Who is SKINNY? [Updated]

Yes or No.JPG

I wrote a post this weekend which questioned certain commenters’ assertions regarding how “hot Desi girls seem to end up with White guys”. We discussed that misconception as well as…well, a few dozen other subjects, but that’s natural over the course of 1,349 comments. One sub-thread which I followed avidly involved I-bankers and their (for some) elusive prey: the skinny, hyper-maintained, hot brown girl with stick-straight hair.

Some of you compassionately responded to your banking brethren, when they plaintively admitted that they weren’t sure where to locate their loins’ fondest desire; instructions, right down to locations, days of the week and yes, auspicious times of day (yo, are we brown or are we BROWN) were offered and happily accepted. Much like the original exchange which inspired my post on interracial dating, which is where this comedy of heir-ers was going down, what I noticed was that these weren’t one-off sentiments. To me, that made them difficult to dismiss.

The one word which kept surfacing, repeatedly, insistently, was skinny.

Predictably, evolved mutineers were outraged and immediately broadcasted it; even more predictable than that, the obligatory, “I can’t help it, it’s just what ruins my boxers”- volley occurred, so that there was essentially a stalemate. Around skinny. While all of them pondered if it was okay to come out and say that “skinny” was a requirement, and whether such a requiring was nothing to be ashamed of, I was transfixed by something else which was related, but not discussed.

What did skinny mean in this context?

To some, Kate Moss defines skinny. To others, the woman who is pictured on our left qualifies.

I like to know exactly what I’m offended by, before I gift someone with a new orifice, so I couldn’t get my outrage-on– not until this question was answered. Yes, yes…we should all eschew superficial everything and it’s terrible that we’re judging female books by their covers, but it’s also a gross reality. And I wanted to know how realistic these I(yer) bankers were.

There was another snag—we were discussing Manhattan.

It’s a rarified world and understandably, the benchmarks are different. Everything is relative (and apparently, if you are an Iyengar reading SM, YOU are all relatives…oy, how I wish that I could actually link to relevant comments from MY OWN POST, which would make my attempts at wit successful vs. inscrutable).

In most cities, D.C. included, my 450 sq ft studio is tiny. In Manhattan, my friend is thrilled to have that much space for her ONE-BEDROOM. In most cities, making six figures is awesome. In Manhattan, it barely affords the afore-mentioned shoe-box, rent-wise and that’s if you limit your methods for self-intoxicating to PBR (note: life is too short for PBR, my darlinks). Anyway, if everything is tougher, better, more competitive, more expensive and more EVERYTHING in Manhattan, then…do brown guys expect brown girls to be skinnier, too? And does skinny mean fit? Or just skinny?

My guy friends (the unManhattanites, if you will…I’m not counting the Murray Hill dwellers et al for the purposes of this fluffy post) would line up giddily for a shot at the gorgeous girl above. Would our I(yengar) bankers? I think we have a bit of a vested interest in all this; the majority of the Desi vomen whom I am privileged to know are curvaceous, if they’re out of their teens. For most men, that’s a good thing. My male buddies don’t like straight lines—on the roads they’re about to break laws on or…uh…you know.

Curves are good. Right? Left? Those are definitely curves, on the left.

So, as I said memorably (and almost 1,700 comments ago!), out with it then. Let’s have the truth. What do you want? Is the woman I’ve wrapped this post around zaftig or is she just right? Err, left? You know what I mean. And this ain’t no heteronormative joint. I’ll be the first to tell you that she could inspire me to discover a love that dare not speak its naam. ;) What about you?

::

isin’t that a picture of you ANNA?? or may be your sister?

While it easily could be, because my sister and I both have huge, bubble-like Malayalee kundis which resemble two coconuts attached to our lower back, and yes, apparently we also both have “thunder-thighs” like our helpful model above, no, it’s neither me nor my little sister.

I look exactly like that in jeans.

I am dismayed that some of you think that her thighs are ugly, but to each their own; we are attracted to what we are attracted to and that’s that. I bring this up not to call you out (S, you know you and labbie singh are my peeps), but to speak to the women who are lurking, who have body image issues. Because believe me, they are here and they are reading this. They inspired this.

I have no problems in NYC or SF or DC…guess my hatred-since-infancy of LA has protected me from an eating disorder, since I am a size 8, not a size 4, and that is too big for La-La land.

I like my body. I like it so much, I don’t give a shit about telling you the truth– I am 5’6″ and I weigh a whopping 148 lbs. I’ve gained weight, since hurting my leg, because I no longer get to walk the three miles home from work. To go from walking more than 20 miles a week to not being mobile at all…well, it takes a toll. I’ve gained eight pounds, which I can’t be fucked to cry over, because I’m more upset over losing lean mass and the ability to walk comfortably, without pain or this huge, heavy, unwieldy cast on my leg.

To the young woman whose email to me on Facebook inspired this entire post:

Please stop calling yourself “fat” and “ugly”. You look exactly like this picture, I know, because I went through your albums and found one taken at a similar angle. You don’t have luck with desi guys in NYC because of timing, circumstance or that nakshatram with the tree or whatever– NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE OBESE. When you kept reading about how guys like Puli et al want “skinny” desi girls, in the mega-thread, they were talking about you, my darling girl.

I proved this. I proved my point.

The majority of men on this thread think that the woman pictured above isn’t just beautiful but hot, gorgeous, attractive, ideal.

Please eat your lunch today. And your dinner. And work-out, but do so because your heart and lungs and future grandchildren deserve to be taken care of– you’re too precious to starve, especially at your own hands.

To quote you, “Shocker. Indian girls have eating disorders, too.”

Well, they shouldn’t have to– no human should. Eat. Be healthy. Fall in love with yourself. Life is too short for bullshit, and that goes for all of you.

Thunder thighed-Anna, over and out.

785 thoughts on “Who is SKINNY? [Updated]

  1. Fat women have a chance/choice but the plight of short men is worse. I was having a conversation with 6 guys on this post over lunch, and none of them feel that the lady in the pic is fat. If people start associating the word fat with such women, and if skinny is desirous, then heaven help us guys who seek slim women!

    Only after following the last few posts I realised that guys like skinny women, for me at least skinny women are eeew! But it also depends on the build of the guy. May be skinny guys like skinny girls!

  2. Bess – hmmm, details? ‘Youth is wasted on the young’ just about sums it up…

    That sounds old and crotchety, doesn’t it?

  3. Oh, totally off-topic question (and no pressure ANNA, I know you’re not feeling well / are injured). Will we be resurrecting the summer reading club?

  4. This goes against every bone in my tall body, every sinew in my muscular frame, and raises every hair in my well-coiffed head… but I’m pretty sure Manju was being facetious in his remark. ‘Cuz that’s how he rolls.

    Outrageous accusation, Rahul. I am not skinny.

  5. Will we be resurrecting the summer reading club?

    You just gave me an idea– email me, wouldya? :)

  6. That sounds old and crotchety, doesn’t it?

    Not at all and really no details are necessary. I think you rock for just bringing it up to the fore. As for crotchety: see HMF.

  7. HMF wrote:

    That’s not what she was saying, she was saying a drink is indicative of “offering to provide” or “making her feel special”. To which I respond with two main points: 1. Any offer to provide too early in the meeting/process is a sign of supplication (‘I’m not worth it so I have to pay to show you I am’)

    I’m sorry you feel this way, but the truth is–it’s not received that way by the woman. I feel like you’ve got this preconceived notion about how women think that’s just plain wrong. If I’m approached by a guy I’m not particularly attracted to, I’ll accept the drink and talk to him nicely before politely excusing myself. However, if I’m approached by someone I’m totally digging, the drink is accepted and I’ll find a way to stick around and then some. It all depends on the guy.

    There is no such thing as “providing too early”…offering to buy a woman a drink is a message saying, “I think you’re worth my time, do you feel similarly?” And it’s not about buying a drink–simply talking to a woman is letting her know you find her special.

    You’re making it a matter of paying the girl to pay attention–but it’s nothing of the kind. Most women in this day and age can more than provide for themselves monetarily and aren’t looking for a sugar daddy to feed their pockets (at least me and my friends in Atlanta aren’t). We’re looking for a guy that sticks out from the crowd and makes us feel special, and the only way to do that in this day and age is to buy something for us.

    2. from a practical point, useless, as it categorizes you with the 1439 other guys that just tried to pay for her drink.

    I can understand it making you feel that doesn’t help you stand out from the crowd (since every other guy is buying drinks), in which case I urge you to do something different…like just approaching a girl and talking to her. Don’t buy her a drink, just compliment her outfit/her smile and start talking.

    Again, it’s about making her feel special and it doesn’t have to involve money. However, in the cases where you’re in situations where money is an issue (paying for dinner), the chivalrous thing to do is to offer to pay for her share as well as yours. It’s a small price to pay to impress the the shoes off the little lady.

    As for men taking on the burden themselves, they do so because of misguided attitudes like Shalu’s. And I agree, they shouldn’t, which is why I don’t.

    I think you’ve completely misunderstood my point. It’s not about money impressing women–it’s about taking that extra step to make a women feel special, however the means.

  8. Hmm, I was going to stop on the way home tonight and buy a 10 piece pack of this sumptuous frozen Rasmalai from a desi grocery store. Thank you mutineers for killing my appetite and making me wonder about whether I should skip the Rasmalai plans for tonight :(

  9. OK, one more comment, though I haven’t read most of the earlier comments. I see the conversation has drifted away from body and shape to food and healthy eating – and that’s great, but someone also needs to say that larger hips are correlated with wider possible birth canals, which are related to how big the baby’s head at birth can be, which is related to how smart it can become. All the correlations are a little loose, but the trend is there, and so males who develop unreasonable tastes vis-a-vis hip sizes will eventually have babies with smaller heads, on average, than those who are more reasonable. So women who think they have larger ‘kundis’ should feel good about eventually having smarter babies – smarter human beings. And whoever talked about the ‘girth’ of the ‘murga’ up above, totally knew something about correlations of this kind.

    I’m spending the rest of the afternoon at the gym, and then go to a museum, and so will be offline for a while. Enjoy!

  10. OK, one more comment, though I haven’t read many of the earlier comments. I see the conversation has drifted away from body and shape to food and healthy eating – and that’s great, but someone also needs to say that larger hips are correlated with wider possible birth canals, which are related to how big the baby’s head at birth can be, which is related to how smart it can become. All the correlations are a little loose, but the trend is there, and so males who develop unreasonable tastes vis-a-vis hip sizes will eventually have babies with smaller heads, on average, than those who are more reasonable. So women who think they have larger ‘kundis’ should feel good about eventually having smarter babies – smarter human beings. And whoever talked about the ‘girth’ of the ‘murga’ up above, totally knew something about correlations of this kind.

    I’m spending the rest of the afternoon at the gym, and then go to a museum, and so will be offline for a while. Enjoy!

  11. someone also needs to say that larger hips are correlated with wider possible birth canals, which are related to how big the baby’s head at birth can be, which is related to how smart it can become. All the correlations are a little loose, but the trend is there, and so males who develop unreasonable tastes vis-a-vis hip sizes will eventually have babies with smaller heads, on average, than those who are more reasonable. So women who think they have larger ‘kundis’ should feel good about eventually having smarter babies – smarter human beings

    YES! w00t handlebars!

  12. Subject: desis Treatment: drink or no drink

    What kind of min. #’s do I need for each group for my results to have some interest—sheeesh, this could take a while….

    I’ll “take one for the team” and throw in an equal number of non-desis to get the numbers up ad-or act as a control. ;-)

  13. At the risk of outing myself as ‘white as white gets’, can someone explain what’s meant when Anna says Iyengar? Every other comment seems to refer to it and even after a well-spent afternoon on the internets, I don’t really understand how it’s being used here. Thanks!

  14. OK, I’d rather my daughters/son grow up with some, any level of insecurity, than the utter sophistication/confidence the Divya character is exuding. (No offense to you, Divya.) Because personally, I think the former is something i would actually be able to understand/handle/help with, if help is needed; while the latter would mean, I won’t recognize my own progeny.

  15. I think you’ve completely misunderstood my point. It’s not about money impressing women–it’s about taking that extra step to make a women feel special, however the means.

    and what of this issue? and this : We’re looking for a guy that sticks out from the crowd and makes us feel special, and the only way to do that in this day and age is to buy something for us seems contrary to your point. it just seems very slanted – this seems more like a reaction to a man’s efforts, rather than the result of interaction from both parties’ efforts

  16. You just gave me an idea– email me, wouldya? :)

    Sent!

    Great links Camille. Some good ideas there. Thx.

    My pleasure :)

    At the risk of outing myself as ‘white as white gets’, can someone explain what’s meant when Anna says Iyengar?

    Melissa, don’t be scurred. :) “Iyengar” is a common South Indian last name, but “Iyer/Iyengar” etc. generally denote someone’s caste, as well. [Southies, please correct me if I'm wrong]

    Also, I have an idea. Why don’t we all go to the next meetup and buy each other a drink? That way we can be a bit sloshed without any expectations or analysis of what it means to one another.

  17. chachaji said:

    Someone needs to say that larger hips are correlated with wider possible birth canals, which are related to how big the baby’s head at birth can be, which is related to how smart it can become

    So you’re saying people with bigger heads are smarter than people with smaller heads? This is absolutely untrue..but surely you know this and were just kidding?

  18. Miss Meliss,

    You’re making me giggle. AFAIK, there are two sorts of TamBrahms (Tamil Brahmins). Iyers and Iyengars.

    Iyers are Shaivite and Iyengars are Vaishnavite…but it’s a little more fluid than that, but only in one direction…while I’ve met Iyers who are named after Skanda/Karthikeya AND Krishna, I’ve never met an Iyengar named Murugan, and my Iyer friends tell me it’s because they’re more lax about such things.

    I look forward to getting my kundi chewed for botching one or more parts of that…I should’ve looked at wiki, but I’m all meh…it’s 5pm.

    Thank you for being kind enough to ask– it’s terrible of me to just assume everyone has some vague idea. People kept making jokes like I(yengar)-banking vs. I-banking and stupid things amuse me, which is why I inflict such dumb humor on you. ;)

  19. ak wrote:

    and what of this issue? and this : We’re looking for a guy that sticks out from the crowd and makes us feel special, and the only way to do that in this day and age is to buy something for us seems contrary to your point. it just seems very slanted – this seems more like a reaction to a man’s efforts, rather than the result of interaction from both parties’ efforts

    Actually when I went back and read what I wrote, I cringed at the way this came across. I was trying to get to the point that back in the day–men provided for women by hunting animals and providin, food, however, since we don’t often find ourselves out on the hunt in this day and age, one way men can provide is by buying them dinner–which (unfortunately) required money instead of manpower.

    In the end however, it really isn’t about the money. It’s about going out of your way to make a woman feel special.

    I should add that as a woman we need to be appreciative of all a guy gives us. We shouldn’t necessarily expect them to do anything (we aren’t owed anything), but when we’re treated…(to a drink, to a compliment, etc), we must acknowledge and appreciate.

  20. Melissa and Camille, all you need to know is the caste iyerarchy. Iyers rule the roost and Iyengars come a poor second.

    In seriousness, Tamil Brahmins are divided into Shiva worshippers (Iyers) and Vishnu worshippers (Iyengars). Usually, South Indian temples are divided along these lines too i.e Shiva focused or Vishnu focused. Iyers tend to go to Shiva temples, and Iyengars tend to Vishnu temples, although there is significant cross templation that happens. Iyengars are further divided into thengalai and vadagalai subsects, and conservative Tamil Brahmins only marry within the respective sects/subsects, I think. The shorthand based on external visual marks is that Iyers sport three horizontal stripes of Vibhuti (whitish sacred ash) on their forehead, and Iyengars wear a red (kumkum based?) triden shaped vertical triple line-ish thing on their forehead. There are more details on thengalai/vadagalai etc. which I think got discussed on some thread a while ago (search for a thread with the words “sattamurai”, if my memory serves me right). I am sure I got some details wrong, so the True Believers can correct me.

    As for Brahma, he just sits in a corner, wears dark eyeliner, and mopes and weeps.

  21. Don’t buy her a drink, just compliment her outfit/her smile and start talking

    Dry compliments have also been done, so why do the shit everyone does, and go right to the smile & talking, which will certainly be unique.

    Again, it’s about making her feel special and it doesn’t have to involve money.

    I agree. in fact I go further and say, it’s better if it doesn’t, then she won’t be obfuscated by any perceived manipulations to ‘buy her attention’

    it’s about taking that extra step to make a women feel special, however the means.

    But, in agreement with ak who agrees with me, why is this ‘making special’ requirement only one way? Shouldn’t the woman prove herself worthy beyond looking good in a pair of jeans? You seem to think that you/women have no work to do in a relationship, beyond being attractive enough to have a guy approach you.

    We’re looking for a guy that sticks out from the crowd and makes us feel special, and the only way to do that in this day and age is to buy something for us.

    This is frankly, idiotic, this day in age? So you think this whole ‘men paying’ thing is new modern and revamped for the 21st century? what happened in the past? people split? women paid? WTF.

    However, in the cases where you’re in situations where money is an issue (paying for dinner), the chivalrous thing to do is to offer to pay for her share as well as yours. It’s a small price to pay to impress the the shoes off the little lady.

    With all due respect, this makes no #$(@#$( sense. You say it’s not about the money, then you go on to say the only way to “impress is to pay for her share”, and go on to state “chivalry” which is a completely traditional concept.

    You write:

    “It’s a small price to pay to impress the the shoes off the little lady.” then you write

    “It’s not about money impressing women”

    A prereq to me (or anyone) understanding your point, is for you yourself to understand it, no?

  22. I also agree with Shalu that my opinion of a man goes down when he too easily accepts my offer to pay. And he’s entirely done with if he actually suggests it. It’s not about the money. It’s the form, the courtesy. Yes, it’s an irrational hangover from another era, but these little attentions (including opening doors, pulling out chairs, apologizing for certain language/topics in front of women (very rare and utterly adorable if a young man does this) do get a lot of women. They make a guy stand out in an era when the predominant form calls for men to call women hos and bitches etc.

  23. i think there are also about an order of magnitude (10 X) more iyers than iyengars. ramanujan is the most famous iyengar.

    One could say BKS rivals his stature.

  24. 600 · Divya … Try, politely touching the girl on the leg (or hair for advanced students).


    ROFL!! now that is too “liberal” even for me!

  25. So many naive comments!!! Let Divya help you out: For the ladies, ffering to pay is optional. Never go out with a man who expects you to pay UNLESS he is truly without resources. Even then, however, he should be man enough to take you to a modest place (ice cream date, walk in park) that he can afford. I don’t date the poor ones but there is NO SHAME in it. Just don’t let that cheap MD buy his BMW on YOUR NICKEL buy not paying for your dinner. PS If he really though you were hot he would NEVER try to pull this crap (he’d be too scared). See dieting, fashion and sex appeal 101 as needed. for DESI Boys: You better pay for the first drink, but paying constantly is too often like losing your quarters in Mr. Wynn’s slot machines… Try, politely touching the girl on the leg (or hair for advanced students). If she likes you she will not flinch. If she’s not interested, she’s involunarily flinch no matter how much she wants to take your hard earned currency (and BELIEVE ME we LIKE TO DO THIS). Ok, that’s your lesson. No mean posts for telling these secrets, I am trying to HELP MY SISTERS AND MY BOYZ. : Divya

    divya rocks. im going with the drink purchase.

  26. 600 · Divya … Try, politely touching the girl on the leg (or hair for advanced students).

    this is a move i would need ot be dr*nk for. d@mn it. i wish i drank alcohol.

  27. Ah, many many thanks Anna and Camille!

    Now as Anna pointed out, it’s 5pm, which clearly means it’s happy hour. :)

  28. I also agree with Shalu that my opinion of a man goes down when he too easily accepts my offer to pay. And he’s entirely done with if he actually suggests it. It’s not about the money. It’s the form, the courtesy.

    I went on a date last week (it was the third date with the same girl in succession) and I was secretly hoping throughout dinner that she would pay at least for her half. Its very expensive to go to nice places and women who can easily pay need to start shelling out the money. Unless there is sex involved its ridiculous to expect the man to keep paying after the second date.

  29. Now as Anna pointed out, it’s 5pm, which clearly means it’s happy hour. :)

    more like “classtime” for me. god im a dork.

  30. “Iyengar” is a common South Indian last name, but “Iyer/Iyengar” etc. generally denote someone’s caste, as well. [Southies, please correct me if I'm wrong]

    True in spirit. Both Iyer and Iyengar are caste names which some choose to use as family names as well. By default many (but not all) South Indians have no concept of family name, but run along as a first order Markov chain. So if your name is James Bond, your son’s name would be Junior James, not Junior Bond, and his son would be Baby Junior, not Baby James or Baby Bond. Daughters too, unless they choose hubby’s name at marriage. Pretty much exactly like Icelandic names (Oskarsdottir, Oskarsson etc). (Many Ethiopian names run along as second order Markov chains, including the grandfather’s name as well — X Y Z has a son W X Y has a son V W X and so on). Since this may not sit well in the US Immigration database (and generally in many other places), some may invent a family name like their caste name or maybe their native town. Not everyone does this, and everyone handles their handles pretty normally.

  31. And he’s entirely done with if he actually suggests it. It’s not about the money. It’s the form, the courtesy.

    I mean seriously.how would it sound if I said

    “my opinion of a women goes down if she doesn’t cook for me, it’s not about the food. It’s the form, the courtesy, yes, it’s an irrational hangover from another era, but these attentions get our attention in an era where women are ordering out more and more”

  32. Unless there is sex involved its ridiculous to expect the man to keep paying after the second date.

    aren’t you buying sex here?

  33. “my opinion of a women goes down if she doesn’t cook for me, it’s not about the food. It’s the form, the courtesy, yes, it’s an irrational hangover from another era, but these attentions get our attention in an era where women are ordering out more and more”

    yeah. a lot of grls have no interest in womens lib. dont get me wrong. everyone likes the benefits of working, equality etc. but…a lot of people would never give up the benefits of inequality.

  34. although there is significant cross templation that happens.

    True in most cases, but one of my Iyengar friends (acctually his entire family) did some pooja which washed them of all the sins and in return he had to accept the fact that would not pray to any other god except vishnu. Any one have more insight into this?

  35. Puli, just make sure you appear with the drink. I once had this horrible situation occur. A guy sent over a drink. Meanwhile another guy started chatting me up. When the drink arrived I thought the guy chatting me up had gotten it for me so I thanked him. He looked startled but then pretended he had. Then the guy who really bought the drink tapped me on the shoulder and asked me how it was. I got miffed at being hit on mid-conversation and snapped at him ‘it’s fine, thanks’. Then kept talking to the liar! Only after did I realize…

  36. “my opinion of a women goes down if she doesn’t cook for me, it’s not about the food. It’s the form, the courtesy, yes, it’s an irrational hangover from another era, but these attentions get our attention in an era where women are ordering out more and more”

    You tell’em HMF. The men have bills too. I can understand if the woman makes 1/2 of what the man makes or something. If both parties make the same amount of money, then the chivalry should not extend beyond the third date, period.

  37. True in most cases, but one of my Iyengar friends (acctually his entire family) did some pooja which washed them of all the sins and in return he had to accept the fact that would not pray to any other god except vishnu. Any one have more insight into this?

    really? the religious iyengars i know are much more liberal than that…that sounds like an evalgelical thing or something.

  38. wear a red (kumkum based?)

    yes, but usually it’s a special kind of kumkumam (at least from what i have seen), and then water is added to make a paste before it is drawn on with a needle-like instrument.

    do other castes regularly inter-marry amongst the other group (shaivites vs. vasihnavites)? in our community, the men usually stay with one group, while the women marry into a family that belongs to another group, and then take on that gothram (no idea how to explain this term). e.g. my mother’s family is vaishnavite, but she married into a shaivite family and technically switched gothrams (though she still only practises the traditions she learned in a vaishnavite household, however they may vary). is this common amongst hindus in general?

    shalu, thanks for the explanation, but still, appreciating is different from actively making him feel special. it’s the passive vs the active that i have an issue with – i.e. perpetuating the traditionally drawn gender rules when it comes to relationships.

  39. HMF wrote:

    You write:

    “It’s a small price to pay to impress the the shoes off the little lady.” then you write “It’s not about money impressing women” A prereq to me (or anyone) understanding your point, is for you yourself to understand it, no?

    I clarified my point to ak in #625. I apologize for the misunderstanding..I wrote it wrong.

  40. Al Chutiya, maybe it’s time for a side project. How about “The Sepia Mutiny Guide for Goras?” I’d buy it. I can’t tell you how many times posts on this site have sent me running into the arms of Wikipedia (not for nothing…I’m all learned and stuff now) :)

  41. very expensive to go to nice places and women who can easily pay need to start shelling out the money.

    Exactly. couldn’t I flip every one of your arguments on you, and say, “it would make me feel very special if a women offered to pay half, given the changing times when women are more indep and shows a clear effort to start acting equally?” By valuing one side over the other you are promoting a certain type of patriarchy.

    DQ, you say in one message that men take the burden on themselves, then in another one you say, if a man doesn’t decline your offer to pay, you demote him. Pick a side.

  42. Puli, just make sure you appear with the drink. I once had this horrible situation occur. A guy sent over a drink. Meanwhile another guy started chatting me up. When the drink arrived I thought the guy chatting me up had gotten it for me so I thanked him. He looked startled but then pretended he had. Then the guy who really bought the drink tapped me on the shoulder and asked me how it was. I got miffed at being hit on mid-conversation and snapped at him ‘it’s fine, thanks’. Then kept talking to the liar! Only after did I realize…

    $hit…maybe this is a bad idea….this is sounding complicated.