The attacks in Gaza are highly controversial with a fierce tug and pull between the sides. LA’s Mayor Villaraigosa and NYC’s Mayor Bloomberg have both taken a pro-Israel stance, as well as the 390 members of Congress who this past week voted “aye” to the passing of House Resolution 34. The resolution “recognizes Israel’s right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza, reaffirms the United States’ strong support for Israel…” On the streets it seems most people are angry about the situation on the Gaza side, not necessarily pro-Hamas, but more aligned with a ‘pro-humanitarian stop the killing of innocent people’ stance.
I knew how I personally felt, but what I wanted to know is, “Is this a South Asian American issue? As desis, why should we care?” Short of learning that Gandhi was an anti-Zionist, there’s not too much out there on the matter. But at Saturday’s protest, there were many desis out walking the street in solidarity. So I hit the streets and asked them why they were there. This is what they had to say.
“A lot of people were here for the protest,” said Omar of the band Elephant with Guns. “I couldn’t find my friend so I just joined the people I was with and started playing[he starts beating a hand held drum and chanting] one, two, three, four, we don’t want your racist war. Five, six, seven, eight, stop the killing stop the hate.”“I thought it was great turnout and I was very inspired by it,” states Amy, a young professional. “It’s important for South Asians to be here because we need to show our solidarity. We went through it in India during our fight for independence.”
“I think that this is not particular to Arabs, to people of Middle East orgins, or to South Asian origin but I think that any community that has lived under any kind of occupation or the injustices of any type of colonization should be committed to this cause,” said Naaz, a PhD student at UCLA. “I’m from an Indian background. The types of atrocities that were committed under the British in India and the way that they systematically tried to divide people and divide Hindus from Muslims was unjust. We are still living with a lot of the scars of that British occupation…I think it’s about Western hegemony that is still continuing in the form of capitalism, and in new imperialistic projects, like Iraq, Afghanistan and maybe even Pakistan… As a community of color the west has been manipulating us for a long time.”
“South Asians tend not to be as connected to other communities in general,” said the Mad Guru, wearing an image he had designed pinned to the front of his shirt. “We can’t keep seeing problems as other people’s problems somewhere far away. I mean, you have to understand that if you don’t stick up for other peoples’ rights, then no one is going to stick up for your rights either.”
The protest was great, but there are other ways people in the South Asian community are showing support too. Some in the Sikh community jumped on board earlier this week. 
We are Sikhs who stand against the brutality of Israeli occupation and the ongoing siege, blockade, and massacre of Gaza. Now more than ever, we call on our Sikh sisters and brothers to think about what our faith and our Sikh identity really means. Why did Guru Nanak Sahib seek to abolish the caste system in South Asia? Why did Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib sacrifice his life for the sake of others’ (non-Sikhs) right to freely practice their religion and live free of persecution?…Because for Sikhs, fighting against all forms of tyranny and oppression is a spiritual obligation. [racewire]
It’s great to see so many people acting in solidarity, but it’s understandable that more people haven’t spoken out because the issue is so confusing and potentially so divisive. South Asian mag Samar posted a well researched myth-busting piece last week to clarify the politics around the issue.
We may disagree with the politics of Hamas, just as we may disagree with the politics of the British Labor Party, but it does not follow that we should condone the slaughter of all leaders and members of Hamas, their families, government employees, and random members of the Palestinian population which elected them to power, any more than we would condone the slaughter of all leaders and members of the Labour Party, their families, government employees, and random members of the British population which elected them to power. The fact that the US and EU cannot see this equivalence demonstrates that they are dominated by the same racism which allowed slavery to flourish and the indigenous peoples of North America and Australia to be exterminated. [samar]
Sure we can protest to express our solidarity but that is by no means the only nor most strategic tactic. I called my representative today to express my disappointment on his ‘aye’ vote on HR 34, and I will call him again tomorrow to ask him to co-sponsor Kucinich’s resolution on the humanitarian issues in Gaza. My office will be hosting a brown bag to learn more about the issue. I’ve been sending action alerts to my friends. I’m not saying you have to pick ‘my’ side on this issue, nor am I saying you have to be a gung-ho freedom fighting activist. But what I will say is this is an important issue. As South Asian Americans, this issue is relevant to us. Do your research and get educated on this complex situation. And if you feel moved by what you learn, do something about it.
99 · Ballantine’s said
This is probably an accurate description of a certain segment of anti-Israel protestors. But in all fairness, a much larger number of “Americans who have nothing to do with the region” are members of Evangelical denominations in which Christian Zionism is a central part of the theology. Their dollars and their votes are tremendously important in propping up the state of Israel both directly and indirectly. Clearly a lot of Americans that are not direct parties to the conflict are engaged on both sides, and often for all the wrong reasons.
Is the situation in gaza really a south-asian issue?? Not by a long shot. if people protest Israeli actions strictly based on “humanatarian” ground, did these same people go to the streets to protest the daily barrage of rocket strikes that hammas was unleashing on Israel? Israel and all solemn nations have the right to defend themselves. It is sad if innocent Palestinians are getting killed… but should be a lesson on what happens when you democratically elect a violent terrorist organization to represent you.
Nayagan, Would you disagree with the claim that the Israelis are “constructed” as white and European? Why else the use of the term “colonizer” when that’s not applied to non-whites (e.g., to the Turks who kicked Byzantium out of Anatolia)?
i see what you’re getting at–“colonizer” is unevenly applied in popular discourse and also misunderstood by those who deploy it the most. Though it seems too easy an answer, i’ll not disagree with your argument. Regarding why leftists latch on to this issue in an emotional and gauche fashion, I can’t be sure (though surely it has something to do with how many rightwingers do as well), but I’d have to question your powers of deduction as you have described me on numerous occasions as a ‘leftist.’ Even once as your ‘favorite one.’ (which did nothing to salve the sting of such a labeling)
I am from Kashmir, India and recently finished my graduate studies from a Massachusetts University, where, whenever there would be a pro-Palestinian rally or anti-Israel protest, one noticed protesters of all color and creed, including Jews [btw, jewish students protesting against Israel flies against everything muslims in india believe about them]. Indeed, some protests were even organized by South Asian Muslim students who were very active on the Palestinian issue. But, when I would organize a talk on Kashmir, the only people who would volunteer to help were the Pakistani students who, since I consider the Kashmir under Pakistani control occupied territory, would much rather manage without me. The Arabs couldn’t care less, at least that is my experience.
And the funny part is that, the South Asian Muslims tolerated this double standard. Go figure.
100 · Quoting GC said
How kind of the occupying masters to not just wipe out all the Palestinians. How so very kind of them. It is a mark of their superior moral stance. The fact that they are pacing themselves and slowly build settlements on existing Palestinian farm and other land–that is a mark of Israel’s generosity.
In response to comments about Arab treatment of Palestinians: It is irrelevant how Arab governments treat Palestinian refugees. There should NOT be Palestinian refugees at all. Palestinians should be able to live on their land with dignity and full rights. They are refugees because they have been displaced from their land. I find it amusing how people talk about how badly Arabs treat people, as if that excuses Israel’s right to occupy, demean, humiliate, and murder a group of people. By the way, the Arab nations have absorbed more Palestinian refugees than not. The argument that Arabs have only recently discovered support for Palestinians is about as ignorant as it gets. Basically, those are the kinds of smoke screen arguments that Zionists throw up all the time. I mean, one could argue that Indians should not be out protesting against the abuse of Palestinians when it doesn’t even feed its own poor. I could argue that Americans should not be out protesting when it is itself occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, allows torture, and holds prisoners with no rights in Gitmo.
The bottom line is that Israel’s military occupation is one of the most brutal in its execution, immorality, and viciousness. Most Zionist Jews don’t even consider Palestinians to be human. When asked about the killing of children in the latest attacks (Israel’s blockade on Gaza has been just a vicious), a colleague of mine, who often talks about Chinese brutality, shrugged and said, “Well, those kids are going to grow up to be terrorists anyway.” This is the kind of mindset that allows Israeli occupying forces to use White Phosphor (a chemical weapon) and carpet bombing in Gaza–they are killing animals.
73 · rob said
I don’t think colonialism is the same phenomenon as Zionism, although of course there are some similarities. Ultimately, it’s a question of equity. A dispassionate observer would agree that brazen, often violent dispossession of a territory continuously occupied by one group of folks for hundreds of years by another group that has a more tenuous and historically distant a claim, is troublesome, to say the least. This is ultimately the aim of Zionism. This is a modern day phenomenon that is only several decades old and people are able to witness it and get involved emotionally through the wonders of modern telecommunications in a way that was not possible centuries ago during the Turkish and Mughal conquests.
that’s because you’re of a tradition that welcomes dialogue – and intellectual tradition that runs counter to this frootloop that pops up everywhere from malaysia to egypt
Look people, I am going to start deleting the comment of the next person that asks why this was blogged here. Are you guys freaking blind? There were South Asian AMERICANS in the protests pictured above. That makes it a Sepia Mutiny issue. For the last time: we blog primarily about AMERICAN issues that have any South Asian AMERICAN hook to them. Don’t ask us why we don’t blog about some conflict in India. If there was an internal Indian issue and one of our bloggers was knowledgeable about it or went to a protest about it then we may choose to blog it. This also isn’t a place to make stupid comments like “all arabs are racist.” No, in fact you are a bigot for writing that.
So let me spell it out clearly. American + by,involving,about,tangentially related to someone of South Asian decent + in the news/topical = possible SM Post. Any questions?
105 · Ven said
Here here! Given what I know about the conflict, I would have to agree completely. I think even most non-Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews can see this clearly and are quite embarrassed by what the State of Israel is doing quasi in the name of Judaism. It bears repeating that Judaism does not equate to Zionism and there are some prominent rabbis and religious Jews that vehemently oppose the existence of the State of Israel as a “homeland for the Jewish people”.
Sorry for having mislabeled you, Nayagan!
brown #109:
Sure, a small number of Jews are opposed to the State of Israel’s existence on religious grounds, and this same small group (Neturei Karta) joins in most of the big Palestinian rallies but it’s still a tiny fraction of the total Jewish population. A fraction of Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. endorse terrorism on religious grounds as well, that doesn’t make the vast majority who practice the faith peacefully “heretics”.
112 · Ballantine’s said
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blockquote>brown #109:
My point is not that Zionism can be construed as “heretical” from the point of view of Orthodox Judaism. This may or may not be the case and it is not a debate I am qualified to engage in, and in any case I think the role of religion in this debate should be toned down rather than further accentated. I simply meant to make the observation that one may be a Jew religiously while holding dissenting political views about the nature and genesis of the Israel/Palestine conflict, West Bank settlements, refusal of the Palestinian right of return, etc.
DO NOT RESPOND TO TROLLS. Troll comments and replies to troll comments will be deleted. Follow the commenting guidelines. Keep it civil and don’t even think about ranting on this thread.
Brownskeptic, this is the second time you’ve posted exactly what I would have wanted to say. Thank you.
102 · chitowndesi said
Well, if Israel doesn’t want rockets pelted at them, then maybe it should not OCCUPY other people’s lands. How about not building settlements in the West Bank? How about not controlling the air, borders, and waters of Gaza? How about agreeing to 1967 borders? How about agreeing to Palestinian right of return? How about not controlling Jerusalem?
Basically, if Israel doesn’t want to bomb helpless civilians for retaliating against OCCUPATION, how about ending occupation?
Oh, right–Israel has a right to exist. It will exist. It owns most of the land. Unless it is willing to consider that Palestinians have a right to LIVE WITH DIGNITY in their own land, it will not have peace, and it does not want peace–evidenced by its occupation of West Bank and the horrific blockade of Gaza for two years.
How about Israelis elect a non-terrorizing government? Why not punish Israelis to bringing in people into power who are committing to continuing occupation?
Also, just because Israel–a terrorist occupying power–calls Hamas a terrorist organization doesn’t make Hamas one. Hamas has as much legitimate right to exist as does Israel.
Pro-Israel demonstration in Florida
It was a show of unity and solidarity between various Hindu, Jewish and Christian groups which came and stood together against the nefarious design of Jihadi terrorists. The crowd was not to be deterred by a windy South Florida afternoon and lit candles and immersed flowers in the ocean in the memory of victims. A resolution adopted on this occasion urged the government of United States to intensify its campaign against global terrorism, particularly the one perpetrated by its so-called allies and others in the Indian sub-continent and declare such nations as Rogue nations.
Coalition of Community Organizations United against Global Terrorism Americans Against Hate Ramat Shalom Christians and Jews United for Israel Unitarian Universalist Congregation World Wide Christian Center Shiva Vishnu Temple South Florida Hindu Temple Jain Center Of South Florida Shiva Mandir Florida Arya Samaj Sindhi Association of Florida Florida Security Council Shri Laxmi Narayan Temple Palm Beach India Association International Kashmir Federation (IKF) Indian Religious and Cultural Center (IRCC) United Hindu Front World Hindu Council of America
I attended a huge Pro-Israel demo in ATL last week and there was a large Indian contingent as well. Good to know other communities are joining up as well.
Of course in SM world, we’re fringe elements interfering with pan-desi “We are the same and we’re so awesome for saying so” shtick.
Thanks sweetie. I’ve lived in Saudi Arabia for three years and I know exactly how they treat people. But this isn’t a Saudi’s are racist thread. All Arabs are NOT Saudi like, nor can you stereotype them the same (Saudi has a ridiculous amount of religious and financial privilege compared to other Arab nations), just the way all South Asians Americans are not Hindus – the fundoos on this thread have so conveniently forgotten the rich diversity India has to offer, including many, many Muslims.
This thread is about Gaza, a refugee camp 20 miles long and 4 miles wide, with controlled borders on all sides getting bombarded by huge bombs at UN sites, hospitals, & schools. It’s like shooting at fish in a barrel. 90% of people in Gaza depend on food from the UN to survive and the UN was bombed this morning. It’s about the parrellels this crisis has to America’s Civil Rights movement, to South Asia’s struggles for independence (both Israel and India partition happened in 1947), and how as desis in America we have multiple ties to needing to be compassionate about this issue.
I interviewed and posted this piece because I felt there was a need for dialogue in OUR community on this issue. I don’t really care, or am pushing, a particular stance, I just wanted people to have a place to have a discussion. I’d really appreciate if you respected that instead of derailing the conversation mush.
Taz, Thank you for making this post. As you can imagine, there will be a lot of Hindu and other fundoos who will try to obfuscate the reality of the Israeli occupation by regurgitating all the talking points of the AIPAC controlled US media. I am glad that there are some people who are getting news beyond the strictly controlled enternews that is US media, and the protests throughout America have been very reassuring.
And for those who are celebrating pro-Israel protests in the US: Really? Is billions in dollars in US aid, US weapons, and US veto of any sanctions against Israel’s flagrant human rights abuses not enough? You all need protests as well. Pathetic.
brown skeptic #113:
“I simply meant to make the observation that one may be a Jew religiously while holding dissenting political views about the nature and genesis of the Israel/Palestine conflict, West Bank settlements, refusal of the Palestinian right of return, etc.”
fair enough. but my initial response to you was based on your statement that some prominent rabbis had questioned the right of the State of Israel to exist in their holy land. the Neturei Karta are certainly entitled to their beliefs, but the problem is that this tiny number of Jews are exploited by the anti-Israel groups to essentially say: “See we’re not racist, even the true Jews agree that this Zionist state has no legitimacy”. They frequently appear on Arab TV and were even invited to Ahmadinejad’s Holocaust conference (lol). Projecting the opinion of a group that numbers only a few thousand as the only true Jewish opinion is ludicrous. IMO, this is no different than white supremacists saying “Hey we’re not racist. Bill Cosby said what we’ve been saying all along in his Pound Cake speech. Why can’t all blacks be like him??”
I know this was not what you were trying to imply, but I wanted to clarify my response
Taz is much nicer than I. It’s deleting time.
White Phosphorous is not a chemical weapon.
White Phosphorous (WP) is a smoke screening agent and when it doesn’t burn through, an incendiary. It is not classified as a chemical weapon by the CWC, that belongs to the likes of Sarin, VX, Mustard Gas. Frankly, a 155mm explosive artillery shell is more deadly than WP. The former, by design, would kill/maim anyone exposed within a certain area. The later would create a thick smoke screen as soon as its exposed to air, which by definition is quite unpleasant (no one wants to inhale smoke, but it isn’t deadly). If an unburned piece of WP lands on someone, it will seriously burn them. But WP is not a chemical weapon. If that’s the definition used, then all explosives/incendiaries are chemical weapons (and deadlier). WP has been used in hand grenades, mortars (infantry weapons), so it isn’t a chemical weapon, rather type classified under conventional munitions.
Wikipedia has a comprehensive entry on White Phosphorous.
neither are all (self identified) hindus right wing fanatics (in fact a minority of them are).
83 · bleah said
thank you! and archana, at 57, very articulate comment: thanks.
Port, do you really think Hamas is an Israeli creation? I’m not up on the whole issue to any degree of sophistication, but why wouldn’t the Israelis create some liberal Palestinians if they are the puppeteers? This Hamas thing is not good for business, no? I’d grant the Palestinians a little more agency, personally. . . .
Jesus Christ the mutineers are thin skinned!!
My post was removed because I dared to point out the blatant anti-India and pro-terrorist cartoons on a magazine, quoted approvingly by the blogress?? Nowhere in my post did I use racist, abusive, illiterate, content-free commercial language. Neither was it personal or non-issue-focused, intolerant and anti-secular.
Grow up.
118 · Nemo said
Please quit assuming that the “SM world” is some monolithic realm. Your statement was somewhat obnoxious (“shtick”?). And it’s not a question of “we are the same”. A more accurate characterization would be that many of feel that what unites us culturally outweighs what divides us. That doesn’t mean that disagreement doesn’t exist. It very much does.
120 · Ven said
Poorly-worded screeds that conflate unrelated issues generally succeed in alienating your supporters, not convincing your opponents.
127 · ThinkSkinned said
Please see my earlier comment. Not all of us are comfortable with what was quoted.
I do feel sorry for the palestinians whose families are dispossessed and who have been pushed out of the land they lived in for generations. However, in my view, many of the anti Israeli protests are not motivated by any particular fellow feeling for the Palestinians because they lost their land. They are very often motivated purely by religion, and this motivation is very strong, to the extent that many intellectual critiques of Israel are informed (either knowingly or otherwise) by it. You never really see protests by left wing academics and leading muslim supporters of the Palestinian cause when minorities in Islamic countries are persecuted. One never reads critiques of the policies of practically every muslim majority country in the world to deny equal rights to people of a non muslim or minority muslim sect persuasion. Even if such critiques exist, they are few and far between. For example, leading academics and opinion writers in the US are perfectly willing to get indignant about Israeli acts in Gaza, but they also often ignore the actions of Hamas in provoking this action. Similarly, many of them are probably not even aware of the history that most Islamic nations have in persecuting and essentially destroying religious minority communities. There is ample evidence of this in India’s neighborhood, and in India itself. Given this background, I (who am Indian) and many of my compatriots find it hard to make common cause with people who protest against Israeli atrocities in the region. This was not the case when Mr. Arafat was alive, for two reasons, the first being that he was a secular figure, and he at least made a case for Palestine in India that was purely secular (i.e that they were displaced), and he was pretty much the only important political figure who was supportive of India in the region, and the second was that during his time, the Islamic terrorism directed against India was not so virulent.
On the actual matter of the Israel-Palestinian dispute, I think it is a very sad dispute where there is no viable solution that would satisfy either party. The appropriation of the Palestinian cause by religious forces in the region into a Palestinian muslim cause makes it untenable for Israel to agree to any solution where they would have to compromise (either in terms of land or otherwise), since they probably believe in the story of the camel, its master and the tent. Of course, this circumstance is partially their doing. Beyond this, I really don’t know what to think.
PS: Ven, at 120. I am hindu, but no fundoo, unless you think that not supporting the Palestinian cause as espoused by many means I am a fundoo. Also, answer me this: Why should I support and give legitimacy to the people who are going to turn around and make arguments for the further Partition of India (e.g Kashmir and …) on religious grounds, and who have problems with the very existence of non muslims in the region?
Wow, I wonder how you would write if you did push a particular stance then! As for the parallels to the civil rights movement or Indian independence, I dont recall either attempting to kill civilians as a strategy and Palestinians might try to learn from that example.
128 Anna,
I agree with you too. You approached the issue from one angle and I did from another. Taz quoted the magazine piece approvingly, and I took issue with her quoting a magazine with an admittedly pro-terrorist stance (Pakistan extending the olive branch to India? WTF). What I don’t understand was the rationale in removing the post.
(emphasis mine)
The above statement is problematic and borderline offensive to people of South Asian or African-American descent. Taz cited two movements widely renowned for their non-violence and compared them to Hamas, which most of the world acknowledges is a terrorist organization. Hamas is currently engaged in violence, regardless of who you think is responsible for initiating it.
There is a legitimate case to be made against the violence currently occurring in Gaza, just as there is a thoughtful comparison that could have been made between Partition and Zionism. Neither are served by drawing misguided parallels to further an agenda and to that end I have to agree with #130.
I don’t say this as an anti–Israeli or anti-Palestinian statement, but what’s the statute of limitations on stolen land? 100 years? 25 years? 500 years? 1000 years? 2500 years? I think that’s a really important question, but with no obvious answer. When I was a kid, and would visit my grandparents during the summer in Delhi, they would always gripe about the architecture, which was “too Islamic, too British”–Islamophobic? Anti-European? Maybe, maybe not. . . . . at any rate they were glad I was studying in the US–this blog makes me wonder if I’m “Islamophobic’–by the standards of the blog, I guess I am–but–were my grandparents wrong? I’m not so sure.
126 · rob said
Abbas isn’t the strongest leader, but Israel, with its policy on settlers, its hard line on checkpoints, walling in the Palestinians, and assorted other policies on relief, has not given him any political capital at all, despite what are generally believed to be his good intentions. And every instance of retaliation/defense of Israel by the use of disproportionate force only serves to further radicalize the marginalized and dispossessed populace. Yes, Palestinians do bear responsibility for their choices, but the cycle has been escalating in both directions for a long time now, so it is not a simple matter of describing Israel’s actions as military, and Hamas’s as terrorist.
Yeah, I agree–as I tried to indicate upthread, I’m no shill for the Israelis, nor do I really care that much about the whole issue.
135 · rob said
My best explanation for the general international outrage is the fact that Israel’s existence today depends fundamentally on unconditional US support both diplomatically and militarily, whereas the other side isn’t really represented in US politics in either viewpoint or actions, and this outrage is magnified at times when Israel claims, and gets, the moral high ground in international diplomacy, even as it engages in disproportionate violence, and unapologetically pursues its agenda of land grabs, segregation inside Israel, as well as piling on harrassments, indignities, and worse (analogies to apartheid and ghettoes might be incendiary, but I don’t think they are entirely inappropriate in context).
All the outrage achieves nothing in practice, though, except as a fig leaf for the right to point to persecution and double standards – hysteria that is laughable, given the absence of influence those protesting have on actual political events. (Independent of all this outrage and showboating, I do wish much more was done by actual US politicians to curtail the spread of Wahhabism all around the world aided by dollars pumped in by the western world, and a repressive regime propped up by American actions.)
Yeah, I see what you mean. But I think one has to take seriously the view I was trying to make upthread,, which is that Israel gets a lot more attention for killing people than does, say, Sudan, Congo, Sri Lanka, etc.–this is b/c Israelis are (constructed as) white/Euro. This had always puzzled me (i.e., why is this Israel/Palestinian thing such a big deal, given that a lot more people are killed in Kashmir, etc.), so I asked white friends, and they gave me this idea (without missing a beat–so, I think it’s “true.”) What do you think?
34 · portmanteau said
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blockquote>26 · DizzyDesi said
if we’re going to talk numbers, are these comparable?
The intent of the numbers was not to imply that palestinians are healthier or safer or anything like that. It was just to show that their population is growing quite rapidly and 1. They are in no danger of getting cleansed which the Niemöller poem implied ) 2. Propotionately, Israelis are becoming an increasingly smaller minority in the region..
I found the poem annoying becasuse is it really so hard for the poster to think of examples of communitites being systematically cleansed and… yeesh Godwin’s law in the 2nd post?
Recently with the Mumbai attacks I experienced some very strong emotions that made me react in ways that were contrary to most of my beliefs when I am calmer. I was born and grew up in Mumbai. Most of the places that were attacked are places I have been to a number of times. I used to pass through VT / CST almost everyday. During most of the Mumbai attacks I wanted something done. I didn’t care what it was, I didn’t care whether that meant bombing Pakistan military camps, I didn’t care if innocent people died. I wasn’t thinking if this is going to cause a bigger conflict. I wanted revenge; some action which will make sure that people responsible for this were punished / killed. These kinds of thoughts were building up from the past year due to the frequent bomb blasts in various parts of India, but they just erupted during the Mumbai attacks. Since then I have been able to calm down and think more logically and less violently. But I seriously suspect that if I had lost someone from my family it would have been extremely difficult for me to stay sane without having some sort of revenge (paradox?)
These experiences have made it slightly easier for me to empathize with people on both sides of the Gaza conflict. I can better imagine living in the constant fear of loosing family members. I can try to imagine what happens to those that have already lost near ones.
If I were an Israeli citizen I would feel a lot of insecurity and anger most of the time. There are people around me that want to kill me, my family, wipe out the entire Jew community. I know that we have resisted for so long, mostly with the help of the US and Europe. What happens if for some reason the US is weakened / unwilling to help? What happens if Iran drops a nuclear bomb on us? Why should we as a nation stand idly by and wait for suicide bombers or worse? The only way out that I see is to make sure that the Palestinians and other Arab nations stay scared of us or we actually end up destroying them completely. I can see that some of the treatment of the Palestinians is wrong, but why do they have to be so stupid as to have elected Hamas. Why does Hamas have to keep firing rockets at us all the time? The history of the Arabs shows that they will never leave their violent ways. I don’t see any other option for my long term survival. Do you expect us to live forever without any peace of mind, expect us to wait for these people to destroy us?
If I were a Palestine living in Gaza I too would feel a lot of insecurity and anger most of the time. There are people who are regularly killing my people and robbing me of my dignity. I don’t have enough food to feed my children. (UN/Red cross claim that malnutrition in Gaza even before the present conflict was one of the worst in the world). The Israelis took away most of our land and I see/ hear that they are still expanding their borders. When will they stop? Who gave the Israelis the right to rule over me and decide how much food, medicines enter Gaza? Am I supposed to tolerate this? Fatah wasn’t doing anything for my cause, that’s why I voted for Hamas. There have been a few times when I have regretted this decision. Maybe now is one of those times or maybe now is one of those times when I am glad that I voted for Hamas, at least they are doing something, standing up, showing that we too are human beings. And suppose I am one of those Palestinians who have lost family/ family member in the conflict do you not expect me to join Hamas in this fight for my dignity, freedom, revenge.
I can empathize to a certain extent with the Israeli and Palestinian citizens. However I can empathize much less with both their leaderships. I can imagine that partly the leaders are driven by the same emotions that the citizens feel. But I am sure that both these leaderships also take significant advantage of these fears and feed these fears to achieve selfish goals or goals they feel are extremely important. Like John Adams wrote ‘Power always sincerely, conscientiously, de très bon foi, believes itself right. Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak‘
which is that Israel gets a lot more attention for killing people than does, say, Sudan, Congo, Sri Lanka, etc.–this is b/c Israelis are (constructed as) white/Euro. This had always puzzled me (i.e., why is this Israel/Palestinian thing such a big deal, given that a lot more people are killed in Kashmir, etc.), so I asked white friends, and they gave me this idea (without missing a beat–so, I think it’s “true.”) What do you think?
As I said earlier, I think the international coverage has more to do with religion than anything else, where they can identify with one or the other side. For example, Sri lankan Tamil issue gets front page coverage in Tamil press but deemed not so important in say Hindi or Oriya newspapers / television channels.
Looks like the mostly Christian west takes the side of Israel and the Muslim countries and Muslims take the side of Palestinians. India used to be on the Palestinian side, but not anymore. I wonder where China is on this issue.
rob, i was agreeing more with the larger point made in #57: the creation of israel in palestine and flimsy justification thereof. and the fact that there is a middle-ground, as archana says: you can say the rocket attacks made from palestine are horrible, and also condemn the disproportionate retaliation by israel. i missed the hamas comment in the last line; but going by the general tone of the comment, i think ‘created’ in that context probably means that israel’s policies allowed extremists like hamas to gain sympathizers and sidelined more moderate organizations within palestine and the arab world. i certainly don’t think that israel actually organized/created hamas in a direct way. but there are covert ways of sidelining more reasonable actors to justify your own immoderate agenda. i can imagine (note: only imagine, not assert :)) a scenario where you try to shore up an extreme enemy organization by debilitating or refusing to work with moderate opponents, so you can then justify your own hardline stances. i’m not saying this is israel’s case wrt to hamas (i’m not knowledgable enough to say), but a lot happens behind closed doors that we don’t know about. and even if there was no intention involved to encourage hamas, some actions by israel may have inadvertently led to the strengthening of hamas (this is speculation, again; but plausible enough).
wow, i’ve never heard that one — even from my grandfather, a fanatic hindu if there was ever one 🙂 fwiw, i think delhi has the one of most awesome and interesting visible architectural histories among modern cities.
138 · DizzyDesi said
i didnt mean that either. i see your sentiment/point, all i’m saying is population growth is often less anyway in wealthier countries (eg developed north european countries) or those with disproportionate number of old people (eg japan). so the numbers to bring up here probably would be killed as a result of warfare, not gross birth/death rates. also another confounding factor would be that the high birth rate of palestinians may have something to do with the anticipated life expectancy of children also (or perception of the society). so imagine a scenario where most of the israelis in the gross death rate you present are dying because of old age (because israel is wealthier, has a far better medical infrastructure, actually their health care system is cited as a role model in US health care reform debates :)), but most palestinians are dying before their natural life expectancy. i’m not saying that is the case: just a fair possibility.
so no qualms about your point: just the usefulness of that particular metric.
140 · Ponniyin Selvan said
ah yes, scheduled interruption by ponniyin selvan to show us how tamils have been sidelined yet again from the national discourse in india 🙂
Thanks for your feelings. But I don’t really need it. My example is not to point out Tamils are sidelined, just to point out the extra media coverage for the conflicts in Israel/Palestine is due to the people identifying with one side or the other based on religious and holy land reasons.
103 · Nayagan said
you’re sinister sometimes, n. seriously, though, i think of you as more left than right, not extreme either way, but not really moderate either. i can’t recall if you declared everlasting love for dear ayn either or the anarcho-vegans. which really makes you not-classifiable. i think i’m gonna go with queer. 🙂
127 · ThinkSkinned said
128 · ANNA said
ANNA – and all other bloggers – with all due respect, if SM/readers were not comfortable with what Taz quoted, you should have asked her to remove it from the post. Once she linked it in her post, it is unfair to tell readers that that article is off-topic for readers, esp. if their comments were relevant and follow the commenting guidelines. This is, after all, a discussion, and Taz quoting the article indicates that she meant for it to add to the dialogue. You took issue with what was quoted, not what ThinSkinned commented- to me, it makes no sense to remove the comment, but leave the quote.
I think this issue should be couched more in terms of Palestinians having their own land and being recognized as a people with rights and control over their own destiny, rather than a mission to kills off Jews. Not that I really endorse Frances Fukuyama, but the basic instinct driving this conflict is the desire of Palestinians to have their own land and be recognized as a people, and the Israeli desire not to give up their land to indulge the Palestinian desire. Although nothing is for sure, much of this fighting would most likely be quelled if that ends up happening. Simplistically put : Israel got its recognition by the world community (barring certain neighbours) – Palestine now wants its own.
It’s about the parrellels this crisis has to America’s Civil Rights movement, to South Asia’s struggles for independence (both Israel and India partition happened in 1947),
Pardon me, I don’t see a parallel between Indian Independence movement and the current fight in Palestine. I don’t think the Congress governments in the various British Indian provinces (fro 1937) were lobbing missiles at Britishers. Infact they were against using violence as a policy for coercing the Brits to leave.
Please don’t tell us how to run our house. We have over four years of experience with this. We know when and how threads devolve and turn off the vast majority of readers and we will continue to act accordingly. Sometimes the baby gets thrown out with the bathwater but on balance we do the right thing. Thanks.
It would be a different issue if the U.S. didn’t push for democracy in a place that wasn’t ready for it.
The people agreed and voted for the group they wanted in power…”Hamas.” Are we spreading democracy or are we imperialists? If we are spreading democracy then we wouldn’t advocate the embargo on a democractically elected government. We didn’t like the results of THEIR election and so we decided not to play with them. If people can’t do business and function like a normal society do you really suppose that they will? Did anyone do a poll in Gaza before the election? Was it really a surprise that Hamas won? So basically it was a front for some long drawn out theatrical bs.
We(the U.S. and other Western countries) put together and funded the current state of Israel.
Why is it an issue for anyone living in the U.S. ??? Because your TAX DOLLARS are the main source of funding for the Israeli military. Those weren’t Israeli funded “smart bombs,” that killed all those civilians, those were U.S. funded, U.S. designed smart bombs.
Our voices are being represented in Israeli without our permission and we are being taxed for it.
If you want to say the hell with it… its their war. Then get your hand out of my pocket!
133 · rob said
Rob come on “stolen land,” better that you are studying in the US? Did you study that it (the U.S.) is stolen land too or does that not count because they weren’t members of a major religion or backed by millions of dollars? Manifest Destiny? Does that legitimize it? All that does is continue the fight because it validates ANYone’s manifest destiny at any time. Taking that position, you better live it up, because its only a matter of time before ours is over and the next group with a mission decides that your house is part their destiny. With enough press, lobbyists, and money, any group can be made to look like the victim and those in their way the attacker.
I’m guessing that the Golden Temple is too Islamic as it was funded by a Muslim.
The state of Israel knows it has to eliminate a big chunk of Palestinians to counter act the birth imbalance of Arab-Israelis and Palestinians to Jewish-Israelis…otherwise by nature the Jewish-Israelis will be a minority in their own country of which is already a minority in the region. If they were really for peace they would be trying to be friends with their neighbors who surround them.
Anyway all of this is just a ploy to drag the U.S. into a war with Iran. I hope you have a manifest destiny for the moon.
117 · rec1man said
Unfortunately the U.S. supported the election of this “Rogue” nation and then decided it didn’t like the outcome.
Is this the age in which any country that is majority Islamic that doesn’t lay down and let its people get trampled on by Apartheid like oppression being labeled as Terrorist and Jihadi?
So then by that arguement all Islamic countries should eliminate their military and sell off all their weapons to the U.S., Israeli and other “good” countries. If they retaliate or try to defend themselves then we will know who the terrorists are. Sounds like a great plan. Have fun on your mission.
You realize that this is only a blip in time and the cycle of bs has been going on for a long time. Its funny that your coalition is of Hindu, Christian, and Jewish people. Christians killed thousands of Jews and Hindus throughout history. Politics make strange bedfellows. I guess the Roman-Catholics don’t count for the Christian part of this group because the Vatican is completely against the current actions of Israel which is killing Muslims and CHRISTIAN Palestinians.