Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally†make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping†to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience†or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
If it isn’t obvious to those of you who have been banned and deleted in the last week, trolling makes us less likely to focus on other important issues. Time spent moderating is time taken from posting.
I vouch that this is true as far as dating is concerned. In fact I sometimes think up new pick-up lines and unload them on my female friends in real life, somewhat as a sign of a tacit understanding that we should never date, not even if she likes to groan and moan before she gets into bed. Also it’s an excellent way to get rid of accumulated puns from one’s system, otherwise they will be prematurely ejected when I’m m getting interested in a date and cause grief for
everyoneeverytwo.Well, that’s not my experience in my Hindu family. And I’m only the second generation to have an education lest anyone think this freethinking is the result of Westernization. The DMK/AIDMK are pretty hostile to religion, especially Hinduism, yet wins in a largely theistic constituency over and over again.
I understand what you mean, it’s just that when people use words like ‘unique balance’ or say that they feel ‘in the middle,’ it sounds like it plays into the, ‘Are you more American or more Indian?’ paradigm – as if there are two poles and we can only move in a linear fashion between them depending on how many burgers we eat versus how many idlis we eat. This is extremely nit-picky though, and why I’m almost an English major. 🙂 & I think it might be an age/geographic difference, I feel like my peers don’t feel they have to ‘choose’ as much.
I think it’s fair to say that the majority of Indians are probably about as conservative as my father’s family in that they would be somewhat uncomfortable with their sons (if they were to go abroad) marrying non-desi women. Obviously there are exceptions like your parents who are ‘totally ok with it,’ but I don’t think it means that DBDs are generally more open to boundary-crossing marriage than desi diasporic communities are; you have to contextualize it – there are more than a billion of us (DBDs), from all walks of life, after all.
Hmm, I don’t think this is true… I’d actually be kind of surprised to find a Hindu boy who was even so religious that he was concerned with finding an equally religious wife, at all. I don’t think religious Sikh men are picky for wanting an equally religious wife, since religion is obviously important to the way they live their lives. Nor would I think that religious Hindu people are picky for wanting equally religious Hindus, though I imagine there is a lot more variation among them (e.g. caste/regional tradition, veg vs. non-veg, etc.).
Is Nads’ing your, um, nads, approved though?
Moornam, it is true that the Mougal’s were the ones who mainly persecuted the Sikhs – but they were by no way alone. The tragic events of 1984, while are not entirely related, are an example of mis guided hatred.
Also, it is not just that the Bollywood stars are not Sikh – its the negative stereotypes in the popular Indian media – everyone knows the Sardar jokes. Interesting, how it is ok to make fun of religon on such a large scale in India. Also, they are viewed as dumb, loud, and single-minded in almost all bollywood movies. They are caricatures – not real intelligent, role models. While many Indians, just laugh when I bring this up and say – Sardars laugh at these jokes too, I think people are really missing the point. A good paralell for this specific example is the way African Americans are viewed. White/Western standards of beauty, intelligence, etc… have really hurt the African American youth.
Hmm, I am religious, but not because my thinking has been locked up somewhere. I question rituals (e.g. my mother’s refusal to go the temple or to a pooja when she’s menstruating), I question my beliefs all the time. So far I haven’t been told to shut up… my brother, on the other hand, is such an unbelieving charmer that he once asked some of our relatives (who are very, very devout Sai Baba followers, like some people from this branch of my family live in the ashram outside Bengaluru), “You don’t actually believe all this ridiculous stuff, do you?!” There’s questioning, and then there’s hostility, and that probably has something to do with the reaction you get (these relatives being devout followers of Sai Baba, though, of course only laughed softly and proceeded to shame him with their dignified response).
Note, that I am an Indian and very pro-Sikh. I love Sikh musicians and actors, Manmohan Singh, and Sikhs in the army. I do not mean to be rude or offensive BUT:
I don’t think there’s any point in teaching your kids to wear a turban if you’re Sikh. A clear majority of Sikhs have moved on past that in the modern world. It’s just an arbitrary ritual with pretty much no significance or importance. It’s nothing but a burden and a hindrance (it may be a “symbol of heritage”, but there are other easier, less cumbersome symbols too).
As for people being “turned off” by turbaned Sikhs. It’s not random and strange that they are. It’s justified, and probably unrelated to 9/11. To people in America, it’s random and meaningless to wear something that looks like a diaper on your head*. Frankly, it looks stupid and has no justification outside of age old (meaningless) ritual. It would be like expecting people to consider those Africans who wear the weird neck elongation devices as normal “date-able” people. It just doesn’t make any sense.
*I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE. I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE.
lafuzda, whether or not you meant offense, you know your comment is gratuitously offensive, so why do you bother protesting that you mean none?
this doesnt sem to have been raised, but has buddy considered going the arranged route or internet dating. seriously, there seem to be gobs of dastar sporting sikhnies out here in the gta. there is the logistical hurdle of distance dating of course – some compromise will be needde.
is there a real alternative to the auntie route? … or the hairy krishna movement?
Lafuzada: if you don’t mean offense, why would you appropriate the vocabulary of hate and call a religious symbol a diaper?
Placing an asterisk in your comment or capitalizing your claims doesn’t make what you said any less heinous. Consider this a warning.
Because he’s a bigot.
Oh no wait, it’s OK, he likes Sikhs in the army and Manmohan Singh.
Like whne they say, I’m not racist, some of my best friends are black, but….
Stussy, you are right. The commenter has been banned.
It took over 250 comments to go there, but still, it’s…there.
nala
I know lots of Indians who don’t feel anything for their religion, but they go along with it all nominally just to keep their families happy. I’m probably one of them. But Indian society is centred around religion so much that it almost feels impossible to have an identity as an Indian (especially in the diaspora), without at least hitching yourself to religion in some way, even just visiting the mandir a couple of times a year, or in some tribal identifying way. Even if none of it speaks to you in any real spiritual way, and you even disagree with much of the rituals.
actually just to qualify my earlier comment, i know guys who want to go this route and they didnt brood about tis long – i know one who is an iyengar, and another who wanted to marry a punjabi hindu, and they turned to the parents. these are wonderful, personable people by the way, but they had trouble meeting the right person. why? a lot of desis are in the unfortunate position of not hving an extended x-generational network or legacy funds – so it’s either learn party tricks, spray and pray or put the nose to the grindstone and work away to build their legacies. their occasional experiences with dating desi/non-desi girls were not fortunate… and they said fuck it all, lose the drama and go the traditional route. at least anyone they meet would have marriage as the end goal in stead of on-off dating for a year or two and then parting way. i must say these couples are very happy. 😉 they arent exactly the post modern ideal couple of trying to save the world through recycling and hemp stationary – and are living the consumerist dream – but hey! it’s floating their boats – and i am cheer them on. (I was about to say ‘root’ but .aha! ve learn)
True, this does happen. My feelings on it are complicated, but generally I think pressuring people who don’t believe in something to partake of it cheapens the whole thing. I think the key is that desi society as a whole puts a lot of pressure on us to conform, perhaps moreso in the disapora, e.g. social rules, consumer trends, etc. My mother, for example, has given me many, ‘If you don’t become a doctor no Indian boy will marry you!’ talks.
nala
It’s a form of social conditioning that even in a liberal family like mine, can be felt. And it does cause some awkwardness and embarassment when you articulate your religious doubts, because often, your parents or grandparents or siblings feel that when you reject all that, you’re rejecting them. So you just go along with it all to make life easier.
Just to add to my last post, the weird thing is that my family isn’t really strongly religious at all. They’re casually religious. But they still feel that way in subtle awkward ways.
I know a ton of agnostic Catholics who go to church twice a year, gets their kids baptized/confirmed. Large amounts of secular atheist Jewish people go to temple for the high holy days as a cultural observance. A majority of the French still get their kids baptized in the Church despite being primarily agnostic. So how exactly are Indians different ?
Thank you 🙂
Rahul @248,
some nice music dedicated to your comment and all, to lighten up and reduce the temperature due to the serious discussions going on 🙂
I don’t know if they are different, but I do know that Indians have a high level of religiosity generally speaking, and that there are social pressures to conform and not question religion on many different levels from the family unit onwards. Generally speaking, of course.
I completely agree. It seems as if you are different in any sort of way, you’re automatically an outcast. All the “good” kids are going to become doctors/engineers/lawyers/business people, participate in Indian activities, etc or insert whatever stereotype. I know that my parents are probably worried about me getting married since I’m definitely not going to go into one of those careers and I’m just not the typical ABCD.
This (00:21) duster sporting woman seems really cool.
I do, however, have a friend whose family is Muslim, from Pakistani Punjab. Her family is highly prejudiced against turban-wearing Sikhs,
Funny Pakistani Punjabi men are very fond of sikh women in the United Kingdom in the short term.
Glad you banned this person (Lafuzada). Not only offensive (in a thick way) but uninformed. The women who wear the multiple rings around their necks are Burmese. Masai women wear layers of bead necklaces, but they don’t elongate the neck.
So here’s a flip, does the type of pug matter. Do girls prefer the Jutt pug or the papa pug? On the beard note, beard tied up or let it hang down? Ladies?
I noticed in college that bearded and turbaned guys (i wanst familiar with who those guys were at the time) were always really patient. is that part of the religion, or was that just a high quality sample of guys?
I disagree with banning lafuzada.
His comments do not warrant such a strong reaction. It is a high-handed “I’m in charge” reaction to ban such a post. He/she expressed an opinion, and people who read are smart enough and capable to respond if they disagree.
Banning, editing and deleting such posts turns people off your topics, and ultimately this website.
Wrong. Our readers are here precisely because we are constantly moderating the blog instead of allowing it to decay in to a free-for-all of insult and attacks. A fond farewell to those who disparage our choice to make this private blog a welcoming, productive, hate-and-stupidity-free space online. If they want a community that tolerates trolls, this ain’t it.
Lafuzada violated our comment policy, which resulted in being banned. I love how you insinuated stupidity and high-handedness in your rebuke of us, btw. Anyway. Off to be haughty before my coffee…suitablegirl, out.
You would have a point if her family was Sikh.
I don’t know about other girls, but I prefer guys who don’t set us back hundreds of years by using words like ‘jatt’ and ‘papa’
It’s jatt and bhapa to you 😉
nala said:
What’s wrong with the “Are you more American or more Indian” paradigm? I don’t use it to belittle someone by way of labelling, it’s really is a spectrum that I find in all the Indian Americans I come across. And there definitely isn’t a linear map where people are assigned places along it–however everyone is different and comes to me with varying experiences in life that add to/minimize their cultural experiences. Such as:
(1) Level of parental enforcement of culture/religion (2) Exposure to Indian peers/individuals
I guess what I’m trying to say is that I’ve dated guys I’ve completely hit it off with–but often their level of exposure to the Indian culture has dictated an incompatibility. Like the guy who I totally connected with over the phone only to be taken aback when I made a passing comment about “The AMAZING chicken sandwich I had at lunch!” and he told me he couldn’t be with me because it went against his religious dogma. OR…when I told a guy that almost 70% of my cousins have married non-Indian individuals, he told me that it made him uncomfortable that my family had “such loose standards”.
It goes without saying that both these guys weren’t going to be compatible with me…and they have every right to expect a woman who meets their own ideals. However, there’s a frustration for me in that I often wonder if I will ever meet someone who houses some of the more moderate (“balanced”) viewpoints I do..or at the very least, is able to accept them.
Brij sez
Thanks for the mid-morning shoulder shrugs Brij. I bet this hairy dude has no crossover problem with the ladies. Anna’s friend needs to take lessons from this vid.
I’d stop you short too, because of all the sandwich joints in all the places in the world, there is exactly one where I’ve had a chicken sandwich that I would describe as amazing, let alone AMAZING, and that required resorting to intense cajun magic, some seriously spiced-up mayo, and a kick-ass French bread. I don’t think that sandwich joint is anywhere in your geography.
Of course, I’ve been vegetarian for a few years now, so there might have been advances that I am unaware of in the field of cuisine marrying avian flesh to bakery.
I’m sorry I didn’t catch this thread till now! In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a Sikh woman with a pugh who is in a long-term relationship with an agnostic half Jew. Go figure….life happens. BUT I can tell you, to echo Ferza, how many Sikh brothers want to hook up with Sikh ladies in pughs? Unfortunately, not that many. Sometimes I wonder if the backlash I received from the community indirectly lead me to the very happy relationship I’m now. In some ways, I think it did. I was ready to get a little more serious and settle down, and no Sikhs guys were really pursuing me, unlike the umpteenth amount of non Sikhs that were. There just happened to be one that made me and my life better, and I’m with him now.
And ANNA, about your friend, I know some very nice ladies that may be interested. Pass me the deets!
And just to add, relationships are a two way street. Are there certain criteria that are holding a portion of these men back? There may be. And another interesting thread here, how many sardas get play from non-Sikh women? My brother gets quite a bit! Just a thought….
And one more thing – I promise – I do sympathize with Sikh men who can’t find women. Honestly. Especially as a sister and a friend to many Sikh men, it’s a very unfortunate, tragic situation. I just came back from Punjab, and the younger the Sikh face, the less likely you are to see a pugh. It’s downright depressing. And if I didn’t find my current partner, I’m pretty darned sure I’d be trying to get with a Sikh gent. But I do think it’s worth inspecting my second point. I know a lot of Sikh women have problems finding Sikh men too..there’s definitely a disconnect.
Each guy has a pug-style that suits him – but size-wise I prefer one that’s not like a swimcap and not one that’s like a cobra hood.
And my preference personally regarding beards is when a guy knows how to rock his open or tied up. Just let me play with it. 🙂 And don’t make it bulletproof and get mad at me when I want to touch it.
And re: turbans related to “religiosity” – Living in the US I’ve seen that you can’t assume anything. There are religious guys with turbans, religious guys without them, and guys who wear turbans who aren’t religious. Some of the men who wear turbans complaining about having no Sikh women interested in them aren’t concerned with meeting someone religious like them – they just want to feel attractive or wanted. No matter who you are, how religious you are or aren’t – we’re all looking for our counterpart (not necessarily a twin). Someone we can love, who loves us, whose world view and approach to life works with ours. Sometimes its easy and sometimes it’s not because what we’re looking for and who we are is so atypical.
I miss you, Sona!
Anna wrote:
Lafuzada violated our comment policy, which resulted in being banned. I love how you insinuated stupidity and high-handedness in your rebuke of us, btw. Anyway. Off to be haughty before my coffee…suitablegirl, out.
—
Where did Lafuzada display the type of hateful speech that you claim? Where do you get I “insinuated stupidity”? I said the exact opposite — people are smart and capable enough to respond to Lafuzada’s opinion. I happen to be in a relationship with a Punjabi, and the terms and opinions used in Lafuzada article are entirely in context of an on-going self-examination of ABD Sikhs that I’ve observed first hand. Before you condign a legitimate poster to be carted off in a tumbrel for termination, be rational.
I will take your advice in one aspect. I will stay away from your posts. I often disagree with your tone and cadence of interaction with others online.
VV Varaiya: Does your significant other call turbans diapers? Or say they look stupid? I’m an ABD Sikh and know many – what “self-examination” have you observed first-hand? And how many of them have used such disrespectful terms? There’s a way to disagree with a strain of thought and then there’s a way to be disrespectful and ignorant.
Rahul said:
LOL! It sounds like my sandwich paled the the one you speak of. Mine was courtesy of Quizno’s.
hands head in shame
here’s what happens when orthodox religion meets desire
i wasn’t trying to make a point – just an observation as to how ANNA’s friend situation has, in part, come to exist. i think my observation was relevant in the sense that even somebody who grew up here can easily take on their parents’, or societal, prejudices re certain aspects of sikhism – and as many people have pointed out, it is happening a great deal amongst sikhs, and not just non-sikhs. thus, a general societal view regarding turban-wearers can, and prob. has, affected how prospective ladies feel about ANNA’s friend.
Sonia, how much do you make me smile? 🙂
VV Vairaiya, lafuzada’s comments were highly offensive. While couched between “I am not trying to be offensive!” (and then doing exactly that — being disrespectful and offensive), his/her comments were not an invitation to discussion, they were an invitation to a flame war. There have been many individuals who have expressed similar opinions but in a much more thoughtful and conversation-provoking way. I’m personally glad that no one has interacted with his/her comments.
frankly, it makes me uncomfortable to hear people deem others’ standards ‘loose’ or immoral, unless they’re killing people, or some other level of heinous/hurtful action. even this thread has had a number of comments, vis-a-vis mates and compatibility, that have had a ‘healthy’ share of judgment-passing attached to how others lead their lives…
VV Varaiya: Does your significant other call turbans diapers? Or say they look stupid? I’m an ABD Sikh and know many – what “self-examination” have you observed first-hand? And how many of them have used such disrespectful terms? There’s a way to disagree with a strain of thought and then there’s a way to be disrespectful and ignorant.
—
I’ll continue in Anna’s thread, but I want make it clear I don’t support the banning.
Turban-wearing family members, have told me jokes with the punch line that translates to “cabbage head”. There’s an internal discussion amongst the family members whether to continue with the Turban tradition as they are smart enough to recognize how alien the turban appears to Americans in the mid-west/south. One cousin, who is clean-shaven, does refer to the tradition in pejorative terms. I have mixed feelings on the subject, but I don’t think the poster’s words are entirely out-of-line since I’ve heard ABD Sikhs use them in expressing their distaste for the tradition. Certainly the post did not come out as a profanity-laced invective that deserved a banning.
I’ll give you another example. My side of the family is vegetarian. My non-veg cousins regularly mock us as being “peasants” in our food choices. Big deal. Sometimes you have to hear the insults to parry them.
Precisely. Turbans look like diapers. Which is why Prada and Ralph Lauren sold them for 695 a pop starting this summer and H&M had them in a line. Exactly why the fashion elite perpetuate them. And I get asked to pose for fashion mags in Williamsburg. VV is really on the cusp of things.
PS – I love you ladies ;). Ferza, what are you to on Friday? Hollerrrrrrr…via gmail.
Anna, I do think VV has a point. I readily agree that lafuzada’s comments were offensive. But why not just delete the comment and post a warning? Why ban at the first instance? Are there no second chances in your world?
nala@256 : ” There’s questioning, and then there’s hostility, and that probably has something to do with the reaction you get “
My thought is being an atheist comes from within & an atheist should not go on stating negatives about seemingly obnoxious beliefs. I don’t see any harm in doing a few rituals for my parents wishes. I certainly wont change my ideology but can change how i behave sometimes.
Anna@275 : ” this private blog “
While Lafuzada maybe completely wrong in stating that, but we all know that it is his personal opinion. I’ll have to agree with VV Varaiya here, SM cannot be called as a forum representing south Asians while excluding the extreme opinions. Your call anyway since this is afterall a private blog.