Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally†make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping†to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience†or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
Complementing girls’ melons is definitely a no-no. ComplImenting them, on the other hand…
thats an excelent idea. time for me to reach spiritual enlightenment. hang out at the temple some more. if i dont meet grls, at least i will get puliogre.
For meeting girls who don’t drink, I don’t know about this being applicable to every place, but where I live, some women from a local church group meet every Friday night where many bars are, with placards proclaiming things like “And the sinner did drink, And he did burn in Hell, And so on”. It’s a reasonable bet that they don’t drink, but I’ve never approached them myself.
risible – lol. interestingly, i’ve been hit on at the canteen at the ganesh temple, and more recently, at a baby shower.
puli, sorry – i don’t recall. maybe next time you can recount that story to me 🙂
touche. i never did specify “non-psycho”
thats it…im going to temple more.
you can’t have it all, puli – stop being so demanding!
thats what my cousin said when I said “do you know of any h*t grls that have never partcipated in a p0rno flick?”
Ouch. Non-Freudian slip. But melonesque discussions are generally not good pick-up lines.
AK, out of curiosity, do you remember the exact pick-up line that was used? I can’t quite imagine what would be considered appropriate.
To get back on topic – ANNA, I really do feel for your friend. Personally, I wouldn’t shy away from dating a turban-wearing Sikh, but in general, I am hesitant to date people who are of moderate to high religiosity, only because my interactions with many such people have resulted in them judging me for my lack of belief in organized religion. Although, in the end, I am well aware that it is possible to find many people who believe deeply in their own religion without forcing that concept on their mate, or judging them for a lack thereof. I do, however, have a friend whose family is Muslim, from Pakistani Punjab. Her family is highly prejudiced against turban-wearing Sikhs, and she seems to share their beliefs, so it’s sad, but not entirely surprising, that young ladies in his age group are rejecting him for this.
Generally the actresses in a porn movie tend to be the ones that are demanding – “yes more give me more” etc. Depends on the specific market segment of course.
pingpong, no pick-up line as such, but at some point, he did mention how good i was with kids and that i would probably have extremely good-looking babies myself, which was followed by a wink. that’s when i took a time out from him (for the rest of the evening)…
People say bookstores are good places to pick up people and I must agree. If you see a woman reading a book, pick up that same book and place it next to you, she will be so excited that there is a man with the same interest as her.
Note: Dont try this if she is reading a romance novel with some Fabio looking chap on the cover.
HAHAH! “Hey baby, lets make babies”. thats brilliant!
I know I am jumping into this late, but I (also a white girl) prefer facial hair on men. I tend to only date men with beards. (I love long hair on men, too) And soft, full beards are best for the reason mentioned by Puliogre in da USA.
Joyatri, where in the US do you live? 😀
AK, ouch. I don’t think even I could have come up with an approach like that.
Time-outs…bloody Amreekan bullsheet, to quote my Mom. I prefer spanking. 😉
AK- thanks for the kind words about my friend (who is touched by many of the comments on this thread, btw). He once said that he identified with my challenges in settling down– like me he is Orthodox enough for it to be an issue with potentials who are not, like me he has been told by those who are similarly Orthodox that he is too “modern” (wtf?). Enne chayum.
Also, regarding this:
That sucks. My best relationships (which are almost always interreligious) have been with someone who was probably out playing golf or snoring while I was attemptin’ some repenting. With my last Sikh ex-, I had to drag him to Gurdwara and point out when it was an important day (Thank you, GW’s Sikh Student Assoc for keeping me apprised!). It’s so much more efficient to have one person be twice as religious, IMO. 😉 I’m more than happy to be Christian and Sikh, Christian and Hindu, Christian and touched by his noodly appendage etc etc.
ShallowThinker (and others who try to match taste in books, music and so on), have you tried FaceBook stalking?
Anna, let’s just say pingpong is associated with paddles.
is it feeding time or are you just pleased to meet me?
you just made my day!
stand in the sexuality section. and if that don’t work the self-help section is right next door.
I dont think i could date a very religious grl. I wouldnt understand them. it would be hard for me.
It’s sad when the teapot goes out of style. Though it’s not nearly as fun to say, “Scalded by His Vengeful Spatters”
But, in every section you must be accosted by a Quixtar representative.
How about standing in the home appliance section of Sears and pouncing on the target with “Oh, you prefer Whirlpool to Maytag too? OMG what are the chances? But what will we do with two of them?!”?
i’m sure he would have preferred that, as well 😉
enna chayum is right. i am in awe of people who are so devoted to a faith, such discipline is rare these days. and i have no problems with it until it – the religion or their beliefs – is forced upon me. I’ve found people assume that I am not a spiritual person and that I lack beliefs if I lack devotion to a particular religion – but I have my own set of beliefs, so in a way, I have my own religion, really – so what if nobody else recognizes it as such? It’s a struggle for many on both sides. I really wish your friend luck – it’s easy for me to say that he shouldn’t want anybody who is not willing to understand him and accept him totally and as he is, but the reality is that it just sucks that every woman he meets fails to fit those criteria.
Re your making up for lack of religiosity – my cousin’s husband does that, and she prefers it that way – she fails to see the need to go to the temple, or do pooja, when he does plenty for the both of them 🙂
I have mixed feelings about this. If I do not go to the Gurudwara (or temple or church) normally, and am not keen on going anyway, should I force myself to go just because today is an important day? I mean, does the calendar dictate my need to pray?
this is very weird but I’m finding it very funny. For those who don’t know who ragis are, here’s a pic . I swear. the kids these days… 🙂
Well, a few people have touched on it upthread, but if you want to raise children in a similarly “orthodox” (and really, I meant to type earlier on that I’m using that word for lack of a better term) fashion, it helps if both parents are devoted to that priority. I know what Puli was alluding to above, because I believe it, too. The level of connection/understanding between two people who are partners ideally would be much deeper than the bond which exists in other relationships.
If someone has spent almost four decades looking WAY different from everyone else, having to stand up for themselves because of it, and living a straight-edge life…well, a partner who has done similar would be such a comfort, wouldn’t it? Perhaps Sonia has a more nuanced understanding of what her husband has gone through, because she committed to the same ideals he did. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Uncle with cut hair/a clean-shaven face who has a little boy in a patka.
My friend has dated a few non-Sikh women (I think only one was willing to convert), but then other issues come in to play, like a lack of knowledge of the Punjabi language, which is something necessary to communicate with certain members of his family or an inability to grok what a lonely/visible life someone who is covered/turbaned leads. You can convert to a different faith, but such a decision doesn’t automatically endow you with memories of what it was like to be born and raised in this country, as a member of that faith. I understand exactly what he’s going through and I can see how others would pooh-pooh such perceived pickiness, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with hoping to create a future with someone like you. If I choose a spouse who doesn’t understand Malayalam, how will he know what I mean when I tell him “Po ada maire, chowti ninda ella odakyam” etc. How will he cope with shredded coconut in everything? 😉
I’m about to say something potentially flame-worthy, but I have this sneaking suspicious that if my friend were a Hindu boy, who wanted an equally religious wife, one who spoke _____, I don’t think he would be characterized as “picky” for wanting someone so similar.
I’m guessing Pennsylvania. I have an Amish friend who would totally empathize if only he believed in using the Internet. Or a computer.
Or electricity.
Speaking of pagdi wearers who are orthodox, imagine how difficult Monty Panesar has it.
One of the purposes of gurudwaras, temples, churches etc. is to build community. So, that does necessitate people visiting the g. during a festival and on specific dates – willingly of course. If one is following a spiritual path free of organized religion, then it doesn’t really matter and there’s no need for a calendar to dictate a need to pray.
Despite whatever difficulties he has suffered as a result, he still manages to look quite positive in his follow-through.
The jury will be out, though, on whether his rather weighty burden as England’s first spinner will eventually make him an irascible and insufferable old boor.
Seriously though, in order to be visually considered a proper SL Tamil, I only have to wear a chain and vow to never Nads my chest.
That would make a lot of sense if I thought of a gurudwara/temple/church as a place to meet people and mingle. The problem is, I don’t like to show my devotion in a place with too many people around. I like to pray in empty places, where no one is watching me.
Seems like he’s living in an Amish paradise.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen an Uncle with cut hair/a clean-shaven face who has a little boy in a patka.
In the Vancouver area, I have seen this several times. Most times it done to make the grandparents happy.
I had a patka until I was 4 to make my grandparents happy. My parents cut it off when just before I started preschool. Not the 1st time in my life that my parents forced me into something that my grandparents wanted, but that another story.
Most DBD Mallu lasses love facial hair on their men – especially those with a strong Mo – probably that bears some relation to Mojo 😉 Since I dont live in Kerala, my selection pool is rather limited.
Anecdotal evidence suggests that there is direct positive correlation between muff diving and a full beard. On second thoughts the Mallu lass may have meant kissing with other lips. I think hair or the lack of it on men is cultural conditioning.
Shalu – you are 20K miles away 🙁
Book stores and cultural/political events (e.g. poetry readings, plays, rallies, etc.). Seriously, it helps. I’m also of the ak variety — often at the bar as a non-drinker b/c my friends are drinkers.
No. 🙂 I think the nice thing about gurdwara is that it builds and sustains the sangat, but I’ve been in plenty of communities where this doesn’t happen (e.g. the chatty aunties in the Darbar Hall, the kids being thuggish in the entry, etc.). I think it just depends on how you feel and whether or not you find a sangat you enjoy being around. For children, though, I think it really helps to see that you’re not alone — there are other people who look like you. My brother (who wears the turban) always said that the gurdwara, for all its shortcomings, was the only place where he saw other boys who looked like him.
ANNA, I think you touched on a really key element — why should individuals whose faith is important to them be chee-chee’d for having strong feelings about how one’s children are raised? I’ve actually seen interfaith couples work well because of a shared sense of values. I know this sounds strange, but when I was an undergrad I often enjoyed interfaith work because of the support you find within communities of people of faith (and generally those who are interested in interfaith work are not going to try to convert you, either). But the question of how to raise your children is of course thorny. Will one parent feel rejected if a child chooses one faith over the other? Is it possible to have families where kids have “split faiths”? Some of the most successful interfaith/intercultural couples I’ve met, actually, have one relatively religious partner and one partner who is a bit less concerned with religion vis-a-vis kids (although they share similar values). This way kids are brought up with a strong ethical foundation and training in one faith, but the other parent doesn’t feel rejected/hurt by this process. It’s really rough and certainly unfair, especially when someone is told that adherence to their faith puts them in a box with all sorts of “traditional” (what does that mean anyway?) norms. The universe of reliable options gets smaller and smaller in the diaspora 🙁
It’s remarkable how many clean-shaven Sikhs in their 20s-40s have a similar story…they DID have patkas at some stage in their life, before they or their parents opted to get their hair cut. But I think if you look at clean-shaven (or let’s say “cut hair” instead since many are not shaving age yet) people younger than the 20s or so, many NEVER had a patka, their parents never even attempted it. Do people think part of the problem may be that Sikh moms in many cases don’t want to be bothered taking care of their sons’ patkas when they are young, and would rather have the convenience of not dealing with it at all? (I know, I know, why should the burden just be on the moms, why not the dads too, but come on…I think we all know how it really plays out in desi families).
right on Nala. cracks me up too for the same reason. though i dont think its exactly skank/ho… its a little less insulting than that i suppose but yes, i find it hilarious when I hear for example, ‘punjabi munda’ 😛
No. I think parents who cut their children’s hair do so because of fear of violence against their child or to help their child “blend in.” I rarely meet Sikh moms who “can’t be bothered” to take care of their kids’ hair unless they’re suffering from really severe depression. I do meet moms of other faith backgrounds who find it difficult to take care of the patka and thus refrain, but in those cases, if the father feels strongly about his kids’ faith, I’ve noticed that he’ll take up taking care of their hair for them.
And therein lies the reason most religious Sikh men want to marry religious Sikh women – instead of the ‘pickiness’ factor that’s been mentioned a few times above.
Speaking of hair, tamil brahmins should bring the kudumi back!
ak @ 210 said:
That’s cool of you, but the question of how to raise your kids would probably be a sticking point if it ever came to that.
What’s even sadder is that even some Sikh women have been conditioned to reject this “look” outright. (Conditioned, yes, by popular culture.)
Puli, don’t take this personally, but it’s not all about you. If you’re sincere about wanting to meet people, lose the pickup lines and try asking questions. Be interested. Stick to the topic at hand instead of using it as an excuse to talk about yourself. (I don’t mean to be harsh–I’m trying to be helpful.)
This site is kind of whack.. it does not represt main streem india or desi related events,
you got a bunch of sikh patronizing indian chrisitans and athiests editing this site.. from somewhere in manhattan.. this site should be renamed.
“pleae of the appeased.com “
Many religious people are devout practitioners because:
Category #4 is the smallest by a wide margin. Category #2 breaks or makes a religion… intelligent people must find something attractive to stay adherents.
I have the solution.
We all know that girls love musicians. Why don’t bearded Sikhs and religious Hindus get together and create a band called The Hairy Krishnas? Religious amity and chick magnetism in one fell swoop (of a guitar, or a sitar).
true, but it also has to do with degree. admittedly, i wasn’t thinking about kids since i’m personally on the fence on that one. but to further what camille said, i wouldn’t be averse to raising a child in my partner’s faith, with certain conditions or compromises. but given my lack of religiosity, some/many super-religious people prob. wouldn’t choose me as a partner. i guess what i’m saying is that my core beliefs and values are similar to many who follow a particular religion; i just shy away from the ritual and conformity aspects (not to say that all rligious people are conformists – i like to think most actually believe in what they practise; but a good deal of what i’ve seen personally of hinduism encourages conformity in a way that makes me uncomfortable).
lose them even if you just want to chat up the ladies and nothing more. a good pick-up line is almost always an oxymoron. given that, most men should not even bother with those ‘clever’ introductions.
Freethinkers, agnostics and atheists have a hard time amongst Indians. Have you ever been at a family or social gathering and told all the people there, some of whom don’t even practise the religion in anything other than a nominal way, that you don’t actually believe any of the religious stuff, that you don’t believe in God, or question the rituals? They look at you like you’re mad. Some of them will go into a sulk, or just tell you to shut up and don’t be awkward. They take it personally.