Turban + Beard = No <3?

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Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?

One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:

Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]

The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally” make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.

Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:

These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]

Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:

Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]

The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping” to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience” or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.

I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?

What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.

467 thoughts on “Turban + Beard = No <3?”

  1. I intend absolutely no disrespect with the following comment but something when louiecypher said:

    My gut feel is that your friend will have better luck if he starts to consider highly educated non-desi women.

    It struck a nerve.

    Not because I’m a desi woman who takes offense to someone saying that better luck would be found outside my ehtnic classification, but because I’ve been told the exact same thing by countless people myself (except with guys).

    I know for a fact that there are absolutely wonderful, smart, sexy, and hot Indian-American men out there, but in my 32 years I’ve gone through more heartbreak by exclusively dating from that group that I’d care to admit. I hate, absolutely hate to generalize a population subset, and I’m honestly not trying to do so now–but I’ve gotten to a point where I’ve strongly considered loosening my standards and dating outside my race because what I’ve been doing so far ain’t working.

    Because from what I’ve learned, non-Indian guys won’t reject me because I’m not vegetarian (three times I’ve been turned away for this), or because my extended family has married outside of the Indian diaspora “one too many times”, or simply because they misunderstood and thought ‘epidemiologist’ meant I was a medical doctor.

    Again, I can see so many of you wanting to turn this around on me for possibly being too picky…and I’ve faced that as well. To combat this I’ve dated guys from all walks of life, nerdy, outgoing, down to earth, you name it, and for whatever reason, I never seem “good enough”.

    It’s pretty demoralizing and after a while you can’t help but take it personally.

  3. Let me, for the sake of historical context, recount an incident from a hundred years back. Srinivasa Ramanujan (1887-1920), the distinguished mathematician, shaved off the tuft which he like other strictly orthodox people of the period he had before he left for Cambridge University in 1914. He chose to do so but still cried because the circumstances of the time virtually forced him to this decision. His biographer, the distinguished librarian S. Ranganathan, went to England for further study but kept his tuft (under a turban). He evoked two different reactions: workmen tended to comment on his tuft and turban in snickering ways, but when he was at the house of a mathematics Professor who had known Ramanujan, his wife, a cultivated lady, asked if he still had his tuft; Ranganathan silently removed his turban to reveal it; the lady was very moved, and felt that Ramanujan too should have been able to retain his tuft. Ramanujan adhered to his orthodox ways in all essential respects, although in those years even going abroad (crossing the black waters) was looked own upon by many. Ashish Nandy has argued in his book on Creativity among Indian Scientists that Ramanujan was endlessly innovative in his work all through his life precisely because he remained true to his background in his personal ways. We live in a different time and cannot directly extrapolate from the past to the present, but anyone, Sikh or not, living in a society whose dominant mores are different from his may wish to reflect on the complex question of shaping one’s identity in a way that does not compromise one’s essential self. A related question is the extent to which one can change one’s habits and ways without harming one’s fundamental being. There may be as many solutions as there are individuals.

  4. nala wrote:

    I think it’s the opposite, ‘lack of familiarity leads to overgeneralizations,’ i.e. when girls grow up in areas or communities where there aren’t many other desis around, and the only ones they know are their families or a few family friends (regardless of how tyrannical or uncool they really were, though I’ve seen that happen even among girls who grew up in heavily desi environments), they associate desi guys with all of that and never think of as possible romantic partners

    Bingo! I think this is exactly why so many ABCD girls I know have a hard time finding guys from India attractive. They just remind them so much of their uncles and other older men they grew up with whom they’ve never had a sexual inkling towards.

  5. Puli, I think the “no drinking” becomes less weird when you get out of college. Just my experience 🙂

    hmm…for me the only reason its any less wierd is that i dont live in a dorm. other than that, sometimes its still wierd.

  6. psingh #88 tries to concoct history by writing

    The reason Sikhs wear the turban/beard is because for hundreds of years they were persecuted by the ruling parties of India. Both of the major religions there were not comfortable with the idea of a new religon, so they basically said convert or be killed.

    That’s true of one of the religions – no browny points for guessing which one! As to the other major religion – they gave their first son to Sikhism.

    This is the same reason Sikhs sit down in the Gurudwara (so nobody is above anyone else).

    So do the people of the other major religion in their temples…

    Lastly, wearing a turban …allows the religon to keep its identity (when other religous leaders tried to dilute it or get rid of it).

    The only people who are trying to get rid of it are the young Sikhs of today, whose role models are clean shaven heroes like Sachin Tendulkar, Amitabh Bachchan, Hritik Roshan, ShahRukh Khan etc etc. Every culture identifies with the heroes of the present.

    If you want to save your traditions, I suggest you look for role models/heroes within your fold.

    M. Nam

  7. Shalu’s comment may be the answer to why Anna’s friend and the other broken-hearted Mundas are still single. Even the best of guys do act differently when it comes to dating or marrying. It’s funny, they never behave that way when they are with their female friends. But when it comes to marriage, their expectations from women, and their attitudes change completely. Very often, the guys themselves either do not realise the double standards, or believe that their wives should be different from their friends.

    We only know the guys’ side of the story. It’s quite possible that these guys are not being rejected for their turbans at all (or at least, not all the time).

  8. Again, I can see so many of you wanting to turn this around on me for possibly being too picky…and I’ve faced that as well. To combat this I’ve dated guys from all walks of life, nerdy, outgoing, down to earth, you name it, and for whatever reason, I never seem “good enough”.

    were all the desis you dated “from all walks of life’ of more-or-less the same socioeconomic status?

  9. Shalu–what you said in post 101 struck a nerve. I’m really sorry about the bad luck you’ve had in dating Indian men. I have this feeling that I’ll end up in the same exact situation in a few years. I know for a fact that I’m not Indian enough for the traditional families, but I’m not “ABCD” enough for the Indians-turned-Americans (i.e. I don’t drink or party etc). I’m somewhere in the middle, and it seems most people are at either one of the ends. But anyway, I guess what I mean to say is that I can relate. (btw, I’m Guju too!)

  10. p.s. I’m not planning to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or business women either.

  11. p.s. I’m not planning to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or business women either.

    you can still be saved if you become a pharmacist.

  12. I think only melbourne desi and one other person touched on this, but speaking as a white girl, I don’t know ANY women, white or brown or black, who like facial hair on men. Grody to the max, yo. Obviously Sikhs have many more levels of meaning with this when looking for Sikh partners, but speaking purely on the surface, my impression (obviously based on my experiences with friends of similar socio/econ/edu class) is that us girlies don’t like kissing hairy faces, period. Why isn’t that enough of an excuse for the heart (or the lips) to want what it wants? 🙂

    And Fuerza Dulce is right, it’s all about the confidence, anyway. I have dated the occasional goateed man despite my aversion, simply because they were so damn charming. 😉

  14. muralimannered said:

    were all the desis you dated “from all walks of life’ of more-or-less the same socioeconomic status?

    Pretty much middle/upper middle class—the predominant sector that Indians in America find themselves in. At least in the midwest.

  15. I think only melbourne desi and one other person touched on this, but speaking as a white girl, I don’t know ANY women, white or brown or black, who like facial hair on men. Grody to the max, yo. Obviously Sikhs have many more levels of meaning with this when looking for Sikh partners, but speaking purely on the surface, my impression (obviously based on my experiences with friends of similar socio/econ/edu class) is that us girlies don’t like kissing hairy faces, period. Why isn’t that enough of an excuse for the heart (or the lips) to want what it wants? 🙂

    Hey, I do… maybe not a full beard, but certainly someone who looks like he hasn’t shaved in a week or so. & I’m guessing certain types of facial hair are seen as trendy (though among younger people), hence guys doing this sort of thing (sorry, ANNA).

  16. Lone Brown Crayon said:

    I’m somewhere in the middle, and it seems most people are at either one of the ends.

    I do sometimes wonder if this is my problem as well. I grew up in Lexington, KY–a city that’s not quite as rural and backwards as it may sound. It’s 300,000 people strong and has a very strong Indian population (temple and all!), but at the same time, I was only one of three Indian kids in my school–so my exposure to both cultures (Indian and Non-Indian) was very balanced. I learned bharat natyam, performed in Fogana, and followed my parents religious doctrines…at the same time however, my best friends were non-Indian, I eat meat, I drink, and I hate to cook.

    However, again, I fear I’m coming across as if I’m male-bashing, and I’m absolutely not. Some of my closest, balanced Indian-American girlfriends have married stellar men..I just haven’t had similar results and it’s just been frustrating.

    That’s all.

  18. I don’t know ANY women, white or brown or black, who like facial hair on men.

    Are you willing to admit that your dis/likes are influenced by outside forces, by what’s “in style?”

  19. I don’t know ANY women, white or brown or black, who like facial hair on men.

    Speak for yerself sista! 😉

  20. or believe that their wives should be different from their friends.

    well, yes. i believe my wife should be differeent than my friends. im not trying to mate with my friends. i would want a wife that thinks at least a little like I do, and has similar standards of behavior. i dont really care about how my friends behave and think. as long as they treat me with respect.

  21. Ok my turn to be a marriage therapist –

    So there is this issue of compatibility based on whatever laundry list you may want to list. If you exclude some very predominantly desi issues like food, religion, language, rituals(as in the case of beard or visiting places of worship etc.) then the rest of the compatibilty issue is a matter of individual preferences based on your upbringing, tastes and dislikes etc. Now if some culture-pecific factors are important for you then independent of whether your are ABD/DBD, desi or non-desi the optimization problem is always how much of those factors you can live without and how much your partner can tolerate some culture-specific factors in you assuming those factors are absent in him/her.

    Considering this i am sure any wall-street person or a mathematician probably have the least problem in finding a spouse. Others god help you !

  22. C’mon let’s not feed into this whole ‘eastern vs. western values’ thing people, it’s not a sliding scale, it’s more like a conglomerate… like a salad bar. e.g. I’m religious, I don’t really drink, I love school, but in umm some ways I am definitely more ‘western.’ I don’t think it pushes me toward the right/eastern slide the scale, I think it’s just a different aspect of myself.

  23. Though I am younger and grew up in several very different but thoroughly desi-saturated communities, so that probably tempers my experiences somewhat.

  24. That’s an interesting comment. Could you elaborate on why you would not want your wife to be more like a close friend? Consider, your closest friends also have a lot in common with you, which is why they are so close. Your wife is only a very close friend whom you decide to spend your life with, right? Why should she be any different then?

    I think many Indian men are not trying to marry people who are like them. They are trying to marry people who will be liked by their parents and siblings. The two may not always match.

  26. you can still be saved if you become a pharmacist.

    Haha, I don’t think so–I hate chemistry! I am definitely more of an arts and humanities person!

    I grew up in a balanced Indian and non-Indian community as well (which is actually not too far from Lexington). I did Fogana too (but only because my parents made me and I quit as soon as they stopped forcing me). But I never really made any Indian friends. It seemed like I had nothing in common with them except the fact that we were Indian and they all really seemed judgemental too, which I think comes off as rude. All of my friends are white–I have one brown friend and she’s Pakistani. I swear I’m not Indian-bashing, but these are just the majority of my experiences. I just kind of don’t fit in anywhere, which is okay because I’d rather be my own person than fit a certain mold. But sometimes it still sucks and is frustrating…

  27. That’s an interesting comment. Could you elaborate on why you would not want your wife to be more like a close friend? Consider, your closest friends also have a lot in common with you, which is why they are so close. Your wife is only a very close friend whom you decide to spend your life with, right? Why should she be any different then? I think many Indian men are not trying to marry people who are like them. They are trying to marry people who will be liked by their parents and siblings. The two may not always match.

    my cose friends arent anything like me. they dont actually have very much in common with them other. They show me respect, and we get along. I dont really ask much more of them. I would like my wife to think more like me. its not for my parents/siblings. i would not be comfortable being married to the people who are my friends.

  28. I think it’s just a different aspect of myself

    nala @ 122, I agree with you completely…isn’t it initmidating; that inorder to find a partner you have to peel every aspect of yourself ? In that sense it is much better to date, love over some extended periods of time based on some limited information rather than get married which invariably means peeling more and more about yourself.

  29. That’s an interesting comment. Could you elaborate on why you would not want your wife to be more like a close friend?

    Puli can add, but from what I gathered, he didn’t mean that he doesn’t want his wife to not be his close friend. At least that’s not how I read it – simply that there is a distinction between female friends and wife. 🙂

  30. isn’t it initmidating; that inorder to find a partner you have to peel every aspect of yourself

    i look forward to sharing every aspect with myself over the rest of my lifespan…

  31. nala @ 122, I agree with you completely…isn’t it initmidating; that inorder to find a partner you have to peel every aspect of yourself ? In that sense it is much better to date, love over some extended periods of time based on some limited information rather than get married which invariably means peeling more and more about yourself.

    Well I do want to get married someday… I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here? Dating and love also involve ‘peeling’ information about yourself to other people.

  32. Puli can add, but from what I gathered, he didn’t mean that he doesn’t want his wife to not be his close friend. At least that’s not how I read it – simply that there is a distinction between female friends and wife. 🙂

    yes. wife is a friend plus a lot more. that “a lot more” bit isnt required just to be my friend.

  35. @131,

    Well I do want to get married someday… I’m not quite sure what you’re saying here? Dating and love also involve ‘peeling’ information about yourself to other people.

    The way “all this information” becomes the “be-all-end-all” issue which happens more if you are closer to marriage. Doesn’t happen if you date,love – in this case the nitty-gritty details are left to future.

  37. I would like my wife to think more like me.

    I completely agree with you on that you should have a lot in common with your wife, and at least on the important issues you should think alike. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not know what the important issues are. Would your wife have to vote the same way you do? Does she have to have the exact same interests as you, or is it good enough that there are some common interests?

    And then there is the question of vices. If you smoke, is it a problem that she also smokes? If you do not drink even wine, but she drinks beer and wine, is that a problem? I am just throwing out some examples.

    What happens if your wife starts off as somewhat similar to you, but her interests and opinions change over time?

  39. I knew this was going to turn into a rant for everyone, who cant find a brown person to love.

    Lets all just get together and bang it out. Enough of the Sepia mutiny coffee shop meet up’s. It’s time to take it up a notch.

    Just kidding………….Maybe

  40. I also think that it is important to have your spouse to be at least somewhat like you. I think the most important are the “moral” values or the like, such as drinking, smoking, pre-marital sex, family lifestyle, etc. I personally think that a relationship probably wouldn’t work out too well if there were differences in that latter types of areas.

  41. I think limiting beliefs are rampant on this thread..My FOB cousin believes ABD girls prefer american born desi men over the FOb counter parts as most/all FOBS come with (funny) Indian accents and don’t really ‘fit’ in. Oh lets take it a step further..he also thinks Punjabi girls would never date/marry a southie guy because of the general stereotypes. He’s come to these conclusions from poor responses on various matrimonial websites. a word of advice his way would defnitely help!

  43. Lekhni, I think it depends on what matters to you, but also on how you relate to someone else. I’m always a little surprised when I meet couples who have vastly different lifestyle habits or politics because those issues seem important to me. Maybe they’re important now, at this single stage in life, but maybe they would be less important over time. I think many of us have lists of what we think is important in a partner ahead of time, but these preconceptions change a LOT. Maybe the fundamentals are still there (e.g. wanting to be with someone who respects you, is supportive, or perhaps has desired personality traits, e.g., funny, compassionate, bright, kind), but the other issues become less important.

  44. I intend absolutely no disrespect with the following comment but something when louiecypher said: My gut feel is that your friend will have better luck if he starts to consider highly educated non-desi women. It struck a nerve.

    Looks like nerves were touched by my suggesting that this guy might do better if he also looks “out”. This is why I don’t participate in the “Dating Out” & “Sepia Destiny” related posts, there’s nothing to be gained. All I was suggesting is that he expand his pool…I would recommend the same for desi women

    no more on this pls.

  45. KM, I think there’s strong pressure to keep it “in the community,” but among the women I know (in the U.S.) they’re split about 50/50 between whether or not this is ACTUALLY a limiting factor.

    Also I have noticed the DBD-aversion among ABDs, and I think part of it stems from the (misconception) that DBDs are like our parents, and thus more conservative or more reserved or [insert stereotype here]. I meet plenty of ABDs who end up with DBDs, but it often takes growing out of their childhood hesitations. It’s kind of like when you are one of 2-3 desi kids in a community and everyone comments on how you must be a perfect match for the other desi kid, regardless of whether or not that person is attractive or compatible. I think nala’s explanation also applies to the DBD/ABD split.

  46. nala said:

    C’mon let’s not feed into this whole ‘eastern vs. western values’ thing people, it’s not a sliding scale, it’s more like a conglomerate… like a salad bar. e.g. I’m religious, I don’t really drink, I love school, but in umm some ways I am definitely more ‘western.’ I don’t think it pushes me toward the right/eastern slide the scale, I think it’s just a different aspect of myself.

    I’m not sure if this was directed towards me (and my comment about growing up in a balanced East/West culture), but I wasn’t trying to make it one. I was simply saying that I feel I have a unique balance (not a sliding scale..but a conglomerate) 😉 and it’s a challenge to find someone who has the same.

  47. I completely agree with you on that you should have a lot in common with your wife, and at least on the important issues you should think alike. Unfortunately, a lot of people do not know what the important issues are. Would your wife have to vote the same way you do? Does she have to have the exact same interests as you, or is it good enough that there are some common interests? And then there is the question of vices. If you smoke, is it a problem that she also smokes? If you do not drink even wine, but she drinks beer and wine, is that a problem? I am just throwing out some examples. What happens if your wife starts off as somewhat similar to you, but her interests and opinions change over time?

    lets break that down…

    Would your wife have to vote the same way you do?

    No. I don’t care about how my wife votes. As long as she respects my choices as well.

    Does she have to have the exact same interests as you, or is it good enough that there are some common interests?

    She just needs to have a few common interests. I am also willing to learn about her interests. The thing is, if the girl wants a husband that will take her clubbing every weekend, I will never be that guy. Its just not in my nature.

    If you smoke, is it a problem that she also smokes? If you do not drink even wine, but she drinks beer and wine, is that a problem?

    Vices are an issue for me. I want a grl that doesn’t drink and smoke. I don’t believe it sets a good example for the kids and family. I would not feel comfortable at home with a grl that drinks. Its just not the home environment im used to.

    What happens if your wife starts off as somewhat similar to you, but her interests and opinions change over time?

    People change. Its not like I can dynamically hedge. I would adjust to her changes the same as I would expect her to adjust to mine. If she took up drinking and smoking, that would cause me concern. Not only is it bad for my wifes health, it is also bad for the kids. I think its better if both parents lead kids by example.

  48. Louiecypher wrote:

    Looks like nerves were touched by my suggesting that this guy might do better if he also looks “out”. This is why I don’t participate in the “Dating Out” & “Sepia Destiny” related posts, there’s nothing to be gained. All I was suggesting is that he expand his pool…I would recommend the same for desi women

    But you hit a good nerve! =) Your suggestion about “dating out” and not limiting yourself to just the Desi diaspora is one my friends have been telling me to do for a while now. That is all.

  49. But you hit a good nerve! =) Your suggestion about “dating out” and not limiting yourself to just the Desi diaspora is one my friends have been telling me to do for a while now. That is all.

    whats the main reason people arent dating out? one of my friends has a brother. the brother dates really nice grls. some white. the parents jump down his throat. the other brother dates desi grls, who are really nasty. that is ok. i think its a messed up view. I dont really see a fundamental difference in ‘out’ or ‘in’ dating…

  50. “KM, I think there’s strong pressure to keep it “in the community,”

    Even among the ABDs??? You could be right…My observation has been that parents of ABDs tend to be more conservative than DBDs. i think it has more to do with the fact that ABD parents left India 20-30 years back when things were so much different back then, they still carry in their heads a conservative image of India and enforce it upon their kids. Im a 100% DBD accent et al and most likely will father kids with someone from a different race, my parents are cool with it, unlike my ABD friends who have a harder time making their parents understand…..interseting huh?