…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
If I was a desi guy in the SF area, this is the point in the thread where I’d be feeling pretty Pankajed. Thankfully, I can take refuge in my non-Bay-areaness so I can continue to feed my narcissistic illusions of grandeur, charm, and savvy.
I’m expecting big things of SFGirl, Camille, Satya, et. al. @ the SF Meetup.
Tell me about it 😉
Or maybe we are not the bay area desi man’s type.
oh the pressure!
…the home stretch to quad-digits. keep hope alive!
Sorry Rahul! I didn’t mean that there are not wonderful desi guys in the Bay — there are. That said, there are more women than men, and once you start circulating in smaller circles (e.g. the nonprofit/prog sector), most folks have already paired up and are in committed relationships. I’ve definitely had more success with non-desi guys, but I think this is in part a product of my age, as well (I’m usually the youngest person in my group of friends or among my work colleagues, and the age gap is usually substantial enough to pose kind of a dilemma in dating).
Vinod, I’m sorry I’m going to be missing y’all. I’m in the Bay this weekend, but relocated to CT about 6 weeks ago, so I’ll be at the NYC meetup. Actually, now I’m feeling intensely anxious because I worry that I have (falsely) set myself up as some kind of pristine amazing woman to date, or as some obnoxious, hateful harpy!
Talk about being Pankajed — I just got et al’d!
Have any of you ever wondered if your search for a mate is nothing but an exercise in pure narcissism? Every time I try to contemplate what I do or do not want in a partner, I realize that I’m always dreaming up the male version of myself (albeit somewhat perfected).
Camille –
FALSE.
Now THIS sounds like the real constraint — and is likely to be true in many places beyond just SF. Potential solution – there are many other circles – even within SF.
That map was astounding, never would have thought it.
You are close to personal landmark as well. Just a few shy of century. I am not telling how many. You will have to count yourself. I will give you a hint. Roughly 10.69459757442%. Well played.
I’m going on record right now as saying that I’m gunning to be the 1000th commenter on this thread…it’s on! So keep talking, people. Trolls welcome.
I’m going on record right now as saying that I’m gunning to be the 1000th commenter on this thread…it’s on! So keep talking, people. Trolls welcome.
we’ll see about that….
I think that there is something valid in what pankaj is trying to say. developmental gaps due seem to exist. Another aspect of developmental delay can be attributed to circumsicion habits amongst indians. growing up i knew Indian males, including myself who had issues with the fact that they were not circumcised. Personally, I felt normal around indian women who accepted me on some level where I feel that they understood me and would not react in a negative way in the event that they came accross my penis. I feel that there is some penis anxiety if you will that exists amongst indian boys. I even feeel that many of them hold extra weight to hold on to their sexualities. If indian boys are mistreated or discriminated against by non-indian girls, they will be less likely to pursue non-indian women. in that respect, due to circumcision customs – boys may be delayed in a non-indian community. girls do not have to deal with that issue. what are your thoughts. I have come to call these pudgy south asians – brown peanut m&m’s :).
Personally, I remember at camp growing up there was this other indian kid there who refused to shower without a bathing suit on. personally, I feel that I really have to connect with someone in order to feel comfortable seeing that part of my body. I have even contemplated having it taken off, you know the foreskin. I bet if I did my self esteem would go through the roof. I feel that this is relevant. The grounding that pankaj talks about would stablilize these boys. without grounding they are disadvantaged.
Being uncut was never an issue for me. Most women I know prefer uncut cocks, and quite vocally.
My mom had a coworker (Varghese) whose son had a hangup about being uncut. Had my mom not asked me about it, I think I would have gone through completely unaware that I was supposed to feel bad about being uncut. (Yeah, my mom has no sense of boundaries…)
A> La Perla is it.
B> I think Patkaj’s (real or troll) comments can adequately represent a group of Desi males, African American women or other minority groups at the losing end of what is considered ‘beautiful’ in society. Unfortunately in real world, looks do result in power, financial rewards and a higher status in terms of being desired. It’s not fair, but it’s reality.
C> Dating white isn’t a problem, I think. From my observations with friends over time, I find it a little bit weird when people choose one nationality or culture that is different from theirs and pursue those people to exclusivity. Caucasians males only dating Japanese women, Chinese men only pursuing Caucasian women, etc…to my eyes that means they are looking to cast someone into a (sexualized) role, rather than having a relationship with a real person.
D> ABDs have very different experiences with each generational cycle even as little as 3-4 years. ABDs over 30 didn’t have the population base of larger communities where an individual could create strong socialization roles for sexual identity/role models and behavior that those who are ~20.
E> The real question is will ABD lose their culture over time in the US…
F> Hmm, why was I driven to add some insight to this thread…oh, yeah La Perla. Good. Very good.
In fact, this usually comes up before we even finish the first drink (or before the water is poured in case it is a dinner date). I then whip it out onto the bar or dinner table, and the date usually goes much smoother once that elephant in the room is acknowledged.
uncut
and now, we may have just covered every topic possible on one thread alone!
As I said before–you’re officially grounded, the lot of ya.
Thanks, Vinod 😛
You’re right, the constraint is generally my sub-circle(s). I am just prejudiced, let’s be real. You will not find me grabbing drinks with my girlfriends in the Marina or the Financial District — we will be living it up in the Mission. Also, I know this sounds nitpicky, but especially in the Bay I think differentiating between straight single and queer single guys is important. I’m sure that won’t skew your beautiful map, but I have a feeling the skew would start to go down 🙂
and the date usually goes much smoother once that elephant in the room is acknowledged.
you mean elephant’s trunk, right?
I am surprised that the other bugaboo of tall women/short men has not been brought up. Then, every topic possible would have been covered.
I am sure HMF would have an opinion on that.
now rahul, are you going to be at the NYC meetup?
Also v. true. I am not above saying that I just might not do it for the guys over here 🙂
lion, is this really a question? I ask because I wonder what definition of “culture” you’re using.
Camille, where do you hang out in SF? I’m a little over the club/bar scene, but I still hit up Zeitgeist and some dive bars on 16th Street (Delirium, etc.) every now and then. My current favorite is Double Dutch, but the Valencia corridor can also be fun. Actually, I’m frequenting the Tenderloin a lot more these days…Bambuddha Lounge and Bourbon & Branch are great, but I go less for the scene and more for the top-notch bartenders. 🙂
Camille & Satya: since I’m not only on the prowl for a suitable boy, but also more desi girlfriends, tell me how it is that we haven’t run across each other if we frequent the same places? (I swear I am always the only desi girl at every place I go to. sigh.)
Depending on how much accompanied baggage they let me take on my transportation to NYC.
So I just checked out Indian Dating (is this the same as browndating? cuz browndating didn’t show up) and there are all these white guys on there. One of them said he wanted an Indian girl because Indian women are beautiful and have ‘strong values’. Methinks that is a euphemism.
Harbeer, your mom sounds really adorable.
Lion, dunno know what planet you are inhabiting but in mine (Montreal) the black chicks get a lot of hot guys – mainly white. And by no means are they considered less attractive than other women – perhaps the opposite.
Btw, Satya & Camille — my favorite Mission bar is the Uptown, and I’ve recently been enjoying Place Pigalle in Hayes Valley. I recommed the latter if you haven’t been.
Uhh, I think I did have an opinion, which you quoted, why you quoted it, I’m still working on that
milli @ 928 said:
Because you’re all too busy checking me out, duh!
Meh! I used to work on 17th and Capp, so I’d comfort myself with a beer or some Maker’s Mark at Uptown almost every night! Where’s Place Pigalle? I actually live on the outskirts of Hayes Valley but never hang out there ’cause it seems too bougie.
Orbit Room’s great for drinks, too. And I have a special place in my heart for Martuni’s, but that’s the gayest I go–the queens can be quite tawdry. 😉
I would like to throw in a request for the other combo of tall men/short women too…. (well, tall guy and short girl is sort of normal and expected, but how about like, say a 6’3 guy and a 5’0 girl… does someone think that would be too weird?)
i’m sure they’re quite accommodating. just
batflash your, erm, at the nice lady at the counter 😛the question is, do you have room for une tarte on your way back? i’m sure i can satiate your sweet tooth utterly, delightfully, and fantastically.
Satya, we’re actually usually a bit deeper in the Mission (near Folsom/20th), so all of us are a bit dive-bar-y. When we go out it’s not usually for the scene, but to just kick it in each other’s company with as little maintenance as possible, haha. I usually try to stay off of 16th Street, just because it gets hectic, but when we are there we’re usually at Skylark or Cama. Other than that, we’re usually at the Homestead, the Uptown, Mission Bar, Maverick, or Pop’s. On rare occasions we’ll be at Amnesia, Beauty Bar, or the Elbo Room, but usually when there’s an event of some sort. For the TL, I really like Club Six, despite the fact that folks think it’s super dodgy. I think we’re a little Mission-introverted, though; we hardly venture out to other areas of the city (I mean, why venture when it means having to drive later?).
Same here!
I love tall women. I’m 5’10” and would have no problem dating a woman who was 6′ or even taller. The tallest I’ve ever actually gone out with was 5’11”. I swear I’m not leaving this inane comment just so we can get closer to 1000. I actually do love tall women. And so far, this has been my most valuable contribution to this thread. Until I get to 1000, that is, Razib.
That would absolutely, positively never work. I am sure someone would think that would be too weird. And that would be that.
Because I prefer to have citations to support my points 🙂
Also, my SF bar scene info is very dated, but I remember really liking Vesuvio when I used to hang out in SF. Is it still around/popular?
Sorry, ladies, I am crazy slow! By the time I finish typing about 10 new comments pop up 🙂
I have no idea! I swear that I am always the only desi girl at every place I go to! Maybe we’re not going out on the same nights, although now I’m no longer Bay-based (tear, sniffle).
It seems to me that a Desi Girls Who Love Mission Dive Bars in San Francisco special meetup is in order. Curious onlookers need not apply.
Not in public transport, portmanteau. There might be laws against that, mile high clubs and Ralph Fiennes be damned.
Yeah, interesting method!. I should look into that.
Curious onlookers need not apply.
is there going to be a trunk check?
I like Vesuvio, Rahul, I’m just rarely in North Beach 🙂
Ooo, I was also going to say that b/c I was East Bay based I was also in the Lake district a lot, or in downtown Oakland. My faaaaave “cozy” bar, though, has to be the Albatross.
harbeer – Being uncut was never an issue for me. Most women I know prefer uncut cocks, and quite vocally.
My mom had a coworker (Varghese) whose son had a hangup about being uncut. Had my mom not asked me about it, I think I would have gone through completely unaware that I was supposed to feel bad about being uncut. (Yeah, my mom has no sense of boundaries…)
Harbeer I do not know if you speak for the population of ladies out there that most women prefer uncut cocks. Personally, I grew up in a large jewish area – called ny and I am not sure that that is the case. A man’s member does contribute significantly to his self esteem, confidence level depending on how appealing it may be to the opposite sex. I am sorry but I feel strongly that the average uncut indian penis may cause some anxiety issues for boys growing up.
Took the words right outta my fingers! I was just thinking the same. I’m a little jealous, though, because I think I’ll miss all the happy desi-gal-pal comingling. =/
I’m down! Any excuse to drink-lol
you give up far too easily, monsieur. to think i wanted to be maid marian to your outlaw robin hood.
Place Pigalle is right on Hayes … maybe a block, 1.5 blocks away from Absinthe? (which, by the way, has amazing drinks and a fine, mixed crowd despite the location) It’s pretty divey, but the bartender has been nothing but competent and super friendly; the people are also fine. I played foosball (sp?) there for the first time in my life with a bunch of people who have obviously never played foosball. (I aim to be in a bar where people generally mind their own business but are up for silly chat while waiting for the bathroom or doing dumb things like playing foosball poorly). Since most of my friends are teh gay, you can imagine that I am in Martuni’s more than I care to admit. I stopped going to Orbit Room after the bartender switch … oh and I don’t know if I consider Hayes Valley “bougie,” at least not in the oppressive way I find the Marina to be. It’s definitely changing (I’m noticing many more impeccably groomed couples with babies in SUV strollers), but I still like it for now.
Vesuvio is swell, but getting to North Beach (for me) is not! My fave bar in North Beach is probably Spex.
Well, downtownbrown, schedule your bris (but hold my invite). I am sure rabbinical studies can be produced that demonstrate that confidence will magically appear as the foreskin disappears. Of course, the nagging Jewish mother stereotype comes with the deal.
(Maybe this is PG in a male avatar? Sorry, but these complaints just seem ridiculous. How old are these people? 10?)