Last week, I wrote a post about ABC’s Notes From the Underbelly (which, btw, is on tonight at 9:30) and most of the comment thread was as fun and fluffy as I expected it to be. In light of that, I am half-willing to apologize for my bromidic attempt at virtually playing the right and left sides of the audience off each other, like it was an old skool rap concert or a pep rally, but most of you resisted my super-smack talk about Sunkrish vs Sendhil so all’s well that ends well…or is it?
One of the last comments on my post was left on Thursday, and it has bothered me since:
Punjabi Sikh kudis prefer clean-shaven men sans turban. They are quite vocal about that on all the Sikh dating and matrimonial sites. It has reached a crisis level in Canada and US with many Sikh men having to go to Desh to find a woman willing to take them with beard, turban and all. [link]
The handle this person chose (Broken Hearted Munda Looking for Kudi) made me extra sad. One of my closest friends is in this exact situation. He’s brilliant, hilarious, considerate and one of the sweetest people I have ever met—and he’s still single. And in his mid/late 30s. What would “normally†make a non-trivial number of girls gasp or pick out curtains— i.e. every attribute I listed in the last sentence PLUS two ivy degrees— seems to come second to the fact that he is a rather Orthodox Sikh. I don’t think the issue is his tee totaling/clean living; I think it’s his turban and beard.
Today, we received another pained comment, from a different person (Munda Still Looking for Kudi), on the same thread:
These women also cite 9/11 and subsequent discrimination against turbanned men as an excuse to avoid us like the plague. They say they don’t want to attract unneccessary attention and inconvenience and do not want to see their men and future children placed in possibly dangerous situations. Is this a cop out? [link]
Oh, 9/11. You changed everything. Now you consistently inspire nightmares like last week’s violence against an innocent Sikh cabdriver in Seattle, who was just trying to help an inebriated person get home, per the police’s request:
Trying to escape the attack, the 48-year-old victim stopped in a car pool lane Saturday night on Interstate 5, near Columbian Way, and scrambled out, state troopers said. His attacker had punched, choked and bitten him, calling him an “Iraqi terrorist,” according to police reports…
The suspect knocked off the victim’s turban and tore out clumps of his hair, according to reports. The beating continued as the victim fell onto the road. The victim briefly was hospitalized at Harborview Medical Center for injuries that included a concussion and bite marks on his head, according to police and acquaintances.
State troopers were called about 8 p.m. A Metro bus stopped next to the cab to block traffic after seeing the suspect attacking the victim in the road. Witnesses aboard the bus made dozens of calls to 911, Merrill said. [MSNBC]
The only comfort I take from that story is that the bus stopped while its riders frantically called 911…to report a crime which was inspired by those very numbers.I must say, I can’t see any of my Sikh female friends “copping†to the reason which Munda Still Looking for Kudi cites; while plenty of them will bashfully admit that they want a clean-shaven mate, it’s not because of “inconvenience†or fears over discrimination. My friends are fierce, and take exhortations to be brave seriously; don’t go looking for a fight or commit some injustice in front of them, they’ll get righteously medieval on your kundis. (See: SM kudi Camille). But these women are also human. The heart wants what it wants and that’s demoralizing for people like my friend, with the stellar professional and emotional resume.
I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who have gone to India for a bride and I know Sikh men who were born and raised here, who can’t conceive of such an undertaking. In three years of mutinying, I’ve heard from hundreds of you about how some of you don’t think your vesternized-selves could marry someone from the other side of the world– and yes, before a few of you angrily flame, we’ve also heard from those who are more than happy to find love thither. Why should wearing a turban or not shaving alter such feelings of apprehension regarding one of the most important decisions you’ll ever make?
What I want to know is, what do you think of these two comments and by extension, this issue? Do those of you who wear a turban plan on raising your sons to wear them? Are we heading to a future where little boys don’t run around in patkas, whether for their own safety or their future success with the kudis? I’m sure this already has been discussed on Sikh-centric sites, but I can sense that some of you want to raise your concerns here. Well, I heard you– and now I’d love to read what you have to say.
Well, there’s the general framing comment, that this isn’t necessarily about beards & turbans, but rather perhaps a particularized instantiation of some broader principle, be it the general difficulty of men (and, perhaps, women) who are “visibly religious” dating in a secularized society, or of the greater ease of female minorities assimilating as compared to male. I’m not claiming it is either of those, but it’s cert. possible.
Interesting…I wonder if Muslim girls who cover get similar rxns from Muslim boys?
This is the strangest thing ever! I was raised in the US and my dad keeps a turban. All of us women, though, cut our hair (my mom, sister, me). While I didn’t marry a Sikh man (I never really met any, for some reason, and my parents weren’t interested in matchmaking), I wouldn’t have ruled it out. And I certainly wouldn’t have ruled out a pukka sadarji. In fact, I have more respect for them because it’s really difficult to stand out. Clean living/teetotaling would bother me, since I like a drink every now and then, but a turban and beard? Nah!
It would be interesting to know if young Sikh men in India faced similar discrimination from within after the 1984 anti-Sikh riots and its aftermath or if this phenomenon is endemic to Western nations only.
I tend to agree with rob. I’d be interested to know if Broken Hearted Munda (or your friend) would be willing to date a girl who’d dated in the typical American/Canadian style before (i.e. a few mid to long term relationships that had sexual activity); maybe he’s being too picky.
Also, and this has bothered me since grade school, why Anna are you not dating your super-awesome, handsome close friend? Do you pull that “I don’t want to ruin our friendship” crap on him? Sorry, but I’ve been there before. Maybe you did date and it just didn’t work out; maybe when one of you is single the other is always in a relationship. Been there too.
I can tell you that in my friend’s case (I don’t know BHM), a girl’s so-called past is not an issue, so yes he would be willing to date if not marry that girl. I don’t think it’s picky for him to want a girl who is Sikh, who likes his turban and beard. 🙂
I wouldn’t have blogged about this if I just thought it was an issue of Sikh mundas being picky!
I would need to see a baseline comparison with clean shaven Sikh men to know to what extent it’s the beard/turban. Does anyone know if any of the pan-Indian or Sikh specific online dating/matrimony sites have “clean shaven/non-Turbaned” as a “check box” search option ? If so someone enterprising can look at a 100 ” Sikh women looking for Men” profiles, see what the stats are and get back to us
My gut feel is that your friend will have better luck if he starts to consider highly educated non-desi women.
It’s been eons (2002!), but when I was on browndating dot com, there was a check box for “turbaned”. Long before that, when I used to read the India Vest matrimonials for gits and shiggles, I noticed that the ads (for both genders) were super specific about whether the desired match should be clean-shaven, etc.
Its all about being in the right situation.
I know turbaned Sikh guys, who are extremely educated, funny, volunteer alot, and yet cant find a woman who will share his faith. I also know turbaned Sikh guys, who marry those fancy lawyers from Harvard and even marry women, who are not punjabi or Sikh or even Indian.
Finding someone, who is on the same spiritual level as yourself is very difficult if you are a Sikh man because their are not alot of Sikhs in the 1st place and of that population how many are religous?
If you a man with no faith and low morals,like myself then it is easier to find a woman. That woman is usually a huge bitch, however.
Interesting…I wonder if Muslim girls who cover get similar rxns from Muslim boys?
Yes. But its not exactly similar because the Muslim woman would take off her hijab inside the house. So its much worse for Sikh men than Muslim women when it comes to marriage and dating. I know some men who are unhappy with their wives because they wear hijab and especially when they face discrimination/harassment. Most Arab/Persian woman dont exactly look stereotypically ‘Muslim’ when they take their hijab off so the hijab attracts a lot of unwanted attention.
what is <3?
I meant, what is “(3” (the less than 3 sign in the title)?
Do the Sikh men take off their turbans when they are at home?
Yes, usually. Which sucks because I always have to answer the door to get our pizza delivery.
Why?? They’ll just think your cute other half is Kim Thayil. 😀
— Do the Sikh men take off their turbans when they are at home? Yeah… but the beard kind of sticks…
Kurma, the “less than 3” is a way to draw a sideways heart: the title is Turban + Beard = No Love. 🙂
I think that would be hard, because sometimes the beard would hide a great chin and jaw, and the pugh would be hiding a great head of hair, but also at other times possibly not. Sonia, I truly don’t know, so please to forgive if this is dumb or offensive, but how come he can’t get the pizza with hair and beard?
Well, the turban is a religious head covering – you don’t go out in public without your head covered. The only time my husband isn’t wearing a turban or a bandana is when he’s at home. So in order to get the door he would have to cover his head. He would basically feel naked in front of a stranger with his hair uncovered, as would most Sikh men. And he’s lazy, and I have no excuse, so I get the pizza =)
Why?? They’ll just think your cute other half is Kim Thayil. 😀
Alot of my friends used to ask me if Kim Thayil was a sikh. But it turns out he is south indian from Kerala.
Still to this day Mr.Thayil is the greatest desi rock star ever to come out of America.
broken hearted jat macaca looking for shaven kudis too!
if thayil cut his hair he’d become engelbert humperdinck
whats a kudi? is that like kundi, like looking for *ss?
kudi = penne, not kundi 🙂
it’s the punjabi word for girl, just like “munda” is boy. if i’m wrong, don’t worry, i’ll be corrected within minutes. 😉
Kudi is a girl yo! as for kundi.. kannadiga’s know that one 😉
So do Mallus and people who speak Marathi, if I’m not mistaken. Vastly different meanings, though. 😉
ahem…{puli clear throat} “ME-ME-ME-ME-ME!” (puli pulls out pitchfork). puli tightens diaphram and prepares to project his best operatic voice…
“Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi! Kundi!”
sorry. i just had to get that out of my system.
Fantastic timing– I’m listening to Rene Fleming, right now!
Kundi in Hindi has a different meaning too.
My friend is a TWS living in the US, and he had a tough time finding a Sikh kudi who would be OK with his traditional looks. Good for him, he finally found one (after a looong time) and good for her too, because he’s an awesome person.
if thayil cut his hair he’d become engelbert humperdinck
Mr.Thayil hairline was start to thin alittle on top from the pictures of I saw of him
Anna you are right about the meaning of kudi and munda. The funny thing is that your punjabi is better then mine.
Very interesting topic. Please note that I do not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings. I am all for standing out in the crowd but not on the basis of religion. What has hair anything to do with religion? I am Hindu, so if I don’t put bindi on my forehead, do I become muslim? The original reason for Sikhs keeping turban is totally outdated in today’s world. Won’t you agree? Are you telling me that if a Sikh man shaves off his hair then he will no more be a Sikh??? I don’t think Sikh religion is so shallow. I have lot of Punjabi friends and have been to Langar couple of times. I have lot of respect for Sikh religion. Sikh religion is not just turban and beard.
gynophobic sikh men get kudi shots
looks more like pacman’s mouth eating a pair of breasts…which would not make an incomprehensible title
as an aside… the word ‘munda’ cracks me up, b/c in telugu it’s a way to insult a girl, along the lines ‘skank/ho.’
looks more like it’s coming down on top of a kundi, actually.
Chetna, it’s nice of you to state up front that it wasn’t your intent to be hurtful…but if I couldn’t see your commenting history (i.e. if I were someone who reads/lurks instead of an admin), I’d assume you were a troll. So much wrong with your comment, so little time.
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I am all ears. Please tell me what you find wrong with my comment.
I am hurt that you called me a troll. What was so wrong with my comment!!
As far as I know, the Marathi meaning for “kundi” is “flower-pot”, unlike the meaning in Mallu/Tam/Kannada etc. This has led to regrettable incidents when one of my Maharashtrian friends has somehow found out what it means in Tam etc, and goes out of his way to make statements like “To ensure that the plant grows well, we must sprinkle water on its kundi and place it in the sun” and so on, in discussions that are otherwise tolerably sane.
Oh, and I remember the comment from the old discussion, and from personal experience, beardedness does seem to be a hindrance. People in general seem to be OK with “pingpong”, but nobody seems to like “hairy pingpong”. (Can’t speak for turbanitude or longhairity).
Does anyone perceive a difference in datableness between being an observant Sikh, having long hair, having a turban, and being bearded? I can imagine some (or maybe even all) of those terms being independent of each other, and I’d like to know how much of BHMLfK’s comment was due to each factor.
Please re-read my comment; I did not call you a troll. I said that if I wasn’t privy to other information which proved that you have a history of leaving sincere comments, I would assume that you were a troll:
Calling a turban outdated and then asking if we agree is disrespectful, IMO. Though I’m sure it was not your intention, stating that you have “a lot of Punjabi friends”: is reminiscent of racists who claim not to be, because they have “black friends”. I’m not accusing you of being a troll– for the last time, I’m telling you that if people react to you as if you were, there is a reason for that. In fact, I proactively intervened on your behalf so you wouldn’t be blind-sided, since I could see what others couldn’t. I can’t be more clear than this.
I think I know what you mean. There’s a Tamirzhl word “mundai” which is used in roughly the same meaning. “Kudi” in Tam can mean either to drink or to live, which consequently makes the word “kudimagan” mean either “inhabitant” or “drunkard”. “Kudi” can also be mispronounced slightly to give a profane term for female genitalia. This is a source of sub-sophomoric humor when watching Punjabi music videos, and the male voice’s lyrics say something like “I’m so hot that all the kudis come to me”, at which point the female background dancers happen to do a pelvic thrust each.
Sorry. Read quickly and reacted very quickly.
I now understand what you are trying to say. Thanks. I didn’t think my comment would come out in that way.
Happens to all of us. 🙂 Imperfect medium and all.
The turban=teetotaler equation is totally unfair, if desi-club parties on campus, or theka’s and sharaab-khanas in panjab are any judge. In fact, it seems to me that the longer the beard, the better they hold their liquor!
I think I’ve only met one Sikh man with a longer beard than my husband’s (which is gorgeous, by the way), and my husband has never touched alcohol. Disproved.
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Hmm, looks like we simply have different perspectives on this, Manju.
Oh, I wish I could read this site everyday, theres always such interesting things on it!
Although I see how it could be perceived as such I don’t think the 9/11 angle is a complete cop-out. My uncle was adamant about not cutting the hair of my little boy cousins but they were in India when 9/11 happened and when they came back their hair was cut because everyone was so afraid for their safety. And especially within certain parts of the Sikh community I do think there is a still a lot of deeply embedded fear.
And when it comes to “Kudis” a lot of times their preferences are centered around their concerns for status. We grow up as men with turbans and beards being unclejis and people who definitely don’t fit into our boy band influenced ideals of beauty and appeal. As I’ve grown older I’ve met really great guys who have everything going for them but I can’t imagine myself with them because of their turban and beard, I’ve been so completely conditioned that I can’t see them in a sexual light. And although they might not see the harm in what they’re doing, our Sikh friends would be quick to pass judgment or even pity you for ‘settling’, and you have to admit that our friends influence us more than we can imagine.
I will point out though that just from my experience, men who are in their twenties and have chosen to continue with the Sikh tradition of not cutting your hair are usually more quick to adhere to other traditions as well. So that many of them will not pursue romantic relationships unless they are older and it has a clear direction towards marriage. And dragging out the experience factor again, when someone is reaching 30 and just begins to look for a romantic mate, the chances aren’t always so promising and for some of them they might have to turn to more traditional means.
The decline of the turban, and the seriousness of the situation, was actually featured in an Outlook Magazine article this past summer.
I have a friend in Patiala who is the only one in his circle to keep a full beard. One day all of his friends started making fun of him for having cut his beard, and lost his sikhi (which, by that standard, they had all lost long ago). I couldn’t figure out why they were saying this, until someone explained that he had trimmed a few of the hairs in his mustache that were obstructing his ability to eat food. 🙂
I did have female friends at the Panjab U. that told me that they found a beard and turban “sexy.” Most of the women there were from the pind, though.
Interesting thread Anna….
And surprisingly,the degree of tolerance and understanding commentators and moderators here seem to exhibit far exceeds that seen(or not seen)when similar issues have been broached in some other desi(as in pucca desi….as in un-hyphenated desis)blogs.
Hopefuly I can come up with some coherent and meaningful contribution to the discussion (as someone who has spent considerable time in both the avataars you really should forgive me for thinking that I could!)……
Ciao