This Sunday, I woke up to an email from a girlfriend who is not Desi. She said that there was a really thought-provoking article in the New York Post, which reminded her of some of our conversations. She thought I might enjoy it. Enjoy it? I could have written parts of it. It was about Dating While Brown– and dating other Browns, to be specific.
The piece was called, “MELTING NOT: Why Young People Like me Started Dating Within our Race“. In it, NYP reporter Raakhee Mirchandani wrote a sensitive, honest explanation of her views on love– and I can just imagine the nastiness she might be encountering because of it.
It’s never easy to put yourself out there, so I salute her for doing so. Besides, with this issue, you can’t win. You date outside your community and you’re either a sell-out, desperate or a coconut. Date within it and you’re insular, insecure and biased. Ugh. Can’t we all just get along? I hope we can remember to be kind to one another, as we discuss an issue which affects all of us, albeit in different ways. We’ve got to let love rule, or whatever Lenny screams. On to the story.
::
I know so many friends, whose experience mirrored this:
Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn’t matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn’t matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.
And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University – the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.
Ah, Biggie. I pour some of my Robitussin with Codeine out for you.
But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.
I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, “It’s like all of a sudden you became Indian.” In a way so quiet I didn’t even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.
That line just slays me. I project emotions and explanations all over it. Is it accusatory? A blurt of hurt? Is becoming “Indian” a negative thing? The defending “his refusal to hang with my family” is also poignant. America may be a country of individuals, but most of us who are of South Asian descent are tightly tied to our families, for better or for worse. No one wants to be caught in that vise between one love and another.
Surprisingly, I’m not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal – particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.
I’m no Razib, but this matches what I feel like I’m witnessing around me (and yes, this is the same stat Abhi mentioned in this post). At one point, if I saw a second- or third-generation Asian-American with an Asian spouse, I was surprised, because so many of my friends had married “out”. Now, I see a reversal of that. Maybe it’s easier for us to find each other, thanks to the internets. Then again, maybe Ohio State and I are full of it (highly probable– I’m supposed to be a Michigan fan).
After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, “Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor’s son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?” Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me – glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms – I discovered that I’m not really that much of a rebel after all.
Yeah, me neither. Well, except for the remaining defiantly single at 34 bit. Maybe it’s because I’ve retired all five pairs of my Doc Martens, but I don’t feel like a rebel…until grateful letters from some of you label me as such; “I’m so glad there’s another Desi girl who isn’t married…I’m 26 and the pressure is horrid!”
Note to 26-year old: don’t allow yourself to be rushed in to a damned thing. The people who nag you to get hitched now won’t be sympathetic to you if you separate or get a divorce. Then you’ll be THAT girl, the one with the “past”.
Even if you end up happily married, they will never stop butting in to your life, because sometime after your wedding reception commences, they’ll be demanding a schedule for when you’ll be procreating offspring, or where you’ll be purchasing a home. As I like to say to my long-suffering Mother: “If I don’t get on that merry-go-round, I don’t have to worry about vomiting.”
You third-generation tykes owe us big. We smug singles are facing the wrath of our community now, so that one day you can actually take advantage of this “30 is the new 20” bullshit, and go to weddings, funerals, housewarmings or any other Desi-infested event without cringing, or hiding from the Auntie mafia in your car. Don’t worry about thanking us, just hook us up when we’re 65, since Social Security isn’t going to do it.
Back to Raakhee:
During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it’s a more tolerant one – but not blind. Living in harmony doesn’t mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship – love in whatever way it comes is flawless – I know that I could never do it again.
I could never do it in the first place, mostly because of what I’ve bolded below:
Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there’s a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don’t want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.
I’m more of a wanna-be geek, so my declaration contained something like, “I want someone pre-loaded with all this software, I don’t want to have to install anything”. Please don’t tell me if that makes no sense. ๐ Just focus on my alternate line, “I ain’t no one’s cultural tour guide.” Classy, I know. That almost sounds like I hate non-Desis. Not at all. In some of those memorable instances, I desperately didn’t want to be the object of someone’s fetish or part of that one guy’s UN fantasy which involved…well, you get the picture. Even if the rare non-Desi guy who expressed interest didn’t fall in to one of those two weird categories, I worried that having to explain every little thing or answer a plethora of questions would become exhausting.
Yet I know friends and family who feel the exact opposite of such sentiments (well…not the UN thing). They love sharing who we are with their significant others from different backgrounds. They relish building bridges by spreading the Brown love and Gods bless them for it. I just can’t do it, Captain. To each, our own, right?
What’s right for me or Raakhee isn’t even right for some of my immediate family members. While Raakhee found her prince, two of my girls got no love or interest from boys within our community; that’s not an exaggeration. I could write horrifying posts about the Desi boys who met them and said, “You’re much darker than I thought you would be”, or similar ugliness. I had a Cross Colors shirt in the early 90s which said, “Love see no color”. We could easily amend it to: “Stupidity see no color.” A douche is a douche, regardless of race.
Those two beautiful women are now marrying outside of our community, and I’m glad for it. I’m not implying that only people who strike out with brown go hunting elsewhere. I’m just mentioning two specific family members who are marrying amazing people and that matters more than skin. If brown boys/girls aren’t feeling you, to hell with them. If you only find that “amazing” with someone whose Mom makes sambar too (guilty), then more hand soap to you. We each need to make this decision for ourselves (are you reading, 26-year old?? You’re fine! Stay strong!).
I’m the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks.
Yeah, I’m just going to state for the record right now that I could never put a sari on in a public bathroom. I don’t even like to put a sari on in my current apartment, because the full-length mirror is unfortunately near where I put on and take off shoes, near the door. Eeek. Oh, Raakhee, you are a better ladki than I. While you’re not asking, I also like Black and coke instead, thanks!
That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it’s easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.
YES. I agree, 100 percent. At the same time, I have noticed that interracial couples where both parties are from minority or “ethnic” backgrounds–which emphasize family– do seem to find some common ground.
So now I’ve taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?
More than I ever thought.
Here comes her happy ending:
My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when “Slumdog” took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it’s The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He’s from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.
But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.
In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.
In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents’ hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It’s as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.
Your mother can text?! Mine thinks GChat is annoying. Lucky you! Speaking of superior communication products made from Goo, I GMailed Raakhee to ask if anything important had been cut from the story. Sepia Mutiny: we’re like the DVD with deleted scenes! Here’s what she had to say:
What we had to cut from the essay which I thought was important was the idea that being Indian was something I had to grow in to. Not in a conscious way, but something I had to sort of become comfortable expressing. And just being.
Also, I grew up in a way I imagine many desi chicks did who are my age (27); I was a nerdy, hairy (omfg the ‘stache, the unibrow, the horror!) and completely convinced that I would never, ever date. I thought Indian guys wouldn’t get me and all the others would think I was gross. In a way, despite my ridic inflated sense of self (and trust me, i thought i was some super hot shit when i was younger!!), when it came to dating and relationships, I didn’t think I was good enough to date either, brown or white.
Oh, if that isn’t Junior year of high school revisited, I don’t know WHAT is. Sigh.
Back to the article, for the last two paragraphs:
Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don’t accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.
As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.
I’m happy for you, Raakhee, the same way I’m happy for anyone who finds their lobster. Everyone deserves the bliss that is real love. We may have different desires, preferences, approaches to searching for it, or ways to label it, but in the end, we each want the same thing, no matter with whom we may find it.
Hey speak for yourself, matey, I excrete pearls of genius wisdom for the greater Enlightenment of the masses ๐
which explains why you’ve been as laconic as calvin coolidge on this thread, right?
199 รยท suman said
lol.. that’s why i said it’s a little bit harder to discern. i’ll use myself as an example of someone who honestly has “issues”. i am that person that doesn’t hung around a lot of other desis yet has exclusively dated brown women (okay not all desi, but all non-white). i’ve been surrounded by whites my entire life. it would be a lot easier for me to date white women given they’re the ones i grew up around, and still have more contact with on a day to day basis….i choose not to pursue white women as potential partners or consider their advances for reasons that are related to not wanting to be viewed as whitewashed by my own people (not my most important reason, but if i’m honest with myself, i can admit that it plays a role). In a way, tt’s overcompensating…
199 รโรยท Janeofalltrades said
Thanks JoaT. This is exactly how it is with me too ๐
eastern european chicks dig indian guys with pot bellies. they grew up on bollywood films and the potbelly thing is a common to poorer societies. this is really significant evidence of the role media plays. one cannot dismiss social constructionism.
the chicks are pretty hot too.
otoh, better looking ones do not have to worry about others thinking they could not find anyone within their race. hence no risk of openness being misconstrued as a lack of options.
You’re probably right, but dang–I thought I kept scoring in Romania and Moldova b/c I’m hip that way!!
-I thought I kept scoring in Romania and Moldova b/c I’m hip that way!!
uh, you know what moldova’s #1 export is, right?
“hostesses,” I guess. . . . nasty business. I was in Moldova though.
205 รโรยท Manju said
Dasvidaniya
suman – I think ak is single. you could ask her for a date. I have always had a crush on her but am on the “arse end of the world” ๐ – too far away…….
damn – is that why i found it easier to get laid in the poorer nations than in the richer ones ? ๐ – makes a lot of sense. or maybe i was considered a meal ticket…..
115 รยท jsp said
I think, as anna tried to address, there are definitely people who are insular and prefer to date within their race. Maybe because they’re lazy as you said, or because they’re unafraid of new things. But I think it’s important to actually understand the point and nuances of this post rather than simplifying it as veiled racism.
My best friend (albeit not my boyfriend) is black. We are extremely extremely close and I probably identify with her more than any Indian person I have ever met. But I had a very different upbringing from most South Asians – I wasn’t around that many brown people growing up and I was a minority growing up in a small Midwestern town. The reason I believe that she and I are so close is because we have nearly identical upbringing – crazily strict parents, tight-knit family, minorities, and poor. I can identify with her so much easier than I can with any Indian person I know -not only does she understand that there are nuances to being of Indian origin (although she doesn’t know all of them ), and she knows what its like to be a poor minority, something few Indians I know of understand. To get to the point – we are best friends because we understand each others identity. For many, the identity is tied up with their background, and in this case the background is South Asian. I don’t see anything wrong with that. South Asian culture is a very strong influence and it’s bound to be a huge influence on any South Asian’s identity. But for me, growing up as a poor minority strongly affected my personality for better or worse. It just happens that the identity anna talks about is tied up with race and color.
Another point – I think that it might be a different case for South Asians coming directly from India, Pakistan, etc. When you’re not defining yourself against something, that doesn’t necessarily become a pillar of your identity. For South Asians growing up in America, we were always the brown kid …the one who watched Bollywood movies, who goes to temple and eats funny food. All these things are not remarkable in India, Pakistan, etc. In India, you’re not the kid who is funny for eating roti at lunch.
From my perspective, I think that Indian-Indian (whether ABD or IBD, or Pakistani, Bangladeshi) marriages are far more stable than Indian-non-Indian marriage (usually white Americans). I’ve seen a very happy marriage get destroyed, pretty much over night in a Indian-White marriage (she was Desi, and he was White), and he left her for another girl. But of course, Indians leave their spouses and are not immune to infidelities and a disloyalties.
But from my perspective, I think that I noticed that Indian-White marriages are much more unstable than Indian-Indian marriages. Does anyone care to elaborate?
Funny she didnt seem to mention it….hmm is it perhaps because Im brown? hmmm? =) Actually I had just left to eat a couple of peices of cake, seems like the eastern european women like indian guys with big bellys huh? Better get to working on that. See what happens to a brown brother when he is turned down?
Another point – I think that it might be a different case for South Asians coming directly from India, Pakistan, etc. When you’re not defining yourself against something, that doesn’t necessarily become a pillar of your identity. For South Asians growing up in America, we were always the brown kid …the one who watched Bollywood movies, who goes to temple and eats funny food. All these things are not remarkable in India, Pakistan, etc. In India, you’re not the kid who is funny for eating roti at lunch.
this is the part of the “push” part of the push-pull v-man has long talked about in being brown american.
214 รโรยท boston_mahesh said
I have seen the opposite. I have seen some Indian-Indian marriage break up, but some very strong white-indian marriages.
I have seen the opposite. I have seen some Indian-Indian marriage break up, but some very strong white-indian marriages.
yes, but what about indian-white marriges? are they as strong?
Yes, agreed. For instance, for my grandparents’ generation being ‘plump’ was a great thing. In fact, both sets of grandparents have warned me that my face appears sunken, and that I shouldn’t get any skinnier. OTOH, I believe I’m completely in the middle of the bell-curve, probably, compared to my peers.
But, my physical aside, which Hindi movie heroes have had a potbelly in the past 10 years? The potbelly is associated with the villains and their henchmen (henchpersons?). Unless you’re saying Eastern European women have a thing for bad boys with potbellies. Which is totally ok. Whatever floats your boat. I just want Khoofia to be happy.
Relationships are messy. This whole discussion is about strategies humans have come up with in trying to control the mess.
Love
Dating Interests Money Culture Race Family background Horoscopes …
Matching all these are ways of trying to stay atop the bucking bronco. No one has found the ideal combo yet. I doubt anyone ever will.
All that reverse engineering (why do marriages work/fail?) is pointless, there are way too any variables.
For what it is worth, here is my control offering:
Meditation
Does anybody have the number for Desi’s in Canada who marry outside the race. I have feeling its nowhere close to what it is south of the 49th.
Interracial relationships rise 30 per cent in five years: Visible minorities of South Asian or Chinese origin were least likely to be involved in a mixed union, according to Statistics Canada. For instance, there were more than 327,000 South Asian couples in Canada in 2006, but only 12.7 per cent were in a union with a white person or someone of another visible minority group. Sociology experts say one major reason is that those communities are so large, and sometimes insular, that members are more likely to marry someone of the same ethnic background.
you need to control for the % of native vs. foreign born and stuff. don’t know if that’s diff from USA. stat can is actually more usable than the us census website IMO.
27 รโรยท Illuminati My wife’s European background and her strong family ties allayed many of my fears. My parents and my wife have a good relationship.
Another one like you and SB, except I’m the other person in the relationship. My Indian-born husband and I met in the States, both of us foreigners, both having lived in the US for more than ten years at that point. I am European, very close to my family, and was very interested in Indian culture(s) long before I met him (took a class in college, read pretty widely). ANNA’s fetish comment stung a bit, but I don’t think it really applies to me.
Anyway, we met, we fell in love (no steaks involved). His parents were and are very open toward me, and they realize that what matters most is that we get along well, love each other and have, in the end, similar values. Our families get along and now that we have a baby daughter, everyone is definitely happy. We see both families a lot, and I know my husband is not freaked out when I walk to my mom and grandma every day.
Is there any correlation between successful/well-off (by std. norms i guess most indian-american are pretty successful) desis who marry non-desis and vice versa ?
and education level
Interesting addition to the std. expectation list of what you are looking for in a partner
Interesting anthropological issue of mate selection. Assuming that there is a widely accepted notion of what constitutes “beauty” and “physical appeal” amongst both desi males and females (and for non-desis) as set by media/popular culture etc. Will “better off” desis in terms of looks more likely/have better chances to marry out of their race and vice versa for non-desis ?
This is probably true of the non-desi race too. If they identify too strongly with some aspect of their racial/ethnic background then they are less likely to marry out. On similar lines are there any specific ethnic/regional groups/community of desis less likely to marry out because of their notions of preserving their cultural background (to an extent) by marrying brown if not the same ethnic group ?
I think the big question is can pure undulaterated love/attraction be unbiased by all these “metadata” in the cauldron of a multi-ethnic society…or maybe some “metadata” prevails subconsciously at the stage of marriage even though one is indulging in trial and error during the dating process…I have a theory that females are more prone genetically to such pontifications over mate selection than males.
Just 229 (now 230) comments! That’s 731 short of 1000. Must have been disappointing!
211 รโรยท melbourne desi said
thanks, melbourne – extremely flattered, and if ever i’m in australia, i’ll know whom to look for ๐
215 รโรยท suman said
actually, i am a sucker for darker skin, so the desi boys usually catch my eye – although after that, it’s all downhill (j/k). i didn’t mention because, amongst other reasons, i’m not looking. but melbourne desi is on the right path – i am sure this blog has resulted in offline meet-ups of the romantic nature. also, i don’t know about you, but ALL my desi friends want to set me up with some nice desi boy. i guess what i mean to say is that the desi boy- desi girl coupling is still going strong, so take heart.
deemz @ 203 – i hope that your decision to veer away from dating white women does not come in the way of finding somebody who would truly make you happy – frankly, as somebody else mentioned upthread, those who are judging you are not the ones who are in the relationship – they’re not you, so i don’t think their opinion or perception of you should matter too much ๐
Great find A N N A ! My gf also thought she’d end up with a european-type white guy until this Punjabi-munda pitched his woo at her.
Apologies if this was already asked but phabrey – such a wicked long thread already.
In everyone’s experience (and I know this will be subjective based on experience) – have you all seen more brown girls marry white / non-brown guys than brown guys who marry outside their ethnicity ? Not dated – actually commitment. Which ones lasted ?
I think a lot of us have siblings or cousins who may have done this, curious as to which side of the gender they’ve seen more. Do brown men suffer the same stigma that some eastern asian men do (ie, a lot of asian girls preferring non-asian men)? Do brown guys subconsciously not wish to anger their mom’s ?
I myself never restricted myself to a particular race – but somehow my biggest relationships ended up being with brown women – I find this very interesting, especially since the current one was even after a move from Vancouver, Canada (Punjabi-central) to Chicago (Gujrati/South Indian -Central). I agree with the author that some things are just so much easier – my gf and I have the same scenario (reversed) where I never batted an eye at the idea of her parent living with us if need be – it is just the right thing to do – I was raised by grandparents as well. Some white folk would find this strange – especially since they traditionally like to kick there kids out at 18 and retirement-home their parents (the former seems to be changing nowadays though). But hey, we brown folks get free babysitting by taking care of our parents ๐
But anyway – so yeah – what’re the thoughts on the gender question – irrelevant or is there a pattern ? Again – don’t want any of my above statements to be taken as generalizations – just open ended observations and questions.
Please people, not all desis are the same. I’d balk if I had to let my parents or in-laws move in with me. That is def. a dealbreaker. And my grandparents still insist on living alone, because they enjoy a modicum of independence. Stop it w/ the whole ‘this is out custom’ already, they differ between families.
never get married. ever.
I have a little more than mere anecdotal evidence that ABD Tamil women are marrying later than usual, if at all. For some reason among Southies it is not the done thing to import a ghar-jamai, as is among Northies (I dunno about the East and West). And perish the thought of an ABD woman going to India to look for a man. Out of the question. But in Indian/desi clusters – Texas, NY/NJ, Chicagoland, California – self contained communities all – this is less of a problem. But in the smaller clusters Pitt-Ohio, Atlanta, Florida, Minnesota/Wisconsin, Southwest, parents are now going the extra mile and saying it’s OK if it is same community/different language. Surprising as it may seem, there are a considerable number of 25-30 ABD women who have asked their parents to conclude a match for them – it is not rare.
Don’t get cocky, sunshine, to quote the wise words of your President I have been “spreading the wealth” elsehwere, in places where the needs is greater ๐
There isn’t a lot that can be said about this topic at a general level; much will depend on peopls’ own experience of their communities and personal trajectories. From my experience there is a lot of variation amongst different Diasporic Indian communities and even here my knowledge is highly specific and of course most of my ‘case studies’ come from within India so they aren’t perhaps all that relevant here. There does tend to be a lot of difference depending on where, whom and what match you are talking about. I observe here in the UK for example, there is a lot more pressure for my friends and peers who are Pakistani girls to marry within their own community than there would be for non-Muslim Indians. There are a lot of divisions that exist along gender, religious, ethnic lines. Diasporic communities themselves are not really very represenative and in places like the US tend to be drawn from select socio-economic profiles and certain groups. This all has an impact on how these questions are resolved. There are 2-3 basic trajectories involved and most life-experiences/case studies follow these paths. I am always amused when I hear a friend is getting engaged to a an Anglo-American/Indian NRI, when I recall how in college a few years ago they would say ‘I would never marry a “—–” but end up doing just that. Lot revolves around basic resolutions of questions on how each individual is going to deal with their identity, how they approach theit ethnicity, what their attitude towards assimilation/acculturation is etc. These change over time a fair bit, obviously as well as varying from person to person. The only I would say is that if one accepts the premise of choosing your own partner, then it would be unwise to rule out anybody simply because of their ethnic background – this doesn’t mean that you will end or should for someone who comes from a different background but simply that once you don’t go down the arranged marriage route, it doesn’t make too much sense to keep any other boundaries in a search for a prospective partner (even if they happen to be blonde PMSL!).
LOL love it that at the end of 233 comments a exhasperated commenter would state:
What? LOL
I’ll give it to you from my perspective. I’m 37 grew up in NYC and came to the US as a kid. I’m that first generation that came of age in the United States that had to deal with the cultural baggage of our parents who came here 60s-80s. I’ve lost track of how many people I know who gave into family pressure and expectations and married the first time around; in their mid 20s; to desi’s approved/picked by their parents.
So many of those marriages didn’t last. 10 years later I only have a handful of friends who are still married to their ‘original’ spouses. The others are married a second time around to a person of their choice and those are the stronger marriages. The 2nd time around there were no preset expectations or pressures. They married the person who was right for them and sometimes this person wasn’t Indian. Oh and many of them are divorced and not married again.
To me that’s the bigger story of my generation IMHO. The marriages that were based on cultural/family pressure blew up. The ones that stuck are the ones that were entered into without ridiculous and unrealistic expectations and they weren’t always with an Indian spouse.
I will contradict myself a bit and say this…family support is tremendous in a marriage. I’ve seen marriages fall apart despite a lot of love and respect between the couple because the families (both sides) didn’t support the marriage and no it wasn’t always because it was a non Indian. And I’ve seen marriages that had a lot of difficulties thrive and get better because the families rallied around them and supported the couple thru their difficult times. This lone crusader for 30+ years of my life can certainly attest to that. There is a reason why Asian marriages with support systems tend to have a stronger shell supporting them than among cultures where the larger family doesn’t play a big role in the marriage. I really do believe this.
Why would marrying only within a caste-sub caste be considered racist (vs Castist)?
(Just curious .. yesterday a friend said the same thing when I told him I did not visit a particular god’s altar when I visited the temple as it was not part of my faith. Does ‘racist’ just mean close minded / not liberal these days?)
A N N A, terrific post, especially with the addition of the ‘deleted scenes’–growing to be comfortable with our Indianness. I think of a number of sweet Indian gals who wanted to befriend me and immediately confess that they hate Indians. “But I am Indian.” “But you are not like them.” LOL. Thanks to SM for helping us become more comfortable with our Sepia!
I find this gross for two reasons: This seems to imply that handsome white men can’t find brown girls, you know, terribly smart, witty, adorable or whatever… Is appearance the only factor? This also seems to imply that whenever white people find something brown (that brown people despise) aesthetically pleasing, “exotism” is the explanation. Canons of beauty are a highly variable, cultural thing. White men have the right not to give a crap about attributes that have been made desirable/undesirable to brown people through cultural programming – without this being called “exoticization”.
I am also not very comfortable with the metaphor of the “cultural software”. It looks like there’s this “White version” with alcoholic relatives, dysfunctional families, and the “Brown version” scripted by Ekta Kapoor… Our upbringing and environment certainly set the initial conditions (and it would already be wrong to deny the diversity of “brown” or “white” initial conditions) ; but what’s the point of education and life if we do not explore, experience, make a sense out of it and find the set of values that make feel us right?
What I mean here is that I don’t see why (brown, brown) would mean a better match of values than (brown, white). Unless you compare boring/uneducated brown to boring/uneducated brown or white, who have never tried to use their education or draw from their experiences to go beyond the initial conditions. The article seems to suggest that the narrative of interracial relationships is “I find X from another culture attractive, but shit! he doesn’t share my preinstalled, never updated values, let’s try to compromise, or let’s give up”. I suspect that the narrative (and some of the people in interracial relationships who have commented here could confirm) is more in the lines of “after personal experience X or Y, studies, travel, I realized that my values are different from those typically associated with my kind – and that dating outside would make it easier to find someone who gets me”. After all, what’s wrong if a white straightedger finds it easier to share his values with an open-minded brown girl? The outsider-outsider thing is probably a very common pattern in interracial relationships ; unfortunately I am not aware of any study mentioning it (which fraction of relationships are of this kind, do such relationships last longer?). The article is clearly not about this pattern, and I suspect it is not representative of what most interracial relationships are made of.
In terms of cultural and family values there’s a continuum between Arrested Development and Kyunki saas – in the middle of which interracial relationships happen… A possible reason of the observed decline could be that less people are in this cultural middle-ground… I see this correlated with 2 trends: – Public debate being polluted by exchanges of “This is your opinion and I respect it, now let me please believe in my cooky ideas or I’ll sue you for not respecting my freedom of speech”. – People doing more and more stuff online through social networking sites, or through personalized data sources (recommendations, personalized news feeds and blogs, youtube channels…). In both cases, tools (freedom of speech and the internet) that could expose people to new ideas, and create the impulse to revise their values, are being used to keep them in place, surrounded in a cocoon of familiarity and acceptance.
I couldn’t agree more. The nicer, eventful, the box is, the more difficult it will be to think out of it.
Slightly off-topic, but are there any folks reading who’ve never dated a desi because it just never happened that way? 32 year old southern guy here, been in the US for 10+ years (no immediate family around). The pressure from family to ‘settle down’ is immense but I just ignore it..
218 รยท razib said
white-indian marriage: works. Indian-white: not so sure ๐
Looking for anecdotal evidence…
Any one you have personally seen/heard
Thanks in advance.
M. Nam
232 รยท jyotsana said
Same goes with bengalis (from West Bengal, don’t know about Bangladesh)…even DBDs.
232 รยท jyotsana said
Yes, but I know at least one example of ABD women (CND, to be more specific) married to a DBD.
219 รยท portmanteau said
well, i don’t think the potbelly thing is primarily due to bollywood, but rather a side effect of eastern europe being in the infant stages of the historical progression toward secular free-market democracy. in lesser developed societies potbellies are associated with wealth while within advanced capitalism the reverse occurs.
so i think khoofia and the potbelly crew have a short window of time in which to bag a lot of hot eastern euro chicks, unless the collpase of global capitalism ends up overturning my neo-liberal ideology, in which case their prospective bedmates may actually expand into other regions.
but more probelmatic to khoof is the fact that the rise of capitalism is highly correlated to the rise of other freedoms. a russian chick at work told me bollywood films were pretty much the only films the evil communists allowed them to see, so they became acclimated to seeing indian men as glamorous heroes. but now we must compete with hollywood, i assume.
on the other hand, bollywood hasn’t done such a bad job competing in the global marketplace. can white standards of beauty survive the rise of india and china? if white supremacy is built on power, economic in particular, surely the spread of global capitalism (if in fact it spreads) means the end is near. of course, its always possible that these standards of beauty have more to do with nature than most social constructionists care to admit, but i’ll let razib work out the details.
anyhoo, i’m probably the only person who thinks this way since most race theorists are addicted to victimization while i’m addicted to power and money. which is why those bozos were caught so flatfooted by the rise of obama whereas i saw it coming a mile away. and this is a good place to end my short essay. in the future, i predict you have to be as lean and dark as obama in order to hook up. khoofia will end up 1 for 2 which isn’t bad but he can always jump on treadmill or make his way to cuba or north korea (i would say venezuela, but they are an exception). i’ll leave it to your imagination port as to where i fit in in this new heirarchy.
240 รฦรขโฌลกรโรยท MoorNam said
my uncle married and english woman. they have grandkids and are still together. he became really wealthy (entrepreneur) while she became indianized (took on an indian name, wears saris, etc). i don’t know if any of that is significant but that’s what jumps out about them to me.
58 รยท pash said
Yeah, as an African-American guy, that was always confusing and insulting at the same time. How CAN a dude be white AND dark at the same time? Ladies, do you want a Colin Farrell, a Terrence Howard or a Morris Chestnut type?
My partner (desi) and I (white) just celebrated 9 years together — I admit, my first reaction to this article was a desire to defend my relationship, even though it’s not really being attacked.
It’s strange — I think I’ve only been to one wedding where the groom’s entire family and the wife’s entire family were 100% thrilled about the pairing (Hispanic-American and Polish/Italian-American, respectively) — I mean, so down with each other and happyhappyhappy to be joining the families into one. There was an amazing atmosphere at the reception — I remember thinking it should always feel this way, and in a perfect world it would. But the majority of weddings I’ve been to have had some level of familial tension (white couple with class/culture differences, Hindu/Jewish couple, Jewish/Jewish-Catholic couple, white/Korean-American couple, lesbian couple, Hindu/Muslim Indian couple, etc).
Okay, I just thought of two more weddings that seemed tension-free in terms of cultural differences — but I guess it still seems really rare to me that a couple comes together without some form of learning-to-live-with-difference, some level of compromise and integration about their sociocultural/religious backgrounds. To me, that’s part of what learning to live with another person for the rest of my life means. It seems to me that this happens in intercultural/interethnic relationships and in intracultural/intraethnic relationships. Like a lot of posters here have pointed out, being okay with your parents moving in with you as an adult is not exclusive to South Asian/desi culture, and there are plenty of SA/desi folks who would balk at the idea every bit as much as a blond WASP boyfriend. As ANNA sez, it’s about finding the individual who’s right for you. Sometimes shared culture makes that easier, but sometimes not.
On a personal note, I don’t want to be with someone who’s had a life just like mine. I want someone who will push me to grow, someone who will help me see the world in different ways. One of the exciting things for me about intertwining my life with my partner’s is learning about his culture and teaching him about mine — and making it work so they can co-exist, even with our differences.
I am not saying that same-culture relationships cannot push people to grow and learn — they absolutely can. It’s just for me, the diversity within my relationship is a benefit. I get this amazing person to spend the rest of my life with AND I get to be part of a family and culture unlike my own. Me like-y.
237 รยท modern_lover said
It “looks like” that to you? I used an admittedly-lame metaphor, but it didn’t contain anything related to Ekta Kapoor (I don’t even know who that is). Please don’t think that “software” automatically contains such zero-sum, simplistic, hurtful things (white BAD…brown GOOD).
Also, I’m not comfortable with equating certain very personal inclinations, like whom we find attractive, to being ignorant if we’re not drawn to dating inter-racially. Perhaps you didn’t intend for your comment to be read that way (because that would be really insulting); I’m hoping I misunderstood it. I love my education and my life, and I don’t feel like either are wasted on me (!) because I’m primarily attracted to Desi men.
Additionally, to me, dating certain North Indian guys WAS exploring something different, and yes, quite an experience. Why are some of you assuming that those of us who date brown are staying within sub-caste? Dating a Bengali guy was a way I explored, experienced, and defined my core set of values. Same with dating a Rajasthani, Punjabi, Guju, etc. While there may have been superficial similarities, to me, these people were in some cases less familiar than the preppy non-Desi I went to school with, or my sorority sisters. I don’t do Bollywood, so that didn’t help. I don’t speak or understand any North Indian language fluently.
The only instances where these relationships thrived were when we were both two second-genners who were relating about the very specific and unique experience that some of us have had, being raised by immigrant parents with super-strict rules and certain expectations, in this country. Never being able to call me at home wasn’t a source of consternation because HIS sister wasn’t allowed to talk to boys, either. Maybe these things seem trivial or unimportant to some of you, but others might disagree, which is to be expected, right? You haven’t lived my life or been shaped by my experiences and v.v. I tried to stress, repeatedly in my post, that we should try and keep an open mind while respecting each other, because this sort of thread would inevitably be comprised of very personal, individual experiences, not cold facts (except for Razib!;)
I can’t explain why I find black hair, tan skin and dark eyes attractive, and ideally, I shouldn’t have to. I’ve dated a few non-Desis who had that “look” and unfortunately for me, none of those experiences were pleasant. That didn’t “sour” me on non-Desis. Moving to a major East Coast city meant that my options were radically expanded, and there was no shortage of brown people from which to choose. I haven’t left that city yet. ๐ My negative experiences also don’t mean that I look down on or don’t love my non-Desi in-laws. I’m glad my cousin and her Irish-American husband in New York are blissed out; that doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find red hair and freckles hot, no matter how hard I remind myself of how awesome he is, how he’s learning Malayalam or how he’s kinder to his Mother and Father-in-law than some of my desi-in laws are to their also brown parents by marriage. Some of this stuff feels deeply-wired and very difficult to change.
No one is saying that only brown people get family or that all brown-brown pairings would work. That’s sloppy, inaccurate and sweeping. I just don’t understand how it’s okay to put down others for making certain choices which bring them happiness. Some of you probably voted “No” on 8, but you’ll disapprove of hetero pairings where two people share an ethnic background?
The article suggested that ONE person’s narrative went a certain way. The journalist herself clearly stated “And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship – love in whatever way it comes is flawless – I know that I could never do it again”. She’s speaking for herself. Also, isn’t it a bit dismissive to use a negative phrase like, “never updated”?
Nothing. Mazel tov.
But I don’t think the article was meant to be a blanket proclamation of “this is what most interracial relationships are like”. I think people are conflating one person’s autobiographical essay with a declaration which is intended to speak for huge swaths of people.
237 รยท modern_lover said
To those of you who sadly cluck at us who eat desi food, go to Karsh Kale concerts and read Sugi’s soon-to-be award-winning book…if this box is so pitiable, why are you commenting on this website, which exists to publish posts about…that…box? That’s not meant as an attack, I’m genuinely confused. Other people in interracial relationships who’ve commented didn’t feel the need to put down such activities, I’m guessing because it would be rather odd to do that…here.
Also, about interracial/interethnic marriage and the breakdown of cultures: To me, the fear that certain cultures will disappear from the earth forever thanks to intermarriage/inter-partnering is dependent on an idea of “pure” culture, which I think is false.
Cultures are continously in flux — In 100 years, Indian culture and American culture and Chinese culture will look dramatically different than they do now, even without intermarriage “diluting” them. Think back 100 years — my culture has changed big time — even the language I speak. In a historical sense, cultures die and others appear all the time.
So if there is no way of preserving for eternity one “true” culture, why the panic about HOW it may change? I’m sympathetic to concerns about globalization turning everyone on to a version of American consumer culture (these changes are happening faster than ever). At the same time, I wonder at the impulse to stop cultural adaptation and change, which is a continuous and unstoppable process (hell, I WANT to see some changes in my own culture — I’m fighting for them to happen!). I find myself on both sides of the question at different times (nostalgia for good stuff getting left behind, and sadness at disappearing languages v. wanting to see change happen, and knowing that nostalgia can erase oppressive systems of power), but I just wanted to put it out there. Change is a given — There is no “pure” culture stopped-in-time — Can we think about where our fears are coming from and what we may be holding onto?
I mean, my partner’s mom often still talks about India as if it’s India-30-years-ago — when she left. She experiences the culture as unchanged, even though it has.
Aren’t ghar jamais the butt of jokes among North Indians (it is thought to be shameful to depend on your wife’s parents)? Which community are you referring to? I’ve been in North India for 24 years and haven’t personally known any families with ghar jamais, except those who have inherited their wives’ homes after their parents pass away (in families where the property is passed down to the daughter, who is the only child).
247 รยท Lizzie (greeneyed fem) said
Identities can be preserved despite changing cultures. Jews and Brahmins have preserved identities for thousands of years.
ok thank you all for the kind concerns about my belly. but the only bedmate i want sitting on my belly is this spicy dish . So nyah! now leave me to enjoy my jalebis.
le singhada.
250 รยท khoofi said
khoof, you can have it all