“Vote Both”: Sam Arora

Many people have been dismissive of a Democratic “dream ticket,” with Barack Obama as the presidential candidate and Hillary Clinton in the VP slot. For example, DailyKos, which is strongly pro-Obama, has been sharply dismissive of the idea, for a number of reasons. First, Obama has been putting himself forward as the “change” candidate, and the Clintons represent the opposite of “change.” Second, as a Senator from New York, Clinton doesn’t deliver “geographically” the way someone like Governor Bill Richardson (New Mexico) might [but what about Arkansas?]. Third, she is way too big a personality to be comfortable sticking to whatever message and strategy the Obama campaign is likely to devise. Fourth, all this talk of Hillary supporters defecting to McCain seems rather suspect — when it comes down to it, are committed Democrats really going to vote for someone who is pro-Life, pro-Iraq War, etc.? And finally, most people presume the two of them, by now, can’t stand each other.

Sam Arora thinks otherwise. Sam-Arora.jpg He was, until recently, a spokesperson for Hillary Clinton, and is still described as a “Hillary-ite,” though he is no longer with the Clinton campaign. He and some other Hillaryites have started a site called “Vote Both,” to promote the idea of a Democratic dream ticket, with either of the two candidates on top. Their project has gotten some media attention, and profiles in articles like this one. Sam Arora was also interviewed on TV here (check it out — he’s a pretty smooth talker!).

SM had a post on Sam Arora (the same Sam Arora?) here, when he was a contestant for a reality TV show. Sam was also one of the “50 Most Beautiful People on Capitol Hill” a couple of years ago (see this). (I will leave it to others to ascertain whether Sam Arora really is, in fact, “hot,” as he has often been described.)

I was earlier skeptical about the joint ticket idea, but now I’m starting to think it could work, as long as the two of them can come to agreement on strategy and message (and agree that Bill should go back to Chappaqua, and stay there until January 2009). Obama is still a “change” candidate, but after Reverend Wright, he no longer seems quite as fresh or revolutionary as he once appeared, and I don’t think working with Clinton will tarnish his image. Finally, any personal bitterness the two of them might feel for one another would undoubtedly go out the window if they were to win the election in November.

97 thoughts on ““Vote Both”: Sam Arora

  1. I thought this topic was about Sam Arora and not who is gonna be who running mate.

  2. 45 · Los Anjalis said

    So sure the site’s not authorized by any candidate (and it’s very possible that Clinton has NOTHING to do with the site), but it’s definitely SHADY.

    I appreciate the criticism, and thank you for pointing out the numbers so we can adjust our Write-a-Delegate page. We are up front that two of us used to work for Sen. Clinton, but VoteBoth.com is not pro-HRC or BHO. It is about putting these two candidates together on a ticket to go into the general election united and strong. BHO and HRC have turned out record numbers of Democratic voters and raised over $450 million. We believe that Barack and Hillary united put Democrats in the strongest possible position we can be to take on the Republican machine.

    The campaigns have been at war for 16 long months, and public polling indicates notable candidate-polarization right now, so I guess it’s not suprising that some on both sides poo-poo the idea out of hand. But I hope that, after the primary election dust settles, cooler heads can prevail and discuss seriously what ticket puts the Democratic Party on the strongest footing to finish the race ahead.

    Thanks for taking the time to debate the issue, and I hope the discussion keeps going. It’s good for our Party.

  3. Likewise let’s give black voters some credit and some brains here by respecting their vote and not attributing it to just voting for the person who looks like them. And by the way, Obama has HUGE portions of the blue collar white vote. That’s a fact that Clinton’s trying to create lies around. Again.

    Right on los anjalis lady. If “blacks will vote for blacks” was a default, then the black vote would have been more effectively mobilized a long time ago. (ex. remember Colin Powell’s name popping up briefly ten years ago?). And I didn’t know Edwards issued a statement that said…

    John Edwards for getting out of the race fast and telling people that he did NOT want to be the candidate that folks who didn’t want to vote for a woman or a black man voted for

    Good for him. Now that’s grace.

  4. From Amardeep:

    Obama does need someone who will play the “attack dog” role against the Republicans, and she has proven herself to be someone who can do that.

    Sigh. Where to begin? Firstly, Obama does not need Hillary to play “attack dog” or whatever against the Republicans. I sincerely hope this does not ever become a strategy. Put another way, if (tragically) Hillary does get running mate, I hope this is not the reason.

    Obama’s own method for winning over the Republican senate has been far more graceful, egalitarian and sensible than anything Hillary has done. Please read this. Hilzoy’s excellent post on Obama’s senate voting record. Here’s an excerpt:

    His legislation is often proposed with Republican co-sponsorship, which brings me to another point: he is bipartisan in a good way. According to me, bad bipartisanship is the kind practiced by Joe Lieberman. Bad bipartisans are so eager to establish credentials for moderation and reasonableness that they go out of their way to criticize their (supposed) ideological allies and praise their (supposed) opponents. They also compromise on principle, and when their opponents don’t reciprocate, they compromise some more, until over time their positions become indistinguishable from those on the other side. This isn’t what Obama does. Obama tries to find people, both Democrats and Republicans, who actually care about a particular issue enough to try to get the policy right, and then he works with them.
  5. so I guess it’s not suprising that some on both sides poo-poo the idea out of hand.

    I doubt this is true. To me it seems that more HRC supporters are behind this idea than Obama supporters. Many Obama supporters absolutely HATE the diea–and for good reason, too. It isn’t as great of a ticket that people are making it out to be. HRC will bring a lot of negatives with her as well. And I don’t think small positives will override the negative impact of her on the ticket.

  6. From Sam

    The campaigns have been at war for 16 long months, and public polling indicates notable candidate-polarization right now, so I guess it’s not suprising that some on both sides poo-poo the idea out of hand. But I hope that, after the primary election dust settles, cooler heads can prevail and discuss seriously what ticket puts the Democratic Party on the strongest footing to finish the race ahead.

    One thing that is undeniable is that the longer Clinton chooses to drag her campaign out, the dimmer the prospect becomes of her being invited to be the V.P. (A silver lining, in my opinion). “Vote Both”, as far as I can see, has no stance on this glaring reality. It’s amusing to me that emassing votes is the strategy used by “Vote Both” since Clinton clearly has no regard for the concept of…you know…votes (sound familiar?).

    Also my two cents on “candidate-polarization”: I am highly dubious of the implication that the whirlwind of ill-will that Clinton has garnered by continuing in the race is matched by Obama. While I am sure there are staunch Clinton-supporters out there, I am equally certain those folks who liked both of them (and would have liked to see a joint ticket) are quickly loosing their appetite for Clinton.

  7. 60 · Zen said

    Sam reminds me of Ben Stiller in that photo.

    I was beginning to think I was the only one who thought that.

  8. Amardeep, I think it is insane to suggest Clinton as VP. Not only has her style of politics been anathema for Obama-supporters, I can’t see her “attack dog” style being a pro for the campaign (and indeed, I would think it a liability). There exists an, in my opinion, ill-founded assumption that working class white folks in the “rust belt” just will not vote Obama. I don’t think that’s true; it’s certainly the case that some may choose to vote McCain, but just as New York and CA are going to vote for whoever the Dem is (regardless of whether Clinton is on the ticket), there are similar voters in OH/PA, etc. I would seriously worry that Obama would lose independent and cross-over candidates if Clinton, who is much more polarizing, were on the ticket. Clinton adds NO value to the ticket if they’re together. I think this suggestion comes from the perception that HRC might opt gracefully for an alternative to Presidential nominee instead of bleeding the Democratic Party dry. Maybe I am really cynical, but I can’t see her doing anything that benefits anyone but herself (including exiting).

    ANNA — you’ve been missed!

    Since when do the Clinton’s represent the opposite of change?

    For many, the Clintons represent establishment Democrat politics. Is that really news/new to you?

    or Richardson, who is half white and between Obama and him they make one whole white man so that solves that problem.

    Thank you, ST, for making me spill my coffee chortling. :)

  9. I’m just back from West Virginia campaigning for Hillary – so no, I won’t make any pretenses to un-biasedness.

    But just to clear up a few things: * Most of the people I met – and I met a LOT of Hillary supporters in public places, don’t necessarily match the demographic of old hicks, racists, etc. Most of our volunteers were fairly young, and both men and women.

    • A lot of them do take issue with being clubbed into an ‘appeal voter’ demographic – that’s just ‘low-information voter’ in kinder words. They’re more well-informed than the average Obama voter I meet at home, in fact more so because they’ve actively avoided heavy, heavy pro-Obama media biases and actually sifted through to the data and policies. Many of them could intelligently argue the pros and cons of, say, universal healthcare.

    • One of them pointed me to the latest news – that McCain is, indeed, hitting out at Obama using this campaign – but not in the way you’d think: From the McCain campaign this morning: ‘”Fatal Attraction” comparisons are kind of TABOO but that isn’t stopping the Obama campaign. Check out the story here. ABC’s Jake Tapper’s analysis is right on here: “I’d posit at the very least that it’s not keeping with Obama’s lofty campaign rhetoric to compare Clinton’s tenacity to psychosis”. ‘

    • Most of them started out pro-Obama, or ambiguous, like I did. Through the last few months, they shifted away from him, as they saw how he ran his campaign (direct quote: Barack Obama talks about how he will bring people together, in direct contradition to the campaign he’s been running – I’ve never felt so unwanted as a Democrat in my life, or more looked-down-upon. I thought this was the party that looked at every human being as equal). And they saw nearby Obama supporters who seemed to have forgotten the rules of public discourse and how human civilization has cultivated the art of polite disagreement.

      • I saw the belligerence of Obama supporters, yet again. Funnily enough, two months ago in Texas, we had to stand up to both, Obama supporters as well as Republicans who hated the Clintons. Now in WV, the Obama supporters were even more bellicose in their victory (like their leader?). I actually had a few Republicans say they admire the woman for her guts in the face of adversity. One man, out walking his dog, actually said “she stands for everything I believe in, y’know, her strength and human spirit and self-determination. I always thought Democrats were liars and thieves – for the first time in 55 years, if it is Hillary Clinton vs. McCain, I’ll have to think seriously about the Democrat”. (Of course, he seemed like he meant every word of it, and promised to donate, even asked for a Hillary sticker – but since he put the sticker immediately on his dog, I don’t know what to think :-) )
    • Me, personally: I’m one of those people who would rather “bathe in urine” than vote for Barry Obama. Sam, I’d be VERY reluctant to support an Obama/Clinton ticket, or even a Clinton/Obama one. I do believe Obama’s popularity is in line with typical American high-school camps – the nerds vs. the kewl guys, and this country needs to embrace wonkishness and move beyond superficiality if we’re ever going to get ahead.

    • In many ways, Barack Obama is not very different from what George Bush was in 2000 – and he may very well win, like Bush did vs. Gore: the same combination of easy charm, ‘Bring change in Washington’ platform, low content but high faultin’ rhetoric of ‘middle-of-the-road’ policies, etc etc. the rhetoric in direct contradiction to the past history of the candidate – George Bush talked about cleaning up the White House, and Barry has never done anything to prove he can bring people together or fight the good fight or ‘change’ anything – people, processes, or policies.

    • As a self-respecting human being, I cannot support a misogynistic, Jay-Z quoting candidate and his campaign.

  10. 62 · Chevalier said

    I’m just back from West Virginia campaigning for Hillary – so no, I won’t make any pretenses to un-biasedness. * One of them pointed me to the latest news – that McCain is, indeed, hitting out at Obama using this campaign – but not in the way you’d think: From the McCain campaign this morning: ‘”Fatal Attraction” comparisons are kind of TABOO but that isn’t stopping the Obama campaign. Check out the story here. ABC’s Jake Tapper’s analysis is right on here: “I’d posit at the very least that it’s not keeping with Obama’s lofty campaign rhetoric to compare Clinton’s tenacity to psychosis”. ‘

    So disingenuous. It was a Congressman supporting Obama who said this, and the Congressman promptly apologized for it. It did not come from the campaign. And the McCain campaign admiring Clinton’s “tenacity”? Oh, please. No self-interest there.

  11. Ugh. And I still cannot quote properly to save my life. Is there an FAQ that deals with this?

  12. Chevalier said:

    * Me, personally: I’m one of those people who would rather “bathe in urine” than vote for Barry Obama. Sam, I’d be VERY reluctant to support an Obama/Clinton ticket, or even a Clinton/Obama one. I do believe Obama’s popularity is in line with typical American high-school camps – the nerds vs. the kewl guys, and this country needs to embrace wonkishness and move beyond superficiality if we’re ever going to get ahead. * In many ways, Barack Obama is not very different from what George Bush was in 2000 – and he may very well win, like Bush did vs. Gore: the same combination of easy charm, ‘Bring change in Washington’ platform, low content but high faultin’ rhetoric of ‘middle-of-the-road’ policies, etc etc. the rhetoric in direct contradiction to the past history of the candidate – George Bush talked about cleaning up the White House, and Barry has never done anything to prove he can bring people together or fight the good fight or ‘change’ anything – people, processes, or policies. * As a self-respecting human being, I cannot support a misogynistic, Jay-Z quoting candidate and his campaign.

    Dear Chevalier: Please read this diary right here before you go any further about obama’s “cool kids” and “low content but high falutin’” and “never done anything to prove he can bring people together or fight the good fight” BS you’re spouting. Then come back and tell me if you REALLY think Obama hasn’t really accomplished something, or if Hillary Clinton has accomplished much more than renaming post offices or has really tried to take a risk on legislation.

    And by the way, again: Obama will have had 12 years of legislative experience and broad bipartisan support of his legislative moves, Clinton will only have had 8 and meh accomplishments legislatively. If you want to get down and dirty about who is trying to act like the cool kid or bully, you’ve gotta have your facts straight about what they’ve actually accomplished.

    I appreciate that you’re a self respecting human being, but where in the world do you get that Obama is a misogynist? he’s in fact got the support of hordes of feminist leaders in America and growing numbers of young women and I have no idea what you’re referencing in calling him a misogynist.

  13. Oh, and I do believe that many of those WV who will be voting for Hillary on Tuesday are the quintessential “low information voter.” This article for the Financial Times sheds some light on that. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2a50425a-1f86-11dd-9216-000077b07658,s01=1.html

    When you people have who are convinced that Obama is a Muslim and his wife is an atheist despite all the evidence to the contrary, I think you are dealing with an inalterably closed mind.

    Thus, I do not know useful a “unity” ticket will be. If there are voters who won’t vote for Obama based on total misinformation passed off as gospel truth, there is nothing that Clinton on the ticket can do to change that.

  14. I’m an independent but leaning towards the Democrats, specifically Obama (I would vote for Clinton if she becomes the Democratic nominee).

    Brown people like Sam Arora and Neera Tandon make me want to go out and vote for Obama or McCain. Hillary should NOT have these type of brown folks on her staff ;p

    Obama/any woman 08′

  15. We’re supposed to be good with words yet no one has sounded the Palindrome Alert?

  16. Chevalier,

    I would love it if you made sense.

    *Nobody assumes that all of Hillary supporters were racists or old or whatever you seemed to be implying. So the fact that lots of young people support Clinton is not at all surprising.

    *”Barack Obama talks about how he will bring people together”. How dare he. How does his campaign contradict this? I can list 10 things easily off the top of my head that Clinton does to contradict this.

    *When was Obama ever bellicose after his win? Was it when he said that Clinton would make a fine v.p. or even president?

    *And oh… republicans support clinton? and call her ripping apart the democratic party a “tenacity”? That’s shocking. (extreme sarcasm).

    *You would rather “bathe in urine” than vote for Obama? (that doesn’t sound like a terribly “ambigous” place.) I would never make that same statement about Clinton. I could never vote for a candidate who is pro-war, pro-life (among other things), at the end of the day. And the fact that you are equate Clinton w/ McCain more than w/ Obama tells me a LOT about the Clinton campaign. Comparing somebody like Bush whose father was a two-term president, who spent his whole life coasting on his family’s legacy, and who “won” an election that was a shame to our democratic process to someone like Obama who is… none of the above. And “easy charm” what?

    *”Obama has not done anything to bring people together”.. again.. I have to just say, “what the hell are you talking about?”…

    *”In many ways he is not much different than Bush?”.. what??..Did you reach this conclusion when Obama voted Against the war in Iraq, and Hillary voted for it?

  17. 66 · los anjalis said

    I have no idea what you’re referencing in calling him a misogynist.

    there’s a big obama-is-a-misogynist out there in feminist dogwhstle land. It includes:

    1. some sexist rap song that alledgedy played at one of his campaign rallys. unclear wheter it actually happenned.
    2. he pulled out a chair for her at the debate
    3. he said he didn’t know which clinton he’s runnig against
    4. he said ” “I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she’s feeling down, launches attacks…” (that’s the best one.)
    5. said she’s not only throwing the kitchen sink but also dishes, spoons, etc, or something to that affect (psycho woman)
    6. he said the race wouldn’t be over until she dropped out (too arrogant)
  18. @ Suffragette Manju

    At the height of the bittergate controversy, Obama, at a rally, made a reference to brushing off attacks, like “brushing the dirt off your shoulders,” which is the name of a Jay-Z song. Jay-Z is a mysogynistic rapper and since Obama was supposedly quoting one of his songs, he is obviously a misogynist himself, or something like that.

  19. Well, countless examples of his softness on misogyny, and his active pushing of sexist memes about Hillary. Which is why I would be reluctant to support a Clinton/Obama ticket. Taking just ONE ‘women’s rights’ issue, abortion rights, this is just the beginning of what I have:

    • He’s pro-parental choice – that’s one of the first slippery steps to curtailing abortion rights (better explained here: http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2008/04/obama-supports-parental-consent-laws.html)

    • He voted to stop a filibuster on Alito (a filibuster which Hillary supported)

    • He’s said weirdly conciliatory things like “I believe that women should have some control over their bodies and themselves” and that the decision regarding abortion “generally is one that a woman should make.”

    • At a Planned Parenthood conference, Obama emphasized the need for pro-choice groups to align themselves with religious and community groups that are also working on reducing unintended pregnancy (except that, those religious groups preach pregnancy-reduction via abstinence, and are strongly opposed to birth control)

    • He voted to strip millions of dollars from a child welfare office on Chicago’s West Side (June 2002). His defence: he pushed the wrong button by mistake. During his eight years in state office, Obama hit the wrong button at least six times.

    • And he’s often gone on record stating that pro-choicers “do not acknowledge the wrenching moral issues involved in [abortion...]“

    • He was okay with Roberts at the supreme court, saying he admired Roberts’ intellect and if he were President, he wouldn’t want his nominees overturned on ideological grounds (I mean, of course, you should appoint your supreme court judges based on maybe their taste in music?). His own chief of staff had to point out to him that if he voted for Roberts, he’d be held accountable for every conservative vote Roberts made, which would be bad for his career. of course, as with Wright, when it came to potential aspersions on his character he voted against Roberts’ confirmation.(more on his website: http://obama.senate.gov/press/050922-remarks_of_sena/), “Pete’s very good at looking around the corners of decisions and playing out the implications of them,” Obama said an interview when asked about that discussion. “He’s been around long enough that he can recognize problems and pitfalls a lot quicker than others can.”

    • Some of his quotes on this issue (from http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-presidents-faith-can-affect-us-all.html):

    “And what I have consistently talked about is to take a comprehensive approach where we focus on abstinence, where we are teaching the sacredness of sexuality to our children.”; “My view is, is that we should use whatever the best approaches are, the scientifically sound approaches are, to reduce this devastating disease [HIV/AIDS] all across the world. And part of that, I think, should be a strong education component and I think abstinence education is important.”; “I do think that — and I’ve said this when I was in Kenya — that there is a behavioral element to AIDS that has to be addressed. And if there is — if there’s promiscuity and we are pretending that that’s not an issue in spreading AIDS, then we’re missing part of the answer.”

  20. Well first, Clinton’s not going to lead the ticket so best-case hypothetical for you it’s Obama/Clinton. And second, even if its Obama and someone else, the alternative is McCain, and if you’re concerned about reproductive rights the thought of several conservative judges being appointed in the near future (JP’s getting old..) should make your choice clear.

    And, I’m sure attorney and executive Michelle would find the characterization of her liberal husband, and father of two daughters, as sexist rather amusing..

    Jay-Z? seriously? Hahaha, hilarious! let’s just say I’ve seen many a feminist get down to jay-z at the club or elsewhere.

    Congrats on WV though, 37th most populous state and chock-full of hard-working americans (I would say white, but apparently that’s redundant!) unlike us lazy colored bastards elsewhere..

  21. 73 Chevalier’s list is rather strange. 90% of which implies that you are extremely concerned about women’s reproductive rights. Which is odd then if you’d “rather bathe in urine” than vote for Obama, knowing that McCain is pro-life. All extremely shady.

    I didn’t know about the AIDS quote, that will be googled promptly.

  22. Wow. Some Clinton supporters seemed to have really defined mysogyny down. Earlier on the campaign trail, Obama said he did not want his daughters “punished” with a pregnancy, meaning he doesn’t want obstacles placed before their their access to abortion. But he is somehow soft on choice? Yeah.

  23. Well, not to get into a Clinton vs. Obama again – we’ve derailed this thread for too long, and I apologize for my part in this derailment.

    But jackal, being a father of two daughters is no cure for misogyny. Millions and billions of examples – trust I don’t need to bring those up. Suffragette Manju – no, it’s not only that his campaign played a Jay-Z song (“99 problems and a bitch aint one”?? Seriosuly? please tell me someone in the campaign knows English). while he strolled triumphantly into his victory party in Iowa. Obama himself QUOTED a Jay-Z song, made lewd gestures while referencing Clinton, and pretended to wipe the dirt off his shoulders and the poop off his shoe. It was a dogwhistle, loud and clear, in the great tradition of George W. Bush.

    And finally, all of this is just my reasoning for why I won’t vote for Obama. Come what may. Especially because we as ‘progressives’ need to build outrage against such behaviour, not condone it because some of us think the guy’s “kewl”, or Harvard-educated, or calls himself the agent of “hope and change” or whatever. WTF????!!!!!

    If I want another sexist in the White House, I’d just pick McCain ’cause I know he’ll never win a second term, and the pain will be extreme but quickly done with. Better to have a Republican in the WH than a pseudo-progressive who’ll block a real progressive’s ticket. I’ve stuck with Democrats mostly not because I like donkeys more than elephants, but because their values have resonated with mine. Now if Obama’s on the ticket, that’s not the case. So I’ll just take my boobs and stay home. And I hope to encourage a lot of others to do the same.

  24. Obama himself QUOTED a Jay-Z song, made lewd gestures while referencing Clinton, and pretended to wipe the dirt off his shoulders and the poop off his shoe. It was a dogwhistle, loud and clear, in the great tradition of George W. Bush.

    He wiped off the dirt that was being thrown at him at the debate. Dirt that she was not only allowing and encouraging, but also adding to it. And before saying, they were justifiable questions. Notice how he didn’t push back until he finally had to. He didn’t mention the Weather Underground connection to the Clintons till she went gleefully expanded after he had given his answer.

    And that’s nothing compared to everything he could’ve thrown right back at her. Like there isn’t dirt on the Clintons? Almost every accusation they threw at him–from flagpins to Farakhan to the Nation of Islam to Jeremiah Wright(not to mention the earlier “plagiarism” accusation –he could’ve just brought out Clinton connections to the very same accusations. But nope, he didn’t do that until he was pretty much forced to because she decided to take advantage of his decision not to play tit for tat in mud-slinging.

    And again, the brushing the dirt off the shoulders is not SPECIFICALLY a Jay-Z thing. It was understood by older bloggers and news commentators as him brushing it off, till the Jay-Z connection was brought up by the comments following the initial report.

    It is an expression that is widely understood now.

    And Listening to Jay-Z is not sexist? I don’t argue the problems in Hip-Hop. But what?

    So… what does that make Hillary Clinton? After all, Timbaland hosted a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton. (Aside from whole hypocrisy when compared to the sheer political ploy of the Sister Souljah incident with Bill Clinton.)

  25. Not to mention Hugh Hefner and his donations to Hillary Clinton.

    So please, stop equating a reference to sexism. Because if we’re going to go that route, then well pretty much everyone is guilty.

  26. Comment 79: That second line in the first paragraph should be: “and before you say the were justifiable questions.” not saying

  27. I agree with “De-luker” — if we’re going to play the guilt by associations game, we might as well play it with Clinton too.

    If: Obama “brushes dirt off shoulders” ==> Obama endorsing Jay-Z ==> Obama is a sexist

    Then by that logic: Bill Clinton committed serial adultery, sexual harrassment ==> Hillary remained married to Bill, forgave him ==> Hillary sexist too.

    Not that I’m endorsing that kind of thinking. In fact, I think it’s pretty silly.

    Chevalier, you really need to tone it down. There is no credible evidence that Obama is a sexist whatsoever, and your attempt to tar him with that label shows that you’re a little loosed from reality. Judge Obama by his policies and record, not by these silly insinuations.

  28. to equate Clinton with “progressive”, and Obama with “sexist” requires a suspension of belief in reality and logic that is the core characteristic of the current Clinton campaign.

    I have never seen a flimsier laundry list. (he used the word, “some”! gasp!). What is next? Is he way too good-looking and is therefore “GQ and elitist”.

    When Listening to Jay-z or not even that…making some reference to his lyrics (where the ref. itself has nothing to do w/ sexism or gender or anything) is considered “mysogyny”, that’s the day all of us feminists can go home and sleep soundly. The example you have cited as “dog-whistle” is a fine example of subverting legitamite women’s issues into a menacing political correctness issue. It’s the 2008-political/election version of emmett till. Very thankfully, this is first place I have seen this nonsense peddled as legitamite poltical criticism so that’s good.

  29. 78 · Chevalier said

    Well, not to get into a Clinton vs. Obama again – we’ve derailed this thread for too long, and I apologize for my part in this derailment. But jackal, being a father of two daughters is no cure for misogyny. Millions and billions of examples – trust I don’t need to bring those up. Suffragette Manju – no, it’s not only that his campaign played a Jay-Z song (“99 problems and a bitch aint one”?? Seriosuly? please tell me someone in the campaign knows English). while he strolled triumphantly into his victory party in Iowa. Obama himself QUOTED a Jay-Z song, made lewd gestures while referencing Clinton, and pretended to wipe the dirt off his shoulders and the poop off his shoe. It was a dogwhistle, loud and clear, in the great tradition of George W. Bush. And finally, all of this is just my reasoning for why I won’t vote for Obama. Come what may. Especially because we as ‘progressives’ need to build outrage against such behaviour, not condone it because some of us think the guy’s “kewl”, or Harvard-educated, or calls himself the agent of “hope and change” or whatever. WTF????!!!!! If I want another sexist in the White House, I’d just pick McCain ’cause I know he’ll never win a second term, and the pain will be extreme but quickly done with. Better to have a Republican in the WH than a pseudo-progressive who’ll block a real progressive’s ticket. I’ve stuck with Democrats mostly not because I like donkeys more than elephants, but because their values have resonated with mine. Now if Obama’s on the ticket, that’s not the case. So I’ll just take my boobs and stay home. And I hope to encourage a lot of others to do the same.

    I, as a progressive, take more issue with Ms. Clinton wanting to “obliterate” Iran and voting in favor of a needless war of choice, and not really regretting it to this day. Perhaps Obama is better of choosing a running mate who shares the values of multilateralism and diplomacy rather than someone who has exhibited poor judgment.

  30. since james carville chevalier is a little shy to name the “millions and billions” of examples of grandmaster obama’s mysogyny, let me help him out some more:

    1. ”The claws come out” comment
    2. Powers calls her “a monster” (unhinged, fatal attraction woman meme)
    3. He gave her the finger (i think that’s what he chevalier meant by “lewd gesture”)
  31. A couple clarifications and I’m off:

    • A lot of the surprised reactions from y’all are not because these facts don’t exist, or exist in my head only. These facts exist, and have been often catalogued, and extensively talked about. You may not have heard them before, and so react with “There is no credible evidence that Obama is a sexist whatsoever,”. This state of affairs is because any meaningful online “dialogue” in this primary had stopped about three-four months ago, when the dial was turned permanently up in mainstream media and blogs to Obama. The self-correcting blogosphere became a shadow of what MSM had become, for a few years immediately post 9/11. Dissent, disagreement has not been tolerated, any counter viewpoints have usually been ridiculed, usually with far less graciousness than I’ve seen so far on this blog, really. Desis are still polite in their anger, huh?

    Hillary supporters then went “on strike” from mainstream online America, went completely underground, and created their own blogs and platforms and webrings where they could speak without ridicule, blog without constant trolling, share analysis, thoughts and facts and yes, ‘feelings’ on the primaries as they played out, in a ‘safe’ environment. This is what any refugees do, any survivors do, when they’re publicly pit against a majority screaming for their blood and gore, often ridiculing them – they band together. A lot of these blogs are not ‘hidden’ in any way – you just need to want to find them. Most people don’t, because it’s easier to find people that only agree with you. That’s what happened to passionate supporters on BOTH sides. Unfortunatley, that also means that we’ve re-created the right/left divide in the ‘progressive’ media as well, and each half lives in its own sweet alternate reality.

    • Manju – I didn’t mean there were millions of examples of Obama’s unapologetic, carefree misogyny. I meant that there were a million examples of fathers of two (or more) daughters being misogynistic. EXTREME example (not connected to present discussion) – Josef Fritzl

    • Amardeep – you do have my eternal respect for the stuff that you write, because you usually tend to see all sides of the picture (apparently, except in presidential primaries). But anyone who says “the Clintons represent the opposite of ‘change’” has only bought into David Axelrod’s kool-aid, IMHO.

    • On the Iran comment – I personally also found it WAY too extreme in articulation, but the content was in fact exactly what every POTUS has always stood by. That is what deterrence means – “if you strike, we will strike back harder”. In fact, Barack Obama’s comment on Pakistan was worse, because he wasn’t talking about bombing Pakistan if they attacked anyone, but merely if they didn’t allow American military into the country to pull out suspected terrorists. We now have years of proof that American ‘suspicions’ amount to zilch reality, that they often have incorrect information & intelligence (e.g. the Chinese embassy bombed in Africa a couple years ago ‘by mistake’). If that doesn’t work, substitute “India” for “Pakistan” or whatever city/village/town you consider your own, and see if your bile doesn’t rise at Obama’s and typical American presumptuousness.

    • Finally, I’m still laughing at Manju’s insinuation that Carville ‘will take his boobs and stay home’. ew.

  32. 85 · Suffragette Manju said

    7. ”The claws come out” comment 8. Powers calls her “a monster” (unhinged, fatal attraction woman meme) 9. He gave her the finger (i think that’s what he chevalier meant by “lewd gesture”

    This is not unlike the alice walker v. alice walker’s daughter conflict. Ideology v. Ideology with neither side figuring out how irrational their position is as stated.

  33. 87 · Nayagan said

    This is not unlike the alice walker v. alice walker’s daughter conflict. Ideology v. Ideology with neither side figuring out how irrational their position is as stated.

    you can’t call a woman irrational. dogwhistle. but i met rebecca walker once. really hot.

  34. 88 · Manju said

    you can’t call a woman irrational. dogwhistle. but i met rebecca walker once. really hot.

    Rebecca choosing to raise her child up-close, instead of at arms-length, being the major difference between the two. Is that two dogwhistles in two?

  35. Rebecca choosing to raise her child up-close, instead of at arms-length, being the major difference between the two. Is that two dogwhistles in two?

    Well, rebecca is to her mom, what obama is to his…resorting to a traditional family and church after an eccentirc upbringing. i believe R is for O and A is for C. See, psycho history is the name of the game.

    Is that two dogwhistles in two?

    Now whether or not a cigar is just a cigar, it depends on what you’re smoking.

  36. Hillary supporters then went “on strike” from mainstream online America, went completely underground, and created their own blogs and platforms and webrings where they could speak without ridicule, blog without constant trolling, share analysis, thoughts and facts and yes, ‘feelings’ on the primaries as they played out, in a ‘safe’ environment. This is what any refugees do, any survivors do, when they’re publicly pit against a majority screaming for their blood and gore, often ridiculing them – they band together. A lot of these blogs are not ‘hidden’ in any way – you just need to want to find them. Most people don’t, because it’s easier to find people that only agree with you. That’s what happened to passionate supporters on BOTH sides. Unfortunatley, that also means that we’ve re-created the right/left divide in the ‘progressive’ media as well, and each half lives in its own sweet alternate reality.

    Hidden blogs for the prosecuted Hillary supporters from the blood-thirsty Obama. I realize now you must be off your meds.

  37. Dissent, disagreement (against Obama)has not been tolerated, any counter viewpoints have usually been ridiculed,

    What goes around, comes around.

    The democratic campaign (and MSM, liberal blogs) heaped similiar invective on GWBush/Republicans in 2004. And Madame Clinton played a role in that. Today, the same hyenas are snarling at her. Tomorrow, they will growl at Obama too if he does not toe their line.

    Be careful what monsters you create, for you may not be able to control it forever.

    M. Nam

  38. clearly NARAL Pro-Choice America would support an anti-abortion misogynist… :P

    This chevalier person almost seems like a caricature.. not a real person. Perhaps someone at Obama HQ is bored and playing devil’s advocate (except this devil seems incredibly ensconced in a hillar-ious echo chamber)