And now, some interesting news from down under. The beautiful country of New Zealand is in the final process of rounding up 40 illegal immigrants (aliens? undocumented workers?) of Desi descent who entered the nation under the guise of a Catholic pilgrim group. The 40 had entered New Zealand in the run up to the Pope-sponsored World Youth Day in neighboring Australia –
About 220 Indians came to New Zealand as part of Days in the Diocese, a pre-World Youth Day event that gives pilgrims time with Catholic families and acclimatises them to the host country’s culture. For the first time, Days in the Diocese was extended beyond the host nation, with Sydney’s organisers asking New Zealand to be included.
During those days, though, 40 Indians went missing at different times in what appears to be an orchestrated attempt to stay in New Zealand.
…Parish priest Fr Peter Murphy said host families were “obviously upset” that the young people went missing, some leaving in the middle of the night - even jumping out windows.
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p>Interestingly, the local Sikh society played a key role in the drama & in rolling up the ring –
Scamsters in New Delhi had reportedly told them they had bought the right to live in New Zealand – at around $17,000 each…[Sikh Society spokesman Daljit] Singh, who has been in contact with some of the missing Indian pilgrims, says some are as young as 16 and thought they were coming here to study.But he says it is very upsetting for all the pilgrims, as they are now realising they have not bought a new life and were cruelly swindled.
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p class=caption-text style=”font-size: 80%; margin: 3px 5px; line-height: 110%” >Anand Satyanand, the Governor-General of New Zealand – Probably worth a blogpost at some point 
; FWIW, he happens to be Catholic.
The 39, masqueraded as Catholics while some are Muslims and Hindus, were billeted with Catholic families in Auckland on their way to the celebrations in Sydney.New Zealand Federation of Ethnic Councils’ president Pancha Narayanan said that some Bollywood movies are portraying New Zealand as an easy destination to migrate, thus giving a wrong impression.
For me, having spent a good chunk of my life in 2 states grappling with illegal alien (errr.. “undocumented immigrant”?) problems, one of the most interesting aspects of this was the crucial role played by the local (documented?) immigrant communities. Although sometimes stereotyped as turning a blind eye if not actively encouraging illegal immigration, in NZ the legal immigrant community was instead instrumental in lawfully & humanely rounding up the 40 –
[3 men] made their way to Tauranga, where they had heard there was a large Indian community and good prospects of finding work, and paid a taxi driver $550 to take them.[Sikh Society president] Manprit Singh said he had agreed to provide the men with shelter as long as they fronted up to Immigration New Zealand, and he encouraged the remaining 36 men to do the same.
Manprit Singh brought the three men to Auckland to meet officials yesterday. Daljit Singh was also at the meeting. He said the men were told they had to comply with their visas, which expires on August 5 or they will be “forcibly removed” from the country.
….A further 12 of the group that went awol have made contact with the Society in the past day and Daljit Singh said he was trying to arrange for them to meet immigration officials.
…The New Zealand Indian Central Association yesterday urged its members to help the authorities trace the remaining missing men, whom a Department of Labour spokesman said they were still trying to locate.
Some of the statements from the broader Indian community leadership are particularly fierce and it’s unlikely we’d ever see the equivalent from the leaders of LULAC –
[NZ Indian Association general secretary Veer] Khar says they are trying to stay illegally in the country and the Immigration Service should be doing all it can to catch them. He hopes immigration comes down hard on them and sends them straight back to India, saying they are damaging the reputation of all Indians in New Zealand.[Indian NewsLink Editor Venkat] Raman says it is extremely naive to think money can buy them residency in New Zealand. He says they should have known they would not be able go to a western country without proper documentation or secure employment.
I suspect for many, the reaction of the local legal immigrant community to the illegal newcomers is an interesting socio-political litmus test. At least in this case, when their loyalty to the Rule of Law in New Zealand was pitted against co-ethnic loyalty to fellow Desis…. Rule of Law won. Should, whether & to what degree this happens in other communities & countries is a crucial, if not well articulated, underlying factor in the (illegal) immigration debate world wide.
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[UPDATE] Since a bunch of the comments are interested in what I personally do (or should) believe about this case, lemme put a few simple points out there
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I make a strong distinction between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration
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LEGAL Immigration is GOOD–> there should be more, of all races, creeds, ethnicities, etc.
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ILLEGAL Immigration is BAD –> there should be less, of all races, creeds, ethnicities, etc.
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I think the “documented” vs. “undocumented” language is occasionally silly, often intentionally obfuscating, and at worst, tries to introduce a 3rd rail by casually making opponents sound racially opposed to all immigrants. The central distinction isn’t whether an immigrant carries “documents.”
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Opposition to Illegal Aliens on a Rule of Law basis is radically doesn’t make you racist / classist / etc.
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too many counter-arguments depend on blithely introducing racial / ethnic / class / “uncle tom” / etc. 3rd rails
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I certainly have a tremendous sympathy with the plight of the individual illegal alien (not unlike the sympathy I have for stories of parents who steal to feed starving children)
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If there were no positive rights with living in the US, I’d consider making ALL immigration legal
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Given that positive rights are here to stay (and, in all likelihood, will increase), the distinction between LEGAL and ILLEGAL becomes even more material in the future
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The socio-cultural pervasiveness of respect for Rule of Law is one of the primary things that makes some countries fantastic places to live and others crap…. so, I’m generally impressed with the NZ Desi community
While a few were indeed Catholic, coming from Punjab, clearly many weren’t
I have lost count at many stories I have seen posted in the news part of this website about illegal immigrants from India that come from the Punjab of all places. I just can’t believe at much people from Punjab will do to the west.
I suspect for many, the local, legal immigrant community present an interesting socio-political litmus test. At least in this case, when their loyalty to the Rule of Law in New Zealand was pitted against co-ethnic loyalty to fellow Desis…. Rule of Law won.
If this was Canada, there might be more loyalty to there fellow desi, then to the country that has given them a much better life then there homeland. And the gutless Canadian goverment would do nothing cause they don’t want to lose the big voting block that the punjabi community is here.
The oddest part to me is that Muslims and Hindus pretended to be Christians. How did they get the invites? Doesn’t some church pastor or whoever have to recommend the people to get a spot on the delegation?
Lucky they did not go missing in Australia. They would be some where in Baxter (middle of South Australian desert) or Christmas Island. If any of them were sportsmen then they would be given visa immediately like the ones from Sierra Leone during Commonwealth Games.
at least they weren’t in australia where one could come across an unfriendly alligator wandering around in the bush. is this the same suki dillon above who is known as a caucasian canadian guy who pretends to be of indian origin?
is this the same suki dillon above who is known as a caucasian canadian guy who pretends to be of indian origin?
Once again I get attacked for speaking the truth.
is this something you celebrate? it would be an odd position for a libertarian to take, considering the benefits of a truly mobile workforce. And however the movies portray NZ, i’ve never heard from a naturalized NZ citizen that the process was as long and arduous as it is in the US.
6 · Suki Dillon said
you and hmf, both.
Nayagan makes a solid point (#7). Immigration restrictions are, at best, some kind of “second best” solution; most are pretty clearly welfare-reducing (not that welfarism should be conflated with libertarianism).
Libertarians are pro-legal-immigration. Mobile workforce does not mean a free-for-all-walk-in-as-you-please.
M. Nam
libertarians have many positions; from anarcho-capitalists who reject the state on either utilitarian or moral grounds (and probably would sympathize with those who forced open borders de facto) to ordoliberal sympathetic types who believe that rule of law is a necessary precondition to a broadly liberal order.
[NZ Indian Association general secretary Veer] Khar says they are trying to stay illegally in the country and the Immigration Service should be doing all it can to catch them. He hopes immigration comes down hard on them and sends them straight back to India, saying they are damaging the reputation of all Indians in New Zealand.
Hmmm…Rich Indian settled in the West turning a blind eye to the plight of a poorer fellow Indian. Unheard of!
10 · Nayagan said
10 · MoorNam said
and in a deftly circular move, protectionism becomes an acceptable tenet of liberalism. with friends like these (and ron paul), libertarianism doesn’t need enemies.
11 · razib said
ordoliberals also care very fundamentally about the maintenance of free market conditions. jargon does not mask facts.
it would be difficult to disappear in new zealand as it has more sheep than people. i have relatives there. the locals think they’re maoris.
ordoliberals also care very fundamentally about the maintenance of free market conditions. jargon does not mask facts.
free market conditionals are conditional upon rule of law. one fact does not negate another. LOL.
16 · razib said
when you are done loling, you might consider understanding that ordoliberals want laws that do not interfere with market mechanisms. read the link you yourself posted. or this.
7 · Nayagan: it would be an odd position for a libertarian to take, considering the benefits of a truly mobile workforce.
10 · MoorNam: Libertarians are pro-legal-immigration. Mobile workforce does not mean a free-for-all-walk-in-as-you-please.
11 · razib: libertarians have many positions; from anarcho-capitalists who reject the state on either utilitarian or moral grounds (and probably would sympathize with those who forced open borders de facto) to ordoliberal sympathetic types who believe that rule of law is a necessary precondition to a broadly liberal order.
Libertarian policy is as Moornam indicated and libertarian viewpoint is as Razib illustrated
would have that that “suki” guy would have moved on from his jungle fever desi fixation thing.
when you are done loling, you might consider understanding that ordoliberals want laws that do not interfere with market mechanisms. read the link you yourself posted. or this.
ah, this must be why after world war ii german ordoliberals just declared open borders instead of instead of regulated guest worker programs which interfered with unfettered market processes!
12 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said
As much as I sympathize, this is not the appropriate thread to take on the anti-free trade movement.
I for one am happy that there is not unchecked Indian immigration to the US. It’s not self loathing, it is fact that whenever you have a large influx of poor immigrants of any race(e.g. Irish, Italian, Russian, Mexican, Chinese, Vietnamese) the sociopaths/extortionists follow to exploit their expatriate countrymen. We have been lucky that Indian racketeers have not settled in the US in significant numbers, it would be Indian-Americans who would suffer the most.
NZ has the right to select which immigrants it allows in. You can have hard working law abiding agriculturists from Punjab dying to get in, but if their skill sets don’t match the workforce needs of a “knowledge economy” they are going to end up right on the dole with the native Maori/Anglo working class
I actually work at Auckland International Airport and got involved in this story at a very early stage, as the first few guys to go missing disappeared from the arrivals area (into waiting cars we think)soon after landing. We initially thought they were just lost and I spent almost an hour searching all the toilets and back rooms in the airport for them! Local media has repeatedly pointed out that since their visa don’t expire til August 4th, they have not become overstayers YET. One of the group coordinaters tld me at the time that they had dropped a number of people from the group before they left India because they were suspicious of their motives for the trip.
In other news google is making everyone dumb 🙂 http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003228.html
The proportion of sociopaths and extortionists to non-criminal immigrants must be incredibly high if you actually think this is a real problem.
23 · Kermadecer said
there is that. what incentives did the program coordinators create by not vigorously pursuing fake xtians (or insincere tourers) at a high enough level?
oh yes they have. Just two days ago I was having dinne with a Priest who said that a few of the “pilgrims” have decided to stay on looking for work. I advised him to counsel the “pilgrims” not to do it. Visas expire on the 31st. I am dobbing them ( mostly Mallu Christians) in. It is partly about Rule of Law. It is also about ‘get in line mate’. If I can wait ages and wade through a maze of regulations to becoming a citizen, you can do the same. Also, every illegal immigrant tarnishes a legal immigrant. I congratulate the NZ desi community for doing the right thing.
alligators and crocodiles are different animals – sort of like lions and tigers.
27 · melbourne desi said
If you must seek the approval (outside of employers, that’s a nother issue) of those who would look down on you because they heard of poor Indians running amok within their visa stay-dates, then they are people you probably don’t need as friends.
If you must seek the approval (outside of employers, that’s a nother issue) of those who would look down on you because they heard of poor Indians running amok within their visa stay-dates, then they are people you probably don’t need as friends.
amen! down with race traitors. all brownz should be able to relocate to any country in the world.
What would Jesus do?
NZ has the right to select which immigrants it allows in.
So does Australia, Canada, The United States and western europe. These countries for some reason are held to much higher standard then anywhere else in the world. Yet almost anywhere else in the world countries treat there immigrants like crap and nobody even cares.
But it does not matter, how many immigrants that these western nations let in, its never enough for some people. And if they even say that these newcomers need to adapt or makes some changes of there cultural pratices to there new homeland and all hell break lose.
Yet almost anywhere else in the world countries treat there immigrants like crap and nobody even cares.
that’s because of thousands of years of white oppression! people of color act the way they do because of the brutality of white male hegemony.
30 · razib said
yes, that’s exactly what i wrote. But if one is sleepless, worrying about what Mr. Doe down the road will think when he reads about illegal immigrants in the newspaper, then one is a tard.
30 · razib said
or, “Blaargh! Must make Stormfront bona fides in three sentences or less! Can’t be bothered to read comment!”
31 · Neale said
I don’t know what he’d do, but he may say,”Render unto Caesar…”
It is really bothering me that these guys got scammed out of all that money, thinking they were going to have legit. work permits. Why didn’t they use some third party to “hold” the funds until they actually were working in NZ, as portrayed in the movie “In this World”? That’s not a terribly complex contractual device. I suspect the scammers have disappeared–would be fascinating if they haven’t, as I’d put good money on them getting whacked in that event!
I agree with PAFD (#12) and Nayagan. I’ve noticed the “We’ve worked hard for it and deserve to be here” attitude among first generation immigrants (no offence to Melbourne Desi or anyone else), it is ridiculous. If people are so afraid of their “community” (yeah, right!) being tarnished, they are hardly living as equals and trying to perpetuate the model minority myth, aren’t they? Immigration laws have been drawn up and changed arbitarily by powers that be. Melbourne Desi’s approach of warning them of the dangers is commendable and practical. Please spare them and others any moralistic preaching crap (especially on how the image of the community would suffer).
PS: If some of the missing ‘pilgrims’ end up getting visas to stay on, that’ll be one good thing to come out of the Pope’s visit, eh?
It is really bothering me that these guys got scammed out of all that money, thinking they were going to have legit. work permits.
Indeed. I have no idea of the circumstances of the people involved, but I’ve seen people with decent jobs (in IT of all places) and prospects fall victim to the phoren trap. I just couldn’t understand the desperation.
clever.
Suki, are you really a white guy pretending to be Indian? Someone made this claim about you on an earlier thread too. It would certainly put your commenting history in a different and very negative light. I guess if you are a masquerading white guy I don’t expect you to honestly answer this question. Why have you spelled your handle name as Dillon instead of Dhillon? I always kind of supported you on this blog since even though I disagree with you often, I felt your comments were those of a desi Canadian who really got put through the wringer by his family and culture; therefore you were justified to feel as you did. But if you’re a white dude then you’re a troll and just sick.
41 · Amitabh said
why so racist? are such comments allowed?
Yeti: I have heard that around 10% of all people (anywhere) are born without a conscience. If the right incentives for good behavior are in place these sociopaths will become attorneys/reiki healers/montessori teachers instead of loan sharks/hit men. An undereducated sociopath will have no choice but to act according to his/her nature.
There’s no reliable data on “being born without a conscience” and if anyone claims there is, they’re lying to you or distorting something.
Of all the arguments for and against immigration, the idea that letting people in creates an explosion in sociopathy is pretty weak.
It is a little difficult to believe that all of the missing pilgrims were genuinely duped by unscrupulous agents (unlike those Indian welders who were recruited from the Arabian Gulf to work in New Orleans on temporary work visas, their story seemed much more plausible). They might have paid the $17,000 etc., but that might have been just for entry. Perhaps they were not fully aware of the risks involved, but they could have been planning to abscond from the very beginning -40 people disappearing, that too some from the airport itself seems more than a little fishy. These ‘pilgrims’ seem more like the Mexicans who pay agents for safe passage knowing fully well that they are doing something illegal, but still willing to take the risk.
I said 10% of all people anywhere are sociopaths, I didn’t say that immigration will increase that %. I am saying that allowing in people who don’t have in demand skills will mean that more of them will opt for criminality instead of living “square”. Ask any Vietnamese, Hmong, or Cambodian businessman in California if I am blowing this out of proportion.
Putting this aside, it doesn’t make sense for a society to accept immigrants who won’t be able to integrate economically or socially. I wouldn’t want large numbers of Afrikaner neurosugeons out here and setting back the clock on race relations, nor would I want a decent desi who is barely literate in their own language coming out here for jobs that guarrantee poverty. But then again large numbers of poor Indians means more employment for professional activists in the US
Your initial statistic is based on absolutely nothing. Who says 10% of all people are sociopaths? Sociopathy actually isn’t clearly defined such that it can be properly clinically diagnosed. Even clinical categories such as Antisocial Personality Disorder are controversial.
Obviously, organized crime is something that crops up in immigrant communities. The question is the degree to which this is actually a problem and whether it should drive immigration policy.
Fail.
Upon what are you basing this weak guesstimate? How are you defining “integration” and what existing examples are you referring to? Are you talking about the Irish and the Italians? The older generations of Chinese Hawaiians and Californians, many of whose ancestors were uneducated immigrants?
Predicted integration – certainly in this case – is as irrelevant is it is illegitimate as a basis for determining immigration policy.
Because you say so? Are you saying that education level, fluency in English are illegitimate criteria? Hopefully you have no influence beyond your vote
I’m actually the head of a powerful think tank that decides these things.
Both education and fluency level in English vary in importance based on the kind of work people are coming over for. Filtering people out by education level and fluency in English might unnecessarily limit the available labor force. Furthermore there are solutions to these “problems” other than simply preventing people who don’t speak English well to immigrate to the US.
But keep getting mad and piling on the lame insults. It really helps get your point across, and it also makes sure everyone knows how brilliant you are.
Also, good work on the sociopath thing.