Though I was an early and vocal participant in the Great Sonal Shah Internet Debate of 2008, I am done arguing about it. This post is not about that directly.
Instead, I’d like to focus on some of the bigger issues behind the controversy, specifically: 1) how South Asian religious youth camps work and what they do, and 2) whether Sikh, Muslim, and Hindu organizations in the U.S. send large amounts of money to South Asia to support communalist organizations over there.
As always, I would love to hear personal testimony from people who went to religious youth camps, or who have been involved in any of the organizations I’m going to be mentioning. An ounce of personal testimony is better than a pound of theorizing, generalizing, and blah blah blah argument.
1. What’s at issue
These two issues are the central themes of a chapter in Vijay Prashad’s book, The Karma of Brown Folk, called “Of Yankee Hindutva.” They also feature in Prashad’s essay in Sulekha, “Letter to a Young American Hindu.”
The reason Prashad is so focused on Sonal Shah is pretty clear: to him, she seems to represent exactly the “Yankee Hindutva” he has been talking about for years. As I see it, the major things Sonal Shah is accused of are 1) being a part of the leadership of an organization called the VHP-A, which has a clear communal bias (no one seriously disputes this), and 2) speaking at HSS-US youth camps like this one (from the website, HSS-US appears to be considerably less extreme than VHP-A, though they do prominently advertise a new book they’ve published on M.S. Golwalkar). Ennis has also suggested that what is really worse than this might be 3) the fact that she waited so long to clarify her former affiliation: the cover-up is worse than the crime. I do not agree with him on that, but I do agree with people like Mira Kamdar that (1) and (2) might be concerning.
But what exactly does an association with the American branch of a Hindu nationalist organization tell us about a person? How much do we really know about the American branches of these organizations? How bad are they really?
Below the fold, I’ll raise some questions about the accounts Vijay Prashad has given of VHPA and the Hindu Students Council in his book, The Karma of Brown Folk.
Before doing that, let’s start with a personal testimony, from a person who actually disagrees with me overall on this issue. As I was browsing people’s various blog posts relating to Sonal Shah, I came across a great post and discussion thread by a blogger named Anasuya. In the comments to Anasuya’s post is another person named Anasuya (Anasuya Sanyal), who attended VHP camps years ago, and had this to say about her experience of them:
I too remember attending VHP conferences as a teenager growing up in the US and I had no idea of the political affiliations until I lived for a bit in India around age 17. Naturally, I was not in any kind of agreement with the VHP platforms, philosophy or actions and I even wrote a small piece about the American “face†of the VHP for The Telegraph!
And as a second generation Indian American, Indian politics were not a topic in the home and VHP conferences were a parentally-approved weekend outing since we were with other Indian friends. The fun part was our more responsible friends would drive us all to the place and we’d take over a cheap motel and party. Otherwise at that age, a weekend away would have been strictly forbidden.
I don’t remember too much about the conferences themselves–there were a few interesting group discussions/breakout sessions. I didn’t see any political content. If anything, the parents saw it as a way to participate in a big somewhat religious gathering, seeing as how more established religions in the US had youth events, whereas Hindus did not. (link)
As I say, Anasuya Sanyal disagrees with me overall, so this account shouldn’t be taken as a tailor-made version of what happened to support the “pro Sonal Shah” side of things.
Anasuya (the blogger) also has a great string of questions that follow from this:
Why is our analysis not able to convey the slippery slope between VHP summer schools and the genocide in Gujarat? Have we, as activists for a progressive world, so denounced a middle ground of faith, religiosity and associated ‘culture’, that we have ended up allowing the fascist right to take over that space? Is a VHP summer school the only option that a young Hindu growing up in America has for learning about her heritage, whatever this might mean? How far are we committed to having ‘youth camps’ about syncreticism, pluralism, and that most particular aspect of Indian heritage: secularism as both the church-state separation, as well as a respect for all faiths? With histories that include Hindu and Muslim worship at Baba Budangiri, or the Hindu and Christian celebrations at Velankinni? (link)
These seem like great questions, and unfortunately I don’t think there are any solid answers. Things like “Diwali Against Communalism” come off as a little weak. Inter-faith conferences and events are also great, but groups that are targeted by people like Prashad (like HSS-US) regularly particpate in them, so how much work does the “Inter-Faith” movement really do?
2. Looking at Prashad’s “Yankee Hindutva”
The only person I know of who has spent any energy investigating the American branches of South Asian religious organizations and youth camps is Vijay Prashad [UPDATE: I’ve now also been looking at some helpful work by Arvind Rajagopal], and I don’t find his account to be sufficient. I don’t say that he’s wrong, per se, but rather that I wish there were other people investigating these groups and filling out the gaps in our knowledge of them.
My first problem is with the narrow way Prashad defines his subject. Prashad explicitly states that he’s not going to look at Sikh or Muslim camps or organizations, because in his view the “VHPA is far more powerful (demographically and financially) and is far more able to create divisions within the desi community than to draw us toward an engagement with our location as desis in the United States” (KoBF 134).
In fact, I don’t think that’s true even on the face of it. Khalistani groups (now mostly defunct) and conservative Muslim groups historically have done as much to encourage self-segregation within second generation desi communities as the VHP-A. It may be true that the VHPA is more “powerful,” but without seeing membership numbers or financial statements, I don’t see why we should assume that. With his exclusive focus on Hindu organizations, Prashad seems to be employing a double standard.
I’m also disappointed in Prashad’s narrow focus on the VHP-A because, as a moderate Sikh, I’m curious to know more about how he sees Sikh youth camps and Sikh American organizations. (I attended Sikh youth camps as a child, and was even a counselor/teacher at a now-defunct Sikh youth camp in central Pennsylvania, in 1998.)
Prashad’s chapter has many long paragraphs of political commentary, as well as several pages on a figure from the 1920s, named Taraknath Das. He gets to the topic at hand about 10 pages into the chapter, when he connects the VHPA to the Hindu Students Council:
The VHPA acts multiculturally through its student wing, the Hindu Students Council (HSC), which champions a syndicated Brahmanical Hinduism (of Hindutva) as the neglected culture of the Hindu Americans. The HSC subtly moves away from the violence and sectarianism of related organizations in India and vanishes into the multicultural space opened up in the liberal academy. The HSCs and Hindutva flourish in the most liberal universities in the United States, which offer such sectarian outfits the liberty to promote what some consider to be the neglected verities of an ancient civilization.
Notice something familiar here? It’s the exact same rhetorical move that’s been made with Sonal Shah: though HSC appears to be more tolerant, accepting, and reasonable than the VHPA, that is only a front — in fact, they are really just the smiley, tolerant-looking face of a Global Hindutva Conspiracy. Actually, I am far from convinced, by either Prashad or the Campaign to Stop Funding Hate, that the HSC is a problematic organization at all. They insist that they have been an independent organization since 1993, and I have seen no real evidence to doubt that.
[UPDATE/CORRECTION: Several people have suggested to me that the links between VHPA and HSC probably were more sustained than this. I have also been told that some HSC groups — Cornell especially, before 2002 — and some of the leadership have said things with a communal bent. Those are important qualifications, but it doesn’t really alter my basic point, that HSC for its members is primarily a social organization, while VHPA has a firmer communalist focus.]
Another problematic assertion arises a few pages later in Prashad’s chapter, when he finally starts to talk about money:
Between 1990 and 1992, the average annual income of the VHPA was $385,462. By 1993 its income had gone up to $1,057,147. An allied group of the VHPA, the India Development and Relief Fund, raised almost $2 million in the 1990s (some of it via the United Way). This money is discreetly transferred into India. It is common knowledge that during the way of Shilapujan ceremonies across the globe toward the erection of a Ram temple at Ayodhya, millions of dollars in cash and kind reached India. It is also common knowledge that VHP and BJP functionaries carry huge sums of money in cash or kind from the United States to India.
First, it’s nice to see some dollar amounts here, though it would be even nicer if a source for those dollar amounts was given. Second, it may well be true that the VHPA has sent money to the Indian VHP, which was used for nefarious purposes. As I hope is clear, I have no interest in defending the VHPA or (and this should go without saying) the VHP/RSS in India. But it is simply not enough to say “it is common knowledge that X is occurring.” Some direct evidence is important. Again, if we don’t have it, it doesn’t mean a progressive ought to write these organizations off as harmless.
But what that lack of direct evidence does require is a different tone — we don’t know how much money is involved, so it’s misleading to write as if we do. It could be a lot, or it could be very little. It is a real possibility that the supposed financial might of “Yankee Hindutva” might be, in the end, somewhat overblown. The Indian branches of these organizations are huge structures, with plenty of independent ability to raise money.
Towards the end of the “Yankee Hindutva” chapter in The Karma of Brown Folk, Prashad makes a point that I think is very valid — the way in which second generation South Asian youth are taught their religious traditions via religious organizations and youth camps is often rather distorted. He quotes the great C.M. Naim quite appositely along these lines:
[C.M. Naim:] “The religious heritage that is being projected here and sought to be preserved and passed on to the next generation . . . is closer to an ideology than a faith or culture. IT has more certainties than doubts, more pride than humility; it is more concerned with power than salvation; and it would rather exclude and isolate than accommodate and include.” [Prashad:] In the United States there are mosques and temples but no dargahs (shrines), “not the kind where a South Asian Muslim and a South Asian Hindu would go together to obtain that special pleasure of communion or that equally special comfort of a personal intercession with god.” [C.M Naim, quoted in Prashad, 149]
I completely agree with this, though it seems necessary to also point out that this process of religious consolidation that occurs in the diaspora has also been occurring in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. The utopian vision of religious syncretism and blending is largely, now, a vision of the past. It is important to remember the history of syncretism and understand its legacy (Amitav Ghosh has often done that beautifully in his writings), but “strong” religion has largely displaced it in the Indian subcontinent in the present day.
As a Sikh growing up in the U.S., I have first-hand experience of the religious consolidation Naim is talking about. What we were taught about the Sikh tradition at Gurdwara and Sikh youth camps was often very different from what my cousins were learning back in Delhi and Chandigarh. Even the way it’s practiced — the actual ritual of visiting the Gurdwara — is a little different. (In the diaspora, most people go once a week, and spend several hours. It’s “like going to Church.” In India, the devout tend to visit the Gurdwara every day, but they only stay a few minutes. Religious practices are more concentrated here in the U.S., and also more isolated from everyday life. Ironically, through subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle ways, this process of Westernizing means that the relationship to religion can become more intense, and perhaps more extreme, than it is for most people in the Indian subcontinent.)
Of course, all this is a bit beside the point — as it’s a phenomenon that is interesting sociologically, but it isn’t really evidence of a rising tide of “Yankee Hindutva.” The first wave of second generation children who were raised with this uniquely diasporic version of South Asian religions are now in the their 30s and 40s, and for the most part they outgrew what they were taught in those religious camps as teenagers.
Some quick conclusions:
1) Not everyone who attends or speaks at an HSS youth camp is a fanatic, as evidenced by the example of the blog comment I quoted above.
2) It would still be nice if there were more options for exposure to moderate forms of South Asian religion in the diaspora.
3) Prashad’s decision to focus only on Hindu organizations and youth camps is overly limiting. It’s not just because it produces a political slant and a double-standard; it’s also analytically limiting, because there might be parallels and patterns among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims (and Christians? Jains?) that this limited scope doesn’t allow.
4) I am not convinced that the HSC should be lumped in with the VHPA. The former seem to very clearly by oriented to ABDs on college campuses — and serve primarily a social function. The VHPA is, by contrast, clearly tied to a communalist concept of Hinduism.
5) I agree that second generation South Asian Americans often get a somewhat distorted (more monoculturalist) image of South Asian religions because of what is taught by religious organizations and summer camps. But I am not sure this is really our most pressing problem.
Thanks for enlightening those who don’t live in India on the ground realities, Long Time Lurker.
I agree with everything you said.
Gaurav @ #188
VHP stands for Vishva Hindu Parishad. Emphasis on HINDU. Why in the world would Desi Christians or Muslims want to attend a meeting of kaffirs and “idol worshippers”? (answer: possibly to convert us)
Anyway, at the few meetings/parties I went to there were Southies there too.
202 · special desi unit said
Well…if they are hosting a benign cultural/social event, then this desi Christian would totally look in to it (the same way I go to Onam, even though I’m no Hindu). And not all of us are out to convert you! I don’t enjoy proselytizing, myself). 🙂
195 · Manju said
I think the comparison at THIS juncture is absurd. I’m talking about the social and political effects of a set of actions, not engaging in ad hominem attacks. At the same time, I recognize that this is a difficult conversaton in a difficult social setting – and that that should be recognized. The only thing I object to is that in the name of balance and thoughtfulness and nonpolarization, the ideas and politics and people and power we were discussing don’t get thrown out altogether – if that is the effect, then it is better compared to the Bush Administration than to McCarthyist tactics.
I mean look at this:
Yes, it is quite clear where I come from. I come from me.
199 · sakshi said
And a sense of balance you will get! 🙂 But what I ask for in exchange is that we don’t abandon in its entirety the project of looking at our leaders – whether formal or informal – and questioning where they are coming from and asking them to be accountable. This is especially the case right now for South Asian Americans re Sonal Shah because if it gets to the level of a Senate confirmation, the choices are going to be much more difficult. If you think it’s polarizing to talk amongst ourselves, imagine what it will be like once you introduce Chris Dodd’s interests and Bobby Jindal’s and Chuck Shumer’s and whoever else?
I said:
You said:
Well, why do you think I was saying you were defending Hindutva? What I was saying is that you presented a diagram of how a car works, but you haven’t told me where its going or what the impact on the individual parts is. Without doing so, the discussion loses some focus and distracts from the fact that social movements come in 1915915 varities, but it’s really who they are and what they end up doing that matters at the end of the day to those of us who are a bit outside.
And I’ve never been to an HSC meeting, but I’ve argued with gurus, I’ve argued with my mom, I’ve read the Gita, I’ve done papers on Taraknath Das, I’ve taken classes in college, I’ve lived in India, I’ve talked to my grandmother, I’ve talked to my father and my uncle, and I’ve talked to my friends of different faiths and in different times. The priest / engineer who does whatever bigger pujas we need done in our house told me that religion is a way of holding people down, which I found amusing. 🙂 I have even written e-mails citing the Gita to defend an acquaintance who was being publicly attacked by Hindutva people. If you look above, I gave a list of numerous other things that people could do to look into Hinduism. So while I recognize that people are not choosing what family or community they are born into, they have a chance, as they get older, to exercise their own minds and determine what they think and how they want to deal with it. For a time I thought I was not Hindu or that I was “eclectic” until I realized that sycretism and other aspects of my way of thinking about the world were heavily informed by particular sets of ideas that could be described as socially or culturally or even psychologically Hindu (the way Woody Allen is Jewish). Though I told a Christian proselytizer the other day that I don’t believe in God because I was annoyed. I’ll answer how i want 🙂
But I am losing myself. – the point is not about blame – and to the extent that this cycle of blame shame defensiveness and anger exists here, it’s counterproductive and I can acknowledge my own responsibility in that. And i get that – and i get that that’s a lot of what you were reacting against. But beyond that – you too need to get out of that cycle and see analytically what is producing the feelings that are going on. None of my acquaintances in India or more connected to India than most of the people writing here (i.e. born there, lived there, raised in the Gulf, etc.) have the slightest misgivings about questioning Ms. Shah – one of them even said when I was expressing my own doubts about some of my own actions or words – let her go live in gujarat with the last name ali and then see what she thinks. So that makes me think perhaps I am on the right path in terms of an American (exiled) desi, based on what I understand of things.
“3) Prashad’s decision to focus only on Hindu organizations and youth camps is overly limiting. It’s not just because it produces a political slant and a double-standard; it’s also analytically limiting, because there might be parallels and patterns among Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims (and Christians? Jains?) that this limited scope doesn’t allow.”
Disagree. To focus does not produce a political slant, and of course there are parallels in every community. So? By focusing he has become an authority on a subject that concerns many, and that is a good thing.
People, please. If you have that much to say, it’s not a comment, it’s a blog post of its own. Have the courtesy to write it on your blog and leave the link here. Thanks.
/rolls eyes. Vijay Prashad had nothing to do with thousands of Christians in Orissa ending up refugees in the last few weeks. What on-the-ground realities are you talking about if not these and how can you say “in the past”?
“but it wasn’t until attending a VHP-A summer youth camp that I actually felt a sense of pride and joy as a Hindu. I actually became a vegetarian at that first camp and have remained one ever since.”
There was no such thing as ‘Hindu identity’ before the British invented it, and people didn’t go around calling themselves Hindu. ‘Proud Hindu’ is a misnomer just as a community of proud owners of electric shavers as ‘Hinduism’ is personal and “inward-looking” in nature. Its only since the fascist brownshirts of the Sangh began mobilizing ‘Hindus’ that the proud thingy began its use as an appellative.
209 · kayastha_lady said
Your point is what exactly? Hinduism may be as meaningful a designation as “Pre-Christian African Animism” but faced with absolutist faiths who attempted to destroy and diminish the variegated practices and institutions of the subcontinent we can organize ourselves anyway we damn well please.
She’s a troll rebozo. It doesn’t matter how many times you call her out she’ll skulk back into the pit and come back and repeat her hatchet job again and again.
It’s best to ignore it.
210 · rebozo said
awww… poor threatened hindus, threatened much like the dispossessed white man in america.
206 · bunty said
Vijay Prashad pretends to be an expert on communalism and violence in South Asia. So for him to look at Hindutva violence in exclusion of everything else is pretty dishonest. At the end of the day if India is brought back on course it won’t be because of people like Prashad and his fellow travelers but because Hindus decide that there is no justice in using Indian Muslims as proxies for their rage against real enemies and past grievances . You people have no desire to build bridges and have shot down anyone who is representative of a sizable segment of anti-Hindutva Hindus.
212 · gba said
Right…because Muslims were brought to India in shackles by Hindus your analogy is spot on. You and Dr. A should publish an alternative history of South & Central Asia that has every last Silk Road Buddhist converting to Islam based on peaceful debate.
214 · rebozo said
louicypher (or rebozo, as i guess you are calling yourself these days), your innocent literalism is really touching in these days of raging cynicism.
From #185, looked to me like he is an expert on immigration and nurses.
There’s that white guilt and Desi Hindu Majority guilt I’m talking about.
Don’t bite!
Guilt gets you nowhere. Liberal guilt gets you even less. We are not responsible for whatever our “ancestors” did. Especially from a Hindu perspective of reincarnation. And yeah I don’t blame modern day Muslims for the same reasons.
217 · special desi unit said
recognition != guilt. i don’t feel the need to apologize for my situation.
63. “Indian,” that was eloquently put. In the dialogue on Hindutva in the West, the nature of the beast is constantly blurred and obscured and circumvented by second-tier issues of identity, plurality and sentimentality.
The fact that Sonal Shah’s association with the VHP is discussed in such an anodyne manner means that nobody remembers, with the appropriate vividity, what we’re talking about. We remember for half an hour after watching riot documentaries, and then we lapse again: Hindutva is just a form of overheated identity-seeking; the VHP isn’t a group you should be a public advocate for, but its alright if you’re merely involved.
Suddenly that’s the soothing consensus again, as appears here: because of her glowing resume, Shah’s appointment as a national coordinator for the VHP is a “tenuous personal link”; she says doesn’t believe in their goals, so why attack her for consistently associating with them?
It isn’t enough, somehow, that they are organizations with ideologies that veer into exterminationism, and political activities that literally could not be more abhorrent. Well, nobody who lives in India has the luxury of patronizing the VHP this way: I know very few people who would be comfortable having a lay VHP member in their homes, and reasonably so. The soft racism of low expectations is exactly what changes that equation in the US.
I’d be really curious to find a single group in India that hasn’t been screwed over at one time or another.
If you are a serious, sincere, die-hard leftist then maybe everything is black and white. But for most moderate people things are not so black and white. All politics arise in that gray area. Now you can nitpick as much you want instead of moving on and getting things done. All politics is self-interest at varying times in history. And if you look at history most politics is mixed with religion. But no doubt it is good to aim for an utopia of secularism and separation of religion from politics. The desire to fight and argue for that utopia depends on whether you are activist for some cause and whether or not you are the aggrieved party. Disclaimer: This is not to say that I support VHP/RSS kind of voilent politics.
Is that true? In India? I doubt it. Bajrang Dal, yes, most middle-class (or upper-class) people would be uncomfortable around them. But a lay VHP member more than likely is from the middle-class, and many are educated professionals. Many would fit in fairly well in a typical Indian middle-class urban environment.
I disagree with this idea that simply because the “Hindu” moniker wasn’t adopted until the advent of the British and Modern India, it should be discarded and considered dangerous. This same logic is used by people who say Hindus shouldn’t celebrate ancient or medieval achievements and instead move on towards a more modern faith. That flexibility and ability to change (and the tolerance that bore it) is a double edged sword for such people.
On one hand, they want the tolerance (as much as other Hindus), but on the other hand, they see organization as a threat to that very same principle, primarily and unfortunately, because it is the flagship ideology of the VHP and RSS. But change is once again part and parcel of the advent of Hindu identity and its possible that even moderate Hindus will adopt the title as Hinduism itself evolves.
The same people who preach tolerance preach to a very narrow segment of “Hindudom”.
For example, several comments up, someone remarked that singing “Ishwar Shankara tero naam” was somehow wrong and that singing “Ishwar Allah tero naam” served as what seemed to be the litmus test between liberal Hindu and RSS/VHP rioter. One can believe strongly in their religion (i.e. Jesus Christ is their lord and savior) without disrespecting another person and/or feel compelled to kill them. Not believing in Allah or Mohammad, as many people already do, does not make one a right winger or fundamentalist of any stroke. Ever heard of “Harihara”?:http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff32/squirmingflies1/519px-Harihara.jpg. Saying that Shiva and Vishnu are separate and therefore cannot appear in each others’ bhajans sounds ridiculously close to 19th century British Indology. Many Hindus believe they are very much the same.
This corner that many people here have painted as “acceptable Hindu behavior” polarizes and creates the very same beast they hate. I shouldn’t have to say this, but given the situation, I do not support the VHP and RSS nor have I ever given money to their organizations.
I agree. That’s like saying that since Native Americans did not call themselves that (or even view their disparate tribes as having any common identity, at least in the pre-contact era), there is no validity or applicability of the term “Native American”.
One of the first things Guru Nanak said is ‘There is no Hindu and no Muslim’. That statement alone tells you there was a social group referred to as Hindus at least 500 years ago. And Guru Nanak having been born into a Hindu family would not have used that term unless it was in widespread use.
222 Amitabh, you think the Indian middle classes read Sepia Mutiny? To put my cards on the table, by “people I know” I suppose I was referring to the intelligentsia, and not to a particular class position.
I think the term first appeared as far back as the 10th century (i’m forgetting now, but it is quite old). Before that, people identified themselves solely by their jati (many still do of course). We don’t have a choice at this point but to accept this label, it’s sort of been thrust upon us. The problem I have with it, is that it automatically suggests religion and I despise religion – whether of the sweet-sounding sort as expressed by saheli a few days ago, or the virulent kind as conceived by the Shiv Sena. Of course I realize some people just like to be religious and that’s fine, except that it bothers me that the hindu label covers both religious and non-religious people. I would be happy to see the ancient tradition become vibrant once again to capture the spirit of self-inquiry that was the essence of the “religion” now called hinduism instead of all this belief and faith based nonsense that it has turned into.
As my departing comment, here is my notion of Yankee Hindutva, it is different from what Amardeep’s post seeks to understand, but judging by many of the comments above, it could be related.
The only influential Yankee philosophical position is Pragmatism. Based on that, I consider Hindutva as something useful to ward off the predatory practices of extremists who believe in the superiority of other cultural traditions (Islam, Christianity and Marxism…). My default state is inclusive and accepting Human/Hindu, but if someone brings out their no-other-God argument fangs, I will borrow the Hindutva stick. It is useful to have the stick lying around in these times of expansionist tendencies.
In practical terms: I interact with everyone as humans, assuming people are nice. And I accept everyone’s religious beliefs, and their righ to keep those beliefs. But if the sweet lady and kid from the local arm of Jehovah’s Witness visits my home and wants to convert me, I will say I am a VHP activist, so please go away. If the sweet lady continues to bug me, and brings reinforcements, I will call the local VHP people. And if my local area has a problem with such people (including pushy Marxists as in Kerala), I will support the VHP monetarily, and vote BJP. If I feel my local area is accepting of all religions and cultures, I will vote for the more qualified person, and maybe give money to no one, or everyone.
Bottomline: Since pushy Pentecostals/Islamists/Marxists exist, Hindutva should exist as well. It is not all that different from the US having a military or animals having fangs. The country should not be defined or run by its military/fangs, and everyone should not aspire to become a soldier, but it is good to have a military in the background, because the world is not a benign and benevolent place. We will go about our life assuming it is benign and benevolent, as it IS most of the time, and this assumption makes for a better world for everyone. But there are times when this assumption doesn’t work, and there are non-benign and non-benevolent people. And Hindus, like everyone else, needs something to ward of such times and people.
Most of this thread’s discussion is based on moral ideals (such as not buying Chinese TVs). Note that I am a pragmatist, which usually means non-idealist.
Dear dissociated #226:
Unfortunately that is not how Hindutva exists in India, although it often tries to make your argument their locus standi, i.e. that of a persecuted majority. Their existence in India is more akin to a white supremacist group that believes and engages in violence (but one which has significant middle class acceptance) and which has created an elaborate narrative of past and present persecution. As with all good stories, there indeed is some truth (of the past persecution that is, not present) but it is exaggerated and simplified. If you believed them,80% plus Hindu India and its government – in cahoots with a (apparently) universally anti-Hindu media – is constantly denigrating and abusing docile, liberal Hindus (never mind that almost 100% of the said villains are Hindus). The surprise is that so many otherwise rational, intelligent Hindus have internalized this seductive narrative, and you can identify them from a mile by the buzzwords: pseudo-secular, minority appeasement, pinkos/communists, minority reservations, etc. Many such folks in the US are in IT and finance, and think that because they have a Masters or such in a technical field, they are insightful enough to be aware of their own prejudices and that only their passionate views are the whole objective truth. Many of these aforementioned individuals can be found blogivating on sulekha and elsewhere on the internet, and are frankly an embarrassment to Hindus and India because of their coarseness, obvious anti-Muslim bias and general lack of sensitivity.
i.e. Pseudo-secular. So how exactly it is “secular” to subsidize pilgrimages for specific religious groups and establish separate civil law codes for non-Hindus? In the United States the first amendment says “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion.” That is as succinct a statement of what “secularism” means as you will ever find. But what you get in India is secularism for the 80% and religious rule for the other 20%. Pseudo-secular is as good a word to describe the phenomenon as I have found.
But this attitude of yours, Indian, is exactly what people in this thread have been complaining about. You can’t have any sort of good faith discussion about the aforementioned issues in Indian politics because the minute you do a bunch of wingnuts like Vijay Prashad will pile on top of you with accusations of being anti-Christian/Muslim/Dalit, a hatemonger, a fascist, or pro-genocide. The tone is not constructive and only serves to polarize the debate and ensure that nothing will ever change for the better.
Reading the comments I have to conclude the VHP-A has done its job very well with so many commentators echoing their viewpoint. and defending their positions.
Hindutva is a political movement and bears little resemblance to Hinduism, the religion. Religion and politics make for a lethal combination Politicizing religion has terrible consequences, whether the religion be Christianity, Islam or Hinduism. Growing influence of religious right in India have made the toxic cesspool Indian politics even more toxic.
Yankee Hindutva from the responses generated by this post seems to be even more of a true-believer variety than its Indian sibling. Hinduism is definitely not under any threat in India it is a thriving religion practiced by a majority in India and doesn’t need protecting by the VHP and the like, if anything it needs protection from being hijacked as vehicle to justify the agenda of organizations that purport to protect it.
Oh and Vijay Prashad sounds like a hack, I had no idea who he was before this and will keep away from anything written by him in future. He seems to view everything through ideological blinders as well.
But it doesn’t have to be this way. Cultures can thrive by virtue of their intrinsic power as well. How did Hinduism make it all the way to Indonesia, Cambodia, Thailand? How did Buddhism spread to China and Japan? China specially was a thriving culture with brilliant traditions of its own. Nevertheless, they actively sought the knowledge provided by the Indian traditions. Huen Tsang and Fa Hien did not return with gold and silver from India, even though there was tons of it at the time. They packed their donkeys up with books instead.
The problem with hindus is that they no longer have access to their own experience. This is an important concept to understand. For example, when you live in India you see young men holding hands or walking around with their arms slung across each others’ shoulders. Nobody pays it any mind. Eventually, some of us travel the world, become “sophisticated” and learn that men holding hands means that you are gay. All of a sudden there is a new knowledge that dawns upon us. Now our experience of the phenomenon in India is forever changed. Now we “know what it means” when men hold hands. Those of us who indulged in this behavior can no longer do so. We no longer can access the experience we had before we became “sophisticated”. This is precisely what has happened to hindus with respect to their traditions. They can only look at them through the prism of Christianity and the two simply do not map on to each other. Hinduism sounds like a joke when considered as a religion. What sort of morons “worship” their pens and pencils, trees and serpents, tractors and bicyles? It’s up to hindus to try and figure out what exactly it was that the folks back in the day were up to. What questions did they ask? What knowledge did they produce? How effective were rituals? Whatever it was that they were doing, it was not religion (family resemblance notwithstanding).
And this is why I have no respect for VHP and RSS. You’re right to say we need some sort of defense and organization. But there needs to be an intellectual element as well. These organizations are all emotion no intellect. If we go this route, things can only get worse. The much, much better way is to figure out how to transfom this rotten, decomposing mess that passes for hinduism today so that the culture can be revitalized once more. This will automatically have a salubrious trickle-down effect on all of the subcontinent. (one hopes).
dissociation@226’s arguments may resonate with folks who tend to not lean too much on the left and can probably be called as moderatively conservative/liberal. Maybe most Hindus of India who probably vote for BJP (but don’t support VHP/RSS) fall into that category. I wonder whether that will be the so called “Sonal Shah” types (for those who still consider her a suspect) of American Hindus ?
VHP (more macho) and BJP are both off shoots of RSS. VHP leaders make outlandish statements then BJP gets to act all rational and “moderate”, relatively speaking.
I didn’t say the majority is persecuted, I just said there are occasions and locations where that happens, and I know that for true. In such instances, it is good to have the Hindutva stick. That doesn’t mean I support everything the VHP/RSS does, just as everyone in the US who support the US troops support water-boarding.
The closest analogy here is the relationship between Jews and the Israeli state. Most Jews feel an identification with the Israeli state, but the majority are appalled by the human rights abuses it perpetrates. Both the Israeli state and the people who hate it (such as Saudi Arabia) would like to paint ALL Jews as supporting the Israeli state’s abuses. But liberal Jews have resisted such identification, and carved out a position where they support Israel’s right to exist, but want nothing to do with its violence, and try to make the state mend its ways. This is the position I have vis-a-vis Hindutva. I don’t support their violence, and I don’t support both them and the Marxists trying to paint me (and other Hindu believers) as supporting the violence. But I support their right to exist, because I think they, and some of the positions they advocate (such as uniform civil code and temple self-regulation) are useful.
I do agree with Divya’s notion of revitalizing and reforming the culture, and I also agree that VHP/RSS is not the people to do it. I think the revitalisation can happen only when a majority of Hindus take an interest in scholastic philosophy (not the hand-waving kind).
That’s right. But isn’t that a cultural difference ?. I mean, westerners visiting India are probably advised not to kiss in public and they may avoid doing so even though they can’t figure out why such a harmless thing creates a big fuss in India. I do agree with the gist of what you say in other comments particularly this one.
It can’t just be Hindu culture that reforms though. It can’t just be Indian culture either. If India is ever going to be at peace with itself everyone is going to have to learn to settle down and stop trying to convert, rob, or swindle their neighbor. The Hindutva folks are guilty of this but so are all the organized religious groups dedicated to perpetuating identity politics and telling Indians that their fellow countrymen are the enemy. Organized proselytization, differential treatment by the state for members of different religious groups, and actual effective, rational governance instead of crony-driven patronage politics are what is needed. The violence you see in India from the Marxists and the various religious factions are all just symptoms of a deeper disease.
It can’t just be Hindu culture that reforms though. It can’t just be Indian culture either. If India is ever going to be at peace with itself everyone is going to have to learn to settle down and stop trying to convert, rob, or swindle their neighbor. The Hindutva folks are guilty of this but so are all the organized religious groups dedicated to perpetuating identity politics and telling Indians that their fellow countrymen are the enemy. Organized proselytization, differential treatment by the state for members of different religious groups, and crony-driven patronage politics are what needs to stop. The violence you see in India from the Marxists and the various religious factions are all just symptoms of a deeper disease.
Many such folks in the US are in IT and finance, and think that because they have a Masters or such in a technical field, they are insightful enough to be aware of their own prejudices and that only their passionate views are the whole objective truth.
I can relate to it. My sibling is an IIT snob doubled up (and now working) as an IT snob. He thinks because he is a national hero because he is a new economy professional (thanks to the Media) and can rationalize everything, including his extremist views, and that the humanities are trivial disciplines that can be perused by the quant/qual methods learnt in school. Sensitivity and liberalism is entirely out of the question. Inspite of his intelligence he threw a few words sympathetic to the Bajrang Dal’s genocide in Kandhamal. Generally in India these days, there will be just a few degrees of seperation before you encounter a cousin/sibling with the worst kind of extremist views we are debating here. Hindutva’s germ has taken seed amongst our own people. To quote Michael Douglas from Traffic “How do you fight a war when the enemy is your own family?”
Yogi
Given that the discriminatory articles against hinduism remain in the constitution and that Hindu temples have been systematically robbed to the extent that they can no longer provide any of the social functions that they used to and that Hindu pontiffs can be easily manhandeled on baseless, trumpted charges and that Hindus face discrimnation in the Indian states where they are a minority, Yogi, your statement above is incorrect.
Given the diversity of cultures and faiths within hinduism, it is easy for hindus to ignore whats happening to hindu faiths and cultures that are feeling the pinch.
For example I doubt if the majority of “progressive” comentators know or care about the AP temple land scam or the abuses of the law in the Kanchi Shankaracharya Case. Worse, double think regarding hinduism has been promoted in the culture for so long that most people do not recognize blantant double standrds right in front of them. Sapna in this thread epitomized this when she demonized people for singing a version of Rahgupati Raghava Raja Ram that was closer to the original*1, instead of Gandhi’s corrupted version — without even wondering why a traditional Hindu Bhajan will would even mention Allah.
The threats / discriminations / abuses that hindism faces in India is real. Frankly I do not see any non-hindutva party do anything about these — No non hindutva party did anything about the marrad masacre, I do not see any secular party lobying for a uniform civil code, or lobbying for ammending Article 30 of the indian constitution to give hindus the same rights as minorities, or lobbying to eliminate Article 370 (or at least esuring that it has provisions in it preventing the discriminations of hindus), or campaingning for a uniform civil code, etc.
I don’t see why the “progressive”, “liberal”, hindus have any moral authority to go aginst the VHP. After all, given that they have’nt stepped up in the face of what’s happening, the least they could do is to step aside.
(*1 The Vasihnavites here might be interested to know that the version Wikipedia considers to the original version, contains references to Girish aka Shiva /Shankar.)
All these threads on Sonal Shah gives me emperor-has-no-clothes moments. Excuse me. All the arguments flow from central point – that RSS/VHP are terrible organizations with terrible agenda. We are asked to accept this claim at face value, on faith. Why is it a crime to belong to VHP OR RSS? What is the crime that VHP/RSS are guilty of? And if they are so terrible, why are they not outlawed and put away? RSS and VHP have millions of followers and they buy none of the arguments or demonizations meted out. There is a major disconnect in how RSS/VHP and people associated with them view themselves and perceptions that distractors have created in media and academia. Not too long ago, the same demonic stereotypes about Sangh Parivar used to prevail in political arena too – but since than, BJP has formed governments in several states and at the center too – and people know first hand what BJP is about and they do not find it to be a monster it is made out to be. People are not ashamed to be part of BJP. Same thing with RSS and VHP – they exist out in open, operate out in open, and have followers all over world and are not ashamed to be part of such organizations. They feel they have nothing to be ashamed of. That demonzation is purely political and ideological that has no connect with reality. When I see these blogs and arguments, I wonder what world these people live in? A virtual world created by perceptions, propaganda, ideology.
About fund-raising. Sangh is not a money-dependent entity. What it lacks in money power, it more than makes up in volunteer power, people power, power in numbers – and they can raise massive army of local volunteers in no time in any corner of India. Funds flowing from USA to Parivar, even at the height of massive mobilization during popularity of Ayodhya issue, was less than 5 millions in 90s – that is peanuts compared to how much money Christians, moslem and left-wing organizations send to India for their nefarious causes. Do we see similar questioning of hidden agenda of missionaries and jehadis and how they fund it from abroad? Their charity fronts are rarely questioned even when their agenda is so obvious.
I remember sending $100 to VHP for Ayodhya Temple construction – It was returned to me after a year or so with a letter from VHP stating that VHP was prohibited by GOI from accepting funds from abroad for the temple construction in Ayodhya. VHP preferred to send the money back to donors rather than let GOI take over those funds.
I used to attend many VHPA functions and meetings in 90s. I personally knew many members and organizers than. Politics was never discussed or brought to bear in any meetings or functions. Meetings focussed on organizing event at hand, logistics, how to make it successful. Their focus may be exclusively hindus and hinduism, and one can accuse them of parochialism and looking out only for Hindus, but this perception of murderous, nazi-minded, genocidal, minority-hating, politically-motivated hate-mongering maniacs is entirely a fabrication none of the people associated with VHPA can relate to. VHP is a religious/cultural organization and not a secular or inter-faith organization. The fact that it is not a secular organization can not be held against a religious organization. I am a hindu. I do not have to become a secular even though government is secular. Similarly, organizations are free to be religious and people are free to form organizations that are religious, even in a secular country. Are people not free to be associated with religious or cultural organizations? Why Hindus and their organizations are singled out here? Could it be that this whole exercise of demonizing VHP itself is an ideologically motivated campaign of hatred built on lies?
“Why is it a crime to belong to VHP OR RSS? What is the crime that VHP/RSS are guilty of? And if they are so terrible, why are they not outlawed and put away?”
Well, then you can explain these Nazi formations to us. In any other countries such overtly paramilitary parades with Swastika formations would be banned. But Nazi chic is cool in Hinduism
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=OEuMmaMtzt0
“Are people not free to be associated with religious or cultural organizations? Why Hindus and their organizations are singled out here?”
People are also free to associate themselves with SIMI and the Peoples’ War. But last I heard both SIMI and CPI(Maoist) were banned and such an association will land you in jail. Why is an exception made of the VHP. Is it because India is a Hindu Rashtra?
“I used to attend many VHPA functions and meetings in 90s.”
Well then like it or not you have blood on your hands.
The central point in this whole discussion appears to me is the premise that the VHP tacitly (or maybe not so tacitly) condones extreme violence or even massacres against groups that they feel justified doing so. While the bulk of their other activities appears quite commendable, including instilling a sense of identity and belonging to the Hindu abds, this violent streak seems quite ingrained in its philosophy and that is what’s quite abhorrent to many including me. So can the VHP renounce this aspect of their beliefs? This is probably beyond anything anyone on this board can answer. So till that happens, I am sorry but anyone who is associated with VHP in any aspect, specially unaccounted fund raising, will be tarnished no matter how righteously they protest!
Ponniyin, yes it is a cultural difference. I realize I don’t write clearly enough. That was just an example, and is not so serious a matter. The point I was trying to make is that once Indians (specially hindus) have been exposed to the western description of a phenomenon they automatically take that to be the valid description or the correct description, even when it does not match up to their own experience. This is the serious problem. In matters such as religion where conceptual categories are involved, this has ended up creating a huge amount of cognitive dissonance in the hindu psyche. This applies to english speaking indians only (in india as well as abroad), which is pretty much the only category of indians I know, and the group I am interested in dissecting.
There has been no intellectual response by hindus in opposition to european descriptions. We have accepted that hinduism is a religion, without bothering to point out the absurdities of this claim. We accept that hindus worship without knowing what worship means. We accept that pandits are priests without knowing what a priest really is. We accept that hindus have certain beliefs when in fact you will never be able to find a common set of beliefs. We complain that our parents did not teach us what hinduism is, without it ever striking us that maybe there is no such thing.
I guess everyone goes into medicine and engineering and it leaves no-one to study cultures, so that it part of of the problem.
Pavan, Dizzydesi, KP,
I agree with your points. But as long as hindus operate within the framework of religion they will be screwed. They cannot be secular (it’s like saying let’s keep dharma out of politics). Their entire tradition is based on an ethos derived out of mythology which is woven into every aspect of their lives. From the perspective of secularists, they will forever be committing transgressions. If they give in to secular ideas then they end up with precisely the mess we have now, where you have to buy into notions such as minority status and what not. In fact, all communities are minorities in india. again this mapping of ideas from the west which does not work in india.
Language itself creates conceptual categories and in fact is one of the major forces that shape the very way one looks at or conceives of the world around them. Language truly is the vehicle for culture. And the very fact that there are English-speaking Indians (who also happen to be the socially, economically, and culturally dominant force in India at the moment) makes it inevitable that that group will look at things much differently than others. If you want to dissect this group, you need to start at a much more fundamental level.. becoming English-speakers has radically changed their underlying mental framework. For this group of people, it will be impossible to have an organic relationship with the desi ethos…at least at the deep, unselfconscious level you allude to. They have cognitive dissonance all the time. And I’m not excluding myself or my relatives from this.
I invoke Godwin’s Law. You lose.
Amitabh @ 244 – You’re right, but you’re taking the conversation to a completely different level of abstraction. Unfortunately, the thinking behind concepts such as secularism is not so subtle. Secularism is based on the idea that there are two realms – a divine one and a temporal one. What if in fact there is only one realm? (and I certainly don’t mean the divine one.) Cultures that are socialized to believe in the two-realm theory will face no dissonance at the idea of secularism no matter what language they speak. Cultures (including the scientific culture) that do not concede that there are two realms have to go through all sorts of contortions to force fit the idea of secularism into their psyches. This is partly the cause of liberal hypocrisy in the west, and pseudo-secularism in india.
There are only three possible positions you can have against the VHP. It is not clear to me which of these the commentators who protest too much holds:
1) VHP has no right to exist 2) They can exist, but they should give up violence 3) They can exist, and continue with violence
I haven’t heard any convincing arguments for 1. It is also kinda silly, like trying to unbreak an omlette, or asking animals to ungrow fangs. My cynical thinking is that 3 is what most of the screaming folks want, so that they can keep their livelihood, the little Gujarat Holocaust industry. I support 2.
To circle the Sonal Shah loop, here is a possible confirmation hearing scenario, one for Rahm Emannuel, who volunteered with the Israeli Defence forces, and one for Sonal Shah.
Q: Have you volunteered with the Israeli Defence Forces?
Emanuel: Yes
Q: Do you support the right of Israel to exist?
Emanuel: Yes
Q: Do you support the humanitarian abuses of the Israeli regime?
Emanuel: No
For Sonal Shah:
Q: Have you volunteered with the VHPA?
Sonal: Yes
Q: Do you support the right of VHP to exist?
Sonal: Yes
Q: Do you support the humanitarian abuses of VHP?
Sonal: No
If Emanuel can get senate confirmation with these answers, Sonal should get confirmed as well. Nothing more, and nothing less.
No point in addressing the PTR crowd’s flame bait. They look for fault exclusively among Hindus and as the saying goes even a broken clock is right twice a day. So getting past the Sonal Shah question, which only raises questions about how these types bloviate around the ongoing contribution of mosques to malevolent charities/their open support for ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Kashmir, it is fact that the VHP has never clamped down on those who participate in/excuse violence against minorities in India. And while it is right to look to Pak/Bang as contributors to the ill will, we are Indian and our concern needs to be the establishment of an equitable society in India inspite of these provocations. It is time for an American Hindu organization to emerge that supports a secular India (and strives to make it truly secular) and participates only in those religious charities that they have carefully vetted to be non-Hindutva or contributes to secular NGOs (e.g. Cry, Asha) that do good work. But I think a break has to be made with the VHP, there is a huge cultural divide (not necessarily defined between ABDs & DBDs)over issues like anti-conversion legislation. They just don’t get that people have the right to choose their faith and offering education/health services to gain goodwill is not coercion. I would gladly join such a group and defend it, in the real world, against the smears of the “progressives” that inevitably follow any Hindu organization.
The fact that the self-described liberals and moderates in this discussion characterize the VHP as “never clamping down on those who participate in/excuse violence against minorities in India” just goes to show (1) how factually uninformed we are about the VHP’s relationship to violence as a political modality, and (2) how conceptually confused we are about moderate liberalism.
233 Dissociated, your interpretation of Hindutva as a “stick” to discourage minority extremism is delusional. I mean… Do you follow the news? Do you read? Or is this a political formula you developed playing video games? It has no relationship with the actual practice of Hindutva.
Fuck this infantile conversation! “How “secular” is it for the Indian state to spend crores on the Hajj?” I think the Hajj subsidies are ridiculous. The Indian state also spends tens of crores on maintaining Hindu pilgrimage routes in the country. But the Hajj subsidy is a stupid, transparent bogey for Muslim-appeasement. Of course Muslims are appeased. Every possible, minute identity with voting power is appeased in India. Lingayats are appeased. Nairs are appeased. Marathas are appeased. Kukis are appeased. Meenas are appeased. Muslims are appeased.
But does the setup of the Indian state really privilege Muslims? Here’s one way to answer that question that isn’t grotesquely insincere. What is the most violently contested citizenship good that can be obtained from the Indian state? For more decades, the answer has been reservations, especially in Central postings. After Mandal, a huge majority of Indian castes are entitled to reservations in the All India Services. As the Sachar Report showed, Muslim communities suffer nearly as much of what we call “backwardness” as dalits — but Sachar was nearly lynched for opening the question of reservations for Muslims, and High Courts have interpreted it as anti-constitutional (because the Constitution only provides for reservation on the basis of “class,” which religion is not, but caste apparently is).
It is surpassingly shameful. Moderate liberals, my ASS. Do you know that multiple Bar Associations in India have passed resolutions forbidding their members from representing the young Muslims who police pick up on terrorism charges? That lawyers who resist this are attacked and intimidated? And that when these cases are finally tried, they turn up an acquittal rate of over 90%? Think about what that means!
What country are you people looking at?
I don’t think the deal is necessarily that they’re offering public services. The problem has been that they use the public services as a trojan horse to get into a community, and then once a critical mass of converts is attained they start bullying the rest of the community to either convert or face social ostracism (and that’s only if they’re being nice.) And to top it off the community itself isn’t allowed to build religious schools as an alternative. The best an organization that’s trying to counter the conversion attempts can do is act as a community organizer to have the village set up its own rival secular school.
Not all missions in India are the same though. The large majority of them are genuinely out to offer healthcare and education services. A significant minority, especially within the Pentecostal and Southern Baptist missions, are dangerous to have around though. They’ve been supporting Naxalites and various insurgent groups in Assam with financial backing and manpower and even those who aren’t actively engaged in thuggery are engaged in deliberate and willful disturbance of the peace. (In the United States going to a small-town church social and handing out fliers calling Jesus all sorts of nasty names and shouting at them would get you thrown in jail for disturbing the peace and incitement to riot. I don’t see why the same wouldn’t apply to calling Hindu deities prostitutes during festivals.) In any sensibly governed state the bulk of those types of people would never have been granted a visa to enter the country.