Whoa– is dating White not right?

this is why i only date brown.JPG

…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:

Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.

If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.

So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.

Or are they?

I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.

The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:

hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]

Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.

Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.

Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:

Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]

Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.

SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.

To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:

If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.

I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)

and the best one, ever,

Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.

And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.

Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that

“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.

Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”

I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.

“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”

“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”

“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”

“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”

“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”

“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“

“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”

“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”

“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”

“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”

All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:

“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”

“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀

I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).

The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).

There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.

Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?

1,347 thoughts on “Whoa– is dating White not right?

  1. Y’all Could you please identify yourself desi/non-desi, male/female, gay/straight as early as possible in a comment, pleeeeeeez? Otherwise, its a little complicated. Just saying.

  2. ak,

    I absolutely have been exposed to South Asian culture: my extended family was very close, my parents’ friends were all South Asian, etc. Like you, however, my day-to-day life had very little “Desi-ness” in it. When I got to college, I took a much more significant curiosity/pride in my ethnicity, Indian history, and my religion, as my parents never really taught my brother and me about Hinduism. (One thing I think is interesting is how little S. Asians my age know about Indian history, their religion, etc. but I digress…) I admit the wording in my first comment wasn’t perfectly PC. Whatever. Like you, I can’t relate to every person I meet. I don’t think I consciously rule out friendship/dating with every South Asians I meet just because they are South Asian. We are acquainted, we may have a pleasant conversation (that always somehow involves overbearing parents), and then we go our separate ways, not really interested in being anything more than acquaintances.

    for instance, you say you are not really desi because of your background
    i find it odd that you think of yourself as non-desi

    I never said anything about not really being Desi. I try not to label myself or others. I’d thank you to not put words in my mouth. To answer your questions about knowing other South Asians with the same background as me, I have met a couple of them and they are nice people. So does that mean I have to date them exclusively? I doubt it.

  3. what’s the matter, neale – are you trying to narrow the SM pool to potential partners of your specific preference? 😉

  4. For what it’s worth, I have not met many single desi women who share my counter-cultural values and alternative lifestyle.

    well, i know a brown dude who is ‘in the closet’ about being an atheist cuz he thinks it’ll hurt his chances with the ladies.

    Yeah, I’ve had a lot of desis (including my own mother!) make uh, subtle digs towards my “too dark” complexion…

    lucky for you that the digs are subtle 🙂

  5. what timing — just finished reading an article in a South Asian glossy. An interesting point made by the writer is why do we see Indian on screen heroines end up with white boys over the desi ones? They reference Bend it like Beckham, Americanizing Shelley, Mistress of Spices…is it a sign of the times?

  6. A chirpy white woman I once met at an airport lounge said to me, “I don’t care about race when it comes to dating. It’s all about chemistry.” Smug in her liberal credentials, she didn’t understand that color-blind attraction is a racial privilege. Even as an increasing number of folks of color find love and companionship outside our community, it’s a luxury we simply can’t afford. Whomever we love — and of whatever hue or ethnicity — our desire has to run a treacherous course fraught with fear, self-hatred and anger.

    Do not agree!

    How is color blind love a racial privilege? And for whom? Whites? What exactly is “privileged” about going non-white? Think whites don’t take flak from their families/friends for this? Think again.

  7. well, i know a brown dude who is ‘in the closet’ about being an atheist cuz he thinks it’ll hurt his chances with the ladies.

    Oh GAWD! (Sorry, had to be said.)

  8. mfunnierthenyou

    I grew up in what is basically a farm town in Illinois, so I can relate to the “I have nothing in common with Indian people” view, but that has changed, although I still have little in common with most Indian’s.

    So, what is it in your view, that make’s your interest in life so much different then say your average Indian’s?

  9. ak,

    potential partners of your specific preference? 😉

    For that we’d have to go into the whole bear/twink, chaser/chub , cut/uncut part of the application form.

  10. I’m a brown man who grew up around white folks, and always thought I would marry a brown woman. BUT … I gotta tell you, I get so little love from brown women that I’m starting to rethink this. For one thing, the brown women I have met at social events are far more materialistic. They hear your profession, infer your salary, and you can see them grow disinterested. A few minutes later they make a polite excuse, and take off. And that’s if you can get them to chat in the first place. For all that I hear brown women grouse about brown men not having the balls to come and talk to them at a social mixer, I get fewer brown women making eye contact with me or smiling, or even having body language which says “come join the conversation” (as opposed to women standing toe to toe in a circle, only letting in people they already know) than I do women of other races.

    Now maybe this has to do with the women I’m meeting lately. I’m not claiming this is a random sample, it’s simply brown women in their late 20s and early 30s that I encounter at social events – cocktail parties, mixers, speed dating, etc – that are the kinds of places where single men and women show up with some intent to talk to each other. And I’ve got to say, these women are cookie cutter conservative – not politically, but in terms of taking a chance. So they’re complaining, but what they really want is for the doctor or I-banker with the $300 haircut to come talk to them, but they’re not so into even chatting with somebody else.

    And no, that doesn’t happen with other races. I remember one party a few weeks ago where I said hello to a brown girl who said hello back to me, and then stepped around me and kept going. [After she did that, I did notice she was married, but still.] Same party, I said hello to a cute African-American who didn’t know me, and we had a pleasant conversation.

    So yeah, the women I’m meeting are looking for something very specific, very conventional, and that’s it. And if you’ve done something different in your life, and you don’t meet a brown woman when you (and they) are younger, it’s a lot more difficult.

    So why not date outside the community more? The problem is that while non-brown women might be far more willing to appreciate me as an individual, they’re going to have a harder time relating to me as a member of my family, and my community. And I would like both.

  11. well, i know a brown dude who is ‘in the closet’ about being an atheist cuz he thinks it’ll hurt his chances with the ladies.

    haha.. I think being an atheist is a positive. But then again I am going to hell so what do I know!

  12. I was at a wedding of one of my cousins. I was sitting next to an uncle who was talking about how the grooms side were a different type of Brahmin to us, I was like, “flipping heck uncle, even this is an issue??”, and he was like, “just so you know”. Wonder what would have happened if my cousin bought home a Black Muslim?

    We in the west are different kinds of desi’s from desi’s in south asia. So relating to them would be different, but then that can be the same for a desi born in London and a desi born in New York, right?

    My sister refuses to marry someone from India. The chances of her meeting many desi’s from India are slim, getting to know them are even less, still weird (to me) how she can be so quickly dismissive.

    I feel that this issue you have to be 100% selfish, not it the way “screw what anyone else thinks” but know what makes you happy because ultimately you are hopefully with this person for the rest of your life. You got to be colour blind, or you may miss out on your best friend, (love well that comes after marriage! :- p

  13. p.s. I’ve seen JoAT defend the fact that many women take salary heavily into account. That’s precisely my point.

  14. Now maybe this has to do with the women I’m meeting lately.

    So Anna, you mentioned Sepia Destiny the other day? Methinks there may be some demand for it 😉

  15. I never said anything about not really being Desi. I try not to label myself or others. I’d thank you to not put words in my mouth.

    my apologies. you’re right. i should not have done that.

    To answer your questions about knowing other South Asians with the same background as me, I have met a couple of them and they are nice people. So does that mean I have to date them exclusively? I doubt it.

    no, not at all. in fact, i would be at least one person at SM to advise you not to! but you said :

    I’ve never been attracted to Desis

    it appears, from those words, that you date non-desis exclusively. am i understanding the wording correctly?

    I just can’t relate to Indians as well as I can to people of other races.
    Actually when I think about it, it’s hard for me to open up to my Asian friend and to my Egyptian friend, too. There are undoubtedly these common beliefs and values held in the Asian/South Asian community that I don’t share.

    why undoubtedly? this statement makes me think that you are making a categorical assumption that all desis necessarily have certain common beliefs that prevent you from sharing, but you, also a desi, do not have such beliefs. what i am getting at is that from your wording, there is a presumption that most/all other desis are a certain way, and will never think similarly enough as you. again, i have to say, if you, as a desi, have a different sort of mentality than what you presume to be a desi mentality, aren’t there are others out there, too? going by that logic, other desi people who share your POV might assume that because you are desi, they cannot sustain any meaningful relationship with you (romantic or otherwise) because you think like ‘most’ desis. i think 2nd-gen desis are far too varied so as to defy any assumptions of substantial cohesive thinking.

    on the other hand, your most recent comment suggests that you do consider it, but just haven’t found a desi that you’re interested in dating. i.e. the not attracted to desi is not physical, but more reflective of individual interactions?

  16. 60:

    but what they really want is for the doctor or I-banker with the $300 haircut to come talk to them


    I thought that was just Divya! (kidding!)

  17. p.s. I’ve seen JoAT defend the fact that many women take salary heavily into account. That’s precisely my point.

    sure, sure, but dudes take fugly into account. sometimes the world is zero sum, it just doesn’t look like it when you’re getting the shaft (hint: lots of people are getting the shaft, though they are simultaneously shafting others. everyboy plays the fools.

  18. I’ve been thinking about this issue of mixed relationships for a while now, and yet now, with ANNA so bluntly asking about it, my mind blanks.

    But I have a few questions and comments, culled from my own experiences:

    • Leaving aside the issue of white-specificity, what counts as multiethnic/racial/cultural? I’m Sri Lankan and Muslim and to my parents it would be a mixed relationship (i used the word mixed, because i can’t think of a more a general word) if i were to marry a Pakistani Muslim, for example. And yet, to someone who saw us walking together on the street, we’d be just two brown kids, nothing special.

    • At my alma mater, I was struck by how Indian girls (and I use the word Indian and not brown, because a lot of them identified as being Indian by origin, even if they’d lived in places as varied as Tanzania and Toronto) looked the same. And I don’t mean this in the racist sense of all brown/black/asian people being interchangeable, but in the sense of these young women going out of their way to wear the same clothes, style their hair the exact same way. They were gorgeous, yes, this group of girls who defined brown femininity on campus, but it was cloying, too, the way they all strove towards this common ideal of fly-away hair svelteness. The nature of my alma mater has a lot to do with it (Queen’s), being a university known for its elitism and pretentiousness (and majority white population, despite being a mere 3 hours away from Toronto). I got the sense that these girls were exotifying themselves, because they felt it was demanded of them. They didn’t think brown punk rockers, for instance, could compete with American Eagle-esque blondes. And yet there were brown punk rockers on campus. There were brown lesbians, too. There were ungraceful brown girls who refused to wear Lululemon and Uggs galore. And it was these brown girls – these women who were dismissed as minorities within a minority – who felt most acutely the sense of self-denigration that was being acted out by superficial performances of the /real/ brown girls. I need to think a bit more about the idea of whiteness that was caught up in these performances, but I know that was there, too, in the sense of: whom were these girls performing for? Who benefitted from this the most? How did these performances contribute to Queen’s presentation of itself as a upper-class (read: white) university?

    • Thanks, razib, for those links. Your excerpts suggest they will avoid romanticising the politics of choosing who we love.

  19. So Anna, you mentioned Sepia Destiny the other day? Methinks there may be some demand for it 😉

    Isn’t that what facebook is for?

  20. a model perhaps…imagine a

    preference function = a1x1 + a2x2 … an*xn

    where

    an = the ath weight for xn, the xth parameter. the parameters can be a list of characters, e.g., fugliness, salary, religion, race, region, nationality, etc. the values of the x’s can be from negative infinite to positive infinite, measured in standard deviation units from the average (assume normal distributions, i know, not real, salary exhibits strong kurtosis, right?). the a’s define the weight of the parameter. e.g., for most people religion is probably more important than religion, and for men fugliness is probably more important than salary. you can generate a preference value for a bunch of people based on parameters. if someone is very “negative” on one parameter, they might be able to “make it up” on the others, depending on the magnitude of the negative deviation from the average and the weight of the parameter. the points is, never say never. but, most people will date only a small pool of people in our lives (small = less than 100 non-trivial significant others), so our experience might seem a bit more black & white because we never realize or encounter that person who “goes against type” but still wins us over. with some people they do meet that person, and so their world is rocked and they learn something new about themselves.

  21. Worst is when people talk about “Levels”, “she is not on my level because she does not have a degree” or “I am a doctor, so I cannot marry him, he has a crappy job”. To me that’s insane!

    Did Warren Beatty get it right by saying we should all just have a Massive Orgy, so future generations end up the same colour?? 😉 may not stop the level issue, but could be a lot of fun. 🙂

  22. Worst is when people talk about “Levels”, “she is not on my level because she does not have a degree” or “I am a doctor, so I cannot marry him, he has a crappy job”. To me that’s insane!

    but that’s human. to be extreme or vocal about this is crass, but everyone sizes other people up. degrees and salary and hotitude do not make the man or woman, but they tell you something about them, and depending on what priorities exist in your life they do likely have some value. let’s keep it real.

    (the robotic obsession with number of years of education, etc., is a bit childish and unsubtle, but it derives from real human considerations of compatibility).

  23. Razib – my frustration is with how narrowly I’ve seen brown women apply their preference function. I’m tall and educated, but not in a high paying profession. That’s enough to get vetoed.

  24. fathima, i’m not sure the class issues resonate much with americo-brownz who dominate SM demographically. there seems more variation in brownz in terms of class in canada from what i have seen statistically than in the USA. most american brown girls who are trying to be upper middle class preppy sorority girls are just that by upbringing and background.

  25. Did Warren Beatty get it right by saying we should all just have a Massive Orgy, so future generations end up the same colour?? 😉 may not stop the level issue, but could be a lot of fun. 🙂

    that will not happen, genetics is discrete. the expectation might be x, but there will be non-trivial deviation from x.

  26. “never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too”

    Fact: Desis are not considered caucasians by the US Census Bureau.

    It is also a fact that desis living outside south asia have the lowest rates of intermarriage of any major race. In the UK where there are large numbers of second generation desis, the intermarriage rates of both male and fremale desis with the native whites is in the low single digits.

  27. I’ve read posts on this site a number of times, but this is my first comment because it’s an issue close to my heart so bear with me…Growing up in South Africa, in an Indian settlement (back in the days of apartheid, today it still remains 90% Indian, and my parents and entire family remain there) meant that my world consisted of Indian people (well nth generation Indian anyway!), some black, some coloured, but 95% Indian. All through high school, Indian guys were all I knew, all I dated – although I got my share of “Are you 100% Indian? Cos there must be some coloured in you…” All I can say is, it must be the unruly hair!!!

    After high school I left for uni, and went to a previously “whites only” institution that still consisted of 85% whites. My family is very liberal (compared to others I’ve encountered!), hurt by the apartheid era yes, those scars will never fully heal, but my parents have always let me make up my own mind about the way I feel about things (and I will be forever grateful). Yes, I encountered racism (blatant and to my face for the first time in my life really), but I chose to not tar entire races with the same awful brush, and saw it as coming from the individual only. As a result, my friends from uni are a colourful bunch, white, black, Indian, coloured. However, the problem I had with the majority of Indians on campus was that they tended to stick together, noone “else” allowed in, and if you weren’t that way (i.e. your friends included non-Indians) you were excluded too. They were taking on the prejudices of our parents’ (and grandparents’ etc.) generations, not something I was likely to do. A few of us “exiled” Indians found each other and remain firm friends.

    So the long and short of it was that I have dated and still date non-Indian guys – and I see nothing wrong with this. I don’t exclusively date non-Indians as a rule, however I hardly ever meet any Indian guys in my line of work or where I play or where I currently live (in another part of SA). If I did, I’d definitely date one! I’d like to think that the stares at “mixed couples” and the snide, awful comments would stop soon (but I doubt it’s likely to happen in my lifetime!). I’ve found that it’s both Indians and non-Indians alike that have a problem with inter-racial dating though. This issue in SA is a touchy one, fraught with dark, painful emotions, with the wounds from apartheid still open and seeping. So the comments, remarks, stares, glares, for me hurts the most when it comes from Indians – I don’t want them to think I’m “betraying my people”, “fraternising with the enemy”, or deliberately trying to hurt them in some way, but I also refuse to give in to the old way of thinking, of us and them. I refuse to believe that we can’t all learn to see past the skin tone. Yes the cultures are different, but even within the Indian population cultures are different, languages are different, religions are different, ways of life are different. I have been made to feel ashamed of my choices a number of times. Luckily I’m stronger than that, I know me and I don’t need to explain it to you.

    I just think that people shouldn’t take these things personally – if I date a non-Indian, it’s because I want to, because I’m attracted to him, because I think he’s funny and articulate and whatever. If you don’t want to date a non-Indian, don’t! If you don’t find them attractive, you don’t! But don’t condemn those that do to lives filled with self-doubt, with questions, with shame for something they shouldn’t be ashamed of. Even those people that exclusively date white men/women, isn’t that their decision to make? Same as if you choose to date exclusively Indian men/women. Besides, as an Indian, why would you be interested in even trying to date an Indian who won’t date within his own race? That’s his/her decision, which makes it part of his/her personality – so chances are, you won’t really like him/her anyway!!

    All I’m saying is, each to his own – and embracing another culture does not mean losing the grip on your own!

  28. Razib – my frustration is with how narrowly I’ve seen brown women apply their preference function. I’m tall and educated, but not in a high paying profession. That’s enough to get vetoed.

    sure, but it isn’t a brown thing. your experience with brownz is obviously diff. than non-brownz, but sometimes we see things through a subjective lens (i’m assuming a priori you have more of an interest in brownz so you probably note disses more closely?). there is a particular subculture in americo-brownz which prioritizes “engineer/doctor” (and ibanker, etc.). and that sucks (speaking as a non-engineer & non-doctor). but on the flip side as a guy is that you probably have had to deal a lot less with “i wish you weren’t so kala” than brown women.

  29. Razib, fair point, I am not saying it is not important; many work their arses off to get where they are. Realty is people (meaning many of my elder cousin sisters) have dismissed many hard working, well paid men who are genuinely good guys, because their jobs held no status. Because it happens and it is reality does not stop it from being barmy.

  30. I get fewer brown women making eye contact with me or smiling, or even having body language which says “come join the conversation” than I do women of other races.

    looking for melanin… – that’s me. but not for any anti-brown stance – only because sometimes i’m socially incompetent and act so reserved to the extent of appearing a bitch, unless i am somewhat sure the other person is interested (classic fear of rejection) it’s gotten much better in the last several years – i’m less afraid to ask men out, buy them a drink etc, but it manifests itself every once in a while. i’m working on it…

    Worst is when people talk about “Levels”, “she is not on my level because she does not have a degree

    one of my friends’ bfs actually said this to her face (three times, no less) and they ended up getting married.

    but that’s human. to be extreme or vocal about this is crass, but everyone sizes other people up

    true. but it’s the judgment that comes with it that is the worst. in a romantic relationship, i think there are a lot of such variables that people look at for what kind of person will fit into their lives. but you can do it in such a way that says, i respect who you are, but you’re just not the partner for me. some people just plain outright think others are not ‘worthy’ of them based on these variables.

  31. OK–I’ll admit it, since everyone else here is so open-minded–it does bother me a bit when I see a hot Desi with a white guy– I’ve never been able to do as “well” (in a conventional SES sense–looks,$$,education) with white girls, so I don’t want the Desis disappearing on me–there–I said it!

    As a white girl, I’m kind of terrified to delurk on this thread 😉 But I really do feel for this comment – when I lived in Japan I knew white boys who ran wild with their Asian fetishes (and I am not putting all white guy/Asian woman relationships in this box, but it happened). From my perspective, I found myself thinking things like “What an asshole, that guy just wants a submissive geisha/China doll, and she’s a fool for not realizing it.” Mind you I’m really not proud of that, because in some respects it’s only one step away from “I’m too much woman for you to handle!”

    I mean that was only one year out of my life, so I hope that didn’t come off as a “poor me” story, because it really wasn’t. I guess I just wanted to introduce this aspect into the discussion — without painting a huge brush — that I have heard some white men openly express a preference for Asian wives because basically, “they know their place,” unlike Western white women, who are uppity, castrating, selfish loudmouths (because ya know… Asian women NEVER have minds of their own /sarcasm). (Please note that I’m now using a general term “Asian” which can include South and East Asians) It’s ugly, but it happens. Even though I feel ridiculous asserting any “dibs” over any race of men, including my own, I’d be lying if I said that didn’t mess with my sense of femininity on some level. In addition to feeling sorry for the Asian women who have to deal with these creeps!

    Again, I hope it’s clear I’m only talking about one particular subset of all white guy/Asian woman relationships, because I’ve known plenty that were not like that at all. And for that matter, it’s really not even my business what your relationship is based on as long as you’re both happy. Apologies in advance if I’ve offended anyone.

    Overall I really do agree with this:

    Ladies (and men), work on yourselves first, then everything else will fall automatically in line.

  32. All I’m saying is, each to his own – and embracing another culture does not mean losing the grip on your own!

    this is certainly true in generation 1, but the problem of course is “the children.” then the choices need to be made, and culture is not like genetics, you (and your partner and the kids) pick and choose what gets passed on. sometimes some aspects of one culture overrule/dominate aspects of another. e.g., in south africa the most coloreds speak afrikans, are identified with the dutch reformed church, etc. the traditions of their white ancestors, not their khoisan, bantu, malay (except for the cape malays) and indian ones. myself, i don’t care about “cultural continuity” and am a pretty self-absorbed person, so “out-marrying” isn’t something i feel any guilt about, but i’ve turned my back on my family’s religion with no regrets so i’ll be happy that my kids “lost something.” it isn’t the same for other people.

  33. mary, that dynamic is certainly true (“me wants submissive asian”). the only issue is that sometimes ethnic activists want to reduce all those relationships (see chaudery’s essay above) to that dynamic. the world being what it is power dynamics will always exist, but it really is insulting to individuals to reduce their whole being as an instrument for some group cultural dynamic.

  34. Personally, I blame Gurinder Chadha 😉

  35. I confess I hate seeing a hot desi man with white chicks, especially if the white chick is not hot (as is the case all too often). I also confess I enjoy shooting the occasional sneer at such chicks, especially if the guy’s really hot. Mea culpa.

    That said, I’ve only had a few brown dates and all of my serious relationships have been with whites. I think this is partly a numbers issue, but also something else. Many young minorities feel the need to integrate, and rebel against their parents, community. I remember thinking, when I was in my late teens, early twenties, that dating a desi guy was too easy, too dull, no challenge, and would fit exactly into what was expected of me, not only by my parents and community, but the larger community. No one wants to do exactly what they’re expected to. Now that I’m in my thirties, I’d love to do what I’m expected to – but only white and black guys ask me out. There are hardly any desi guys around (I’m in the arts, and fatally non-materialistic – maybe that’s why).

  36. From my perspective, I found myself thinking things like “What an asshole, that guy just wants a submissive geisha/China doll, and she’s a fool for not realizing it.” Mind you I’m really not proud of that, because in some respects it’s only one step away from “I’m too much woman for you to handle!”

    Mary, this is an attitude/stereotype you come across alot when black women voice their views on black men dating white women also – “you can’t handle a strong black woman so you have to run to a weak white woman who will put up with your sh*t.” Which I always thought was kind of funny taking into consideration some people think white women are “too strong” and that is why they run to Asian women, in line with your thoughts and comments above during your stay in Japan.

    This summer the movie DIARY OF A TIRED BLACK MAN will be released which explores these dynamics.

  37. I’m the product of a mixed marriage, so I am really getting a kick out of these replies…

  38. Comment #60, on brown girls’ attitudes towards brown men: “So they’re complaining, but what they really want is for the doctor or I-banker with the $300 haircut to come talk to them, but they’re not so into even chatting with somebody else.”

    WHAT?? this is exactly the way i would describe the attitude i get from brown men, and it’s been that way my whole life.

    prior to the age of ~20, i considered myself an “equal opportunity dater.” my first boyfriend was black, i had crushes on and hookups with several brown men, and all my very serious boyfriends have been white. i really never thought about skin color/brown-ness as a factor in dating until i started being rejected because of it. i’ve written about this before on SM, but here goes again. in HS (where there were a number of desis) and college, i felt completely ostracized by the desi community. i was considered too “bad” or “wild” for them in high school, and in college, i didn’t fit the mold of the typical pretty indian girl, which was what they wanted. the popular desi girls had long, straight hair, were in sororities, were on a professional track, and had a closetful of expensive lehengas to wear to all formal occasions. (my kanjeevaram saris weren’t going to cut it, being considered too south indian — aka lame — in a campus dominated by n. indians. but i have already commented about that.) mind you, plenty of these boys wanted to make out with me, they just didn’t think i was girlfriend material — and yes, they told me so. on top of being a party girl, i had no designs to become a doctor/lawyer/engineer/consultant/i-banker, so not only was i different, but i was also going to be poor and have a job their parents wouldn’t approve of. i really hate to talk about these things in terms of “mainstream” and “non-mainstream” (or alterna-desi, as it’s been described on here), but i find that the same patterns hold true for each group. to the mainstream desis, i’m oversexed, have the wrong job, don’t fit a cookie-cutter fashion mold, and we just don’t click. (to be fair, i dislike them as much as they dislike me — i find them to be uncultured lemmings). the non-mainstream desis are a tougher nut to crack — i’m either too conservative for their tastes, or they claim that they aren’t attracted to brown women. what the hell is a girl to do??

    anyway, because of this perceived rejection, i found myself being very closed off to dating brown guys for the last few years. i would even go so far to say that i would only exclusively date white men, because i felt like i could relate to them best. i think i continue to have a mistrust of desi men because now, in my late 20s, i am becoming reacquainted with some of these college boys who once rejected me but now are suddenly “cooler” and see my virtues. (i’m sorry, i hate to use words like “cool” or “mainstream” but i just don’t know how else to describe the situation; i can clarify if anyone is offended). i have little patience for posers and sycophants.

    despite all this, i am now actively trying to date desi men and boy, it is not going well. i know there are men of other races who would be really excited to learn about my culture, but i really want to be with someone who just gets it. most people in my family doesn’t speak english, and it would be great to marry someone who could really be a part of my family and communicate with them. although i have always been socially ostracized by most desis, i am super in touch with my culture and would like to pass that on with a partner. i feel like all the guys on the dating sites are the typical conservative guys i don’t click with, and the ones i would click with are already happily dating some non-desi girl. are there really no similar desi guys out there? i already know the answer to that — my desi guy friends are similar to me but most are gay and the others are taken. even my mom is starting to concede that i should start casting my net wider and date some non-desi guys, lest i am single for another ten years.

  39. when I lived in Japan I knew white boys who ran wild with their Asian fetishes (and I am not putting all white guy/Asian woman relationships in this box, but it happened). From my perspective, I found myself thinking things like “What an asshole, that guy just wants a submissive geisha/China doll, and she’s a fool for not realizing it.” Mind you I’m really not proud of that, because in some respects it’s only one step away from “I’m too much woman for you to handle!”

    So now you understand how black women feel about black men with white fetishes. Consider it a learning experience.

  40. I confess I hate seeing a hot desi man with white chicks, especially if the white chick is not hot (as is the case all too often). I also confess I enjoy shooting the occasional sneer at such chicks, especially if the guy’s really hot. Mea culpa.

    i just want to point out that to some extent hotitude is an a fixed parameter. the conventional response to resent more when it is a hot brown with a fug white (this is a common issue, just replace brown & white with whatever) shows that it isn’t just race.

  41. Hey Mary – I think there are more ballbusters among South Asian women than among all other races combined. Even in India, the grannies are little terrors. I doubt the demure little South Asian is a prevalent stereotype among younger non-South Asian men (it hasn’t been among any of my bfs). I do have to say that I’ve been hit on by a lot of disgusting old white creeps who might harbour such stereotypes.

  42. This summer the movie DIARY OF A TIRED BLACK MAN will be released which explores these dynamics.

    T-hype!

  43. I confess I hate seeing a hot desi man with white chicks, especially if the white chick is not hot (as is the case all too often). I also confess I enjoy shooting the occasional sneer at such chicks, especially if the guy’s really hot. Mea culpa.

    DQ, I find this attitude so disparaging towards women. My god, for centuries we have toiled, laboured, fought and clawed our way to a position of being respected for who we are and not what we look like just to have all that dismantled by other women? Aren’t we supposed to stick together? Isn’t there enough pressure from the male dominated media and ad industry? Do we need pressure from other ordinary women just like ourselves who are supposed to be our sisters? Whatever happened to female solidarity?

  44. there seems more variation in brownz in terms of class in canada from what i have seen statistically than in the USA. most american brown girls who are trying to be upper middle class preppy sorority girls are just that by upbringing and background. (

    razib: granted, i don’t know about class issues in US, but the thing i can say about Queen’s is that the number of kids (brown or not) who could actually afford to live the lifestyle that was so popular was surprisingly small. again, i feel like most kids (brown or not) felt pressured to play into the dominant perception of Queen’s. and this had a definite impact, specifically, on how brown girls acted out attractiveness and therefore how they acted how brownness.

  45. ShallowThinker, For one thing, I don’t think there exists an “average Indian,” but I’ll humor you, just this once: I’m gay. Don’t tell my parents.

    ak,

    You’re right about the fact that there does not exist a laundry list of acceptable values and beliefs that only the Asian/ South Asian community shares. If anyone should believe that, I should, right? I only irrationally anticipate the existence of one. I think it’s a dispositional flaw and I’m working on it. And as I said, my first comment was poorly worded. Contrary to what I said in my last comment, I admit I have met South Asians I’m interested in dating, but they always have a bf. Go figure.

  46. Did Warren Beatty get it right by saying we should all just have a Massive Orgy, so future generations end up the same colour??

    Actually, what Senator Bulworth said was:

    We need a voluntary, free-spirited, compatible, open ended program of procreative racial deconstruction. Everybody just gotta keep fucking everybody till we’re all the same color.

    This has been a great discussion, and thanks all round, but I thought the exact quote would inject some levity 🙂

    Of course, it won’t work, and thanks for nailing that, Razib. Though I used to think it would if we do it long enough (as Bulworth also says in that ‘interview’)

    No, phenotypic differences will exist long into the future, but there’s no need to make our situation worse through our individual actions, if we’re reinforcing a classist, racist status quo by not examining our individual choices more carefully.

  47. Whatever happened to female solidarity?

    LOL. where is this thing called female solidarity? i’ve met anyone who has met it 😉 i think thousands of years of male patriarchy are testament towards its illusiveness.

    more seriously, we are all bundles of different identities. people emphasize different aspects at different times in different situations. i remember once reading an article about a black man in japan during the 1970s. he was walking down the street and people were looking at him strangely, and all of a sudden he saw a white guy across the street waving at him frantically. the guy ran across the street pushing his way through a crowd or two, and with a broad smile and a southern accent asked, “you’re from america, right? so am i!!!” and all of a sudden the black man realized how much context matters, that all of a sudden a good ole boy saw him as a “brother,” someone familiar with whom one could relate.