Via Pickled Politics, a music video for a Brit-Asian rapper named Riz MC (Riz Ahmed):
And here is the little blurb about the video on YouTube:
New Riz Music Video for ‘Sour Times’, created by a montage of clips of other people mouthing the lyrics. Collaborators include rappers Plan B, Scroobius Pip, actors Jim Sturgess, Tom Hardy, and musician Nitin Sawhney.
(Wait, who are all those people? I’d never heard of any of them besides Nitin Sawhney!)
I don’t say that I agree 100% with the message in the song; I’m posting it as food for thought, rather than as an endorsement. But I do think he makes good points regarding the new tendency to brand terrorist attacks by date (7/7, 26/11, etc); there’s also a provocative push-back on the news-media’s obsession with catching Al-Qaeda “supervillains.” It is basically just an action-movie fantasy to think that they really matter.
The part where I’m not sure I’m with Riz MC in “Sour Times” is the arguably sympathetic psychologizing of what drives people to commit terrorist acts. When you say “people do this because they’re marginalized by the system,” it’s a kind of justification (even if you take pains to point out, as Riz MC does, that it’s still wrong). Some people who’ve committed, or attempted to commit, acts of terrorism in western countries fit the profile of the angry immigrant screwed over by the system, but others do not.
Still, it’s a complex song — with a lot of different ideas. It probably deserves some attention.
Strikes me as a whole lot of denial (“there’s no such thing as Al Qaeda”) and self-pity (“Islam is the new black”), when that community should be self-policing to prevent another 7/7. I don’t think we’re going to see much progress coming from the Muslims in Europe if this is what an Oxford education yields. I guess it’s going to have to come from the Iraqis, who have actually learned how bad Al Qaeda is, and turned and fought against them and drove them out of Anbar. I trust a member of the Awakening over this self-deluded Brit. It’s sad, really.
I guess it’s going to have to come from the Iraqis, who have actually learned how bad Al Qaeda is, and turned and fought against them and drove them out of Anbar. I trust a member of the Awakening over this self-deluded Brit. It’s sad, really.
But the point is, if you spend all your time talking about politics and policy in the middle east, you lose sight of people who come from a different background (Pakistan/England, not Yemen), and fit a different profile. If there are going to be native born terrorists in Britain (or the U.S.), the methods that might work in Anbar won’t work with them.
Well, fair point, but who’s guilty of that, exactly. The CIA is all over the UK, and in fact views its citizens (ahem) as the greatest terrorist threat to the USA.
Vikram Chandra, after Mumbai massacre.
How do you see the villains–naïve people who allowed themselves to be manipulated, or just bloodthirsty brutes?
Neither. Either conception is too easy, and both allow ourselves to distance ourselves, to expel these men to the realms of our imagination populated by unthinking savages or monsters. They are human beings just like ourselves, who believe in a certain narrative about the world and what lies beyond, who have certain ideas about what is valuable and what is not. It’s very hard for us to imagine that cruelty and violence can spring from the ordinary; it’s much easier to believe that people like this are “in thrall” to evil, or that they belong to another species given to death and destruction, while we ourselves are self-reflexive and capable of reasonable and logical thought. But even if only to combat and kill this enemy, you must try to understand his world-view, his experience, his strategy and tactics.
Understanding does not equal forgiveness. Not at all. But if you think you’re fighting monsters, you’re fighting the wrong battle. You’re then in a war with your own fear, and not the grimy, banal reality of the opponent’s everyday life, his very human attachments and desires. You’re bound to over- or under-estimate his capabilities, and make mistakes about his intentions.
I like the song, even though I am with Amardeep in that I do not fully agree with the message. I am tired of the media acting is Islam is some how synonomous with terrorism. Terrorism is method used by the marginalized. It is not something that you can go to war with.
Al Qaeda (and to a certain degree terrorism as a whole) is a monster that we support every time the western media puts them in the headlines. In Anbar, Al Quaeda Iraq (AQI) was a lose knit organization of primarily Iraq fighters. The few foriegn fighters/organizers came from surrounding countries, there was little connection to Bin Laden or the heads of Al Quaeda proper. I am far from an expert, but I was there in 2007 during the start of the “Awakening” and saw this with my own eyes. I do not agree with the idea that Al Aqaeda does not exisist, but they are hardly an organized conspiracy.
So they’re saying people become terrorists due to the economy???
I found that song incredibly offensive and stupid (kind of like AryanBlood). I can understand why bad policy decisions and racism can lead to disaffected youth, but the use of religion to justify despicable acts against innocent people is NOT a modern problem — it is, in fact, incredibly ancient and never-ending. If British Muslims are so angry, why don’t they participate in the system and try to change all this horrible racism that is happening to them (or so they claim)? Oh, that’s right, it’s much easier for a coward to kill than it is for a courageous person to be positive and actually use their power for good.
i’m always struck by the exaggerated sense of victimization these right wing fanatics and their apologists and fellow travelers always seem to have. i suppose its central to the fascist ideology so its no surprise islamofascsim reflects that: the nostalgia for past greatness, the victimization based on ethnicity, religion, and interestingly class…as they co-opt leftist anti-capitalist grievances, mixed with (usually anti-semitic) conspiracy theories (though this video doesn’t go there) and more than a little denialism (al quada not real, 9-11 and 7-7 unrelated).
i’ve been following closely the rise of right-wing radicalism here in obama’s America during times of economic depression. theses guys remind me of apologists like operation rescue or some talk radio haters who go on about ruby ridge and waco in light of OK city. i hope i’m not out of line if i tell all these characters to go fuck off.
“the nostalgia for past greatness, the victimization based on ethnicity, religion, and interestingly class…as they co-opt leftist anti-capitalist grievances, mixed with (usually anti-semitic) conspiracy theories (though this video doesn’t go there) and more than a little denialism (al quada not real, 9-11 and 7-7 unrelated).”
This sounded like one of those NRI-supporters of BJP that I have met ( those who came here to received their Master’s and PhD’s) except for the anti-semitic trait- they have deep love to Israel and want India to mimic Israel when it comes to Kashmir and Pakistan.
Radhika – I totally agree.
What a load of bull.This sounded exactly like what it is- a bunch of losers using unrelated and varied grievances to create a false sense of victimhood to justify terrorism. It is a common theme- always blame someone else for provoking you into committing senseless murders. I am surprised that these deluded wannabes didn’t mention NASA, the Pope and Michael Jackson while they were at it. Instead of appreciating the relative freedom and opportunities afforded by the society that they were privileged to have been born in, and using them to create a better life for themselves (as most ethnic minority people emigrating to developed countries strive to do), they will invariably try to find casus belli. Anything but introspection. Anything but the truth. Pathetic.
yeah, thats it. it wouldn’t be so bad, indeed it would be helpful, to identify grievance’s if they were presented in the context of the larger picture. but that requires some introspection, namely that the killers are bigots who simply hate people who are different from them. and that this bigotry stems from the deeply hateful and jingoistic culture from which they sprang, like the kkk emerging from a deeply racist america, particularly the antibellum south.
but instead these groups give us an endless parade of grievances (godra, israel, iraq, ruby ridge, waco, nafta, goldman sach, and the world bank) ultimately designed to cover the underlying truth…as legitimate or deeply held they may be.
replacing introspection in this video is a self-pitying self-absorption. it really reminded me of randall terry’s reaction to tiller’s murder, when his concern immediately went to the backlash the his community would face, as well as their “legitiamte” grievances such as the “mass murder” of innocents. of course he condemns all violence but one must understand the anger. but somehow there’s no room to reflect how his beliefs and rhetoric may have enabled the terror.
Always the victim with these idiots.
“Instead of appreciating the relative freedom and opportunities afforded by the society that they were privileged to have been born in, and using them to create a better life for themselves (as most ethnic minority people emigrating to developed countries strive to do), they will invariably try to find casus belli. Anything but introspection. Anything but the truth. Pathetic.”
What if the same society that one lives in is the reason for his/her grieverances? An American once asked an Arab Christian I know why she is still in America when she feels America is the cause for her grieverances. Her answer – to run away from American bombs in the Middle East. Such an asnwer took the American by suprised – for him,immigrants who came to America must love it or else leave it.
But what if the cause of the grieverance also happens to be your haven?
The same problems can be noticed among Latin and African Americans.
“yeah, thats it. it wouldn’t be so bad, indeed it would be helpful, to identify grievance’s if they were presented in the context of the larger picture. but that requires some introspection, namely that the killers are bigots who simply hate people who are different from them. and that this bigotry stems from the deeply hateful and jingoistic culture from which they sprang, like the kkk emerging from a deeply racist america, particularly the antibellum south.
but instead these groups give us an endless parade of grievances (godra, israel, iraq, ruby ridge, waco, nafta, goldman sach, and the world bank) ultimately designed to cover the underlying truth…as legitimate or deeply held they may be.replacing introspection in this video is a self-pitying self-absorption.”
This hoolala reminded me about a binary a Kashmirian wrote : It, at least, gave a lie to the binary of the show’s name: “Nationalism†vs. “Separatismâ€. To give due recognition to Kashmiri nationalism has been unthinkable in India, so they call it by other names: separatism, terrorism, extremism, and pro-Pakistanism. In an earlier show, on the same TV channel, Swapan Dasgupta, a rightwing columnist for The Pioneer, in fact, criticized the host of the show for allegedly affording a moral-equivalence to “Kashmiri separatists†on par the “Jammu nationalists†(the host was in no way doing that). No one asked Dasgupta as to why Indian nationalism should be a touchstone of morality. But this becomes easier to explain once we realize how Indian nationalism has become akin to a religious faith and India a god worthy of worship.(bluekashmir.blogspot.com)
I brought this up because Kashmirians are always told to channel their grieverances by using the Indian democracy when Kashmirians themselves believe that the Indian democracy is the reason for their grieverance.
marginalization may be necessary, but it is not sufficient, for organized terrorism. additionally, the socioeconomic profile of many radical terrorists is complex, for example the core salafi terror network is disproportionately scientifically educated and upper middle class. the left-wing anarchists who caused havoc in 19th century russia were not the poor serfs or ex-serfs, rather, they were more often more prosperous elements which felt they were marginalized from their true station (e.g., jews or bourgeoisie who were locked out of the highest rungs of leadership).
Jeez! Haven’t these people learnt anything from Obamaddresses 101? You start with the self-flagellation, move on to rumination, and then when the audience is all softened up and exposing its belly to you in the hope for being nuzzled, you nail them with the list of grievances. Not the other way around!
Seriously though, take away the video, the beats, and the occassional lapses into rhyming poetry, and Riz’s commentary would have been rightly dismissed as juvenile. Global financial crisis, whaaa? Then what explains the Cole bombings during the Clinton boom years. Sure, the Islamofascism tag is melodramatic, but this guy does as much service to explanation what the neocons did to democracy.
Why just N, it’s true of many of the RI supporters of BJP too. The deep sense of persecution, delving for excuses, the urge to rewrite historical narratives, and the actual moves to undo history is pathetic, more so for an overwhelming majority. Jeff Sessions would be proud of them 🙂
Weren’t the 7/7 bombers quite middle class? Sure, Britain has a lot to answer for in its alienation and ghettoization of minorities, but the rhetoric that these terrorists use is not of social justice, but cultural and religious transformation.
Very shallow. There is no entity called “society” that we do or don’t fit into or that can marginalize us. Life is what we make it. People MAKE society, not the other way around. Basically what this piece tells me is that Islam as a religious modality fails to incalculate its adherants with positive thinking tools and life skills.
Maybe they need to try Zen.
in the hope for being nuzzled
in the hope of being nuzzled
but this guy does as much service to explanation what the neocons did to democracy
but this guy does as much service for explanation as the neocons did for democracy
And apparently, as I do for prepositions.
Not true by a long shot. Despite what certain sections in the book store say, sometimes you can’t find the cheese not just because somebody moved it, but because you were denied it in the first place.
Then CREATE the society where you can find your cheese. Don’t blow it up, thereby throwing the cheese out with the bathwater.
Well, yeah, of course. I was just questioning what I read as an individualistic account that doesn’t gel with the reality of life in most, er, societies.
4: They are human beings just like ourselves
They are nothing like me. Or the people I care about.
Hear that sound? It’s me playing a lament on the world’s smallest oudh. Kids from some communities go to Oxford to learn of their ancestors’ many crimes, others to go to perfect the narrative of their victimhood.
Hmm, Black people in America (and various parts of the world) were enslaved, brutalized and marginalized for hundreds of years but they did not run around randomly killing people and bombing public places. They could have done so and used God as their excuse. Yet Blacks in America managed to fight their battle with not much violence except for the small extreme radical groups and they had concrete reasons (lynchings, rapes. false imprisonment, etc.) to resort to violence.
I’m sorry but I have no sympathy for people who justify killing other people to make a point or who use religion as their excuse. Enough with the whining and self-pity and do something productive.
Maybe I’m wrong, but don’t sikhs and hindu’s face the same issues in England too and I don’t recall them blowing things up and hating the country they live compare to what muslims do.
“Maybe I’m wrong, but don’t sikhs and hindu’s face the same issues in England too and I don’t recall them blowing things up and hating the country they live compare to what muslims do.”
But Hindus and Sikhs killed Muslims and Buddhists and others in Sri Lanka and blew up Canadian airlines.The killer of Gandhi was a Hindu – to feign that certain religions are murderers- free is just bullcrap.
27: But Hindus and Sikhs killed Muslims and Buddhists and others in Sri Lanka and blew up Canadian airlines.
True. But they didn’t get to have educated liberals wringing their hands over how misunderstood those poor “just like us human beings” were on sepiamutiny.
“True. But they didn’t get to have educated liberals wringing their hands over how misunderstood those poor “just like us human beings” were on sepiamutiny.”
Really? That’s why we have liberals in deep support of Tamil Eelam – from Norway to Canada?
Wait…here are some more facts to help your argument. Vlad the impaler was Christian- they are also evil killers. There are 6000 murders a year in Nepal. These Hindus know how to kill too- why don’t you catch them?… Can you see where this is going?
To see you collecting violent incidents from all over the world and ascribing religious motivation to them is sadly amusing. It is similar to what these charming Brits are doing in the video.Using false logic and sophistry to deceive themselves and others about the true nature of the problem afflicting their society.
Did the Tamil tigers ever claim to be a Hindu supremacist organisation? Did they specifically kill in the name of religion? Were the acts of the Khalistanis directed against Canada? did they want to make Canada a Sikh nation?
The incidents that you’ve mentioned are all despicable acts of fanatical killers. That should not distract us from the topic at hand or make us feel any better about the misguided boys and girls of global jihad. The argument here is not whether Islam is inherently more violent than other religions. Any religion or ideology that has the strength to evoke passion can also potentially be a channel for great violence. The question is more specific- why is a particularly virulent interpretation of Islam being used to fuel violence at a global scale, and why are so many educated youth falling for this ideology. Blaming the economy, random finger pointing and denial are not going to solve the problem.
If I hear that the Sri Lankan conflict was Hindu vs. Buddhist once more my brain is going to implode. The LTTE was secular and consisted of Christians, Hindus and atheists. They didn’t have some eternal reward for blowing themselves up. Their violence against Buddhist villagers and Muslims, while deplorable, was not based on theology. It was ethnic nationalism and perceived loyalty to the GoSL. If you want an example of violence inspired by a strain of Hindu thought, then look to caste violence against Dalits. Even Hindu/Muslim communal conflict has little to do with theology for the Hindu combatants, it is the belief that Muslims are a fifth column and are responsible for India’s decline that drives this. This has much more in common with European fascism than theological anti-semitism
agree with your comments on ltte, but this is a real charitable reading of hindutva theology and social view. it is not just muslims, it is also christians of many strains, for example.
Identifying the Bajrang Dal/Sena etc. as fellow travelers with the Nazis is charitable?
i said hindutva theology. i said that saying hindutva is not driven or articulated on theology is a charitable reading of hindutva. the bjp/vhp/rss/bajrang dal/sena axis are a good reminder that no religion is immune from mangling by the worst elements.
“to see you collecting violent incidents from all over the world and ascribing religious motivation to them is sadly amusing. It is similar to what these charming Brits are doing in the video.Using false logic and sophistry to deceive themselves and others about the true nature of the problem afflicting their society.
Did the Tamil tigers ever claim to be a Hindu supremacist organisation? Did they specifically kill in the name of religion? Were the acts of the Khalistanis directed against Canada? did they want to make Canada a Sikh nation?”
The organization like Khalistanis killed in the name of creating a Sikh nation of Khalistan.The role of Hinduism in flaming Tamil Hindu ethnic separatisms and chauvinism have been reduced to a non-existent entity.
this is a really good song. it’s his fuck this I’m pissed off. a proud brit free to speak his mind right or wrong, that is progressive.
because too many people go “nah nothing, its fine”.
I wonder what Riz MC would have to say about this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1160958/HE-coward-mocking-victims-friendly-Families-dead-soldiers-react-fury-Muslim-hate-preacher.html;jsessionid=65FF6597FC50E42410346C914B66B6B8
And people wonder why groups like the BNP are getting more popular in England and other western countries.
Don’t worry, Suki. The BNP is fiscally prudent.
I hate to see a poor boy’s dream shattered like this.
i think the angst that muslims, and in particular pakistani muslims, in the uk have is rooted in bridging cultures and values that are worlds apart. the majority of pakistani muslims in the uk descend largely from rural villagers from northern punjab and azad kashmir that migrated to the NW cotton mill towns to do labour work. Those times have passed and a new generation is on the come up, one having been born and brought up in the uk by uneducated often illiterate parents, yet still maintaining very strong ties to the motherland. They grew up as the underclass in the UK, and because of tight communities, religious observances (namely no drinking, no dating, etc.), and the blue-collar rilvarly with groups that they were taking their jobs never really integrated with whites. There’s clearly some identity issues here.
So I think Militant Islam appeals to some of these youth because it provides an identity separate from that of being an “indian”/paki FOB or a totally westernized wanna-be gora. As militant Islam grew in Pakistan during and after the Afghan-USSR conflict, its influence spilled over to the UK. Remember this was a conflict that was framed by many as the pious Mujahadeen taking on the big bad bully known as the USSR and defeating them, so it obviously appealed to masses of muslims all over the world who may have felt like losers for having to immigrate to western countries that arguably have been involved in exploiting their own nations (historically or presently) to make a living, etc. And also there’s the fantasy of becoming an enemy of the state that has an adventurous appeal to it. I mean with the alternatives being a doctor, lawyer, engineer, taxi driver, etc. yawn boring. To be willing to die for something is a very powerful thing, even more than being willing to live for something.
So I can understand where the anger and appeal to attack westerners comes from….it’s a mix of stuff: islam, the era, disaffected youth, jealousy/hatred of the success of the west and its arguable greed/gluttony, dissatisfaction with the materialistic/consumerist culture of the modern world, etc.
Basically it boils down to anger, justified or not, that’s what it is, and it will keep growing.
so clearly not as simple as riz ahmed’s take on it…but it’s just a song
Yeah but there’s a whole sub-culture that has crossed over into the mainstream now of alternative new age types that they could hook up with if they don’t agree with the consumerist culture of the West.
They could collaborate with Deepak Chopra and a whole host of other holistice/wellness/new age spiritualists. They could join PETA.
They don’t have to assimilate with mainstream consumerist culture but they could hop on board with the alternative types. Why aren’t they doing that?
So I can understand where the anger and appeal to attack westerners comes from….it’s a mix of stuff: islam, the era, disaffected youth, jealousy/hatred of the success of the west and its arguable greed/gluttony, dissatisfaction with the materialistic/consumerist culture of the modern world, etc.
You just gave a good reason why western countries should look at there immigration system when it comes to immigrants from muslim countries.
Yeah but there’s a whole sub-culture that has crossed over into the mainstream now of alternative new age types that they could hook up with if they don’t agree with the consumerist culture of the West.
They could collaborate with Deepak Chopra and a whole host of other holistice/wellness/new age spiritualists. They could join PETA.
They don’t have to assimilate with mainstream consumerist culture but they could hop on board with the alternative types. Why aren’t they doing that?
Hahaha, you can’t be serious.
Because that doesn’t appeal to them. It has nothing to do with their identity, their history, and isn’t antagonistic enough with the western world. Definitely not angry nor in line with their conservative values rooted in their cultural traditions.
No. I’m serious. There’s a huge interest in the West right now of ancient traditions, of which Islam fits in with that. They could play up the Sufism for good measure. Why not? Its counter-cultural but mainstream enough for recognition and profit.
It IS in line with conservative values.
No. I’m serious. There’s a huge interest in the West right now of ancient traditions, of which Islam fits in with that. They could play up the Sufism for good measure. Why not? Its counter-cultural but mainstream enough for recognition and profit.
It IS in line with conservative values.
I don’t think those interested in militant Islam want to be mainstream or associated with any kafir groups and definitely do not want to be viewed as a non-threat.
I think this song is brilliant. Thanks for posting it.
I think the song is lame. Thanks for posting it.
Sour times..an opinion of a young muslim well educated, famous and quite known for movies like “Britz” or “Guantamano.” Many of you disagree with this video, its not directed it at anyone, Rizwan is trying to get his point of view across to people. At such a hard time where muslims were blamed for every bomb that blows. Extremists views does not represent Islam. The Quran represents Islam, so those hating or really think Islam is all bout war, read the Quran and you will inshallah get your answers. Islam has become a scapegoat for the western society. Just like hitler, Bush and Blair took control over what they thought was right however I’m sure its quite obvious that you can see it wasnt. The war on Iraq the millions of pounds wasted on trying to find Osama who disappears out the blue has landed us in Recession. Our economy has gone down because of these idiots who thought it was okay to interfere in “problems” however it was just an excuse to try and get away with Oil industries that these imbiciles knew would be worth alot. And if you guys dont know, let me enlighten you with the fact that it was USA and UK that gave Middle East weapons and trained them to fight and told iraqis iranians and afghans it was right to fight for your country. USA & UK used the Middle East as they were vunerable, the “westerners” gave the Middle East all they needed to push away the USSR and infact told their own citizens to fight with Afghanistan against USSR. Now that our people are figting for their brothers and sisters in Iran Iraq and Afghanistan what is so wrong? Im surprised that USA and UK did not try to butt in with the fight in Israel. The 9/11 attack was a sad traumatic event that many people are going through may they be christians jews MUSLIMS hindus sikhs etc. MUSLIM casualties were found too and til date there are no evidences to proove that MUSLIMS had anything to do with it. The after affects were found in the 7/7 attacks which again was traumatic, however when muslims were already blamed for the 9/11 attacks and already being TERRORISED by the POLICE OFFICERS that were meant to be FAIR but were not why would they still stick for england. At this time Muslims have a right to voice their opinion, when they did they it was not heard (No War In Iraq Protest). At every corner a muslim turned, they were ignored by the FAIR JUSTICE we have in the UK so what more are MUSLIMS meant to do? In order for anyone to take notice action had to be taken. What more can a person take? I dont agree with whatever happened to the innocent here in the United Kingdom and those in USA however, isit really fair to say that its okay for those to get killed in Iraq Iran and Afghanistan when there is no solid proof. There is no sign of Osama it has been 8 years since the attack and none of our highly educated Intelligence team could find him nor could the soldiers. Many protests still take place and many extremists still ahve the upper hand, but has anyone told you that generalising is rong? we are taught in school to never be narrow minded and not have a stereotypical mind but yet were we see a man with a beard on a friday aftanun we jump to the conclusion he would be blowing us up anytime soon? its ok to be scared but not to hate them for being who they are and showing it. Appreciate our multi cultural society which shows in the video many many people from different backgrounds agree with Rizwans opinion! Is there really a reason why many people are so rapidly accepting Islam? In a way these post 9/11 and 7/7 traumas has affected Islam ina good way where people are reading bout Islam and really finding out what its really about. Where sikhs and indians are generalised for being terrorists, many muslims are also taken us bollywood lovers..but thats more accosicated with Indians not Muslims but hey… Where many people are being innocently killed there are many innocently tortured. Where is the jutice now? what more can a person do then protest?
BNP SIOE and many other groups are going to be demonstrating their insecurity of Islam’s growing popularity. They believe that many mosques allow extremist lectures, on the 11th September from 1pm to 6pm during Ramadhan on a Friday they will be demonstrating outside Harrow Masjid opposite Harrow civic centre. Now u tell me isit fair to disturb Muslims on a holy day where jumma is held especially during Ramadhan the holiest month of the Islamic calender? lets see what you lots have to say about that.. btw its just like us Muslims demonstrating against Christians on a Sunday or for the jews on a saturday or for the Indians during the day krishna was born etc
If anyone tht feels this is wrong and would like to help support the muslims then please do come along. You can google Harrow Mosque and all the details of where it is will come up. I would also like to thank all those non muslims that do understand what the muslims are going through, its nice knowing not everyone has a stereotypical mind.
P.S what Media represents is not the truth so do not take it as the truth..use your OWN mind..