Whoa– is dating White not right?

this is why i only date brown.JPG

…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:

Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.

If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.

So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.

Or are they?

I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. πŸ™‚ It’s safe to be honest.

The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:

hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]

Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.

Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India Ò€” something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.

Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:

Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown πŸ™‚ [sm]

Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.

SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.

To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:

If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.

I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)

and the best one, ever,

Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.

And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.

Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that

“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.

Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”

I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.

“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”

“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”

“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”

“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”

“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”

“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“

“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”

“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”

“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”

“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”

All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:

“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”

“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” πŸ˜€

I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).

The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).

There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.

Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?

1,347 thoughts on “Whoa– is dating White not right?

  1. Indian guys like tiny little skinny things

    Shouldn’t that be: “Indian guys have tiny little skinny things” πŸ™‚

  2. Mera dil,

    In that instant gut reaction, Mera, I’m judging BOTH male and female on looks. NOT just women. It’s primal. If there were any real interaction involved, this gut reaction would recede. Did you take similar issue, btw, to the men above who said they got upset when a hot desi chick was with a white guy? THEY didn’t evaluate the male at all on his looks.

  3. Shouldn’t that be: “Indian guys have tiny little skinny things” πŸ™‚

    mebee most brown d00ds. but most def. not all in my personal experience (a set of 1).

  4. in college, i didn’t fit the mold of the typical pretty indian girl, which was what they wanted. the popular desi girls had long, straight hair, were in sororities, were on a professional track, and had a closetful of expensive lehengas to wear to all formal occasions. (my kanjeevaram saris weren’t going to cut it, being considered too south indian — aka lame — in a campus dominated by n. indians. but i have already commented about that.)

    Wait, what? This blows my mind. I didn’t hang out with desis until my final year of college, in part because I WAS in a panhellenic sorority– I was one of two Indian girls who were, out of almost two-thousand women in 12 houses. I got so much shit for going Greek, I thought it was the most anti-desi thing one could do. I’m shocked that there was some school were the popular South Asian girls straightened their shiny hair in the Theta and PiPhi houses. Shocked.

    mind you, plenty of these boys wanted to make out with me, they just didn’t think i was girlfriend material — and yes, they told me so. on top of being a party girl,

    I was in the same boat– mind you, again, BECAUSE I was in a sorority. Obviously this meant that I was a whore who had been passed around the Kappa Sig house, so unlike those demure sita/savitris, who wouldn’t go out in the sun, lest they tan, who would take it in every orifice but THAT one, I was surely the easy sorostitute whose vag was open for plunder.

    And yes, someone so “loose” and western wasn’t gf material. I must’ve been the worst party girl EVER, because of those letters on my chest– nevermind that I lived at home during college, 30 miles away, and had a 7pm curfew. The truth didn’t matter. I was in a sorority. And apparently, for some lucky &%$#@?, that didn’t work against them.

    No, I’m not bitter at all.

    ::

    I was the only Mallu at my school for a while, and one of a handful of Southies all four years. I didn’t have any lenghas either and my kanjeevarams were considered dowdy and boring. You’re not alone, Milli.

  5. My god, for centuries we have toiled, laboured, fought and clawed our way to a position of being respected for who we are and not what we look like just to have all that dismantled by other women? Aren’t we supposed to stick together? Isn’t there enough pressure from the male dominated media and ad industry? Do we need pressure from other ordinary women just like ourselves who are supposed to be our sisters? Whatever happened to female solidarity?

    WORD.

    About the culture deal, I do recognize and completely agree with what razib said here:

    this is certainly true in generation 1, but the problem of course is “the children.” then the choices need to be made, and culture is not like genetics, you (and your partner and the kids) pick and choose what gets passed on. sometimes some aspects of one culture overrule/dominate aspects of another. e.g., in south africa the most coloreds speak afrikans, are identified with the dutch reformed church, etc. the traditions of their white ancestors, not their khoisan, bantu, malay (except for the cape malays) and indian ones. myself, i don’t care about “cultural continuity” and am a pretty self-absorbed person, so “out-marrying” isn’t something i feel any guilt about, but i’ve turned my back on my family’s religion with no regrets so i’ll be happy that my kids “lost something.” it isn’t the same for other people.

    My parents are the most badass alterna-desi immigrants I’ve ever known. I’m very much in touch with parts of my culture that are critical to my identity and made me vastly different from my peers growing up. Granted, this was also fodder for a lot of playground ass kicking and being “affectionaly” nicknamed a “sand nigger”, but I am who I am. Maybe I’ll have kids that completely reject it, but I like to think with some thoughtful parenting they’ll at least take away the important parts and be (whether they’re into Indian culture or not) self-aware, independent, and definitely part of an alternative culture that doesn’t take shit from the mainstream. I choose to pass that on, coupled with some thought-provoking world travel experiences to hone their understanding of cultural relativity.

    At least I’ll have tried.

    I also have a terrifying bibliographic knowledge of most anime and manga on the market, Star Wars, RPG video games, Futurama, The Boondocks, and indie rock bands. If I’m lucky, my kid will be a brown punk rocker πŸ˜€

  6. (re #36) No need to worry, Malika, unless it’s that you’re not dark enough… πŸ™‚

  7. Mary

    when I lived in Japan I knew white boys who ran wild with their Asian fetishes (and I am not putting all white guy/Asian woman relationships in this box, but it happened). From my perspective, I found myself thinking things like “What an asshole, that guy just wants a submissive geisha/China doll, and she’s a fool for not realizing it.” Mind you I’m really not proud of that, because in some respects it’s only one step away from “I’m too much woman for you to handle!”

    Sathya

    So now you understand how black women feel about black men with white fetishes. Consider it a learning experience.

    Yes but it’s a stereotype with little to no basis. Basically those women are just jealous that someone else has got a man and they don’t. All those movies geared towards such black women lamenting for a man, such as on Oxygen and BET channels really sets feminism back by like 40 years. Black Ladies – you don’t NEED men. No woman NEEDS a man. We need water and oxygen to survive and little else. A desire for a partner is of course perfectly normal, however, don’t present yourselves or womankind as groveling beggars. It sets all of us back.

    And the black man/white woman relationship still remains in a minority. It’s not the epidemic you think it is. That’s why black men are now starting to speak up for themselves on this issue. See http://www.blackmenvent.com

  8. And the black man/white woman relationship still remains in a minority.

    yes. http://ideas.repec.org/p/red/sed004/566.html s. For example, in 2000, 9.63 percent of black males’ marriages involve white spouses while it was 3.84 percent for black females.

    but note the difference in ratios. additionally, there is a sex-imbalance in terms of college education and employment between black men and women. many young black men are also incarcerated. i don’t agree that anyone should “put their race first” or anything like that, but i think it is a bit much to dismiss the concerns of black women (or east asian men).

  9. 12 chicagodesidiva

    Interesting point about indian guys liking only ultra thing girls. I’ve experienced slightly same, but that the ABDs tend to like the thin and makeup type chicks (generalization I know!) and Desh borns have more variety in taste. I dated a few ABDs (being an ABD punjabi thick girl), but it was always the Desh – Born desis who I got along with the most, but maybe I have an inner FOB that I don’t know about (hence now engaged to a Desh born). πŸ™‚

    Dated asians and whites too (very few blacks in MN) and found that they were pretty open, not as stringint as the ABD boys in terms of a look for the girl.

  10. I may have to drink some more to really engage with this thread…

    My situation is somewhat unusual, but I have always found the desi-American social scene… romantic or otherwise… very intimidating. Even anonymous electronic forums like this can be spooky at times. Everyone, for obvious reasons, appears to be better at being desi than me… but they also seem to be better at being American… hipper, more sociable, better-looking, more affluent, etc. I (a gay male) have dated whites, Latinos and (East) Asians, but I have yet to have a serious relationship with a desi. It’s not that I find brown guys unattractive… quite the opposite. It may be that the right person just hasn’t come along yet… but I also know that I still feel a bit insecure around (other?) desis.

    PS- This thread may pass Hank Aaron before Barry Bonds does…

  11. Mera – that is so second wave. Can we women not acknowledge our sexuality without being accused of forsaking the ‘sisterhood’ or being needy? When a guy wants to fight another guy cause he snagged the girl the first guy wanted, do people like you whip out the Masculine Mystique and bonk them over the head with it? We’ve toiled, laboured, clawed as you noted – now can we just relax and be open with our desires?

  12. Physical attraction is often a function of conditioning / lack of exposure. Eg. A caucasian mate was never attracted to desi men whilst living in Australia. She did have a few desi friends / school mates etc. After a trip to india she finds brown men attractive. Another mate does not find blond men attractive because it reminds her of her older brothers!! I never did find black women attractive till I landed in the USA.

    Pink nipples does not necessary mean a pink groin. Many light skinned desi girls have pink nipples but dark groins – Wonder why.

    DBDs in USA ignore black women which is really foolish because black women are probably the most open to DBDs. My cultural learning from dating black women has not been topped. Having been a maniac about dating women from differnt cultures / nationalities I now find that my greatest comfort is with a dark skinned desi Catholic girl.

    Great admiration for the cross cultural couples for the effort that goes into making their marriages work. I could not be bothered.

  13. Honestly, I’m a dark-skinned Indian woman who Indian men have never been attracted to. Perhaps this is a blatantly generalized comment, but in all my 27 years, I’ve never been approached by an Indian guy (aside from creepy, slimy uncle types) nor ever gotten an inkling that they find me attractive. In some ways, despite other people’s (read: white guys) tendency to exoticize the other, the sense of acceptance and yes, appreciation for my female charms, that I’ve received from white men has been something of a validation, which is perhaps part of the reason why I am generally more attracted to them than Indian guys. I know that’s a loaded comment, so take it as you will, but please don’t make assumptions about me based on that–I just said it’s “part of the reason.” In general, I’ve dated people who, on a level of class, have more in common with me, and few of the privileged, hyper-competitive-in-the-capitalist-market Indian guys I’ve met fit the bill. And strangely, the ones who do are gay…

  14. Pink nipples does not necessary mean a pink groin. Many light skinned desi girls have pink nipples but dark groins – Wonder why.

    1) in Skin: A Natural History nina jablonski points out that the groin has the highest concentration of melanin.

    2) as for light skinned desi girls with pink nipples, color me skeptical. in all the euro-porn i’ve seen southern europeans whose skin colors match those of light skinned desis have brown nipples. perhaps i wasn’t looking closely, though i will be convinced by photographic evidence πŸ˜‰

  15. Cinnamon Razib – don’t think your fair lady would like that. I try not to trespass on a sister’s territory (Mera’s gonna get me for that one…)

  16. For example, in 2000, 9.63 percent of black males’ marriages involve white spouses while it was 3.84 percent for black females

    I remember reading somewhere that 5% of all married US white women were married to black men, also circa 2000. If 13% of the US population is black, and 70% is white, I would expect roughly 13/70 (or about 19%) of all black men (women) to be married to white women (men), but that’s before looking at things like the sex ratio (which may differ between ‘races’), and the age distribution of the sex ratio, and the class skew in marriage statistics – that is, ‘middle class’ people are more likely to be married, upper-class people are likely to be married more often, etc.

  17. despite it being a weekend, I predict 150 comments on this thread by sunday evening. πŸ˜‰

    v-man, u suck as a predictor. it’ll be 150 in an hour πŸ˜‰

  18. Did you take similar issue, btw, to the men above who said they got upset when a hot desi chick was with a white guy? THEY didn’t evaluate the male at all on his looks.

    DQ, yes I take issue with people who evaluate the woman’s looks but not the man’s as expressed in comment number 49 in regards to black people who comment on black men with “fat ugly white women”, as if the men those white women are with look like Denzel Washington or something. Suddenly when a couple becomes inter-racial, the woman’s looks are taken into account even more so than if she were with a man of her own race. This I guess gives a pass to all the less than ordinary looking women of the man’s race who feel he should’ve chosen them just based on skin color or racial similarity alone. All of a sudden a white woman with their same figure becomes “fat” whereas they are “phat” (read: voluptuous). And if a black brother is gonna chose Miss Whitey over a homegirl, she better be Angelina Jolie otherwise he can’t justify passing up the couch potatoes from his own community. Come on!

    There’s got to be more to go on in a relationship than just the color of one’s skin and a (often imagined) similar background.

    Regarding Indian women with white or black guys – sometimes it’s assumed that a white or black man will be more liberal and progressive in regards his views towards women and their roles in family society. That is a BIG draw for women these days, especially if they’ve seen women in their family or social circles held back in any way by their men. Yeah, it might be a stereotype, but you can’t deny that some women think like that. And Milli brings up a good point about sexuality. Some men do think that women with an active sex life are “sluts” and not girlfriend/wife worthy material. Naturally such women would seek out men who don’t carry that mentality as baggage – regardless of their racial backgrounds.

  19. This post has brough up a slightly off topic plea for advice.

    I grew up mixed (father from India) and in a white US suburb. Married to an indian woman for many years with similar interests, etc. (I don’t think my dad was happy–re-browning the blood and all)

    My relationship/marriage is great and we’re way past the honeymoon stage, but I still wrestle with a prejudice where my first reaction is to be on the defensive when meeting most white people–in fact I recently realized that I’ve been unconsciously cutting any new white people out of my life.

    I think some of it stems from school/college instances of physical violence where I was put down pretty hard–and for reasons too long to get into, not able to adequately defend myself. Incidents are rare and far between but outside my workplace two years ago I was shoved around a bit by construction workers who thought I was a student (I was 30). I stood my ground but it was damn embarrassing. Do has anyone have any advice in helping diminish an unease around the “paler nation”? At times, I wish I could rip half of myself out and take a side, but that’s a bit ridiculous and helping no one.

  20. Yes, that sounds right, I was just trying to see how far actuals are from expecteds in a ‘non-racist’ world.

  21. Razib – for light skinned desi girls the colour of nipples ranges from black to brown to pink. Sorry mate no photographs. This does not mean that lighter the skin tone lighter the nippples. Quite a random occurrence I would aver.

  22. I’m shocked that there was some school were the popular brown girls blew out their shiny hair in the Theta and PiPhi houses. Shocked.

    VAT??? ooooh no. all the “popular” brown girls were in the best sororities (popular in the SASA context). and yes, they did sport the perfect shiny blowout, how did you know? i was one of two desi girls in my entire dorm that didn’t rush (and there were a lot of us). i would say there was enough diversity at my school that the greek system didn’t dominate — that is to say, it wasn’t cool or uncool to be greek — but all the SASA/ISA/various ethnic board administrators were definitely in the sororities and frats with the better reputations. the desi sorority girls didn’t have a bad reputation, because they were participating in known, sanctioned types of party activities where plenty of their male counterparts were. i can only surmise that i gained a bad reputation because of my looks (at the time, very short hair with multiple piercings) and my friends (too diverse for the SASA crowd and hey, we partied hard). never mind that i drove to the suburbs to go to the temple once a week with my parents, actually knew about my culture beyond bollywood and fashion, and would have been happy to befriend them had they not referred to me as “short hair girl.”

  23. This does not mean that lighter the skin tone lighter the nippples. Quite a random occurrence I would aver.

    no, the genetics if skin color is pretty well elucidated, and the various genes have gross correlated effects throughout the body. the concentration in melanin in the genitals and nipples and ass track pretty closely the unexposed underarm skin (where you take a “unbiased” skin reflectance measure).

  24. No woman NEEDS a man. We need water and oxygen to survive and little else.

    That is true in the developed world where women are gainfully employed and materially self-sufficient. You cant say the same about places like the Indian Subcontinent.

    And the black man/white woman relationship still remains in a minority. It’s not the epidemic you think it is

    Who said it was an epidemic? Ditto for the white men/oriental women relationships. That too is a minority of course. But there is no denying the rampant lust black men have for white women; and white men have for oriental women.

    The ~10% rate of black men marrying white women in America does not mirror the actual miscegenation rate though. Black men may not be considered marriage material by many white women in the US but when it comes to sexual relations the proportion of black american men in relationships (often temporary) with white women is substantially higher than 10%. In the UK even the marriage rates between carribean blacks and british whites approach 50%; while that between desis (mostly punjabis in the UK) and native whites is minuscule.

  25. Completely relate to Milli’s experience. My university was full of the hot, Barbie-doll desi girls with artificially straightened hair and Banana Republic wardrobes…conventional but cute. While I always had a goth streak, I never blatantly displayed it. I was the girl with embarrassingly curly hair, coke bottle glasses and bad skin. It’s no wonder nobody (i.e., desi boys) was interested in me, but thinking about it now makes me feel like that chick in the old Milk commercial–you know, the girl who grew into her body and became hot, and is now chastising the dork she had a crush on, who never noticed her until it was too late. Ah, sweet retribution…

  26. “All I’m saying is, each to his own – and embracing another culture does not mean losing the grip on your own!”

    “this is certainly true in generation 1, but the problem of course is “the children.” then the choices need to be made, and culture is not like genetics, you (and your partner and the kids) pick and choose what gets passed on.”

    True, true. But this is also true even if you marry within your culture I think – you, your partner, your kids will always pick and choose what they want to take from what’s on offer so…And I think this is evident in South African Indian society – people from the same or similar origins practice entirely different customs and traditions (for some things e.g. wedding customs), each proclaiming to be doing it “the proper way”. I’ve always thought that this was because the customs, culture, whatever was kinda diluted from one generation to the next (i.e. the picking and choosing bit). Personally, I’ve always thought my family’s a bit of an anomaly (we’re not even sure where we originate since the family tree seems to start with my grandparents, both sets of which were born in SA!) – so I’ve always been happy with picking and choosing what I like out of the “culture”, so personally I’d have no problem in a rainbow family, but i guess others would. My point, aside from culture and whatever, is that people should be allowed to choose what they want and shouldn’t be condemned by “their people” for their choices. And if they choose to be in a mixed race (or however you want to term it) relationship, they should be aware of and definitely deeply consider issues such as “what to do with the kids”.

    “sometimes some aspects of one culture overrule/dominate aspects of another. e.g., in south africa the most coloreds speak afrikans, are identified with the dutch reformed church, etc. the traditions of their white ancestors, not their khoisan, bantu, malay (except for the cape malays) and indian ones.”

    Also true – but this overshadowing of cultures and customs was a forced one. This country is making an effort to revive waning cultures…how successful that will be remains to be seen. In terms of the Indian culture – the Indian communities have always made an effort to retain their culture. They built their own schools, taught their languages, built temples and mosques and churches, etc. In terms of cultures and traditions lost in SA, I think the Indians guarded their’s well and so more of it survived…Well, I think they fared better than most in those terms.

  27. Interesting point about indian guys liking only ultra thin girls. I’ve experienced slightly same, but that the ABDs tend to like the thin and makeup type chicks (generalization I know!) and Desh borns have more variety in taste.

    Conditioned by American media and America’s Next Top Model type shows and ads that promote only one body type. Desh borns on the otherhand can still appreciate Madhuri Dixit and Sri Devi type figures, which are still considered curvaceous in India (although that is changing too), while in America the same figure is considered “chubby”, if not “fat”. Just see the latest criticism of Tyra Banks http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2837578, who by the way, looks much “hotter” and “bootylicious” now to black American men than when she was model thin. Of course, your average young white guy and anyone influenced by him would consider her thighs “thunder”.

  28. despite it being a weekend, I predict 150 comments on this thread by sunday evening. πŸ˜‰

    haha vinod; Sunday.. you underestimate the mutineers πŸ˜€

  29. Head-down-desi:

    I applaud you for being so honest – congrats on your relationship. I’m so sorry for the pain you’ve gone through. I suggest the following:

    1. Learn to box. It is an excellent discipline, makes you feel fantastic, gives you a killer body – and once trained, even if you’re 5″4 and 130 pounds, you can take out someone much bigger who is untrained.

    2. Talk therapy.

    3. Immerse yourself in milieus based purely on your personal passions (ie literature, kayaking, jogging, astronomy – whatever) and you will make friends of all colours who will help you to forget somewhat about racial distinctions.

  30. nevermind, your points ring true. my only thing is this: time is finite, and there are a finite number of things you can inculcate in a child. there are people who say they are raising their children “jewish & christian.” the reality of course is that they are raising them half jewish and half christian, it isn’t like these children have time to go to both temple and church, time to know all the doctrines of christianity and the observances of judaism. that is why some couples will choose one religion, because it is easier to orient a child. in any case, culture always evolves and people pick & choose. i have hindu ancestors and muslim ones within the past few centuries, but everyone in my family is now muslim. i have ancestors (my paternal grandfather’s father for example) who spoke urdu as their first language, but now we (my parents’ generation) all speak bengali. it isn’t like i speak 1/8 urdu and 7/8 bengali. the urdu is gone. so i don’t dismiss the concerns of those who focus on racial or cultural continuity. if they care about such things then they better watch out.

  31. No woman NEEDS a man. We need water and oxygen to survive and little else.
    That is true in the developed world where women are gainfully employed and materially self-sufficient. You cant say the same about places like the Indian Subcontinent.

    Sathya, I’m talking here about the Oxygen and BET channels movies which portray strong, intelligent, career oriented black women as grovelingly needy of a man, a black man specifically. It reinforces a stereotype – of both black men and women. Black women are portrayed as being desperately hungry for a black man who in turn is portrayed as being hungry for a white woman or otherwise an uncommitted “playa” with “baby’s momma drama” baggage. Despite being successful, intelligent, beautiful, etc, these women will mope around and lament for the good black man that eludes them.

  32. At times, I wish I could rip half of myself out and take a side, but that’s a bit ridiculous and helping no one.

    I so know the feeling. I do have the “luxury” of being light enough to pass for white, but that means I get a less than enthusiastic response from some desis, athough never to the point of violence. I’m not sure what the answer is… I feel alternately drawn to and threatened by both sides. One thing I have learned, however, is that neither of them holds the moral high ground. Both can be extraordinarily closed-minded and bigoted. I wince when I go to Fark and its ilk after some terrorist attack or other brown-related act of mass stupidity and see the inevitable threads filled with “GLASS PARKING LOT!” and “RELIGION OF PIECES!,” but I know I’ll see exactly the same sentiments, albeit couched in more sophisticated language, expressed in responses at this and other desi sites…

  33. What if the gora speaks Hindi, studies South Asian history (academically), loves Bollywood, sings Kishore Kumar songs… or does that almost never happen?

  34. appears to be better at being desi than me…

    I feel the same way sometimes. But, I don’t know that there is (IMO there should not be) a barometer on the quality of desiness. Just because I was not into the ISA social scene in college does not make me a bad indian – i still take my mom on vacations back to bombay like a good daughter and I am still a good friend to my white/black/euro/middle eastern/asian friends. But I can totally understand where you are coming from. Most of my friends and the last few guys I have been interested in are not Desi–though they are curious and readily accept our culture. I mean, don’t get me wrong I am attracted to desi men. I think for me, I tend to let a lot of my criteria fall to the side if a dude is a desi–maybe I do that out of convenience or attraction, haven’t figured that out and don’t really want to. I fall in love with who I fall in love with. Sure, my life in the future would be easier if I didnt introduce amma and appa to my latest love interest, but then again would it not be just as difficult if I settled, instead of settling down? Such questions! ANNA thanks for posting this, I personally appreciate it. I have often wondered what the Mutineers thought about it.

  35. I so know the feeling. I do have the “luxury” of being light enough to pass for white, but that means I get a less than enthusiastic response from some desis, athough never to the point of violence. I’m not sure what the answer is… I feel alternately drawn to and threatened by both sides. One thing I have learned, however, is that neither of them holds the moral high ground. Both can be extraordinarily closed-minded and bigoted. I wince when I go to Fark and its ilk after some terrorist attack or other brown-related act of mass stupidity and see the inevitable threads filled with “GLASS PARKING LOT!” and “RELIGION OF PIECES!,” but I know I’ll see exactly the same sentiments, albeit couched in more sophisticated language, expressed in responses at this and other desi sites after a highly publicized hate crime or Homeland Security witch hunt…

    (fixed this… mods can delete the other post)

  36. What if the gora speaks Hindi, studies South Asian history (academically), loves Bollywood, sings Kishore Kumar songs… or does that almost never happen?

    It works. But oftentimes the families of the couples will interfere. It can be very difficult having a partner with very tight family ties.

  37. What if the gora speaks Hindi, studies South Asian history (academically), loves Bollywood, sings Kishore Kumar songs… or does that almost never happen?

    uh, wut if the americo-brown doesn’t know hindi? that would be real funny.

  38. Despite being successful, intelligent, beautiful, etc, these women will mope around and lament for the good black man that eludes them.

    Isn’t that what Sex and the city was all about too when it comes to a common underlying theme? Except there the color of the dude was usually white I guess. I have always wondered why women loved it so much.

  39. and my friends (too diverse for the SASA crowd and hey, we partied hard). never mind that i drove to the suburbs to go to the temple once a week with my parents, actually knew about my culture beyond bollywood and fashion, and would have been happy to befriend them had they not referred to me as “short hair girl.”

    Sing it sista! Yeah, my group in school and especially now in my 20s was/is the same way. Of course I love my desi friends, but there is no distinction anymore between them and my other friends. They are all equally crazy.

    I think at one point I was referred to as “X’s roommate” who was so “interesting” Ah well, better to be different and original than boring.

  40. Indian guys like tiny little skinny things _________________________________________________ Interesting point–I am guilty as charged–why are my prefereces so stereotypical here–media?

    Guilty as charged here too. Though I do think it’s got to do with social conditioning and the women around you. Thus even in desis(especially DBDs probably because the media social conditioning may not be as much) those desis who come from communities with women generally being thicker relatively, men don’t desire thinner women as much. Ditto African Americans.

  41. Isn’t that what Sex and the city was all about too when it comes to a common underlying theme? Except there the color of the dude was usually white I guess. I have always wondered why women loved it so much.

    True. And from an Indian perspective, 4 woman at 40 carrying on like college girls, not being “settled down” with husband, children and routine family life, is very, very, very weird, very trifling.

  42. Thanks, DQ. Some self-defense appt’s have been scheduled. This “heads-down” realization cropped up suddenly while reading today’s post, didn’t realize how much it was impacting me until this afternoon:) I sincerely appreciate the response.

  43. A character from Paul BeattyÒ€ℒs White Boy Shuffle observes, Ò€œWhen a black man marries a white woman, his lifeÒ€ℒs achievements are multiplied by exactly zeroÒ€. **Pulled out of my cobwebbed memory. Actual sentence may be slightly different.

    What does that mean?

  44. In my (somewhat disastrous) dating history, I’ve been in relationships with one brown guy, one white guy, and one East Asian guy. For the most part it has been a non-issue, but I have gotten whispers from other desi girls re: what is she thinking, swapping perfectly-fine-desi-dude for someone else? However, the very same girls weren’t too impressed with my lack of involvement in the desi ‘scene’ (unintentional – I grew up here and wasn’t really exposed to particularly mingling with other desi families) and the fact that I don’t have any ‘qualifying characteristics’ for potential boyfriends (I usually just fall into relationships). But on flip side, I have some very nice brown girlfriends who don’t give a hoot as to who I date, so at the end of the day my conclusion is…that there is no conclusion to be made. πŸ™‚ In my experience I have found that most objections/opinions about desis dating non-desis arise from people’s own personalities and personal hangups rather than due to any inherent desiness. (I’m sure this last line makes no sense – I can’t seem to write today)

  45. mebee most brown d00ds. but most def. not all in my personal experience (a set of 1).

    Maybe you have some african ancestry then? Bengal was ruled by african muslim warlords (the Habshis) a few centuries ago, and they must have liberally spread their genes around in the native population. Of course African ancestry is not as fashionable as arab, persian or turk ancestry among desi muslims, which is why it is not boasted about or even acknowledged. But genetic tests, or visual cues (such as lip or penis size) could reveal your heritage.