perspective here. First of all, these kids were part of the larger (~5-10 banner procession of) Kashmiri Overseas Association. Secondly, instead of the dismissive and judgmental tone of OP and many commenters, a viable alternative might be to ask the motivation behind such a poster.
As a Kashmiri Pandit, I am proud to have roots in a place that has for hundreds of years believed in a secular way of life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiriyat). This attitude of Kashmiri Pandits pisses off RSS etc to no end, because this could have been a great cause for them.
However, over the last 20 years, the GoI has largely ignored the plight of Kashmiri Hindus, nearly all of whom have been pushed out of their homeland. The GoI has imposed laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_370) which have made it virtually impossible for even the Indian part of Kashmir to integrate with rest of India. Please note that I am not talking about the miliary presence along LoC, which is a totally different issue.
Where the despicable murder of two Shopian muslim women has caused an uproar and a political storm – the 80,000 KP deaths have not really caused many ripples.
In a strong secular set up the government elected by the majority protects the rights of minority. Kashmiri hindus have strongly condemned the acts in Orissa, the Gujarat massacres, but wish to just humbly point out that their plight is a very similar one. Just because they are Hindus does not mean that their voice can be ignored. Until we see outrage and actions done to address our issues, why should we take down these banners?
Also – I understand many of you object to kids carrying these banners, because they have not thought through the issues and not made their choices. Will all of you think along similar lines if you see a kid doing an aarti or namaaz, because isnt that just a more acceptable form of indoctrination as well?
Btw – when you are a community of a total 400,000 in the world, you have to try hard to ensure that your issue stays in the consciousness of people. You sometimes have no option but to be provocative. We have also had banners with the pictures of our dead, which some others might object to as well. Some of you might similarly object to GoDaddy’s commercials, but hey that did the job right?
Thanks for that Android. Certain posters here have a tendency to see all Indian political issues as an epic struggle against Hindutva boogeymen to the extent that they are blinded to legitimate issues from Hindu groups that need addressing. Hence why I quoted Nietzsche above when advising Abhi that fighting with “monsters” by jumping on an anti-Hindutva soapbox is only going to have him jumping at shadows and stifling any opportunity for debate or understanding.
Pseudosecular is a factual term. To call the Indian constitution Secular is blatant doublespeak. If there is a better, more accurate term, suggest it.
If you’re interested in the background, the framers of the constitution never considered it to be secular – after all, it treats different religions differently.
Indira Gandhi, at the height of emergency added the words “secular” to the preamble of the constitution. The amendment was controversial and was rammed through in the face of an opposition boycott, with many opposition leaders under arrest at the time.
The funny thing though was that that the parts of the constitution that were not secular were not changed, in fact to some extent, they were strenghtened.
Indira Gandhi had an amazing grasp for rhetoric, even when it was double speak, and it did work for her.
And since the constitution, after the 42nd amendment now calls itself secular, even though it is blatantly nonsecular, the “secularism” it uses is false.
The weird thing is if the people who wrote the damned constitution felt it was not secular, why would any intelligent honest person, defend it as secular?
P.S. If one is truly interested in Subcontinental Studies, I would suggest Subverting the Constitution By G. G. Mirchandani written in 1977
Thank you Paranoid Android for your comment.
dear p android. point noted. i did note the banner in the background and acknowledge that kashmiri hindus, and the kids, are very correct to publicize the facts in a public forum. the challenge i have is with the conclusion being drawn in the banner at front. i am far removed from the issues in india but even i can gauge this is a controversial statement on a complex issue and too much baggage for kids to hold.
the other issue i have is that it all seems boring man. a little more song and dance would have been good. maybe martial arts. possibly a camel ride. defeinitely samosas for all. and a little more zest. will keep the younger gens more engaged longer.
The poster has it right. Secularism in India is basically anti-Hindu and we can all see the results of that secularism in the plight of the modern Hindu in India after 60 years of this crap. I think the plight of Hindus in India is analogous to the plight of the Malays in Malaysia in the pre-Mahathir era or the plight of the Shias in the Saddam era in Iraq. Even though the Hindus in India are in a numerical majority like the Malays and the Shias, the minority community cabal of Muslims and Christians aided by their allies in the Congress Party has created a diaspora of oppressed Hindus in the West. I support AA action for Hindus in all spheres of Indian life. We especially need to have more Hindus in the Civil Service and police so that the Hindu’s life is made safe in the 27 states.
P.S. Happy Independence day Pakistan and India, tomorrow and day after tomorrow respectively.
Khoofi – Point noted as well. We can all agree to samosas. With regards to martial arts – Kashmir was never really the most martial of all kingdoms, but I will pass the message 🙂
Kashmiri Hindus are not being heard by GoI because they are not a significant voting block. Infact they are a tiny community and on top of that in the last election many internally displaced Kashmiri Hindus were discriminated against in voting and they tried agitation and rallys against this in Delhi but pretty much nobody cared. This situation will not change until other communities who are a large enough voting block makes this their issue.
Its amazing and interesting to see that Paranoid Android had to be so defensive to make his/her legitimate point.
RC – Thanks for bringing up the voting issue as well. The question still remains (and KP’s struggle with this issue every day) – which “votebank” will be the best carrier for their issues? The only legit carrier could be RSS/BJP, since Congress would hardly try to isolate its huge Muslim vote by showing even a fleeting concern for an Hindu issue. Which raises the question again – if Congress openly fights for muslim issues and not for hindu/assamese issues, how secular is the party really?
On another point – would be helpful for me to understand which part of my posting in particular you found defensive.
Well apart from the fact that despite being a grown man, I am still considered cute by many (as I am sure Rob and Yoga Fire are too), I remember that when I was 10 years old, I was made to chant hymns in praise of Chacha Nehru (on stage), and fed a lot of propaganda in the name of history and civics by the Indian education system. Years later, I found out that one of my relatives, a card carrying ex-JNU communist was in the panel for writing and updating NCERT history textbooks. If the Kids’ parents have made an effort to educate them about what the protest was all about, I can’t see why it is any more objectionable than the biased education they might have received in schools.
There are plenty of reasons that people might feel that the Indian version of secularism is flawed.The 13.5% (actually closer to 16%) Muslims are considered a single block by most political parties and manipulated cynically to vote en-block. To do this they project themselves as pro Muslim (for eg this, this , this and this), often at complete odds with the spirit of secularism and national security. This rally, as the banner behind demonstrates, and as paranoid android has pointed out, was specifically raising the question of the plight of Kashmiri Pandits. It is nobody’s case that the Indian state has failed them. And pseudo secularism is probably less offensive than the oft bandied ‘fascist’.
What is hindu interest? Isn’t the claim that there are a gazillion different manifestations of hinduism made all the time? I thought all these practices that had evolved over time were part of the Dharma of the land? The fact is that all the complaints- reservations, subsidies – that people like to raise about minorities, are doled out in spades to hindus of a variety of stripes. and much more is doled out to all these hindus than to the minorities, because hindus are naturally in the majority. If you were against rents for interest groups, this is what you would rail against. Instead your complaint is that Hindus don’t tell everybody else the way it is in India. This is grievance mongering.
But, as I said before, what we do need is more kids carrying vehement posters and potentially being brought up with vengefulness and one-sided doctrines. I am not opposed to the children carrying the secularism banner in the least.
Sorry, I meant to comment on remarks by “equality”. Comment 84 was by me.
I have got a few of them too. They are part of our phamily pantheon of socialist krantikaris or rebels. When I think about them today i feel first (and probably only thing) thing they rebelled against was vegetarianism and teetotalism. I use to get sick of stories about secret meetings and all that crap. Fast forward to today – most of them have 10+ year tourist visa to visit their sons and daughters who are living in US. :). From a very young age I have developed a pretty healthy disregard for the so called intellectual-jholawaala types, most of them are not intellectuals and almost all of them are not intellectually honest.
Really? Is that what his complaint was?
Where would we be without your ability to read between the lines and assume points that nobody made?
Exactly where we are now, since I always had this ability.
minority religious institutions (which remained strong) wield enormous power relative to their size — power that is in turn used to further strengthen their institutions (such as govt subsides of private minority institutions instead of investment in secular public schools)
This is a reading of this statement which focuses on subsidies to minority institutions, as opposed to subsidies to oodles of institutions belonging to the majority group.
I assume that you make this statement despite being familiar with the religious endowment act.
No. What’s more offensive is your oft bandied insistence on how cute you are – but have given us no proof of it. stop already.
Was this event to raise awareness in New Jersey? A little camel ride and sequined music show, with vehement poster-carrying 8 year-old-sweeties, will only go so far. Consider bumper stickers. It’s done wonders for Tibet.
That picture disgusts me. It is exactly sentiments like that “secularism = anti hindu” is why India can never truly mix with the West, which is a freedom loving society. It is that same fundamentalism that drives the nutty Sri Ram Sena to attack women in bars. It is this notion that India is “moral” because of fundamental religious bs and that strick morality is the only acceptable notion. I am APPALLED that this controversial truly effed up notion was allowed to be displayed in an India Day Parade. It is pure evil and promotes no peace. Those people shouldn’t even live in America which is a place that allows individuals who want to not be effed up, to exist. Go back to the fundamentalist India.
Va – Thanks for your balanced and thoughtful response. This forum is a much better place because of rational, calm individuals like you. And I, for one, welcome our new thoughtful overlords.
Good question.
I say no to my own cuteness but it just doesn’t listen. Knowing that I’m not likely to meet you, ever, I am willing to accept that I am as ugly as a bag of striped chaddis, only if it makes you happy.
The Indian state has failed both Kashmiri Hindus and Kashmiri Muslims in different ways.
Not really. There is a difference between pride (for lack of a better word) for one’s culture, and grievance mongering.
And that difference, in this case, seems to be the minute a group you have no sympathy for complains about something.
That is generally the way these arguments go. Even after Art.30 having been posted on this very thread, some posters insist on keeping their eyes shut. Considering how shabbily their own government has treated them since India’s Krystallnacht of Sep.14, 1989 when Muslim gangs began their campaign of ethnically cleansing in Srinagar and then all of the Valley. To this day no one has been criticised for ignoring them or even blming them for their plight. Worse still for years they were not accorded the dignityu of being classified as refugees and asylees, instead being casually termed “migrants”. An insult if there ever was one. No one has cared to conduct sting operations to ensnare the many cutthroats that killed KPs and today walk about free in the Valley. Last year when the Government of Malaysia was busy destroying kovils and locking up Malaysian Hindus the Government of India didn’t as much utter a squeak, and Karunanidhi, CM, TN, after much prodding stirred himself to complain agains the oppression of “Malaysian Tamils”. He was ignoring the fact that in Malaysia only Muslims can be bumiputras even if born there, and that it wasn’t Malaysian Tamil Muslims who were being locked up but Malaysian Tamil Hindus. When the Government of India can cancel an official visit by the PM of Denmark (post Jyllands cartoon) to mollify Islamicist bigots in India, and simply ignores the plight of Hindus abroad, its appearance of impartiality is simply a facade.
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Sure. Pride is clearly the same as grievance mongering. What is the group I have no sympathy for, by the way?
If you complain about subsidies to minority educational institutions, you should be far more upset about the tons of subsidies to educational institutions belonging to every imaginable faction of the majority community. In fact, that should be something you are far more irate about than the religious communities, where Hindus outnumber Muslims and Christians and Buddhists and Jains and Scientologists and what not. The fact that you are not is a glaring hole in your argument.
MF Hussain had to flee his homeland and is living his last years in exile in Dubai. Any complaints about that? What about the principal in Gujarat who was beaten within an inch of his life and whose attackers were acquitted? Any complaints about that? The problem is with your lens.