Numerous readers have been sending us tips regarding Raj Bhavsar, an alternate on the U.S. men’s gymnastics team who will get to compete for the gold in Beijing after all. The space opened up on the team after star gymnast Paul Hamm was forced to withdraw due to injury.
Bhavsar was an alternate in 2004 as well, but didn’t get to compete. Despite a discouraging few years, Bhavsar continued to practice and train hard this spring and summer on the off-chance that a space might open up. Now his perseverance has paid off, and we wish him all the best. Based on what his colleagues and trainers have said about Bhavsar, as well as his own quotes in USA Today and The Houston Chronicle, he seems like a class act. (The ESPN story on Bhavsar also talks about how Bikram Yoga has helped him learn to concentrate better in the past year, a fact that I find quite interesting.)
NBC also had a nice profile of Bhavsar during the 2008 trials:
And you can see him performing a whole routine on rings here. (The dude has some serious biceps!)
Along with the stories about Raj Bhavsar (an Indian-American), KXB linked in the News Tab to a story in Foreign Policy about the “world’s worst Olympians,” where India actually tops the list (only 17 medals in its entire history). There is an inevitable discussion waiting to happen there, on why India always does so poorly (as I recall we had a version of it two years ago, when the World Cup was on). I don’t have any big answers, other than the obvious ones given in Foreign Policy: lack of sports venues, lack of school sports funding, lack of investment in preparing athletes for the Olympics. I don’t know whether “culture” is also a factor; I tend to think not.
At any rate, this year India is sending 57 atheletes to the Olympics, including the Paes and Bhupathi team for tennis doubles (where I suspect they might have a real shot). We might profile a few of the athletes in subsequent posts, depending on what comes up upon typing their names into the Google. Pakistan, for its part, is sending 23 athletes; Sri Lanka is sending eight (or maybe seven, depending on how we add 3+4); and Bangladesh is also sending a small contingent, to compete for wild card spots.
And another thing, I see a huge divide between 20 something DBDs and those that are let’s say 35 plus. Take a look at the outdoor clubs at your alma mater…..chock full of Indian boys & girls who are gung ho about multiday backpacking & rock climbing etc. Groups like “Team in Training” in the metros are full of DBDs training for marathons. This set knows what it will take to get established, so now they have the time to think beyond the practicalities that fully occupied the parents of ABDs.
Going back to the case of Jewish-Americans, which almost seems to be the reverse of ours, remember that the baseball diamond/boxing ring was once more accepting to them than the Ivy League & the professions. But once these became open, it was rational consideration that lead their parents to emphasize academic achievement
Typical desi, exaggerating wildly to the point that it becomes a lie. Chock full of desis, eh? Have you no shame man?
I have watched plenty marathons etc and it is exceedingly rare to spot a desi in any of them.
Kaka-ji, why the handle shifting? Speak the truth boldly. That’s what Mao would want.
chock full of Indian boys & girls
If anything, it’s desi boys, you rarely see desi girls do any kind of sports, and it’s usually two reasons:
let’s call a spade a spade. indians are just not athletic people. it’s not a money issue.
the standard set of excuses we regurgitate every 4 years (no funding, no parental support for sports participation, etc.) is a crock of shit.
many poorer nations with much smaller populations produce larger numbers of higher quality athletes with even more pathetic funding.
there are countless examples of dirt poor athletes who grew up with no facilities or funding whatsoever and made it big…african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.
Mac (Prema): Welcome back TJ’s champion donkey fluffer. I didn’t say they were “ranking”, I just they were participating in this group that helps avg ordinary people train for this at an amateur level of performance. And I stand by this, Team in Training is full of desis who have it as a goal to finish a marathon. Good bye, keep those burros happy
african runners, brazilian soccer players, mexican boxers, NBA basketball stars, etc.
these are outliers, you cannot use the exceptions to prove the rule.
105 · Nikhil said
Nikhil/Mac/Prema, as a poor Indian, I have a question. What is a spade?
104 · HMF said
You forgot the big one.
107 · HMF said
Well, those are an awful lot of outliers.
You forgot the big one.
Which is?
111 · HMF said
Oh, c’mon…its so obvious. As big as the sun.
Well, those are an awful lot of outliers.
Really? what percent of the african population become world class runners? nba basketball stars? what percent of the black population are they? Secondly, all those sports mentioned require very little, if any investment into equipment, proper fields, etc…
Based on the random conjectures thrown out willy-nilly on this comment thread based on the scientifically rigorous “a guy/gal i know” method, it looks like this community will do really well if “pulling theories out of your ass” is made an Olympic sport.
113 · HMF said
shouldn’t you know the answer if you claim they are outliers. anecdotally, it appears there are a lot of poor athletes around. But, once again, I don’t really have a dog in the fight. wherever the data goes, I’ll go on this one.
i think larry summers said that desis are on average as atheltic as any other group, but exhibit less variance, ie congregate around the mean, and therefore are less represented in the extremes.
shouldn’t you know the answer if you claim they are outliers.
I do know the answers.. qualatatively. the questions were rhetorical.
for example, africas population is 922 million. lets say there are 100,000 track athletes in the world, that’s still .01% , assuming every single track athlete is of african descent. which isn’t true.
117 · HMF said
I’m not sure how relevant that is to prema’s point. the question is are world-class athletes from poor backgrounds are outliers or common. they appear to be fairly common and he gave a lot of examples, lending credence to the argument that we suffer more from nature than nurture, though not necessarily, since jalebis may be to blame.
why don’t all the people who idle away their time on this blog by arguing just for the sake of argument go and hit the gym instead?
i’m refering of course to those sad sacks who think genetics plays a part in athletic ability. it has all to do with culture, peer and parental pressure, support, etc
119 · chick pea said
i’m there, as soon as my jalebi suger buzz kicks in.
dear pseudo chick pea:
stop using my handle. thank you.
No one mentioned anything about ranking so quit arguing with a straw man. You claimed (lied brazenly actually) that outdoor clubs in colleges, and teams in training for marathons in metro areas, are “chock full” of desis. You can “stand by” this falsehood all you want louiecypher, but what do you hope to accomplish doing that? It just makes you look foolish and delusional.
107 · HMF said
Your assertion is a truism. All championship athletes are “outliers”, whether from Zimbabwe or from the United States. By definition, someone with exceptional skill and achievement is an “outlier”.
The question then, is why do some countries produce significantly more athletic champions/outliers than others? I don’t think the generic answer of “poverty” is a sufficient explanation. If that were the case, how can you explain, for example, the incredible number of Mexican world boxing champions? After the United States, no other country in the last 50 years has produced as many world boxing champs as Mexico. The list below is a sampling of some of Mexico’s boxing champions, but it is in no way exhaustive. Granted, these guys are all outliers, but Mexico is a country with less than 10% the population of a China or an India. You would expect that countries with much larger populations would produce proportionally a much larger crop of star athletes. But this is not the case. In my own view, genetics and culture probably play equally important roles in determining these outcomes.
Rodolfo Martinez 1974-1976 Carlos Zarate 1976-1979 Lupe Pintor 1979-1985 Marcos Villasana 1990-1991 Gregorio Vargas 1993 Alejandro Gonzalez 1995 Manuel Medina 1996 Cesar Bazan 1998-1999 Cesar Soto 1999 Jesús Chávez 2003-2004 Erik Morales 2004 Marco Antonio Barrera 2004-2007 Juan Manuel Márquez 2007-2008 Antonio Margarito 2008-??
Saludos!
how can you forget julio cesar chavez? is it b/c you know he really lost to pernell?
Good point, clearly expressed. But I wont be surprised if HMF still doesn’t get it 🙂
125 · Manju said
Chavez is in a class all by himself, man. It would be a disrespect to stick The Lion of Culiacan on a list as if he was a mere mortal. 😉
Considered one of the greatest fighters in history, Chávez won six world titles in three weight divisions: WBC Super Featherweight (1984), WBA Lightweight (1987), WBC Lightweight (1988), WBC Super Lightweight (1989), IBF Light Welterweight (1990), and WBC Super Lightweight (1994). Chávez also went undefeated for 93 bouts before his first retirement with a record of 104-5-2 (80 knockouts). World champions whom Chávez defeated include Jose Luis RamÃÂrez, Rafael Limon, Rocky Lockridge, Meldrick Taylor, Roger Mayweather, Lonnie Smith, Sammy Fuentes, Héctor “Macho” Camacho, Juan Laporte, Edwin Rosario, Greg Haugen, Tony López, Giovanni Parisi, Joey Gamache, and Frankie Randall, who had taken the WBC light welterweight belt from Chávez just four months earlier. He lost to only two champions: Oscar De La Hoya and Kostya Tszyu. He was held to a draw by two others: Pernell Whitaker and Miguel Angel Gonzalez.
127 · Tony G. said
tony, I disrespected Chavez b/c I think he’s one of the most cowardly fighters in boxing history. He lost to whitaker, the greatest fighter of that era, and more improtantly refused to give him a rematch so pernell could never reverse the robbery.
ditto for randall, who beat him and in the rematch was beating him again until chavez used an accidenttal headbut to quit, resulting in a weird victory. he refused a remtach for poor frankie until frankie was over the hill.
Oscar de la hoya clobbered him and if you watch the 2nd fight chavez quit on his stool.
he generally avoided the top fighters in the game, choosing to beat up on the greg haugans, but dodging simon brown and buddy mcgirt. his shining glory was a comeback victory against meldrick taylor, which was a gift too, but since taylor was never the same i think chavez would’ve beet him in an immediate rematch.
Well Mexico has a rich deep boxing tradition. Boxing is in their culture. Oscar De La Hoya, Julio Cesar Chavez, and Erik Morales all come from boxing families. And I’m guessing most (maybe all?) of those fighters started boxing at young ages. Boxing is simply a very popular sport in Mexico. I strongly suspect Mexico’s success in boxing is more a matter of culture than genetics. Likewise, football (as in soccer) is hugely popular in Brazil; Brazil’s success in international soccer isn’t a matter of Brazilians being genetically predisposed to soccer.
Does India have any sports traditions. Maybe cricket? Well guess what, India is doing well in international cricket. Any other popular sports? Eating laddu and jalebi don’t count! I’d say no. So I still suspect culture and tradition play a larger role than genetics.
One very important reason that people seem to missing out about the cultural differences regarding how athletes are treated in countries that have a strong sports culture: sex appeal. All those Mexican boxers have droves of female fans, despite the sport being a bloody one. If single men knew that that athletic talent would guarantee them a access to lots of adoring female fans and sex in India, I think we’d see more interest. The whole history of the Olympics has been connected with sex and sex appeal. Wives of the old senators et al were not allowed to attend the Olympics as they would possibly get dissatisfied with their old geezers of husbands on seeing the young athletes , who participated in the events naked. I remember seeing a picture of Prakash Padukone touching the feet of some minister after winning his championship years ago. A far cry from getting mobbed female fans.
Cause and effect are being conflated. Mexico’s great boxers are all post 1960s. India’s boxing tradition is much older (having been introduced by the British in the Indian army). India’s football (soccer) tradition is over 100 years, players are well paid, club organization is good, but the ranking is abysmal. Soccer, in my opinion, is the clearest example of the role of genetics (India clubs stars are no-hoper africans and brazilians). EPL is gaining popularity on TV (many Indians follow the english league because Indian soccer is way substandard). If India cracked the top 75 in soccer (and thats not asking a lot is it?), that would be nothing short of a miracle and I dont see it happening in the next 10 or even 20 years. Thailand also does reasonably well at boxing and they have their own version (kick boxing). Genetics also influences culture.. so not all cultural effects can be seen as independent of genetics. Desis are actually reasonably good at racket sports (esp squash > shuttle badminton > tennis > table tennis in relative order of depth) with some pakistanis dominating squash for decades. In racket sports, lack of size, foot speed, and upper-body strength can be compensated for (although in tennis, thats becoming less likely with the new racket technology) with hand-eye coordination and technical skills. In Athletics, the only area where India has decent records is middle distances. China wins the medals it does by careful investment and by maximizing the genetic potential it does have (the story of the guy who won the 110 hurdles is amazing.. apparently his technique is amazing even though his 100m speed is slower than many of the african guys he beats). My brother was in the indian military equivalent of west point and they go through a gruelling physical regimen (they are all fit).. still usually some foreign cadet from africa who studied there usually won the distance races.
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Brazil’s success in international soccer isn’t a matter of Brazilians being genetically predisposed to soccer.
soccer is a sport that requires elements of speed, endurance, skills, and size/strength. One can be substandard on one dimension but not more than that (except for the goalkeeper who needs to be tall and quick). Its hard to find Indian players who are not substandard on two of the four dimensions. If they have speed and skills, they lack strength and endurance.. and so the story goes.. So the outliers one needs (people who are really good on 3 of 4 dimensions) are hard to find.. because they are very rare. Brazil’s strength comes from the variety of peoples they have.. from the pure african types (pele) to the mixed variety and the pure white type (zico).
The island of trinidad and tobago is not known as a soccer powerhouse but they did qualify for a world cup. Their team (from memory) is entirely composed of carribeans of african origin. Funnily half the island is made up of descendants of Indian laborers. Trinidadian culture is hardly bookish or anti-sports. Explain why there is not a single Indian on the Trinidad Soccer team.. Extra points for bonus question: Explain why the Math olympiad team from Trinidad (again, not known as a powerhouse by any stretch of the imagination) in 2007 was entirely composed of Indian origin males. If these differences dont scream genetics, I dont know what else will!
Tony G: sorry to go off on JCC. Pet peeve of mine, like california rolls.
sn said …
Your points are well taken and hey, maybe you’re right. But I was speculating from personal experience rather than “conflating cause and effect”. Ok, sure, I’m of Maharashtrian descent, of typically short height and medium build, and was certainly hopeless with the shotput 😛 But I did very well in middle distance track events (800m, 1500m) here in the U.S., and I could even hold my own in the 100m and 200m (the track team of the high school I attended was stacked in those events though). And yes, I competed against Blacks and Latinos. One fellow two years my senior (I could not defeat him in the 400m) and was of Pakistani descent. I guess it’s possible I’m some kind of Desi genetic freak, but I do know my parents definitely didn’t want me winning track events. They wanted me winning spelling bees, science contests, academic awards, etc. They were most definitely anti-sports. My personal experience and the experience of other Desi people I know leads me to think culture does play a role.
The United States doesn’t do so well in soccer internationally but should be able to dominate if it were all about the gene pool. Soccer, although popular with kids and adolescents, just isn’t as glorious as American football, baseball, or basketball in American culture. Athletes like Allen Iverson, Barry Sanders, etc., would probably have been devastating soccer players. But … why would or should they play soccer instead of more prestigious and lucrative sports.
You mention Thailand … Thais ARE NOT known for athleticism at all, but they have a rich martial tradition in Muay Thai which carries over well into professional boxing. And you’ll have a very hard time convincing me the Dominican Republic’s success in baseball and Dominican players representation in American Major League baseball is due to some genetic predisposition as opposed to the intense popularity of the sport in that nation.
As for Trinidad and Tobaggo, I can’t really comment since I’ve never been there and don’t know anyone from there. Maybe your comments are spot on in that regard. But India’s is a country of some 1 billion people, a population comparable to China. Sure, India’s government doesn’t subsidize sports like China does. But even still, India’s almost complete absence in international sports is difficult to explain without taking culture into account.
BTW … no, I don’t think success in international sports is of any great importance compared to other issues India faces.
Good point, clearly expressed. But I wont be surprised if HMF still doesn’t get it
No I do get it, I was answering the point of African runners. But thanks for coming out of the woodwork to insult someone you’ve no comprehension of.
Moreover, to answer Tony’s point. I do think poverty has a determining factor. Again, what do you need to box? gloves, mouthgard, and a whole lot to be pissed about. Remember Chris Rock’s joke, “For every black boxer that beats on a white guy, there’s a Native American waiting to kick his ass.”
It’s the reasons why Black families are those that push sports the hardest in the US. (ie Williams sisters) What other viable opportunities are available to them? I’m not sure about the Mexican culture/opportunity structure but my guess, it heavily involves athletics. But in places like China/India your ability to code defines your dick size (like Thomas Friedman said, in China, Bill Gates is Britney Spears, in the US, Britney Spears is Britney Spears)
BTW … no, I don’t think success in international sports is of any great importance compared to other issues India faces.
It shouldn’t be an end goal, rather a by-product of a more health-conscious, active culture. Parents can’t believe their kids are wasting time by playing sports (other than cricket)
In my view, Indians should do martial arts more, we invented that sh*t. Plus when we emigrate here, we need to defend ourselves from mostly white bullies.
Yeah, I’d have to agree. I don’t think sports are exactly a complete waste of time either. A lot of American parents believe that sports teach values useful in life. Stuff like discipline, leadership, teamwork, the value of hard work, perseverance under adverse conditions, dedication, etc. “It builds character!” as they say. There is some truth to that mentality. True, there might be an overemphasis on sports at the collegiate level in the U.S., but sports have their place in culture and society. This is in very direct conflict with Indian culture and psychology in which sports are a frivolous waste of time.
I always thought it was odd that India’s martial traditions aren’t widely upheld and practiced as are other martial art traditions from around the world. Kalaripayattu, the Rajput martial traditions, etc., they’re all but dead and unknown outside of India.
All the while, I can peruse through a phone book and find studios that teach Karate, Kendo, Kung-Fu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Vale Tudo, Krav Maga etc. which represent martial traditions from all over the world: Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, West Africa, Brazil, Israel, etc.
The last of the traditional Tamil martial arts (e.g. adithada kick boxing, wrestling) seem to have disappeared in the 50s when my dad was a teenager. Good thing is that in part this was due to the collapse of vestiges of feudalism in TN, but it would of have been great if this could have been opened to all and expanded instead of disappearing. Right now the few students of these forms are East Asians & Europeans. But I do see scope for a resurgence. Upper Middle class parents in Chennai send their kids to karate classes so clearly there is a market for someone to do this as a livelihood
Amardeep,
Kinds of late in this discussion, but my Econ prof at Berkeley actually wrote a superb paper on this topic. You can read about it here. An NPR Morning Edition program on it is here.
107 · HMF said
i don’t understand why some of us are getting defensive about this.
let’s say that i show you two newborn baby boys – one russian and one indian. the two boys will grow up together in the US with the same parents, diet, etc…an identical upbringing. let’s also say that i have a crystal ball and tell you that twenty five years later, one will be able to run the 100m faster and bench press more weight than the other.
if i put a gun to your head and tell you to correctly predict the baby with greater athletic inclination or die, which will you choose?
Karate, Kendo, Kung-Fu, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Muay Thai, Capoeira, Vale Tudo, Krav Maga etc. which represent martial traditions from all over the world: Japan, China, Korea, Thailand, West Africa, Brazil, Israel, etc.
Many of these have commercialized (and probably lost some of its tradition – for ex, in korean MA, you need to bow to black belts and shake hands a certain way, but most TKD schools drop that) KP hasn’t as such, I’ve been to a KP school in bangalore, run by Ranjan Mullarat, and for example the students there when they enter, touch the feet of the instructor (like a guru-shishya relationship) now you won’t be able to get Susie homemaker to agree to have little Jimmy touch the feet of some guy every time he walks in to the “dojo”
Ok, Indians generally aren’t genetically as athletically predisposed as people of other ethnicities. I get it already! But I think you’re missing the point. It’s more like this … take two Indian boys who are identical twins, genetically and physiologically similar as two humans can be. Let’s say they are separated at birth. One one raised in India and the other raised in the United States by American parents. Which one will have a greater athletic inclination and opportunity to utilize whatever athletic traits they they may possess? How about two Indian girls?
How about two Indian girls?
Are any of them not raised on earth?
quizman
Kinds of late in this discussion, but my Econ prof at Berkeley actually wrote a superb paper on this topic.
The “superb” paper doesn’t mention India at all (of course its not hard to make a prediction, duh); I am guessing its probably the biggest outlier there is to their theory.. and consequently merits omission!
another abcd
You are raising a straw man. no one is denying that the environment/culture matters in achievement (of any sort); extreme deprivation in childhood can stunt intelligence, sure. so what? The point is that genetics sets rather sharp limits for sporting ability. and at the extremes (which is what the olympics are) genetics matters much more than in the middle (high school sports). Its just a consequence of how statistical distributions work. modest mean differences are vastly amplified at the extremes. How many people of indian orgin in the US make their living off competitive sports? Probably 100-fold fewer than people of african origin? To blame it on culture is to confuse cause and effect. Indian parents are totally rational (although they could be wrong in some cases, such as yours) when they don’t encourage their wards to invest efforts competing in domains where the payoff is low (this is different from working out for health and entertainment reasons); where there are exceptions (tennis?) its because there is a record of indian kids doing well.. and (getting back to topic) maybe now gymnastics. Maybe in the future talented indian kids (at least at the high school level) will be able to participate like the others (I suspect quite a few already do.. an acquaintance’s daughter is very good in basketball.. too bad about her height). I’d venture that african american parents dont do enough to encourage their kids in sports (or anything else for that matter). if you read the history of some of the nfl/nba/mlb players you’ll find out their parents didnt have too much to do with their success (unlike the atypical williams sisters).
A concrete example of a caucasian-indian kid. Dad is way shorter than mom who has talent/interests in sports. Kid is tall, athletic and excels in volleyball (star in school). What if the dad had married a shorter indian with interests in sports and equally encouraging?
fyi, math olympiads, physics olympiads etc. are not like the olympic games. In the sense that, it is a problem solving contest meant only for high school students. (because it wouldn’t make much sense to hold such a problem solving competition beyond a certain level)
It’s amazing that people don’t think that sports can help grow India’s economy and poverty situation. How often have an opportunity to participate in sports allowed the poor to climb the ranks and find prosperity. And while very few will make millions, a lot can find hope and opportunity to compete and participate regardless of social structure. As well, with the amount of sponsorship that exists, India would be able to welcome in a lot of money to help fund these programs without ever sacrificing a commitment to education and solving poverty.
anyone know how to get one of those t-shirts that Raj’s parents were wearing while watching him perform? black and white of raj on the rings. pretty bad ass.
Just saw the background piece about Raj on NBC. Made me proud, and I think kids secretly liked seeing him too. Coincidentally, I’m just about to go watch the “Harold and Kumar .. ” DVD with Kal Penn. I guess Desis are finally starting to break the Doctor/Engineer stereotype? Let’s hope so.
I dissagree with this statement “Indians generally aren’t genetically as athletically predisposed”
Especially in Gymnastics. Gymnastics you are not trained to be the fasted or the strongest. You are training against your own body. You have to have the strength to lift your own body and a smaller person is actually at an advantage. The one disadvantage Indians may have is their diet of no eating meat, but this can probably be overcome with other nutrients to build muscle.