Long-time reader Kush Tandon was in India a couple of months ago, and since then he’s been slowly putting up the photos he took on his blog and on his Flickr account. As I was perusing them the other day, one photo stood out to me:
Kush also gives a caption to the photo to explain a little about the history of IIT Roorkee:
IIT Roorkee, once University of Roorkee, and before that Thomason College is perhaps the prettiest campus in India, something like Cornell University campus in Ithaca for North America. It is a quiet, green oasis that is about 150 years old. Its history spans training engineers for canal building in India, sappers for Indian military for many wars (British India and later independent India), for huge dam making projects immediately after the independence, and now with India’s economy opening up. (link)
I personally like the photo because it defies the clichés regarding what India looks like — which probably tend to dictate what we ourselves photograph when we go there. That is not to say that there isn’t another side to life, even in Roorkee (and Kush himself has a number of photos showing poverty as well as open trash). But both kinds of images are part of the story.
Do readers have photographs in their public collections that show images of the Indian subcontinent that also defy expectations in some way? If so, we would love to see them…
49. I might know you regardless of that. My name and photo are on the Facebook group Sepia Mutiny (on page 20 right now, Mallu name). My email is also linked on this comment. Let’s try. Just trying to stay somewhat anon. here. Employers are trolling the internets nowadays, you know.
Vamsi, those picture of the Mayfair in Darjeeling are stunning. Have you (or anyone else who is reading this for that matter)ever been there?
Am I missing something that happened in India in the past 9 years. Has Kanpur city’s name been changed to Kalyanpur? Or is Kalyanpur the mohalla where IIT-K is located? That is like calling IIT-M as IIT Guindy or IIT- Taramani :).
No, IIT Kanpur is not really in Kanpur city. It far away in a nowhere land near Kanpur (early on, there was an hour or bus ride from Kanpur, and no one lived on the route), that is known as Kalyanpur. That is where IIT is situated. Technically, you can call it IIT, Kanpur or IIT, Kalyanpur. IITians from IIT, Kalyanpur will make this distinction clear, that they are not from Kanpur city. Same goes with IIT, Powai/ IIT, Bombay.
However, in response to #36, I would say that the original distribution of the IITs to the four metros plus Kanpur was designed at least partly to make sure people from one part of the country got to study in a different part. In practice if your rank was high enough you could go anywhere, but otherwise, there was a reasonable amount of mixing of people between the ‘zones’.
History of IITs is very interesting. Nehru visited MIT, he fell in love with a place like IIT, and he wanted institutes on similar lines for newly independent India. His first idea was to convert a newly minted University, formerly an engineering college, University of Roorkee to IIT. But then Chief Minister of UP, I think Govind Vallah Pant would not let the state control of Roorkee handed to central government, a place that already 100 year old history. Then Chief Minister of Bengal, BC Roy (another freedom fighter stalwart) offered Kharagpur. Kharagpur was political prisoner jail in British Raj, and early campus was built using old jail buildings. Here is a wikipedia on history of IITs – in more formal terms. You will see how each IIT was picked.
The above seems to me to be either a classic case of “sour grapes” or simply snobbishness. I’ve been through the system and I can say with confidence that your average kid who goes to IIT (whether he used a coaching center or not) has the following two things in common: 1. She is significantly smarter than your average high school kid. 2. She has worked diligently towards the entrance exam in her high school.
(1) and (2) are practically common to almost everyone – its highly unusual to find an exception – coaching center or not. However, there are people who manage to satisfy (2) solely because of being put under the duress of a coaching center. Such lazy bones never manage to work hard once they find their freedom in college, and hence don’t do as well anymore. In contrast, people who satisfied (2) without going to a coaching center tend to be more of hard workers and do better with their grades than some of these lazy bones.
It is generally true that students who intend to get into IIT do not care too much (irrespective of whether they go to a coaching school or not) about the 12th standard exams, but that is because 12th std exams are pretty basic when you are preparing for JEE. Also, I know for a fact that most students who do well in the JEE also get good marks in the 12th standard exams, contrary to your false claim that they get barely passing grade. Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs or is it your imagination?
In any case why would anyone have to cry foul over others getting tutoring from a coaching school? If it was indeed possible to cram for JEE, what makes you think those who did not go to a coaching school did not actually “cram” by themselves, or through a personal tutor or something? The fact is, the coaching schools are there because people are willing to buy their services. They are perfectly valid ways of competing, and in my opinion don’t really change much in the grand scheme of things.
That was chachajis’s comment:
However, in response to #36, I would say that the original distribution of the IITs to the four metros plus Kanpur was designed at least partly to make sure people from one part of the country got to study in a different part. In practice if your rank was high enough you could go anywhere, but otherwise, there was a reasonable amount of mixing of people between the ‘zones’. Mine is:
History of IITs is very interesting. Nehru visited MIT, he fell in love with a place like MIT, and he wanted institutes on similar lines for newly independent India. His first idea was to convert a newly minted University, formerly an engineering college, University of Roorkee to IIT. But then Chief Minister of UP, I think Govind Vallah Pant would not let the state control of Roorkee handed to central government, a place that already 100 year old history. Then Chief Minister of Bengal, BC Roy (another freedom fighter stalwart) offered Kharagpur. Kharagpur was political prisoner jail in British Raj, and early campus was built using old jail buildings.
Here is a wikipedia on history of IITs – in more formal terms. You will see how each IIT was picked. Do read the wikipedia article.
Also, I should pitch in that the reasons for the lack of motivation of some of these high ranking JEE students who dont do as well in college could have something to do with the structure of curriculum within IIT than on their coaching past, or their sloth. It is common knowledge that the reason for the success of the alumni is not exactly the education they received per se, but more that the quality of the students who attend the institutions is good.
I have no reason to have a case of sour grapes or snobbery about this (I will leave it at that).
There is a reason the IITs changed the board exam requirement from passing grade to 60% in 2005. This was a real issue.
By the way, I have no reason to have a case of sour grapes or be snobbish about this (I will leave it at that).
I did not say otherwise. Please reread my comment (I have highlighted the relevant part here) before taking it as a blanket indictment of the academic ability or general worthiness of people who went to coaching classes, or of coaching classes being illegitimate. The fact is, though, that this entire industry has led to undesirable side effects, and the system should be reformed to reduce the perverse incentives.
While there may be borderline cases as there are in any highly competitive admission process and some qualified candidates miss out, while some others might end up doing well enough to make the cut on the day of the exam, the JEE is generally a very strong indicator of technical merit. Coaching schools definitely have the unfortunate effect that raw talent that is from a small town without a good peer group (although some of these people still leave their hometowns to spend 2 years in Kota or wherever), or people who cannot afford the high fees that these schools charge, are put at a disadvantage. However, the fact is that mere drill cannot transform any old student into JEE material, and that students who get into IITs through the JEE are still very capable. What is true is that there are still many capable (by an absolute standard) students who do not make it into the IITs, and outside of Pilani, some state colleges, and RECs, don’t have very good secondary options.
The rise of coaching schools is a natural response to the fact that getting into an IIT is a life-changing event. What is needed is for more IIT quality schools to come up so that there is a 20-30x expansion in affordable, high quality college education. This will reduce to some extent the extreme pressure built into the system, and also make sure that more capable students get the education they deserve.
Bridget Jones @45: Good point, in fact the new ‘IITs’ in Andhra, Bihar and Rajasthan are supposed to have strong programs in humanities, management sciences, and health sciences in addition to core engineering disciplines. So it does seem that the Planning Commission does intend for them to play a role similar to the one you outline. If that is the case, I say why not just have a well-funded Central university instead of an IIT, while existing IITs are strengthened and expanded, and the performance of those IITs that are lagging the average is improved.
JEE Whaa? Agree with you on the standards and baselines issue – that is a strong argument to increase the capacity of existing IITs. In addition, operating costs scale sublinearly with size, while start-up costs can be huge. So even on an economic basis alone, tripling the capacity of existing IITs over, say, five years, makes sense. But the Central Government seems to want them to do it even faster, almost immediately.
Kurma: In terms of the mixing – clearly there has been a shift over the years. There was a time when the five IITs put together had an intake of just under 1,000 students, and a separate merit list used to be developed for each ‘zone’ – the number of students who qualified from the five zones was roughly equal – about 180-220 each. So of course there would be mixing, but those with the highest ranks always went wherever they wanted.
But within the zones there were often huge imbalances, like students qualifying from Bombay or Delhi proper might be (say) 60% of all students qualifying from their respective zones. And BTW, Kanpur was set up before Delhi, and was originally meant for the entire Northern zone, only later the concept of a ‘Central’ zone was introduced, and an existing college of engineering in Delhi was upgraded to become an IIT for the Northern zone. So the ‘mixing’ rationale probably came later, but it did happen, and the IITs would often use it to convince those who did not get their choice of subject in their ‘own zone’ to travel and study outside their ‘zones’.
Having a cutoff doesn’t quite imply it was a “real issue”. It could just mean there might have been a few stray cases, and even avoiding those stray cases is, of course, a perfectly worthy thing to do. And I repeat: Do you actually know a significant number of students who barely passed 12th and made it into IITs? I find it hard to believe a ‘yes’ for an answer to the above question.
I can only imagine that Roorkee’s decision to join the IIT list was good for the institution because it is more likely that somebody desperate for some field like computer science might come there now (since it now has the IIT name) instead of accepting another branch at an IIT.
Roorkee becoming an IIT was a 60 year old issue, from the days of Govind Vallah Pant in 1950, it had even come up in the Indian Parliament a number of times almost like an recurring subject, also, regarding funding, and salaries.
However, what made it happen is……is that Roorkee city became part of new state Uttranchal, and when it became part of UA, the new UA Government did not have money to support the University, and pay salaries. So old history was immediately revisited, and fast tracked in the Parliament within a month or so.
It was financial crisis that was the tipping point. However, now, UA as a state is doing extremely well, with all tax breaks, especially sales tax.
Chachaji,
IIT history is more complicated, please read the wikipedia article. Read the visionary ideas by people like, Sir JC Ghosh.
In fact, in the first few batches (before JEE was instituted), they selected .001%m the toppers (or even less – something like that) from board exams from all States to these IITs, especially the early ones, Kharagpur, and Kanpur. I think it was after first few batches, IIT-JEE was constituted.
From day one, it was a pan Indian endeavor.
BTW, my photo journal linked by Amardeep has nothing to with IIT per se, I took pictures of places, and people I liked. Some of my favorite pictures there are of bazaars, and railway station.
IIT history is more complicated, please read the wikipedia article. Read the visionary ideas by people like, Sir JC Ghosh.
Kush, thanks for the link, and the history sketch of IIT Roorkee. I had no idea it went back that far, and that rather than being the 7th, it almost became the 1st IIT, or that the creation of Uttaranchal as a state had fast-tracked the idea.
here is one of my photographer friends, who recently won a fellowship to take pictures in india (he had been going there since 12th grade, learned the language etc) and was interested in the intersection of commerce, religion, and ‘modernity’ in religious places. his pictures might be what you consider ‘stereotypical’ India, although some have been taken in very unusual places. i would love to know what people think. are you turned off by this representation of india? are you appreciative of the aesthetic in the pictures? do you think the artist has a message? PS: i am doing this without his permission, but i hope you will not deface his flickr account. thanks for your consideration.
bulbul, you are right. I have not conducted a statistically significant survey, nor am I basing my statement based on the small sample of Kota folks I know (but there are anecdotes of this phenomenon in that sample). I am going off of the response of the IITs (and realistically, I think such a dramatic policy change from 35-40% to 60% is very unlikely to be the result of a few stragglers), observations by people whom I know, a couple of articles that I have seen on this, and news reports of CBSE raids on some of these schools because there were reports of these being place-fillers with most enrolled students never showing up (and in fact, many CBSE schools in the area around Kota are apparently reluctant to enroll Kota students who choose Rajasthan board).
I have been typing up my comments quickly, so maybe you found my tone brusque, dismissive or superior; I assure you it was unintentional.
more here.
So, JEE whaa? (Jeeva?), what did you conclude? Do we know each other?
You are not on Page 20 in my view of the group 馃檪 I was going to mail you.
Amardeep:
Amardeep, a little bit of irony there. 馃檪
There is a clich脙漏 (as parodied by Scott Adams on Dilbert in the character of Asok) that IITians are ridiculously brilliant, and since IITians tend to be overrepresented among Indian Americans (relative to the fraction of IIT alumni among the Indian population), this weird stereotype rubs off to some extent on other Indian Americans. A picture (good as it may be) of an IIT seems hardly the right candidate to break the stereotype. [I do understand the spirit in which the post was made].
That said, I will concede that desis who spent their childhood in the US may have had to put up with too many seriously-asked questions about exotification, leading to an opposition to a different kind of clich脙漏 than that of IIT alumni who are jestingly asked whether they can heat up their tea by placing it on their forehead.
The telekinetic ability to heat up tea would of course be an excellent addition to the JEE, as would the ability to detonate skulls. I’m sure that both will help select more well-rounded candidates.
Ah, that would be the day 馃檪 There’s more than the unpalatable mess food that stands between IIT folks and well-roundedness.
Were you being sarcastic ?
I have never understood the fascination with the ‘well-rounded’ spiel. Well rounded skills can be obtained in any decent Arts colleges – please leave the IITs out of it.
Was that a rhetorical question?
“Well-rounded” in this context is someone who has a reasonable balance between acads and social life, neglecting neither. Correlated with what used to be called “cat” and later “stud”, connoting someone who didn’t need to mug all the time. As opposed to “despo”. The complaint of too many faculty these days is that the residential JEE coaching centers are pushing too many despos through the system, who promptly break down once they’re in.
71 脗路 melbourne desi said
Oh, I don’t know Melbourne Desi. Plenty of IITians, I am told, eagerly seek to expand their appreciation of fine literature by being voracious readers of a fine publication known as The Human Digest. And Granta, of course. Apparently, avant-garde European films are also very popular among these gentlemen.* If they want to pursue the humanities and fine arts in their leisure (after doing more ‘solid’ coursework, of course), why not let their hands and minds be busy in these very edifying activities? It will all be useful to those wealthy and high-flying executive IITans when they will be on the broads, uh boards, of various philanthropies and art foundations.
*My knowledge is sadly applicable to IIT men only.
26 脗路 JEE whaa? said
<
blockquote>
Personally, I am not a huge fan of the expansion of the IIT name to as yet untested schools. I think what is needed is to first make sure these schools raise their standards to the quality of the top 3 or 4 IITs (something which I don’t think even Kharagpur and Guwahati meet today).
As a recent (2001) Kharagpur alumnus, I must protest this characterization of my alma mater. Like someone else said, this seems to display a UP (or more broadly, a metro-) centric view. Guwahati, as a recently established university, plus the on-and-off violence in Assam, might be considered to have slightly inferior standards compared to the other 5, but Kharagpur is the oldest and biggest IIT by far, and the standards (of professors, facilities and students) and as high as in the other IITs, I can assure you. It happens to be located in a semi-rural area, which is the only reason why a handful among the top 200 JEE rankers select it, and this in turn leads to a (somewhat) negative perception of IIT-Kgp. By the way, if you look at the India Today rankings over the past 10 years (I know many consider these rankings a joke, but they are at least as credible as perceptions and rumors), IIT-Kharagpur has often been ranked at #1 amongst engineering colleges in India. Sorry for the rant! Anyway, moving beyond this, I do agree with your point about dilution of the IIT name. I am more concerned at the prospect of converting NITs (top state colleges) to IITs, rather than Roorkee, which had an established brand name (and an entrance examination that was equally, if not more, difficult than JEE) for decades.
If I may, why doesn’t somebody guest-blog a series on the IITs, or the state of post-secondary education in India? A lot of mutineers seem to be passionate about this topic (and the regulars at the bunker already have a lot on their plate).It could lead to a lot of interesting topics: BPO, brain drain, reverse brain drain, creativity or lack thereof in the Indian education system, the solid high-school curriculum in the sciences in some regions, remittances, the need for more dispersed technical education in India, the pro bono technical contributions IIT alumni and professors have made, the techie diaspora, the emergence of quasi-metro cities in the desh, the recent mathematical contributions of agrawal et al…..
Portmanteau for Guest Blogger! Seriously, you have what it takes.
Are you referring to the AKS primality test?
On this topic, here’s something for the linguists here: a Master’s thesis on IITM student slang, by Evelyn Richter.
Thanks for the pictures Kush – brought back memories of the good old days. And to all those who have turned a post on photography into a rant on IITS – take the chill pill. I turned out just fine and so did several of my classmates. I do however wish there was more emphasis on humanities and appreciation of the arts. I think that was what makes a civilzation truly great.
IITians believing that reading Human digest equals well rounded, ROFL. I am painfuly aware of the failings of IITians in more ways than one. However, with respect to learnability or teachability, IITians are sharper than many other DBDs.
Coming back to desi architecture, IIMA and IIMB have pretty interesting layouts. Has anyone seen the Veterinary Hospital and the SPCA building in Vepery, Madras.
This is more like it
My favourite one is the second photo ( photo of Hanuman ) on this BBC link..This is the contrast that Amardeep was probably referring too. Btw of the same genre is an infamous Tibetian photo ( not related to India though ) which I heard won a some awards
All this IIT talk is making me sad all over again because I couldnt make into it 馃檨
I was so obsessed with it that for the whole first year of my undergrad days, I felt myself like an outsider among my peers. Although, now I realize that I really belonged where I was 馃檪
BITS Pilani has a truly beautiful campus. The Saraswati Temple is amazing. And it’s in the desert, so even more impressive keeping it green.
I think there’s an IIT planned for Hyderabad now.
And, while not an Engineering school, The Indian School is Business (ISB) in Hyderabad is stunning! Seriously.
Could I put in a word for the many beautiful (and old) campuses of India’s boarding schools?
Slightly OT, but speaking of opportunities and higher education in India, the NY Times had an inspirational story about a small village boy making it all the way to the World Bank largely by dint of his own determination and effort, and using his bully pulpit to change conventional thinking about international migration. Most importantly for his village, he has also given back to its primary education system, although with mixed results.
Bangalore Street Photographs. Which Main? What Cross?
http://mainsandcrosses.blogspot.com
Eye for India http://eyeforindia.nlogspot.com
Which main? What Cross? Eye for India
Kushji: Nice pictures. Some day when I have time, I plan to upload lots of picture of Ahmedabad, that I have taken over last forty years. [including the one from our recent trip – in front of the famous “Lucky” restaurant that Anna talked about back in December]. Indeed India (for that matter even USA) is not all about Tajmahal and Washington Monument, but also about Chandni Chawk, Holy Cows, and South side of Chicago and Harlem ghettos.
I think the problem with some IITians not being too successful in the real world is that they think they are sharper than all desis and others and are not open to the fact that some really sharp people did not go to an IIT. Thus they end up either rubbing people the wrong way, not taking into consideration diverse points of view or being plain lazy. Of course, there are plenty (a majority) of IITians who do not have such issues and are quite successful thus.
I’ve been on the drive from Delhi to Haridwar (Roorkee falls on that route), and much as the IIT campus is beautiful, the area around it and in fact the whole drive once you get out of Delhi is one of unending bleakness and poverty. And this is a relatively prosperous area, when compared to eastern UP or Bihar! The only nice thing is the open fields and farmland, which stretch out green and fertile for miles and miles. But the horrible roads, the crumbling towns and villages, and the undernourished people, are all indications that India Shining is a joke. Delhi and Mumbai are very different from the vast majority of the rest of India.
Amitabh,
Although I appreciate your sentiment I don’t think it is right to undermine the work in India by making such proclamations. The roads are bad, there is poverty but there is also the India that Kush speaks of and last I checked Delhi and Bombay are parts of India as well, I thought the point of Amardeep’s post was that lesser known aspects of India don’t get half as much coverage. That being said, work is being done and it takes time in country with a billion people and it is naieve to think that everything can become rosy in five years.
Errr sorry to but into the IIT conversation but I have a couple of India pictures to share as well 馃檪
Mumbai 1 and Mumbai 2 I wish my pictures of Shiro in Mumbai came out clearer. It was so dark in there and I didn’t want to use flash but my god it could put Buddakan and Buddha Bar in NYC to shame! Nevermind the decor but the Cosmos were $14 USD!!
JOAT,
I think your pictures require authorization to view, I have been to Shiro and I love the place, there are other places that have recently opened in Bombay which are as good if not better, but you are right about Shiro it is an excellent spot.
Hmmm wonder if it’s your firewall??? Because there should be no need for authorization.
http://janeofalltrades.verveblogs.com/2008/Mumbai1.jpg http://janeofalltrades.verveblogs.com/2008/Mumbai2.jpg
Thank you, it works now.
89 脗路 Ardy said
I think most of my fellow “IIT-ians” will disagree, especially since we “believe” that everyone in India who wants to pursue an undergraduate degree in engineering, dreams to go to IIT, and has to go somewhere else only if he/she cannot make it.
On the other hand, I think some of the IITians are not successful not because they are not sharp enough, but they are lazy.
96 脗路 IIT_Alum said
IIT_alum assumes all smart people aim for engineering and not other degrees like Law, Accounting, Medicine …
Ambedkar Par in Lucknow: http://www.pbase.com/jaris/lucknow_india_a_dream_architecture http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/340483739_52664c97a0_b.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/340483740_7cf3ea1320_b.jpg
Linkified
Ambedkar Park in Lucknow: http://www.pbase.com/jaris/lucknow_india_a_dream_architecture http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/340483739_52664c97a0_b.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/340483740_7cf3ea1320_b.jpg
@96 IIT_Alum: ” I think most of my fellow “IIT-ians” will disagree, especially since we “believe” that everyone in India who wants to pursue an undergraduate degree in engineering, dreams to go to IIT, and has to go somewhere else only if he/she cannot make it. “
I think you are doing a great disservice to your fellow iit-ians by reinforcing the ‘arrogant iitian’ stereotype… There are many things wrong with the above assumption:
(1) Not everyone writes the JEE. Tons of extremely smart students decide to invest their time/efforts cracking their state ‘common entrance exams’ instead of the JEE… or choose a good college closer to home for N reasons.
(2) Unlike the early days, the path to a successful engineering career doesn’t require an IIT degree any more… so people take a lot of time weighing their investment of time on the JEE vs the returns on investment. People from non-IIT colleges get into very good unis and jobs all the time … and at the end of day, no one (except a deluded few) really care where you did your undergrad from. It’s what you do with your degree (from wherever) that matters.
There’s a heated discussion here, linked from DesiPundit: http://helloji.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/iit-insufferable-indian-tribe/ that discusses the IIT stereotype and about 200 comments for those interested.