This Sunday, I woke up to an email from a girlfriend who is not Desi. She said that there was a really thought-provoking article in the New York Post, which reminded her of some of our conversations. She thought I might enjoy it. Enjoy it? I could have written parts of it. It was about Dating While Brown– and dating other Browns, to be specific.
The piece was called, “MELTING NOT: Why Young People Like me Started Dating Within our Race“. In it, NYP reporter Raakhee Mirchandani wrote a sensitive, honest explanation of her views on love– and I can just imagine the nastiness she might be encountering because of it.
It’s never easy to put yourself out there, so I salute her for doing so. Besides, with this issue, you can’t win. You date outside your community and you’re either a sell-out, desperate or a coconut. Date within it and you’re insular, insecure and biased. Ugh. Can’t we all just get along? I hope we can remember to be kind to one another, as we discuss an issue which affects all of us, albeit in different ways. We’ve got to let love rule, or whatever Lenny screams. On to the story.
::
I know so many friends, whose experience mirrored this:
Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn’t matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn’t matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.
And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University – the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.
Ah, Biggie. I pour some of my Robitussin with Codeine out for you.
But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.
I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, “It’s like all of a sudden you became Indian.” In a way so quiet I didn’t even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.
That line just slays me. I project emotions and explanations all over it. Is it accusatory? A blurt of hurt? Is becoming “Indian” a negative thing? The defending “his refusal to hang with my family” is also poignant. America may be a country of individuals, but most of us who are of South Asian descent are tightly tied to our families, for better or for worse. No one wants to be caught in that vise between one love and another.
Surprisingly, I’m not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal – particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.
I’m no Razib, but this matches what I feel like I’m witnessing around me (and yes, this is the same stat Abhi mentioned in this post). At one point, if I saw a second- or third-generation Asian-American with an Asian spouse, I was surprised, because so many of my friends had married “out”. Now, I see a reversal of that. Maybe it’s easier for us to find each other, thanks to the internets. Then again, maybe Ohio State and I are full of it (highly probable– I’m supposed to be a Michigan fan).
After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, “Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor’s son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?” Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me – glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms – I discovered that I’m not really that much of a rebel after all.
Yeah, me neither. Well, except for the remaining defiantly single at 34 bit. Maybe it’s because I’ve retired all five pairs of my Doc Martens, but I don’t feel like a rebel…until grateful letters from some of you label me as such; “I’m so glad there’s another Desi girl who isn’t married…I’m 26 and the pressure is horrid!”
Note to 26-year old: don’t allow yourself to be rushed in to a damned thing. The people who nag you to get hitched now won’t be sympathetic to you if you separate or get a divorce. Then you’ll be THAT girl, the one with the “past”.
Even if you end up happily married, they will never stop butting in to your life, because sometime after your wedding reception commences, they’ll be demanding a schedule for when you’ll be procreating offspring, or where you’ll be purchasing a home. As I like to say to my long-suffering Mother: “If I don’t get on that merry-go-round, I don’t have to worry about vomiting.”
You third-generation tykes owe us big. We smug singles are facing the wrath of our community now, so that one day you can actually take advantage of this “30 is the new 20” bullshit, and go to weddings, funerals, housewarmings or any other Desi-infested event without cringing, or hiding from the Auntie mafia in your car. Don’t worry about thanking us, just hook us up when we’re 65, since Social Security isn’t going to do it.
Back to Raakhee:
During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it’s a more tolerant one – but not blind. Living in harmony doesn’t mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship – love in whatever way it comes is flawless – I know that I could never do it again.
I could never do it in the first place, mostly because of what I’ve bolded below:
Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there’s a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don’t want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.
I’m more of a wanna-be geek, so my declaration contained something like, “I want someone pre-loaded with all this software, I don’t want to have to install anything”. Please don’t tell me if that makes no sense. π Just focus on my alternate line, “I ain’t no one’s cultural tour guide.” Classy, I know. That almost sounds like I hate non-Desis. Not at all. In some of those memorable instances, I desperately didn’t want to be the object of someone’s fetish or part of that one guy’s UN fantasy which involved…well, you get the picture. Even if the rare non-Desi guy who expressed interest didn’t fall in to one of those two weird categories, I worried that having to explain every little thing or answer a plethora of questions would become exhausting.
Yet I know friends and family who feel the exact opposite of such sentiments (well…not the UN thing). They love sharing who we are with their significant others from different backgrounds. They relish building bridges by spreading the Brown love and Gods bless them for it. I just can’t do it, Captain. To each, our own, right?
What’s right for me or Raakhee isn’t even right for some of my immediate family members. While Raakhee found her prince, two of my girls got no love or interest from boys within our community; that’s not an exaggeration. I could write horrifying posts about the Desi boys who met them and said, “You’re much darker than I thought you would be”, or similar ugliness. I had a Cross Colors shirt in the early 90s which said, “Love see no color”. We could easily amend it to: “Stupidity see no color.” A douche is a douche, regardless of race.
Those two beautiful women are now marrying outside of our community, and I’m glad for it. I’m not implying that only people who strike out with brown go hunting elsewhere. I’m just mentioning two specific family members who are marrying amazing people and that matters more than skin. If brown boys/girls aren’t feeling you, to hell with them. If you only find that “amazing” with someone whose Mom makes sambar too (guilty), then more hand soap to you. We each need to make this decision for ourselves (are you reading, 26-year old?? You’re fine! Stay strong!).
I’m the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks.
Yeah, I’m just going to state for the record right now that I could never put a sari on in a public bathroom. I don’t even like to put a sari on in my current apartment, because the full-length mirror is unfortunately near where I put on and take off shoes, near the door. Eeek. Oh, Raakhee, you are a better ladki than I. While you’re not asking, I also like Black and coke instead, thanks!
That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it’s easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.
YES. I agree, 100 percent. At the same time, I have noticed that interracial couples where both parties are from minority or “ethnic” backgrounds–which emphasize family– do seem to find some common ground.
So now I’ve taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?
More than I ever thought.
Here comes her happy ending:
My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when “Slumdog” took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it’s The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He’s from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.
But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.
In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.
In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents’ hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It’s as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.
Your mother can text?! Mine thinks GChat is annoying. Lucky you! Speaking of superior communication products made from Goo, I GMailed Raakhee to ask if anything important had been cut from the story. Sepia Mutiny: we’re like the DVD with deleted scenes! Here’s what she had to say:
What we had to cut from the essay which I thought was important was the idea that being Indian was something I had to grow in to. Not in a conscious way, but something I had to sort of become comfortable expressing. And just being.
Also, I grew up in a way I imagine many desi chicks did who are my age (27); I was a nerdy, hairy (omfg the ‘stache, the unibrow, the horror!) and completely convinced that I would never, ever date. I thought Indian guys wouldn’t get me and all the others would think I was gross. In a way, despite my ridic inflated sense of self (and trust me, i thought i was some super hot shit when i was younger!!), when it came to dating and relationships, I didn’t think I was good enough to date either, brown or white.
Oh, if that isn’t Junior year of high school revisited, I don’t know WHAT is. Sigh.
Back to the article, for the last two paragraphs:
Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don’t accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.
As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.
I’m happy for you, Raakhee, the same way I’m happy for anyone who finds their lobster. Everyone deserves the bliss that is real love. We may have different desires, preferences, approaches to searching for it, or ways to label it, but in the end, we each want the same thing, no matter with whom we may find it.
If by identity you mean marrying within community and still practicing what they practiced thousands of years ago just for the sake of purity, then sure.
Then, why this “Why Young People Like me Started Dating Within our Race” bit in the title? It makes it look like the article is precisely trying to answer the question of the decline in interracial marriage rates by “generalizing” from a personal example. I have nothing to say about her story. I have much to say about turning it into a pattern or an explanation – which is what this sensationalist title does, and what the conversation here is about – because everything said in this article is so wrong once turned into a generality.
I am not saying there’s anything wrong with eating, living, listening, even exclusively, brown. What’s wrong is doing this for the wrong reasons – by intellectual laziness, by the false assumption that products from other cultures won’t tell a story easy to identify with, or are of inferior quality…
‘here’ is a fine place, as long as this is not the only place one visits. You should let latinos, lgbt, or white anarcho-punk blogs hijack your rss feed from time to time π And maybe somewhere online another community is commenting on a blog post about jew/non-jew or chinese/japanese or north-african/east-european unions – in which opinions very relevant to this present discussion are being posted…
Manju:
You’re confusing two things here:
Nonetheless, I agree that the phenotype of the class/ethnicity/population that dominates the world economically becomes attractive due to a variety of factors. As affluence spreads or numbers of a particular kind of population increase, people with varying appearances become powerful consumers, and are wooed by advertisers and firms. The norms of beauty become more accommodating to include attractive examples of various phenotypes (eg growing numbers of overweight people will lead to more catalogs for plus-sized people, or the wealth of India and China will lead to greater overall presence of attractive Chinese and Indians in the media and increased production of goods that appeal to these consumers).
I’m sure your wealth and power allow you to get all the cosmetic surgery that you need π You’ll always be on top, Manju.
staying on topic. rakhee’s tale took me back. π here’s som advice for y’all trying out this relationship thing. take your s.o. to the world you inhabited as a child. it’s not about going for what has exotic currency, but that little part of you that is a part of your childhood – easter mass, janmashtmi puja, the biology lab in junior high, the running track – those things that are nothingout of the ordinary but form the pigment on your life’s fabric. let them see you as you were and do the same.
that’s all ve shall share for now. now. back to the jalebis.
unkee nafrat jab yaad aatee hai hum unkee chaahat yaad kar letey hain.
This whole idea of software is not a bad analogy, I think. It’s natural and fundamental to want to be understood, and having justify everything about yourself can be so tiring. (Although, if you have to justify everything about yourself to anyone all the time, it’s probably a bad sign no matter what the colors involved.)
We just have to remember (as others have said) that race DOES NOT equal culture. My family is white, I grew up in Calcutta, and it will always be home to me – complete with the rush of joy, relief and excitement I feel when my airplane home starts its descent. My friend Usman is brown, grew up in London, he gets that same feeling whenever he leaves Calcutta and finally sees Big Ben from his window. “You can’t pick your culture!” he shrugs. “It picks you.” He is blissfully engaged to a wonderful white woman that his family loves. Will I marry someone who can understand why I love my home? I hope so. Will I get a little more excited if they know how to make a mean fried hilsa? Of course. And who knows what race or color they will be. There’s absolutely nothing complicated or small-minded about that.
Re: Priya
Aren’t you concerned about what your children could look like? Aside from that concern, there’s also the fact who you choose as your partner reflects on you in many, many ways. i guess it’s a penultimate consideration for some but it’s something people think about right?
actually i was thinking more in terms of racial/ethnic stereotypes, classism, etc. and how that plays a role in what you perceive as beautiful or attractive, and how others perceive you and your traits. i remember seeing an example on tv of mainly white school children being shown a picture of a smiling asian man and a smiling bedouin (in traditional gear), and the children all responded that the asian man looked friendlier…no doubt this has to do with the time and era were living in and the stereotypical images of arabs that people are familiar with. i’m sure there’s a similar effect when it comes to interracial attraction/repulsion…(not necessarily all stereotypes are bad)
Re: suman
you can only make yourself happy, but i believe that is a function of considering of what makes you happy versus what makes the people most important to you happy. frankly, i’d judge myself too harsly if i ended up with a becky…and for her sake, wouldn’t want to put her through any stress related to our ethnic differences just to be with me. why take the path of most resistance?
255 ΓΒ· khoofi said
I humbly bow to your wisdom, khoofi. Jai Ho!
Did the Jews of 2000 years ago really hold the same identity as the Jews of today? I’m not Jewish, but I think you’d be really hard-pressed to define one “true” Jewish identity — Conservative, Orthodox, Reform? Are’t religious identities like Judaism and Hinduism also tied up in cultural identities?
Yes, there is continuity, but there is also change. I don’t think saying “religions endure” is the same thing as saying “all that diversity and variety . . . will eventually end up coalescing into one homogenous and rather bland mass of goo.” That’s what I was arguing against. (Why will it be bland and homogenous, rather than just different?)
253 ΓΒ· modern_lover said
Whoa, I’ll say that there’s something wrong with it, now. π Not that I know anyone who does all of those things “exclusively brown”. I loved Karsh Kale, but I loved seeing a reunited Tribe Called Quest at Rock the Bells, more. I’m allegedly “white-washed” (see: confusion over Ekta Kapoor) and I don’t even attend a brown church. I don’t have any friends who are obsessively Desi and ghettoize themselves by only living in a constructed, all-Desi world, because after being raised over 100 miles from the nearest Malayalee family/being the only Desi kid at my whole school, I wouldn’t be able to relate to that.
I don’t nom Masala Dosa to the exclusion of a great falafel or penne arrabiata. It may be naive, but I don’t think any of our readers are deluded enough to assume that things from other culture will definitely be foreign to them or are automatically inferior. If you we do have readers like that, shoo.
What makes you think I don’t? π I don’t like this false dichotomy of either isolating yourself in a faux-Desi world or scorning your roots completely to taste a smattering of what’s exotic, in a self-conscious way to prove “enlightenment” or a bizarre sort of superiority.
The only thing which would keep me from reading such fascinating, salient posts is the considerable amount of time spent crafting and moderating this one. π It’s been up for 34 hours. I’ve watched over it for exactly 20. Just because I write for or comment on this blog, doesn’t mean I’m not interested in what my Asian American or Jewish peers are contemplating. Quite the opposite. Ironically enough, my best friends are…an Asian American and a (Persian) Jew. π
188 ΓΒ· ak said
<
blockquote>
Hey ak, I seriously doubt there are such people. But on the flip side, I have a very focused view of “Indian”. I’ve never gone south of Delhi(and Delhi was WAY SOUTH for me). When I first came here I thought I should make friends with all Indian people and stuff (very cheerful I was) but as reality dawned I realized that was a very stupid idea. So, obviously most of the people I categorized as Indian were Punjabi (born here or India) and that became my definition of “apna”. If you think about it, it never changed.
I pretty much agree with what you wrote – to each his or her own. As part of an intercultural marriage, I really do love sharing my own and learning about his culture – it’s like every day there’s something new to discover. But it can also be overwhelming in situations when you just want him to GET it, without having to explain it. We can’t ever watch those Scary Movie/Epic Movie/crappy spoof movies together because it’s 2 hours of cultural references to explain in one sitting – exhausting. Same goes for the Pakistani program 50/50 – it’s too quick and he laughs too much, too often for there to be any explanations and I just sit there bored. I can understand that some people wouldn’t want to live a life where they have to be someone’s cultural tour guide, but of course some people truly want that. To each her own, like you said. I did click over to read the essay, and I agree with her on some stuff, but it seems like the earlier failed marriage had so much more to do with her growing into the culture and picking the wrong guy. I don’t think an intercultural marriage means not having “equal footing.” In my marriage we have equal footing; compromises on both sides – it’s just different footing. Promising him Catholic children and steak dinners and allowing him to disassociate himself from her family – these are not things that have to happen because of choosing an intercultural marriage. Seems like in that relationship, he didn’t compromise anything. There’s a difference between an intercultural marriage and an I’m-Going-To-Pretend-I’m-HIS-Culture marriage. The way I see it, all those problems could have been around even if he’d been brown, and the marriage would still have failed – it was the guy, and maybe the girl not being entirely sure of her own needs/wants/path in life/ whatever – not the cultural gap. But as I said before, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with someone deciding they don’t want to bridge that gap every day of their lives.
Difference is a wonderful thing. If it werenΓ’β¬β’t for the preservation of so many wonderful cultures that enrich our lives on a daily basis weΓ’β¬β’d be a bunch of boringass homogenized lot and there is nothing progressive or evolving about Γ’β¬ΕoneΓ’β¬Β culture.
Difference is ALSO wonderful when two people of two different cultures mix to make a new culture. It goes both ways. ItΓ’β¬β’s utterly stupid to make assumptions about the choices people make to define themselves ESPECIALLY when you donΓ’β¬β’t understand or relate to the identity.
But more importantly if people were to abandon the culture theyΓ’β¬β’ve practiced for 1000s of years what are they supposed to be? Is there some non cultural norm IΓ’β¬β’m unaware of?
261 ΓΒ· romeo86 said
<
blockquote>188 ΓΒ· ak said
OK, I this must be the most desi-red-necky comment ever. So, do tell your “stepped out of box” experiences. Your one adventure to eat a dosa or a bowl of misal? π
256 ΓΒ· Haldiram said
I like the idea of software too, but why is every one ignoring firmware? Its not all black and white, you know?
The thread has taken its usual SM twists and turns, but let me get back to the original post about marriage, or rather, dating with an eye towards permanence.
Having lived for 56 years, 36 of them in holy matrimony (Oops! Now kids, don’t you dare marry that young!), I do know a little bit about this great institution. Over the decades, it has been my good fortune, and occasionally, misfortune, to see many same-race/same-culture as well as “mixed” marriages up close. I can say unequivocally that commonality of interests has never guaranteed longevity in either type of marriage. Having your mate arrive with all the software already loaded, as ANNA so eloquently put it, does give you a head start. But marriage or even long-term dating is a marathon, not a sprint. Yes, you may not have to explain Bollywood to him or her, or explain away the embarrassingly personal questions asked by your annoying aunties (okay, and uncles), or other desi cultural idiosyncrasies. But these cultural similarities in a desi-desi relationship are not any more reliable, in the long run, than the shared interests touted in e-Harmony.com commercials – “we both love reading, traveling, big families and long walks on the beach.” I wonder if the divorce rate for “e-Harmonized” couples is really significantly lower than the national average of approximately 50%.
So what is it about desi-desi marriages, if not cultural commonalities, that ensures long-term unions? In my humble opinion, it is the tacit agreement between the two parties on what marriage is. South Asians view marriage as a personal relationship layered by broader social commitments, not necessarily “our business and nobody else’s.” (This is absolutely not a value judgment.) After marriage, it becomes a South Asian’s duty to accept the spouse’s parents and siblings as one’s own. Throw in for good measure the annoying aunties (okay, annoying uncles, too), nosy neighbors and colleagues, and the all-important children that the couple is duty bound to produce, and by the time the newlywed South Asian couple is back from their honeymoon, their marriage has developed so many social encumbrances that long-term prospects are almost assured.
Marriage in the West, on the other hand, is essentially a personal matter. If the persons involved have drifted apart, ending it is easier, albeit painful.
I do not believe that our children growing up in the US will automatically enjoy long-term marital success simply by marrying within their culture. They view marriage in the same private and personal sense as Americans in general, and after all the post-marriage initiation rites involving the larger community are over, they will have to sustain the relationship purely as two human beings, without any of the extraneous ties that bind a marriage in the old country. The second generation desis are not Americans merely in speech and manners. They think differently about many, many subjects, too. Marriage is merely one of them. (Please, there is no value judgment, here.)
That is why I don’t get too excited when I see a second genner marry within our culture, or for that matter, outside of our culture. Perhaps the second-genner marriages do not have enough of a critical mass yet to generate meaningful divorce statistics, but I predict, that 20 years from now, when the numbers start coming out, the success rates for same-culture and mixed marriages in the desi diaspora will be almost similar. A shared love for Bollywood and tandoori will have contributed very little.
264 ΓΒ· Prasad said
I deserve that. As far as out of the box experience goes, I remember not getting a roommate because I was “from the north”. That was maybe the first or the second in the string of disappointments (even happen now, even though I don’t really need any favors at this point in life) I had to face because of my naive views. I’m not saying everybody thats not like me is bad or I dont like him/her but because India is so diverse, there is a vast difference in culture for every 500 Kilometers, thats all. My point in saying this is the fact that people that are born here definitely have a common ground (there are still differences but not AS pronounced) as illustrated by the author of the article. My mom likes dosa so I’ve had plenty, rava onion being my favorite. I dont know what’s misal.
263 ΓΒ· Janeofalltrades said
intellectuals, i guess. once you become aware that your culture is just a culture, you seize to become truly part of it. by accepting this philosophical insight– that your rituals, and religion in particular, are just mere social constructions–you’ve undermined the very foundation of your culture, which necessitates a certain level of ethnocentrism.
so once you’ve stepped out of plato’s cave to see the world as it is, you end up in the cultural wasteland that is america, as solzhenitsyn would argue. can society survive without noble lies? that is part of the American experiment.
261 ΓΒ· romeo86 said
I’m also one of those girls.I grew up in India and married the first guy I ever dated at 24 and divorced at 28.That marriage didn’t make it even though we were both of the same culture.I was basically so conrolled and manipulated by my ex that initially I didn’t want to date Indians after my divorce. In America,while trying to date american guys , I faced the “exotic” factor issues and how I spoke such good english.I constantly had to explain my tastes ,tell people where the best Indian food is and why I spend 2 months in the year in India with my parents, I decided maybe Indian guys were the way to go.
Here is my experience ABD guys – 2 guys at different times asked me if I cook and would I cook them a meal if they bought groceries,this was the first time we ever met.Another ABD guy said he never cooks but he was sure I would because I was female! I spent an hour with another Indian guy who only asked me about my cooking prowess told me everything about him and never asked me one question about what I like to do.He also started eating his food before I got mine and stood behind me while I opened doors and though it was late at night never offered to walk me to my car.I know these are small things and it would be petty to hold these against someone.
Does all this mean I’m off Brown for good??? Nope not at all. Just last night I watched Anoop Desai and sighed a little that he was more than a decade younger than me π
So, basically here I am in Los Angeles, 34 year old, with the reality dawning upon me that maybe I can’t date American, ABD or Desi maybe time to pack my bags and head back to the mothership where everybody know my name π
and BTW on Facebook only 1 out of 10 friends is Desi ,I wonder what that says about me π
270 ΓΒ· kaizen said
You’re meeting the wrong
ABDguys. π Seriously though, I wouldn’t date anyone who asked me to cook right after we met, assumed I do cook just because I have a vag, who blathered for an hour about just himself, started eating before I received any food, or who left me to find my way back to my car at a dangerous time at night, either. Those are not small things. You’re too kind to find them small, because these guys are unbelievably shitty someones. I’d hold plenty against them, and I don’t mean anything good.Ah, THERE is your problem. No need to head back to the desh, just leave Los Angeles. π
269 ΓβΓΒ· ak said
I’m happy(?) that there people in India that dont know their mother tongue, its just that I dont know any. Maybe in Delhi there are, who knows, I’m not from Delhi, cant say. And all of this is my personal opinion from what I’ve seen and experienced, it would seem wrong to a lot of people which makes perfect sense. As far as schools go, I know “english-medium” (heh, havent used that word for a while) people in India would have a very good grasp of English but “hindi-medium” schools do exist and it would only make sense(here and India) that hindi medium people associate with other hindi-medium people more than english-medium, yeh? (Socio-Economic, there’s a metaphor in this paragraph)
Haha Anna ! That’s right I need to be a bit more assertive.As for leaving LA ,I’m game but where would I go.Are people that different in other places?
The differential
successlongevity of marriages in the Indian and American contexts has much more to do with what the expectation from a marriage is (i.e. where it falls in the continuum between individual satisfaction and conformity with societal needs/demands, and the associated taboos), than some inherent cultural matches. I don’t think ABDs are going to be different than average Americans in this regard.All disclaimers related to averages vs. potential individual outliers based on anecdotal experience apply.
Where did you find these guys? Were they raised by wolves?
I think we can let this be a lesson to new Desi parents: For the love of God smack your kids when they’re being impolite.
Sigh. Seriously.
L.A. boys…[speechlessly shaking my head…]
Move. No joke.
274 ΓΒ· theorist said
Hmmm. Not all ABDs are the same (see: the douchebags in poor Kaizen’s comment). I think some of us have more in common with the “D” than the “A”, when it comes to relationships. If half of all marriages in this country end in divorce, and children of divorced parents are more likely to get divorces themselves…
Having been raised in the American South, I am physically incapable of not holding the door open for a lady. All you need to do is prompt your potential target to address a group of people. If he says “Y’all” you’re good.
278 ΓΒ· A N N A said
hence the comment in #274. my comment was an observation, certainly not a normative guideline about how to deal with individuals. Priors are a bad tool in dealing with the subtleties of relationships.
273 ΓΒ· kaizen said
yes – NY women are merely expected to handle a takeout menu. j/k. but seriously, you poor thing – WHAT kind of men are you meeting?! i don’t know enough about the LA dating scene, esp. the desi subsect of it, but in culture, generally, there seems to be a tangible difference between LA and certain east coast cities, so i imagine that some of that would reflect in dating practises. plus, i am pretty sure that cities like NY and DC have a larger desi population, which increases your prospect of finding more diverse desis. and taz told you to move, so what more impetus do you really need π
273 ΓΒ· kaizen said
YES.
There’s a reason I’m exiled on the right coast, even though my parents, godson, best friends and excellent tex-mex are on the other one, where I was born and lived from ages 0-24.
273 ΓΒ· kaizen said
damn. all this while i was missing opportunities because i was on the coast with too many good catches. i should really move to the coast with the losers if i want to do well for myself. here in new england, i only ask my vimmen to cook for me on the third date.
“Just last night I watched Anoop Desai and sighed a little that he was more than a decade younger than me :-)”
So what’s stopping you? Some guys dig a girl with a few years…so long as you can ride. ain’t no thang.
282 ΓΒ· A N N A said
<
blockquote>273 ΓβΓΒ· kaizen said
YES.
–>Buddy, I really disliked the DC area. π Maybe I got pampered by the laidback attitudes of Austin, but I just couldn’t “get it” down with DC. NYC was different, but alas I haven’t lived there ever. Maybe I should give it a shot before I make a permanent move back to the left coast, SFO!
ak, go ahead. I have copyrighted it, but you get 12 free uses and after that you need to pay π
283 ΓΒ· brown man said
yeah,seriously. I know so many beautiful single women here in LA. Just looking for the right guys in the land of the wrong guys apparently.
I think I’ll start a job search and see where that takes me.Makes me feel really desperate though to moves cities to find a good guy to date.
Kaizen girl I don’t even know where to begin. I’ll start with saying I’ve dated a lot of tools like you did but on the east coast and while I feel your pain please don’t assume anything about any men based on where they were born. I know men born and raised in the United States talk about feminist issues like they are Gloria Steinem and yet lack basic manners on how to be polite to a woman or anyone for that matter. I know a guys born and raised in India who are wonderful and involved fathers and act as caretakers unlike the desi men I know in India but more importantly cook and manage their homes without any issue.
I’m sorry you met so many idiots. Ugh. Please when my husband married me I had yet to prepare a meal for him. I’m a good cook but I was so stressed when we got married because I had never had the opportunity to really cook for him. He never even thought to question it or bring it up. We either ate out all the time or ate his mom’s food and I can seriously say I can count on 2 hands how many times I’ve made a full on meal in my kitchen in the past 2 years. Boy loves to cook and will throw me out of the kitchen if I go in there.
But trust me he’s not perfect. He would not do the laundry till he runs out of undershirts or throw away old ones with holes in them till he can put a fist thru it. He just doesn’t notice! The horror.
Your perfect “for you” guy is out there. Throw away your preset notions and approach it with your heart and convictions about what you want from a man. Make that list, it’s so important to make that list of what you want and believe in it everyday and read it everyday. But that list shouldn’t be some one time sad wishlist that’s unrealistic. You need to really dig deep and edit and edit some more to find the 5 core things you want from someone.
anna – you’re take was definitely more digestible than rahkee’s which made me nauseous for some reason.
282 ΓΒ· A N N A said
<
blockquote>273 ΓΒ· kaizen said
I would disagree in general, though clearly ANNA’s experience is a great counterexample. I’ve lived on the East Coast for years, and always thought Californians were really different, in a better way, whenever I visited. And they are. Some of them, some of the time. But when it comes to meeting people, developing relationships, etc., it’s as much you as them, and all big metropolitan areas are about the same. And that’s whether you date within or outside your ‘culture’. If you move, move for the weather. West Coast = sunny, and never too chilly; East Coast = not sunny but chilly and snowy. Or if you do something really specialized for work, then it makes sense to move too. Washington DC = lots of lawyers’ jobs. But moving from one coast to another, especially out of LA and to the East Coast, for the singles scene, seems a bit much. What moving can do sometimes, however, is help you move out of a psychological rut. You see new things, and new things in people, and sometimes that makes a difference. But if you move, and take along your existing internal self-image and external world-view, nothing will change for you.
268 ΓΒ· Manju said
why so serious today, dear manju? i liked that comment, btw.
Thanks Janeofalltrades- I do believe the perfect guy is out there.You’re right,I’ve always believed that a relationship is not necessarily about 50% all the time,one person does what they’re good at the other carries slack in other departments.
OldMarty -I’m not moving yet.You said some insightful things. It is true that where ever I go I’m taking myself with me. Like I stated before that I need to be a little more assertive that argument applies to my marriage, divorce and any dating I’ve done thereafter.That said,I’m not that terrible π Today in LA it’s 70 degrees of sunshine, my Indian genes are rejoicing. I’ll be here for sometime. Except, if I decide to move back to India if I get sick of the whole thing but that’s another blog for Anna to write about.
Anna- It’s really like you read my mind when you posted this blog. Just yesterday right before I woke up this little thought flashed across my mind that questioned whether I will ever meet anyone who loves me for me and be a partner in my life. Reading all the comments crystallized my thinking about what I’m looking for. Thanks
288 ΓβΓΒ· rossi said
Funny, I had the same feeling. Btw, I meant to say this earlier and forgot – Annachechy that was a great write-up!
238 ΓβΓΒ· some west coast guy said
I know its unfashionable to quote yourself but surely, one person out there? Would love to have an offline conversation with anyone who wants to talk more about this
Kaizen, good luck and hang in there. I sometimes wonder where the hell I’m going to end up and if I’m going to stay perpetually single. I’ve dated plenty but only ever felt a good connection about twice in the past ten years (both times non-desi), pissed off my family and relatives to no end because I refuse the offer to ‘settle down’. I had a desi-upbringing in the middle-east but since then never really had any desi friends. I get the occasional craving for a good dosa but thats about as far as my desi-ness goes. Sometimes I wonder what happened that made me end up the way I did, but I have no answers.
PS If you love the outdoors and seeing lush, greenery and mountains around you – then Seattle is a great destination. If you hate rain/grey then I strongly advise staying away π
You know, this is probably not going to be a popular point here, but I’m going to make it anyway. (The long-timers know about my divorce so I’m not going through it here, again. For a while, I didn’t want to see ANY MEN, period, but now I don’t care anymore, which is, well, interesting. Time heals all wounds. Cliches happen for a reason).
I think there is a little bit of luck involved. You meet someone, you like the look of them, you do your best. And, much of the time it works out. Sometimes, despite best efforts, it doesn’t. Sometimes you make a poor decision and pay for it.
I dunno. Life is life. It can break your damn heart, actually it probably will break your damn heart one way or another, or you can get lucky and find happiness, or you can try and work at happiness in the best, most practical fashion. I’m not fatalistic, I just think the older you get the more you realize that life is this incredibly complicated journey and no one has all the answers at any one time. Also, things sometimes look a lot better on the outside than in. I mean, someone may have what you think is this incredible life, but when you get to know them, you realize they are unhappy.
Just find peace for yourself. Maybe someone will share it with you. Maybe someone won’t. And? It’s still a damn interesting journey, either way.
*OPS feeling philosophical today…..
290 ΓΒ· portmanteau said
Well Port,
I started out funny then tried aloof but i’m competing with the khoof to be the one who sees you undressing
so i dug down deep, exposing what’s below worked extra hard to show you what i know and from your lips i extracted that final blessing
295 ΓΒ· onparkstreet said
Nice post. I feel like its just inevitable that must of the time it won’t work out. People grow, people change – right? Does that make me a pessimistic fatalist? π
There are so many ‘that’ girls here, where are the ‘that’ guys?
onparkstreet & Brown Liz Lemon: thanks for the support. π my parents do want to introduce me to guys (in a lunch setting) once i’ve graduated college. i don’t have a problem with that, but i do feel anxious about the idea of meeting guys with marriage in mind when i have no relationship experience to begin with, and i don’t always feel completely comfortable in mixed social situations (i.e. most college parties, but hopefully dating will be nothing like that). then there’s also the fear of rejection and this feeling of not measuring up. but i think the indian notion of meeting for marriage doesn’t really mesh with the western notion of working to find your own mate and working on that relationship/marriage, at least not when the people involved are mostly western-raised (like me) and have certain expectations and, let’s face it, hang-ups, that people raised in india don’t really worry about (at least based on what i’ve seen with my cousins).
i still think that the major cultural values that some 2nd-gens (the ones i’ve seen get married, not necessarily the ones in this article) share that bind them together are wealth, education, status. just look at RaniOfKuchNahi’s post at #161 (which i found more than a little condescending). she didn’t marry an indian-american guy, but considering his and his family’s ivy league credentials, he may as well have been, which of coursee made her parents happy. maybe that’s too cynical of me, but most people do marry within the same educational/socioeconomic group.
somewestcoastguy- can’t say I know exactly how you feel but I’m glad you didn’t settle down.My parents literally ask me evey week if I’ve met everyone, this is after I’ve explained to them how difficult the dating process is and how being divorced one time I reall do not want a replay of that situation.I won’t say things don’t work out everytime but yes I’ve become a great expert on knowing when things will not work out and stay emotionally uninvolved at least. But of course it’s not foolproof.But to fall in love with someone you have to strip down to who really are.Hindsight is 20/20 so sometimes you just have to take the step for yourself to find out if it will work.
OnParkstreet- I like what you wrote and I think I know how you feel.For some time after my divorce I only went out with guys because they looked good or had the right attributes on paper or worse because they liked me.Once I was hanging out with(wouldn’t really call it dating) with an Indian guy who was also divorced.We would go for dinners and movies and walks . He was an engineer,made decent money.I really really tried to like him and I think he tried to like me too but there was just no spark.I even point blank asked if there was chemistry between us – that was a first for me, and he said yes but he was confused.Neither of us took a step beyond friendship and then he went to India married a girl his mom picked out for him from the same community,same language etc. I guess that was his comfort zone and even to this day I get mad at myself spending much time trying to like him because somewhere in the back of my mid I knew my parents would approve of him.
So anyway for now I’ve decided to cut all mental limitations,strings,cords whatever to find love.
299 ΓΒ· kaizen said
I know it’s easy to say, but you can’t love others or accept their love until you first love yourself. It’s easy to say, harder to realize that it’s actually true, and even harder to figure out what’s keeping you from loving yourself properly and enough first. So the first cord you may want to cut is the one holding you back from loving yourself. Self-esteem, in other words. Once you figure out why you don’t have enough of it, you’re well on your way. Again, easy to say, and I apologize if it sounds trite, but… I think it’s actually true.
Smitten and confused – I agree with everyone here re: your parents, but everyone knows that some indian parents can be very stubborn and feel that they always have the best in mind for you. Some even go to extreme lengths, but the best bet is being upfront in the beginning – if things drag on and become more serious with you and your dream man, then it becomes harder and harder and your parents feel more upset over the period of time they have been kept in the dark. In the end, they still may not agree or be happy, but you know what ? They’ll probably get over it – but only if your honest with them. If they don’t get over it – well, you will have to figure out if you are ok with that – but like others here have stated, if they love you like you say – it should be fine. Things always seem worse than they end up being.
On the last note – we need to really get past this sense of ‘What the community thinks’. I know this is hard, especially for 1st and 2nd genners, but I have seen this weight over peoples heads (what will people think) lead to very bad situations; spousal abuse and worse, unhappy marraiges, etc – all in the name of ensuring we don’t look bad in other peoples’ eyes. This isn’t something that is distinct to Indians, but we’re pretty damn good at it. You have to make your own life decisions, and marrying outside your race is not a sin which needs to be scorned or looked down upon.
It is hard enough finding someone who fits your life – even harder when you are trying to meet everyone else’s expectations. This is an old village mentality and we need to get over it – the funny thing is that the diaspora can be even more traditional or stringent than those back home in the motherland – but you can make a choice for yourself.
If this is the real thing, you can work through it and it will be more than worth it.