…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
Ah, the indeterminacy of Internet handles!
Divya, Satya = Satyavati. But if I weren’t heterosexual, perhaps I’d fall prey to your feminine wiles. 🙂
Forget Puliogre– is Divya for real? That I-banker-curry-hazing/blowing kisses at end of comment shtick has me thinking troll.
wow….thats awesome…reaks of confidence…
SM Intern:
I’ve been on the receiving end of the following message for comment submission failed for the following reasons:
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awww….thats no fun…puliogre a day keeps the doctor away…
…or reeks.
Rahul @ 747: I need to be grounded, too, mang. And SF Girl is right–San Francisco is a great place to be a straight, single man.
Some of us will be at Pundits With Punchlines tonight, if we can tear ourselves away from this train wreck long enough to get some work done.
So now, girls who take care of their looks are the ones with straight hair, fair skin, and rail-thin bodies? I take personal offense at that! It takes more time to make sure my mane of curls is shiny and frizz-free than it would to blow-dry and flat-iron! And I may not qualify as having a “wheatish” complexion but oh, the pains of preventing hyperpigmentation and sun damage! Also, curvaceous though I may be, 5’4″ and 110 lbs. isn’t exactly a heifer. Ah, it’s probably for the best–you’re probably not my type, either. 😉
so, the moral of the story is that jen should not date until peter grows up (indefinite deadline for this), and in the meantime, an entire generation remains celibate and single and miserable.
or, jen dates boys at peter’s level until peter grows up, properly socialized ethnic males marry outside their community in the meantime, and the developmentally delayed males are eventually left with their pick of all the females in their community. verrry tricky!
SFGirl wrote:
Man, I knew SF was the promised land. My sister lives there and says socially it is definitely a different place from the West Coast. Wait a sec, SFGirl, I hope you aren’t my sister by any chance (though she normally avoids all things desi)! She did say that within the city itself, there are relatively few desis who actually “live” there.
satya at 746 – it is not about their egos, it is about their confidence levels, how open their hearts are and stratification. Someone has to compensate peter for what he has lost due only to race. by jen’s dating outside her race, into circles that perhaps peter would fit into were he not phillipino, she could potentially emasculate him, stratifying him developmentally so he is lesser constitution in some respects to a certain crowd where it was ultimately race that emasculated him.
no offense. im not saying that these are the only grls i like. most of the grls who i date dont fall under that category. i just think these grls are likely to pay attn to their looks, and i am prob in their target range. im not nearly as warped out as your imagining.
SFGirl (#737):
I would agree that SF is a sucky place for dating, but not for the reasons you mentioned. I lived there for exactly a year, so I’m probably not an authority on the topic of the SF dating scene, but in that one year I saw more pretension and just the worst kinds of brown dating behavior than I did in 8 years of living out East. I never saw any kind of gender bias in terms of sheer number of women, either, and I certainly was not overwhelmed with attractive women. Quite the opposite, actually–in that year, I found myself lowering my standards further and further until finally I quit dating entirely.
I’m sure that my experience was atypical, and that SF is actually heaven on earth, as any number of people have tried to convince me, but my experience led me to believe otherwise.
Which is why I moved back East.
Puliogre, don’t worry. I seldom take stuff like this to heart. I’m mainly teasing, though it is funny how often I’ve seen desi guys slaver over the type in question, despite the fact that girlfriend might be a total c**t. But then again, I’m not single, so it’s more of a bemused observation from afar than anything else.
2nd genners (ABCDs) have a very tough time. Not only must they balance two cultures, but they are also usually restricted socially vs. their white american counterparts. The social awkwardness that many speak of affects desi men and women both. However, since men are expected to make the first move on women 99% of the time in the dating game (ok maybe 98% now) and that is especially true when it comes to desi women (i.e., desi women are less likely to make the first move) desi women get more experience without much effort from just going out, whereas desi men must learn the game, which makes their social awkwardness more apparent.
But FYI, I have seen almost as many socially awkward desi women as I have men. Such women have no idea how to respond to being hit upon, whether the hit is obnoxious or casual, and whether it is by a desi male or other. They just shy away and run off (yes, really!) or do not know how to hold a conversation.
IMHO, this whole “I don’t date desi” attitude, in my experience, tends to be a phase that younger people go through starting in their teens and, for some, progressing until their late 20s.
It is at that point that they begin to realize:
Wait a minute, I don’t think I’ve ever (or if so , VERY rarely) heard a white person say they “don’t date white people”
I don’t judge all white people based on some bad experiences with them, so why am I judging desis that way?
I always think of myself as “not the typical desi”, but NOBODY I know is really the “typical desi person” and I am not unique in that way, maybe I should start seeing desis as individuals the same way I do others…?
I don’t want to be stereotyped by white people, so why is it okay for me to stereotype fellow desi people and does this make sense?
Perhaps I’ve been rejected by some desi cliques the same way I would be rejected by some other cliques of similar socio-economic status, and I just haven’t found the right group of friends yet that includes desis
And they begin to see the light. Other stay bitter. Fortunately, the bitter ones are in the minority. 😉
part of this is to see what it would be like to date such a grl…ill let you know how that goes…
Pankaj, I think the only man, in my recent memory, who can reasonably claim to have been emasculated by a woman was a white protestant (I’m assuming the latter). And even he took active steps to right that mishap.
Puliogre, don’t worry. I seldom take stuff like this to heart. I’m mainly teasing, though it is funny how often I’ve seen desi guys slaver over the type in question, despite the fact that girlfriend might be a total c**t. But then again, I’m not single, so it’s more of a bemused observation from afar than anything else.
Also, Pankaj, you are making the assumption that brown women are universally regarded as sexually desirable by men of different races. In truth, I’ve stumbled upon quite a few men who have said they wouldn’t date an Indian woman–not out of malice, but because of a variety of cultural and physical factors that cancel out any attraction. When I was younger, I felt like I lost a lot of opportunities to date purely on the basis of race, but that didn’t automatically turn me into a maladjusted freakazoid.
Gujudude, can you email me (linked via handle)? Thanks!
Classic. Nobody else is responsible for your self-esteem but YOU. Only you can control your own mind and emotions, nobody else. The people around you are only triggers, not the cause of your feelings of low self-worth. Comprende?
Nobody took birth on this planet just to make you feel good about yourself. They have their own life to live, as do you. So go on out there and get that life!
You sound alot like Pearl Jr. over at http://www.BlackWomenNeedLoveTo.com
The world owes you nothing. Life is what you make it.
I’m not defending his statements outright, only some of the attitudes that prevail behind them. While women do not call for exactly what you’ve said, many certainly do place blame on their self-esteem issues on their treatment from others, in particular men. My point is, no one would ever tell a woman to “shutup and get with it”
I dont know if coddling is the correct word. I dont think parents intend to make their sons inept in an American dating social context, rather it just turns out that way because:
Thank you for this hallmark card, I agree with you in a general sense. However just yelling at someone who’s lacked self confidence for whatever reason, “Be Confident!” is about as useful as yelling to a smack addict, “Just stop doing smack!”
In addition, I believe confidence is in large part due to feedback. Yes, I know its not PC to say that we should base how we feel about ourselves on how others feel about us, but it’s inevitable. For example, there’s an NLP technique used to bring you back into a state where you have those confident feelings in an arena other than women. Maybe you climbed a moutain, won a cycling race, aced a test, got a smokin job, whatever, certain chemicals in your brain were released (serotonin?) the idea is to trigger those again.
But without those experiences in the first place, saying, “its all about confidence” is pretty pointless.
I sorta made a decision to not comment too much on this thread but this quote forced me to the frontlines 😉
wow… maybe its a grass is greener thing but nearly every SF dude I know complains about how almost everywhere we go, the male/female ratio is WAY SKEWED to more guys. And when we go to the east coast (esp. NYC!), it’s amazing how many more women there are. I mean nearly every sentance in the quote above has been uttered by my dude friends (swapping men for women, of course).
So, there’s obviously a lot of observor bias here and perhaps on both sides… BUT, the (more objective) statistical data seems to back up the male narrative – for ex here.
And when you talk about desi vs the broad population, it’s even worse. The biggest industries out here aren’t just male dominated, they’re DESI MALE dominated. 😉
Salil, do you they would come to our Sepia-themed ‘camp’ too? The Mixer sounds fantastic.
Aww! How cute:)
Hogwarts, er hogwash. Me thinks you are busy reading the epic magic wand disco dandiya battle between HP and Hewhomustnotbenamed.
Pankaj, maybe this will help?
Emasculate yourselves from desi slavery; None but ourselves can free our men. Have no fear for abcd energy, cause none of them can stop the time.
If you can pull this off the next time you meet a woman, I bet you can instantly accelerate your development, the Kumars at #588 be damned.
<
blockquote>I’m not defending his statements outright, only some of the attitudes that prevail behind them. While women do not call for exactly what you’ve said, many certainly do place blame on their self-esteem issues on their treatment from others, in particular men. My point is, no one would ever tell a woman to “shutup and get with it”blockquote>
This is exactly what some women are calling for.
See this link http://www.castlestudio.net/tbm/forums/showthread.php?tid=801 for a discussion that is ongoing in the African American community
Shodan, you’re such a spoiler. But your wiles will not succeed with me, unless it is a 70s Hindi movie. Been there and been disappointed (well, not exactly disappointed because I didn’t expect better, maybe I just wasn’t really appointed) already last week.
DQ , was it you the other day in the Bridge movie theatre 😀
Damn. In case I wasn’t clear, I was hoping for the first type of girl. Not that there is anything wrong with the other kind, but hey as long as you’re young and fit all the target demographics, might as well take advantage right?
@742 Puliogre – Here are a few places. It’s still summer so there is a high number of MBA/I-Banking interns in the city, of all hues and definitely plenty of the stick-thin-desi-straight-hair type that you crave. For starters go to the 33rd street and 3rd Ave on a Friday for happy hour. There are a lot of girls of the above profile. Also, keep in mind that if you go out enough number of times, you to the strip of bars above, you will find plenty of desi girls there.
Other places, mid town bars (east and west but more on the east side). I would recommend avoid going out at night (Fri/sat) cos then it becomes more formal and the whole I’m out to get game stench sets in. Stick to happy hours for a few weeks, hang out near the bar, and you will be surrounded by these women waiting to get a drink at the bar.
Also, bars/lounges in Hotels. As mentioned above, stick to happy hours and be preared to drop 6-8$ for a beer and more for mixed drinks. Good luck and enjoy.
p.s. avoid bars too afr downtown, near Wall Street. The I-bankers don’t like to drink where they pee.
I think that I have done the best I can on this thread in getting my point accross. All I ask is to look at the state of the world where racism and discrimination still exist, and the success other ethnic groups have had by not marrying out until later generations. After all why is it always the guy who goes to india to find his bride.
Lizzie (greeneyed fem) @ #667 and delerium tremens @ 682: Thanks for indulging my nosiness. Have y’all see the Gay Son skit on Goodness Gracious Me? F-in funny.
thanks. lets see if ive got any game!
Because he buys into the steretype of the family-centered, religious, submissive, subservient, obedient Indian-born Desi wife. Someone who will go to Mandir with his mother on the weekends for katha/religious sangeet, and learn all his favourite culinary dishes from the same mother during the week.
American Desi women on the otherhand are not neccessarily attracted to the stereotype of Indian-born Desi men and thus they rarely go back to India and fetch themselves a desi groom.
Plus, it’s usually a mother to a son that is very concerned about the type of wife, or “second mother” that her son marries. She wants her daughter in law to be a certain way for both herself and her son.
Mothers of daughters don’t have the same requirements of son-in-laws.
After all why is it always the guy who goes to india to find his bride.
In England a lot of the Pakistani women get married to their distant/not so distant cousins from Pakistan. I havnt really seen that in the US.
Add to the mountain climbing and smoking-job-gettin’, some chickpea eating– loads ‘o serotonin there.
Good luck! Some of us are rootin’ for ya, man.
I was thinking of going to india to meet grls. my reasonsing is “if the grl i like turns out to me an american, fine. if she turns out to be in india, introduced by my parents, why should that be an issue?”
After all why is it always the guy who goes to india to find his bride.
I guess that would explain why 2 of my friends are being hauled off this week to India in the hopes of returning with a groom. I believe they are your female counterparts to your developmentally delayed males (i.e. live at home, socially awkward, not trendy, etc.) Pankaj, in your world, I think we must remain celibate, submit to mummy and daddy’s whims and let them marry us off to whomever they wish until, as you imagine, we are all on equal footing. We are living in a majority white society — you think they have their shit straightened out? Stratification happens along all kinds of lines, race just being one factor; Should skinny people not date until their single, overweight counterparts do? Do people with clear skin wait until their friends’ acne clears up? Should the witty wait for the witless to get with the program? Should the sane wait for everyone else to get the hell out of rehab? If dating were THAT easy for the appropriately developed, match.com, this thread, and countless self-help books would not be as popular as they are!
Okay, to make this discussion a leetle more equitable…I live in San Francisco, and although I’m not technically looking, I’m curious: Where can I go to find progressive, hot (i.e., a nice haircut, athletic build, taller than 5’10”, smells good) guy who’s sweet and chivalrous without being a fossilized bore? If you’re wondering, I’m simply trying to hook up my pinker-hued, straight-haired, not-as-voluptuous desi female friends, who are tired of getting hit on by sleazy desi guys who assume they’re easy, vapid golddiggers.
I felt like I lost a lot of opportunities to date purely on the basis of race, but that didn’t automatically turn me into a maladjusted freakazoid
This “maladjusted freakazoid” is heading to Lupa for happy hour–see you there, Puliogre!
This sounds like the relationship version of the lobster quadrille.
Instead of just rootin’ from the sidelines, why not take one for the team?
See..
http://www.leveragedsellout.com/2005/07/bonus-season/
i should just go back and forth between this thread and a jobs in california website. geez…although i dont make ur height requirement. c’est la vie.
yikes…im not repulsive or anything. no charity required. but, if there is any bid on puli, let me know!
The SF meetup!
why is everyone posting their stats?
32-25-36; 5’2.5″ :P; am now going to the ladies room to purge.
like vimal i hesitated to post here because (i would just blurt out my experiences characteristic “authentic” and “representative” which they’re probably not). this was all so absurd and obvious, but was warmed by the story of the lady dating the viking and harbeer’s alternagirl. someone wished that desi guys would look at here because (she thought) she didn’t fit the standard desirable girl profile. why? if someone is immune to your charms, why not take your love to where it is wanted (and deserved)?
as always i defer to bollywood wisdom on this one. when i was in india last year, outlook compiled a list of the best hindi movie dialogs ever. from bobby (inaccurately transcribed), this sappy truism is a gem:
trans. If they want you for you, then that’s love. If they’ll love you only after you change, then it isn’t love love. It’s called a deal.
Camille et AK: what’s a shaadi without some naach-gaana, yeah? And roll your eyes right back at the uncharitables at the gym 🙂 Razib: Many thanks for trying to bring this to sanity time and again. I’m amazed by your patience.
I love it, Rahul!
Will you, won’t you, will you, won’t you, will you join the dance?
How I heart Lewis Carroll…another maladjusted freakazoid who created a timeless classic for all generations to delight in. Who says that being developmentally delayed can’t lead to greatness?
@ Lizzie Thanks for lurking at SM and de-lurking now. If it is not too personal, how did your partner’s desi parents handle the transition? The desi parents i have come across that have accepted their child’s gayness, did not have to deal with gender identity, only with gender preference. And once again, I wish you good luck with everything…
Now I have the soup song stuck in my head. Rahul, can you sing harmony?