…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
I think that puliogre/puliyodarai/puliodhrai/etc. are all acceptable spellings.
isn’t that a regional difference re the spelling – in karnataka and AP, i think puliogre, puliogara etc is used, and in TN mostly puliodhare. mallus – what is it in kerala?
Pinda – you cook tambram food? your points just went up high, i-banker status be damned 😉
I heard that though both types of TBs eat it, it’s an Iyengar specialty, so listen to Milli. 😉
are there a lot of desi grls in banking? i dont meet a lot of them….most of the banker grls i meet are unattractive whyte grls with anger management issues.
sweet. puli going up despite vapid comments…i knew puli-mom told me to learn to cook for good reason…
Milli is an Iyengar? i dont see very many Iyengars (despite being one)
sn’t that a regional difference re the spelling – in karnataka and AP, i think puliogre, puliogara etc is used, and in TN mostly puliodhare.
ah, true true. ve are only transilterating our fine langvidges anyvay, isn’t it? thanks for the vote of confidence, pondatti, but puliodarai is my least favorite of the yummy rices — gimme coconut rice or lemon rice any day! 😉
ha ha. you should have been born to my dad, who tortured me to switch into the b-school to study finance (read : i-banking) for all 8 semesters of college. at some point, i actually thought that he wanted to adopt a family friend’s child since he was so impressed with his i-banking track (but he quickly dropped from greatness when he chose a distinctly different career path – my dad is fickle that way). to this day, i can be assured my dad will forgive a lot so long as my future partner were just an i-banker.
Thanks intern in 1151… my bad there.
I’m quite happy being a doctor. And if I could go back and do things over, the only other thing I might have considered instead was the finance/M.B.A route (if I was in college right now, I’d double major in business and Chinese, and then go make millions). This despite a HUGE interest (going back to my high school days) in sociology, cultural anthropology, and the humanities in general (as I think my posts here show). I have no regrets that I never pursued a career in the humanities (except that maybe I could have been a popular professor with lots of adoring female grad students)…I have been able to maintain my interests in anthropology, etc. without having to dedicate my life to them.
Milli is an Iyengar? i dont see very many Iyengars (despite being one)
Omigod, we’re cousins!!
😉
vaguely reminds me of the time my friend almost responded to one of his cousins (pctureless) profiles on s.com.
This “alterna-desi” theme is interesting to me. I’m not claimig any typicality, but although I am a (struggling) film-distribution “alterna-desi” most of my frieds (desi and otherwise) are in law or finance. Are they going to shun me as they move up the ladder… Of course, I do plan to hit it big at some point!
puli-amma got it right – and she sounds awesome. i wish there were more like her – my mom didn’t even encourage my brother to eat south indian food (he had a separate dinner every night) much less cook it, or anything else.
there are a lot, if not i-banking then at least finance. though i’m sorry to say, most of the ones i know are taken. though there are still a few single ones floating around, and that, too, in nyc…and they’re all skinny and straight-haired!
not unless they r $hitheads who value a person by their wallet…if they are not, good for you. if they are, no loss…
Hmmm…care to make any introductions? Although I prefer ‘tagdi’ to skinny.
To sum up (so far):
Some us ABDs identify more closely with our chosen* subcultures than with the culture of the Motherland. Dating outside our “subculture” may be harder for some us than dating outside “our” culture.
Exoticization works in mysterious ways.**
I take troll bait too easily. Props to everyone for not taking what Sravas had to offer.
We would all do well to question our assumptions. Regularly.
We should make more space for our queer sisters and brothers.
I had some more points to sum up but I forgot them in the time that I wrote this. Rats! (More to come.)
*In as much as we choose our subcultures. I would argue that I have a natural affinity for my anti-authoritarian anti-capitalist circles. I would also argue that the subcultures I identify with are more closely aligned with the values of the Motherland (as I understand them) than the mainstream American consumer culture which has become the normative desi diaspora culture.
**I overheard a Gujrati cheerleader in jr. high say to another student, in reference to me, “Hell no! We’re not the same. My people hate his people.” (I was a Sikh b-boy/punk.)
I once read an article which asserted that groups which share many similarities will hate each other more fiercely than groups which are clearly distinct. For example, “civil” wars will be much more brutal than uncivil (?) wars. Witness the raw hatred between Indians and Pakistanis, Hutus and Tutsis, Serbs and Croats, Jews and Arabs, Nigerians and Biafrans, etc. I don’t mean to diminish post-colonial effects of inequitable resource distribution, but I think this hatred goes beyond that.
To differentiate ourselves and assert our distinct individuality in the eyes of the exoticizing third-party observer, we declare hatred for one another. (“No, we’re nothing like those Hindus/Palestinians/Tutsis. In fact, we hate them!”)
(For the record, by high school, the Gujrati cheerleader and I were in love and choosing names for our babies. She later converted to Christianity and married an African American from her church, I think.)
ok…thats it…someones going to have to intro me to some of these friends that seem to be plentiful….next ny meetup people!
Milli/Puli, 5 bucks says we are all related somehow !!
Why is this eye roll worthy? Ive been on both sides of the coin, that is, doing my passion for next to no money, by doing it full time, and working more mundane jobs that pay more just to support those things. Sometimes having that step away from your “passion” is what you need to become more passionate about it.
Secondly, I’m glad you don’t do things just for money. I’m also fairly sure you are a female, and despite how trollish or heteronormative or whatever it sounds, it’s a f*cking reality. Guys in our community are not simply not afforded the same kind of unlucrative career optioning as you all are. Not to discount any difficulties you had with your parents, but those were made for idealogicial reasons moreso than practical ones, in all likelihood.
we ist a mutiny within a mutiny. any more in da house?
girl in artsy low paying job = pretty artsy girl
guy in artsy low paying job = bum. will be single forever.
girl in high powered job = shes a professional beta, very smart girl. good to marry
guy in high powered job = expected requirement.
amitabh, i commend your penchant for tagdi-ness. as to the both of you, most of these girls are not friends with me – since i was basically not ‘cool’ enough for them back in college (i was not skinny back then, nor straight-haired, and everytrhing else that comes with those two things). however, i can ask around from my guy finance friends – they’ll have a better insight. and if i make it to the nyc meetup, i’ll have a spread-sheet of the vitals for the both of you
Dating white not right? In the movie Kabhi Alvida Nahin Kehna, in the first song, tittled Rock and Roll Sonye, the Movie God himself (Amitabh Bacchan) basically worships white skin with setting full of white American women. If we really think that dating white is not ok, we should start with Bollywood which has been increasingly using whites in their caste, eg. Kisna and to back to an all Indian cast. Or do we want white people around so that we can just worship them and fall prostate at their feet?
As far as the young lady attending the Christian academy is concerned, unless you are as light (or white) as Preity Zinta, your date’s family also said the same thing…and if you were they probably kept quiet because they thought you were white. Here in Northern Virginia, I know at least one Indian woman who is fooling a white family which is pretty racist and does not like immigrants…I think she will get her marriage arranged and dump him in a few months. I know the conservative Christian whites. When I lived in India, the church taught as bad things about Caste Hindus being the devils who discriminated. Sorry. The caste Hindus are pretty open minded compared to white conservative Christians, or for that matter most whites.
vitals and spreadsheet in the same sentence. as paris hilton would say, “that’s hot”
Thank you Puli (1173). Although, OppositeLand members will shriek in horror, everything you said is true.
my mom didn’t even encourage my brother to eat south indian food (he had a separate dinner every night) much less cook it, or anything else.
HMPH. and some wonder why they need “grounding?!”
oh, i agree (we are talking about desi societal perception, right?) but i have an addendum
girl in high powered job = shes a professional beta, very smart girl. good to marry. but watch out for those ‘difficult’ ones : too smart and independent to be proper wives/DILs
he sounds deprives. its really good stuff. although my mom also encouaraged me to cook north indian, italian, thai, chineese, mexican…puli-amma wanted me to be more open minded with food than her upbringing in the desh.
never knew exactly what that meant….(respected) people i know say “independant is good, but if they are too independant they are more likely to divorce” not sure how independance is defined.
so what? thats a differnt phenom unto itself. worthy of discussion. still doesn’t negate the other three.
it is a nice thing to have the option in the community to choose to be professional or artsy (crude dichotomy. i know.) one of those patronizing benefits of patriarchy i guess…
i try to get rid of these as much as possible. they dont make any sense. (for the record).
Hot.
Where are these elusive Sikh punks??
I should have added “doctors/engineers/bankers” to that list.
Secondly, I’m glad you don’t do things just for money. I’m also fairly sure you are a female, and despite how trollish or heteronormative or whatever it sounds, it’s a f*cking reality. Guys in our community are not simply not afforded the same kind of unlucrative career optioning as you all are. Not to discount any difficulties you had with your parents, but those were made for idealogicial reasons moreso than practical ones, in all likelihood.
Oh, but you are completely discounting the battle royale I had with my parents to do what I am doing now. The night before I moved to the bay area, an uncle called my house to tell me that I was “ruining my life by becoming a teacher,” “wasting my parents’ money,” and shaming our name in general. My mother barely spoke to me for a year and both of my parents begged me to stop the insanity and go to med school for probably two or three years after I had made my choice. So please don’t talk to me about being “afforded” this career option. I am also an only child and this changes the ballgame completely. The chorus of “how on earth are you going to take care of us when we are older?” is heard approximately 10 times a week in my household. Idealogical reasons, puh-lease. My father, since my birth, has expected me to cook, sew, clean, and iron with expertise while simultaneously pursuing my Ph.D., marriage, and 2.5 children. Oh yeah, and they’ve always be to be financially stable independent of my husband. So I’m sorry, but your thinking is just way off base.
I guess the word should be uncompromising. But then that applies to guys too.. in conservative desi circles there is this inherent sexism that a successful woman is more likely to divorce. This probably has come from the age old tradition of woman always being more compromising in Indian marriages and the new age successful woman wont take as much crap.
…leaving work early to go home and put on a nice Italian suit. Look out Village barbie-doll desis at happy hour– tonite, I’m an i-banker–gonna get me some sweet “grounding”– woot, woot!! Will report back later….
not saying its always the case, but it is clearly an option for more grls and no non-plutocrat guys. not saying that all grls have this option. its just much more likely. although it doesnt fit your life, the thinking is clearly not “completely off base”
id like to know your success rate. also, provide your stats to put context to the success rate…
While I appreciate my family’s support as I pursue a career in literature, I still find it amusing when my dad says stuff like “I should have never let you study English…” As if he could have stopped me. Sometimes you have take the initiative. (Forgive me if I come off as a privileged snot–I don’t come from a wealthy background, but I am the only son so there’s little wrong I can do, and I understand that that is a position of power.) I know that I’ve been making a case for less judgment, but those of us who struggled and challenged our parents’ may have a hard time understanding how those who didn’t swallowed that bitter pill.
oye kiddan! seriously, mate, guju birds literally throw themselves at you. me finks gujus have the most interracial relationships than any otha desi group…second is south indians, third bengalis.
spicy brown munda has man-love for you, harbeer.
Re: 1187
Milli, I hear you. If its any consolation – I had and lost – the same battle with my parents back in the Des.Almost identical except my alternate reality was not teaching.And my uncle did not call me but made a trip to our home and “convinced” my dad that I was throwing my life away.Next thing I knew – I was in professional college and hurtling towards my current deskbound existence.
So Puli/HMF et al enough with the “girls can get away with non lucrative careers etc “- maybe some ,not all!!
vitals and spreadsheet in the same sentence. as paris hilton would say, “that’s hot”
of course not, but since we are dealing with generalizations, some of which were negative, i thought i would throw it out there. i.e. the take on the professional girl is not always a good one. PindaUSA – it depends on who is looking at it, and how they are looking at marriage for their son. basically, if the expectation is of a capable yet somewhat subservient wife, this can swing it in the direction of disfavour.
seriously. we always had south indian food at night, because we all basically ate amerian food during the day. but this lack of experience with south indian food has made him avoid any cuisine that can be spicy – thai, mexican etc, even though my parents eat all kinds of foods. even now, when we have a family dinner with my brother present, it is never desi food, unless north indian. but i’m a bit biased – i think south indian food (followed closely by italian and thai) is the best – the kid has no idea what he’s missing…
im not saying all. im saying most. with guys most cant get away with it. not all.
hmm and I always wanted to be a dorky engineer… I guess parents had smooth sailing with me.. 😛
im not even really saying most. well…at least most of the people ive seen.
the thinking is clearly not “completely off base”
HMF made an assertion about my experience without basing it on anything besides my gender, which itself was an assumption. So yes, his thinking was completely off base. And I would assume his ideas would also seem offensive and off base to any other only female children as well (yes, I know we are a rare breed amongst desis), especially those of us that do not come from a wealthy background.
Gujus, yes. Bengalis, yes (in fact, a friend who belongs to one of those groups just got married to someone from the other, but South Indians?? Really?
hmm…i didnt read anything that way at all. can you pl quote what your reffering to?
where the f-ck are you all meeting these people. geez….