Turban + Beard = No <3?

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Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?

One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:

Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]

The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally” make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.

Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:

These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]

Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:

Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]

The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping” to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience” or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.

I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?

What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.

467 thoughts on “Turban + Beard = No <3?”

  1. Even among the ABDs??? You could be right…My observation has been that parents of ABDs tend to be more conservative than DBDs. i think it has more to do with the fact that ABD parents left India 20-30 years back when things were so much different back then, they still carry in their heads a conservative image of India and enforce it upon their kids. Im a 100% DBD accent et al and most likely will father kids with someone from a different race, my parents are cool with it, unlike my ABD friends who have a harder time making their parents understand…..interseting huh?

    It’s nice that your parents are so enlightened, but let’s not generalize to all of South Asia, shall we? My father’s family is very rural and conservative, and though cousins from this side have lived in the U.S. for a few years, they will all have arranged marriages (or have already had them) with a girl from the ‘right’ family.

  2. My father’s family is very rural and conservative, and though cousins from this side have lived in the U.S. for a few years, they will all have arranged marriages (or have already had them) with a girl from the ‘right’ family.

    I meant to add, their parents would have a problem with them fathering kids with a non-desi woman. Sorry, the majority of India just isn’t as enlightened yet.

  4. Puliogre, the dynamic hedging comment had me in splits 🙂 Your reasoning seems fair. I undesrtand where you are coming from. Unless, say, you drink and/or smoke, but you would not like your wife to do either because it sets a bad example. It happens,you know, I can easily see many guys taking such a stand. It never crosses their mind that the kids also learn from their fathers. And, anyway, I would not classify drinking beer and wine as “drinking”, but again that’s subjective.

    To quote from your own example, would you mind awfully if your wife went clubbing while you watched football?

    I like what Camille said in #143. It’s true, what is important to us changes considerably over time. If you selected a partner at age 22 based on what you were passionate about then, you will find at age 38 that you are a completely different person, and unless your partner has also changed in the same way that you have, you may have very little in common. Ditto a few more years down the line..

    My own experience is – throw away all the lists and just go with the fundamentals – is she a good human being (like Camille said, funny, compassionate, supportive, kind)? Can you trust her? The rest will take care of itself.

  5. wait a minute, aren’t you generalizing the rest of India because of your dad and cousins???

  6. To quote from your own example, would you mind awfully if your wife went clubbing while you watched football?

    I wouldnt care. she can do what she enjoys. although, i would probably want to go with her. i have never been clubbing with someone that loves me. it might be different. although, thats not an optimal set up. doing things together on weekends would be nice..

    Unless, say, you drink and/or smoke, but you would not like your wife to do either because it sets a bad example.

    yikes. no. i dont do anything i wouldnt want in a partner. when i was younger, i decided i wanted certain thinigs in a partner, which i think are fundamental. I decided to behave in a manner consistant with my desires out of fairness to my future spouse (i know. wierd to think about when your 18 and have raging hormones).

  7. Camille @ 143,

    I think there are two kinds of list – one is the general like funny, bright, looks smart, sexy, compassionate, lifestyle etc. and many more which are too vague for me to list. These are what I call as your personal tastes and one can get into a relationship based on limited information wrt to these. But then other kind of list is the hardcore ones- you better make up your mind one these otherwise going to be difficult post-marriage. In that sense marriage is so much more difficult because you have to understand yourself first.

  8. I think there are two kinds of list – one is the general like funny, bright, looks smart, sexy, compassionate, lifestyle etc. and many more which are too vague for me to list. These are what I call as your personal tastes and one can get into a relationship based on limited information wrt to these. But then other kind of list is the hardcore ones- you better make up your mind one these otherwise going to be difficult post-marriage. In that sense marriage is so much more difficult because you have to understand yourself first.

    what are the “hard-core” ones?

  9. I decided to behave in a manner consistant with my desires out of fairness to my future spouse

    That is funny. I mean, at 18 I was certainly not thinking about marriage. You must definitely be a very long-term planner 🙂

  10. That is funny. I mean, at 18 I was certainly not thinking about marriage. You must definitely be a very long-term planner 🙂

    yes. i think about how to fund a kids education even though im single. I even think about trust planning for when i keel over.

  11. yes. i think about how to fund a kids education even though im single. I even think about trust planning for when i keel over.

    Well then, if your job involves anything to do with dynamic hedging, I think you are in the wrong job. You should switch over to the buy-side and get into value investing 😛

  12. Well then, if your job involves anything to do with dynamic hedging, I think you are in the wrong job. You should switch over to the buy-side and get into value investing 😛

    I do the job where they pay me the highest. unfortnately, no one likes a poor and short guy.

  13. unfortnately, no one likes a poor and short guy.

    Yup, also add thin, stout, dark, balding, too hairy, long hair (for men), short hair (for women), bespectacled… the reasons to dislike are many.

  14. short hair (for women), bespectacled… the reasons to dislike are many.

    i think there are p0rn sites about grls in glasses….guys like h0t grls with any variation really….

  15. i think there are p0rn sites about grls in glasses….guys like h0t grls with any variation really….

    i think the list for grls is dont be too old, too fat, not born “pretty”. age is a first movers advantage. fat takes hard work to get rid of (can be really tough), not being born pretty is hard to fix. almost impossible.

    The list for guys is,

    dont be poor or short. poor can be fixed through hard work. short is hard to fix, almost impossible.

  17. I think there are two kinds of lists

    I think some of you think too much about your feelings. More lust, less lists! (Try saying that with a lisp–you know you want to. Go ahead, nobody’s listening.)

  20. any non sikh grls preffer the turban and beard look?

    What you’re missing is that attraction is about more than “a look.” Let me put it in even starker terms: I have a bisexual friend who says that she is not attracted to this or that person’s gender, she is attracted (or not) to the person. I think you’ll be surprised at what you’ll find attractive if you’ll just open up your mind.

    But if you’re looking for a spouse that you can wear on your arm like an accessory, then I guess this line of reasoning makes sense.

  21. But if you’re looking for a spouse that you can wear on your arm like an accessory, then I guess this line of reasoning makes sense.

    if turbaned guys are having a disroportionately hard time finding grls, ecause grls specify no turbans allowed, then its a relivant question…

  22. The list for guys is, dont be poor or short. poor can be fixed through hard work. short is hard to fix, almost impossible.

    I feel your pain. I have a short cousin, he had a hard time getting someone to marry him.

    What can you say, short guys don’t go well with high heels. We women are forced to choose between the two 😛

  23. I think it’s funny that a lot of people are judging Sikh turbaned men on their facial hair. Do you really think that’s all there is that makes a Sikh man different? When I was 18 I decided that I would only marry a sardar – my parents never steered me that way, but were happy with my decision. But I never thought, hmm, do I want to kiss a guy with hair on his face or a guy without a hairy face? It was for religious reasons which go far above and beyond someone’s facial hair. A man who is strong enough to believe so strongly in his religion – a man who is confident enough to live his life knowing that he stands out and will never be able to blend into the crowd – a man like that will be strong enough to face anything in the future and will be an amazing father and role model, and that works for me. And let’s just say, that beard can serve some interesting purposes – don’t knock it ’til you try it! (But Fuerza Dulce – don’t try it with a ragi! hehe).

    any abd grls preffer the turbaned guys?

    Born in California and would have no other type of man as my husband =)

  28. A little out of way, but where do the non-drinking , non-partying desi guys go to meet new girls. All the dating scene revolves around either the bars or discotheques.

  30. A little out of way, but where do the non-drinking , non-partying desi guys go to meet new girls. All the dating scene revolves around either the bars or discotheques.

    when you figure out. tell me…and dont tell me “chat up the random grl in the grocery store”. that doesnt count.

  31. I’m a turbaned and bearded guy and my girlfriend seems to dig the turban and beard. In fact I don’t wear my turban as often, choosing to go with a patka mostly because I’m too lazy to tie my turban, and she’s alway giving me crap about how I should wear my turban more etc etc.

    She’s an Amreekan gori kudi, if that matters.

  32. Puliogre in da USA said:

    whats the main reason people arent dating out? one of my friends has a brother. the brother dates really nice grls. some white. the parents jump down his throat. the other brother dates desi grls, who are really nasty. that is ok. i think its a messed up view. I dont really see a fundamental difference in ‘out’ or ‘in’ dating…

    Excellent question. And one I’ve been asking myself more and more lately.

    I guess it all comes down to finding someone who is similar to you–and for all intents and purposes individuals of the same cultural heritage will have a lot of unsaid things in common (religion, food, cultural sensitivities). To take it even further though..there’s a certain je ne sais quoi when it comes to the specific attraction I feel for an Indian male (I mean, look at you guys! Tanned, know my culture,, and those eyes!) =)

    And in my limited experience, the non-Indian (read: white) guys I’ve dated haven’t been very sensitive (read: interested) in my Indian heritage. They’ve accepted it, but there was never a keen interest in it or in it’s importance in my life–and that really effected my attraction for him. I mean, that’s a huge chunk of my life…for as “western” as I am…I’ll also very much into my Indian culture..and the person I’m going to be with has to embrace that.

    Of course in the end, it could just be that I haven’t met the right non-Indian who houses an appreciation for my culture and heritage. Ahh..dating…

  33. 180 · Puliogre in da USA when you figure out. tell me…and dont tell me “chat up the random grl in the grocery store”. that doesnt count

    Puli, I’ve said it before and will say it again–Italian restaurants in the Village, bar area. Po, Lupa, Babbo, etc.

  34. Puli, I’ve said it before and will say it again–Italian restaurants in the Village, bar area. Po, Lupa, Babbo, etc.

    yes. a bar is an excellent place to meet a grl that doesnt drink.

  36. Po, Lupa, Babbo, etc

    good restaurant list rob. once saw clinton in babbo…so must be a good pick-up place

  38. good restaurant list rob. once saw clinton in babbo…so must be a good pick-up place

    the only time i was at babbo was with a grlfriend. we are both simple people we decided the place is not for us and ended up eating at a diner after eating there. the diner was probably the most fun ive had out with a grl ever (oddly enough)

  39. yes. a bar is an excellent place to meet a grl that doesnt drink.

    you’d be surprised, actually. half the time when i go out these days, i am not with a drink in hand. if i’m at a bar, club, or lounge, it’s probably because i am there with friends – not for the draw of alcohol. puli, i didn;t read the full thread – are you looking for a girl that doesn’t drink?

  41. yes. a bar is an excellent place to meet a grl that doesnt drink.

    Personally, I just skulk around at AA meetings. The risk though is that those women are friends of Bill, and Manju knows what that means.

  42. Personally, I just skulk around at AA meetings.

    reminds me of the movie “dogma” where Jay and Silent Bob hang out in the parking lot of an abortion clinic to meet loose women.

  43. Personally, I just skulk around at AA meetings.

    sadly, i don’t think this is of much help to puli

    puli – i only asked b/c for some reason i (mistakenly) thought you yourself drink…

  45. reminds me of the movie “dogma” where Jay and Silent Bob hang out in the parking lot of an abortion clinic to meet loose women.

    awful….

  47. that should probably be the default assumption. most people do…

    i guess they do. but i thought you yourself had mentioned drinking. but obviously i was wrong

  48. and dont tell me “chat up the random grl in the grocery store”. that doesnt count.

    Actually a grocery store is quite the worst place to meet girls. Every potential date is on the defensive there, especially if you’re hanging out in the produce section to complement random girls on their melons.

  50. A little out of way, but where do the non-drinking , non-partying desi guys go to meet new girls. All the dating scene revolves around either the bars or discotheques.

    Desi girls? The puliogre stand at the Ganesha Temple – Queens, NYC. Some hotties hang out there. Failing that, gate crash some weddings in Edison, NJ or on the Island…Don’t crash baby showers, you will be found out and summarily ejected.