…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
it wasn’t addressed to anyone in particular, but everyone in general in a big-picture sort of way…mainly because I eyeballed the comments quickly but did not read comment after comment (it is a little hard when there are over 1000). So I don’t know who said what specifically, and despite understanding the excitement I wanted to
throw in a wet blanket,be a she-devil advocate, address the down side of keeping an eye on the number of comments written. This reference to number of comments appeared on other threads in the 2 months I have been here. In MY opinion, this is a POTENTIAL ‘trap’ for both writers and readers…the irony is that I am adding to the count.They do love adventure.
what can i say, i’m more of an urban adventurer. it would never work.
milli @ 1101 said:
I applaud you for admitting this and making efforts to explode your notions of “hot,” especially in being open to the i-bankers. Everybody’s got something to teach us, I think, even if it’s just a lesson in humility. (Are the “i-bankers” as identically vapid as we may think? Probably not. Are we “outside the mainstream”ers as singularly unique as we might like to think? Again, probably not.) I used to be a superficial shit, too, and I was much lonelier back then. I’m still much more judgmental than I’d like to be.
Lizzie (greeneyed fem) @ 1099: That was me who said I’m not sure about babies but being the only male offspring intensifies the pressure. Neither of my sisters has kids, either, but that would make little difference in our patriarchal society, anyway. I think it’s pretty cool that you and your friends and lovers can be so open with your families.
yikes. most of the people i work with arent vapid at all. a lot of very bright, well rounded people actually…
Seriously, admitting this is applaud worthy.
@1099 good insight. I also find it interesting that in 1100+ comments, there has been just one discussion between the two of us on non-hetero dating and interest from one of the commenters. Is there no one else out there and how about the regular commenters? Are they being PC or does it genuinely not interest them one bit…
Man, HMF, you can kill it better than Dick Cheney hunting quail with their wings clipped.
If you never hear from me again, you know it is because I was shot in the face and then sent off to recover in a sunny island in the Caribbean tropics.
i would imagine that a comment about non-hetero issues would generate a lot of interest from a non hetero crowd. not sure what the stats are on SM readership.
What!?
Harbeer, this is really true. I meant to allude to this earlier, but I think one of the hardest parts of moving towards meaningful conversations with people outside of your subgroup/social circle is figuring out how to overcome the initial stereotypes/projections, but also the geographic distance. At least in the Bay, I do feel like there is a “scene” for different folks based on location, which can be a bit frustrating. I suppose that’s another good argument for a meetup, though 🙂
dilerium tremens @ 1109: Since this thread is ostensibly about the taboo against dating outside one’s race, the even greater taboo against dating outside the heteronormative binary gender construction…I have no idea how to say what I’m trying to say…
I guess what I’m trying to say is that if people have a beef with heteros dating “outside their race,” the assumption is that they’re not ready to start criticizing gender construction, which is unfortunate, because a lot of comments (some of mine, even) in this thread actually reinforce rigid definitions of gender and heterosexuality.
I look forward to the day when queer South Asians can engage this “outside your race” topic as fully as the “normal” desis.
ah gotta stop going to those taco tuesdays in the Marina..
Okay, didn’t read through all 1104 comments (sorry!) but had to add in my 2 cents on behalf of the sisters, especially in response to the guys who complain that Desi women are too preoccupied with jobs, salary, status, etc.
I’m went to film school, worked at a human rights organization and am an aspiring screenwriter — and when I ran down this biodata with potential matches in the Desi communities, I would get only confused nods. I was completely befuddling these guys.
Of course, they were generally doctors or i-bankers. I’m sure if I had run across a Desi artist/activist in that time, they would have totally gotten it — however, they are few and far between in those fields (South Asian sisters, however, are all over the nonprofit scene!). At the time, white guys were only dudes who understood my curly-haired, non-skinny, non-traditional career self and those were the guys I dated. I also was predominantly attracted to white guys because I grew up in the Midwest. However, after moving out to New York, I realized – damn, there are fine men in every size, shape, color and creed. I still had hopes of ending up with a Desi guy long-term, just because I knew it would make life easier for myself (and my family). Still, I made peace with the fact that finding a compatible brown dude was a longshot.
I take exception when Desi guys lump their female counterparts into one gold-digging, hair-flipping, career-judging category — probably as much as they would if I labelled them all as clubbing, hair-gelled, conservative i-bankers (even though that was my general experience).
Amazingly, I’m now with a Desi engineer(!), and we get each other. So go figure.
Actually, I’ve been really enjoying the posts between you and Lizzie, but I don’t really have anything to contribute aside from my attention. I guess I feel that, as a hetero desi, it’s not really my place (and is inappropriate) to invade the conversational space you two have created. I’m sorry we’ve been so heteronormative; I think we haven’t all figured out, necessarily, how to have a more inclusive conversation, but hopefully we’re all getting there. 🙂
Girrrrrrl, that is the truth!
Sista – I work with activists who never think about economics and it’s considerations when we start a campaign and thus I am the evil one to spoil the party and preach that. And then I preach one world, one love mumbo jumbo to my fellow engineers and finance colleagues and I again get crazy looks. At least you have just one side that does not get you.
why all the vitriol spewed at doctors and i-bankers. you must HATE the ex pre-med I banker…geez..
Err, not really… at least the activists.
Hahaha — then you’re the valuable bridge between the two worlds. Keep on keepin’ on! The rest of us will catch up, eventually 🙂
I would really like to hear from any queer-identified people about their experiences being exoticized and objectified as desis within the queer scene. I have a gay cousin who, unfortunately, is too wild and self-destructive to have the self-awareness to say anything interesting on the topic.
On anther note, My Hero and Idol JB’s partner is mixed Eastern European/Desi. (JB is white.) The partner’s family has finally come around to accepting that he’s gay (only son, to boot), but My Hero and Idol JB never had any beef with them because he was always amazed at how much his lover’s family loved his lover. (“If they love him so much, they can’t be all that bad…”) They recently went to India together. I jokingly asked if it was easier for them to be openly affectionate over there, since it’s pretty normal for guys to walk around holding hands and stuff in India, but they’ve never been so into public displays of affection. JB especially had a great time with his man’s uncle in Delhi–they spent about a week at his house. They did not share a bed, but the family was aware of their relationship.
I wonder if that has anything to do with post #1000.
The heart wants what the heart wants…and my dil beats faster for yengineers. Suh-woon. 😉
It differs for everyone. I’ve only dated one hedge fund guy and he was a doll; I sometimes regret not settling down with him. Now doctors…I have had nothing but awful experiences with…but I figure they’re not exactly crying over the loss of my unwanted affection, since there are dozens of women who LOVE that medical degree. To each her own. 😀
No vitriol at all — I come from a family of doctors, and I love them and am in awe of what they do. My point was that this stereotyping about subcultures between Desi men and women, is no good — even if your experience supports a stereotype, you have to realize that it’s not the rule across the board. And the one that especially irritates me is the Desi women as vapid and gold-digging.
Also, I mentioned that I’m now with an engineer — so the words of my youth have been eaten.
Re: 1109
Well, many of the later comments (particularly those leading up to #1000) were more focused on reaching that particular milestone than in actually carrying on a discussion. That said, while I have many friends and colleagues who are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, I must admit that outside of say, Pride parades, or gay and lesbian movie festivals, I haven’t run across too many who were brown (societal/familial pressure to remain in the closet?). In fact, I dare say I knew more brown people in South Asia who were gay than I do here in the States.
As an aside, I have always thought of Bangladesh as being rather conservative where non-hetero relationships were concerned. I was thus pleasantly surprised to find a letter in the Agony Aunt column of one of the major local dailies where a military officer was lamenting about his partner being moved to a different base. Even more surprisingly, the reply was sensitive and nuanced.
Did we just become the flavor of the month despite our oversupply?
Engineers are the new Doctors. 😀 Just like curly hair is the new straight…
(I’m writing it, I’m writing it…)
Maybe it’s the oversupply that’s doing it — we’re simply being overpowered! Can’t. Fight. The. Engineers.
Can I get that in writing to show my hairdresser the next time she breaks out the straightening iron?
Wow. Can you make any class-based observations about that? Like, do you see more openly gay people amongst the working classes or the privileged classes?
true, true – it’s always the most obviously obnoxious ones who create the negative stereotype. on the other hand, i know a lot of ‘non-mainstream’ types who are too quick to judge people based on their ambition to make money. but PindaUSA, are you an i-banker?
i just don’t know that i would have anything of substance to contribute. but i’ve been reading your exchanges with lizzie with much interest – just listening/reading about all the issues involved in the same-gender realm of desi dating.
You framed it as a freedom, which I fully don’t buy. You don’t feel very free when you make relationship choices more or less in the same fashion the opposite gender does, you get called out for being unsophisticated because you lack fancy words.
Since when have engineers ever had a leg up on the social scene? The cavemen who invented the wheel probably never got any, rather the caveman who funded & managed the ‘wheel project’ probably got it all night long.
I wonder if this statement should read, “I mentioned that I’m now with a great guy, despite him being an engineer”
Nawww. Believe me, as an artsy-fartsy type with limited spatial intelligence, I find the practical ability to make stuff work dead sexy.
I know, I know . . .I was surprised too. So much for my lifelong ambition to find some Desi spoken word poet revolutionary 🙂
Definitely want to hear more — like others, support the discussion, just don’t have much to add. I’m here to learn.
I’ll take your word for it. But I’ve written both C++ methods and Plot Point 2’s. The latter seems to interest the ladies a bit more.
HMF, you had me at C++ methods.
Unfortunately, you lost me at plot point 2.
Re: 1130
Harbeer, I don’t mean to be misleading, so please do keep in mind that the pool of brown people I knew back in the subcontinent is much larger than the one I know in the US. That said, I am afraid I can’t make any class-based observations since, largely by being a member of the privileged set, the pool of people I got to see most of were “my set.” Moreover, people in my set weren’t really “openly gay,” at least not in a way such that they could be identified/labelled as gay by people not close to them. And there was still considerable pressure on them to conform to societal expectations, e.g. marry someone of the opposite sex. Some were successful in avoiding this pressure; most were not, and had affairs on the side.
I’m sure these are rip roaringly funny, and not only for my benefit, but since I can’t view the clip, I’ll turn it into a guessing game. Is it the final scene from Jerry Mcguire. If so, then show me the post #1000
And to tie in with my point-of-the-day, I haven’t been reading the conversation at all, because it is lost among all the other 92.8 parallel conversations going on. So I am basically shut out mentally and I am back here only to check if Pondatti is still scratching her head and eyeing me suspiciously. I wish they would have their own spotlight; voice–perhaps, as invited guest bloggers–or that their story would be told through the eyes of someone already blogging. I would like to get to know their stories and be aware of their experiences, but in the current format, it is impossible for me.
The potential to do something like this, is what a popular blog space can offer that a regular media outlet cannot.
yup. have been an i-banker since 2001….
HMF, sorry, I forgot you are working in the People’s Republic of China. It is what you speak of. However, mere words cannot convey the piercing eyes, the earnestly halting delivery, and the teardrops poised on the edge of Tom’s eyes when he delivers his eloquent soliloquy.
Have you tried youtube proxies such as this?
I do believe that I have just witnessed the birth of SM’s newest inside joke, wherein the term post #1000 becomes slang for “money”, “cash” or “half and half”.
It’s almost as good as the Scythian/Lemurian drama. 😉
Everytime I read that, I think of Puliogre as a pindi Punjabi dude.And now that we know he is an i-banker, is it iPinda now?
Malathi, here’s a tip: Press Ctrl+F, then enter “lizzie” as your search term. Sit back and listen (read “read”). Repeat for “delirium.”
go for it….although im not a punjabi dude. im an east coast tam brahm banker from upstate new york. (if that helps you figure out a mental image).
Yeah, I kinda figured that much. Puliodhrai is not something I would expect in the pind – I assume thats where that came from?
bingo…is that how thats spelt?
You tell me, I am the pindi here, remember.
I just know how to make it and eat it. Ill leave the spelling to the tam brahms from tam…
Are the “i-bankers” as identically vapid as we may think? Probably not. Are we “outside the mainstream”ers as singularly unique as we might like to think? Again, probably not.)
Right, exactly. I have to remind myself of these questions and shift my attitude a bit every time I find myself regressing into a more judgmental mindset.
I think one of the hardest parts of moving towards meaningful conversations with people outside of your subgroup/social circle is figuring out how to overcome the initial stereotypes/projections, but also the geographic distance. At least in the Bay, I do feel like there is a “scene” for different folks based on location, which can be a bit frustrating. I suppose that’s another good argument for a meetup, though 🙂
Word.
I think part of my suspicion, if you will, towards i-bankers/doctors/lawyers/engineers/whatever other stereotypical desi job began in high school or college, where I knew so many people pursuing those professions for one of two reasons: parental pressure or money. I have put up a hell of a fight against my parents to follow my passions and have never been motivated by money to do anything. It isn’t that I think all people in the world should disobey their parents or turn a blind eye to salary, but, the fact that I did is very integral to my world view and the way I conduct my life. When I was younger, I just don’t think I respected people who were so willing to just do whatever job their parents wanted them to do. Several years out of college, it is amazing to see that none of my doctor, consultant or lawyer friends are happy with their jobs or lives in general, whereas my friends and I who pursued less desiriffic jobs (activists, teachers, artists, etc.) are euphoric in comparison. The other part of this equation has to do with compatibility and relatability. Generally speaking, my “traditional” career friends and acquaintances had very different childhood and even HS/college experiences than I did. I think this is what I referred to in my very first post — I was, hmmm, very precocious when it came to all activities that would elicit a shocked “chee-chee!” from any desi parent. Although, for example, I don’t (ab)use any illegal substances now and certainly don’t include substance use on My Future Mate checklist, I find that more straight-laced people (i.e. those more likely to pursue a traditional career) or the generally unaware just don’t know how to relate to me. I have pretty unique views on sex and sexuality, and those definitely don’t go over well with the more traditional-minded folks I’ve met. [Keep in mind these are views I formed when younger. Doctors and i-bankers party harder than anyone I know, it’s just that they started about 10 years after I did. And I don’t mean to imply that being a “party girl” is some important part of my identity. Ugh. This is hard.] So, I guess it isn’t that I hate or disrespect people with traditional jobs, but I do have serious doubts about our compatibility based on the assumed events that got us to where we are now and how that informs our personalities and choices now. Obviously I have to get to know someone before really deciding — and right now I’m 0 for 10 when it comes to dates with desi mainstream professionals. On desi dating sites, I feel like I read so many profiles from traditional professionals that are like “oh if I did it over again, I would have been a filmmaker” or “I’m just doing this and pursuing my screenwriting passion on the side …” I always find myself rolling my eyes and just wishing they would either not qualify what they do now (hey, if you want to be a doc, do it and love it!) or just have the guts to pursue their dreams 100%. (Also, in my experience around large groups of i-bankers/consultants/lawyers etc. — less so with docs — the slurs (mostly racist and homophobic) that fly in that crowd would never, EVER be heard in my crowd. So there’s that, too.) /generalizations
HEY! People who are hand-coding “blockquote”! If you don’t spell that properly, it won’t work. 🙂 I fixed two of you (one of you omitted “l”, the other “k”)!
interesting. my dad wanted me to be a doctor, so i did pre-med in college. i-banking was my way of doing something i enjoyed and not what dad wanted!!!!