…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
camille, thanks. and i would gladly accept the invite – i am in love with bhangra, abnormaly for a child of two very south indian parents who are only into south indian culture. if i ever i have a wedding, there must be bhangra – that’s why a punjabi groom would be best 😉
As I was falling asleep last night, I was thinking about this… its a theory, feel free to agree or disagree.
On this very thread, we have seen a comments about how a lot of desi men are intimidated when it comes to women who are equally or better educated than themselves, women who make more money etc. Add parental/social pressure on desis in general and our women come out on top and are very successful in life.
Does this make those desi men look outside their own race for a less successful woman?
ak, that’s the truth. (sorry I keep posting piecemeal; I see new comments and get excited with every “refresh”). I would LOVE to meet more desi guys who are “off the beaten track” in terms of their education. Not to dog on the JD/MBA/MD/Engineers, they’re lovely also, but it is a nice change of pace to meet guys in other fields.
Totally agreed, and that’s an awful anecdote.
AK:
Bingo. you’ve seen the light. And you wouldn’t find the caricature funny, strictly because you believe it’s not accurate. Comedy is truth and pain, you don’t buy the truth. But those Indian women out there that do buy that truth, and to expose it so nonchalantly without acknowledging the racist/emasculating legacy that bubbles behind it, is just as callous as me outright rejecting the desi female stating, “we had a harder time entering the dating structure because of baggage, etc.. etc..”
Camille:
That’s disingenuous, I think given the discussion train, it’s obvious in what sense I meant coexistence.
Hehehe. Actually, I have an ignorant question. I think part of the reason bhangra is so popular is because of its intrinsic role as a folk dance (I also think this is why it is relatively easier to pick up, like the difference between hip hop and ballet). Are there similar types of “folksy” easy-to-pick-up Southie dances? I’ve only seen the (very beautiful) classical dances, and I’ve always wondered.
Karthik, while I think there is more pressure within desi communities to find a girl “accomplished, but not as accomplished” and for men to be the providers in relationships, I actually think the trend you describe is true of most norms for men across racial/ethnic backgrounds… especially when you limit it to the “have a college degree or more” set.
i wouldn’t find it funny because it wasn’t funny – irregardless of whether i could protest its veracity. for one thing, it was an ethnic/racial stereotype. but it also seemed ultra-condescending. and there are plenty of non-desi guys who have similar difficulties with the pick-up skills – why single out the brown guys? you should have come back with a caricature of your own, preferably of the ill-humoured couple themself 🙂 i understand your point about women who find that caricature accurate, but even still, it just seemed mean-spirited.
“Why is it that most women always want to have the best of both worlds and be liked by all…”
So as not to tarnish their mirrored self reflection…group approval at all costs.
This is the sort of comment that has turned what was an otherwise productive conversation into a mean-spirited free-for-all. Please don’t attack women because it makes you feel better about yourselves.
Seriously. Comments have veered two ways — either women are cruel and racist within-group, or we are sycophantic and trying to win group approval. This really is not here nor there, nor does it encourage dialogue to continue.
as there are plenty of non-black guys that commit crimes, they’re plenty of non-hispanic guys that are lazy, they’re plenty of non-asian guys that drive poorly, plenty of non-desi girls that crave high drama,… but stereotypes are just that, illogical yet persistant.
One of the other [desi] girls there actually did say, that’s wrong but in kind of a chummy-chummy, jokey, way, kind of like “thats wrooooong”, to which I responded, “Dont worry, he didn’t mean it, it was only an occident.“
I think you’ll agree in those kinds of social settings, you can’t really go moral on everyone’s ass, even if you have correctness in your corner.
camille, there are some folk styles – some involve dandiya (kolattam in tamil), others are based on tribal cultures, some have to do with temple dancing, but not classical (e.g. kavadi). other forms include kummi (similar to garba, with women in a circle and lots of clapping), karagattam (dancing with a pot balanced on the head) etc. but they don’t enjoy the same popularity as bhangra, and many are specific to certain festivities – e.g. not suitable to busting out at a party. also, i have to say, south indians have a tendency to not appreciate dancing for the sake of dancing – there must be some purpose, some meaning in the dance – hence the appreciation for classical dance. a while back, i was at a wedding (tamil girl-gujarati boy) and we were watching the baraat come down the street, everybody dancing. most of the younger lot on our side wanted to join them, but we were told to maintain strict distance from the boy’s side for a bit longer. as we watched them, thinking how much fun they were having, an aunty said – che, intha vadanaattu karanga – ethukedutthaalum aduvaanga!’ translation : these damn north indians dance for everything. so even if you learned any of our lovely folk dances, you’d have little use for them in your life in the US.
Welcoming you to Chennai! Please to be enjoying Dappan koothu. Please to be dancing like this to music like this.
Thanking you, I remain, Your obedient servant, Pingpong
“This is the sort of comment that has turned what was an otherwise productive conversation into a mean-spirited free-for-all”
No need to get self righteous………Mirrored self reflection is at the heart of all human behavior.
I was in the gym reading ebony and the cover story was :dating outside our race…is it ok: My friend and I both felt it was incredibly conservative to even assume it was worthy of a cover story. As a liberal arts kid I meddle in theories and stats of intermarriage and believe in colonial mythologies, promotion of “white beauty”, disparaging those traits that make our looks different from the white population etc. At the same time I largely agree with Anna. Find what you like, figure out why you like it and if it works for you then go for it. I don’t believe for a second that you are born with a preference for skinny brown girls or ghostly white boys or the variations in between. But you do develop them over time and in response to your environment. I think its up to you to figure out how you feel about that and how far you pursue them when it comes to race.
Hello (non-desi perspective here). I prefer dating desi men because in my experience, I’ve found them to be emotionally responsive, financially responsible(hard working), well-educated, witty and ready to apply those hard-working ethics to being good partners. I love Indian culture so when you couple that with my affinity for dark hair, eyes and skin you’ll see why I consider myself lucky that there are desi men who will date outside their culture.
For Harbeer @ 612:
you want queer, you got queer. 🙂
I haven’t been able to read through all the comments, but here are some thoughts from me, a queer white girl partnered with a brown transman (we were together for 4 years as a same-sex couple). I also have good friends who are coupled – a brown girl and an African-American girl – and I’ve skirted the edges of the queer desi circles of NYC for a while.
A lot depends on how out you are to your family, obviously, although personal experience has taught me that parents are extremely good at living in denial (dropping marriage hints to my partner right in front of me!). But I think that being gay/queer, and out to the family, means that a lot of the cultural pressure to marry, find the right person, have kids, etc. gets channeled and diverted in very different ways (the sex/gender of the person being dated can become more important than other stuff, like race). Also – I’ve found gender identity and expression mean a lot, too – like, it’s easier to deal with a femme lesbian daughter than a butch one – at least she looks “normal” (although I think this is pretty much true for all ethnicities).
And yes, the same danger of being exoticized exists among the gay brownz as among the straights (being queer doesn’t mean you can’t be racist, duh), but I also think there’s more openness about cross-ethnic dating because the dating pool is just smaller. I mean, to find another queer brown is something of an event – so even if you like them, it doesn’t mean you’ll LURVE them. And it depends on where you live too, in terms of how many chances you have to meet other queer desis. And just to throw out another generalization: I’ve found that a lot of the sub-categories that ABDs identify with can become less important in a meeting of queer desis: just being queer and desi can be more bond-forming than drawing lines because of the language they speak, their religion, their family’s area of origin, etc.
At the same time, if a family is accepting of their child’s sexuality, then race can become an issue again. I know my African-American friend has gotten shit from her partner’s family, both for being gay and for being black.
My two non-sequitur cents. 🙂
I wonder if it’s just coincidental that this post happened to be #666.
HMF, like you implied before, you’re a right menace to bess!
Tongue-in-cheek humor, I presume? 🙂
hillside, if someone puts you on to that scene — please let me know. 😉
Dang I’m hella late!
I don’t want to derail this thread but why is it that every time something about interracial issues comes up, the black community gets thrown in and kicked around a bit? (I know that was so, like, 500 comments ago, but still…)
True, anybody who’s been around the black community knows that by appearances, about 25% of black men appear to date white women exclusively but Mera dil ke paas, et al., this post is about our fabulous brown brothers and sisters who are smitten by descendents of the Mayflower.
While the situation of American black men/women and desi men/women doesn’t compare on a macro level, it could be said there are similarities because of minority status. Most of my early life, I was surrounded by white people. My attractions reflected as much. The more Asian friends I had, I ended up dating Asian though not exclusively.
LFM hit the issue right on the head for me. This beautiful black woman—don’t hate, appropriate!–is open to dating any ethnicity/culture in theory but the bottom line is finding someone who’s life will mesh into mine. aka, If he can’t get down like I get down, we can’t get down.
649 · hillside on July 30, 2007 10:42 AM · Direct link
Also, with all due respect, according to the understanding of Hinduism I have been taught, you may raise your children as Hindus, but they wouldn’t be Hindus, because Hindus must have a Hindu mother. That being said, more power to you for your understanding.
–> Where did that come from ? Last I checked, every time there is discussion on stupidity in religion in general and hinduism in particular, the response(by and large) has been, ‘Hinduism is this amorphous ‘way of life’ blob that burrows into its practitioners and stays there’. In such a case, where did that restriction of having a hindu mother come from ?
so true AK. I was raised in a fairly self-conscious classical dance (Bharatanatyam)environment where southie folk-dances did not take up much of our time. I think the only place you’ll be able to see actual performances is during the hectic Chennai arts season–generally US audiences, and desi parents, want more bang for their buck and classical dance forms offer acculturation, culture-identification, mythology and the aesthetics common to many other classical dance forms.
folk-dances tend to have simpler pedigrees and share more of a celebratory/joyful tone.
I have had several northies comment that watching me dancing bhangra is like watching Rajnikanth bellydance.
“Where did that come from ? “
the same place where a 17 year old sikh can be surprised that there are non-jatt sikhs…including their gurus.
Post with most comments (AFAIK):
An Adopting Mother Confronts the Complexion Gap – 651
That record got blown away. Me thinks this thread will touch a 1000.
i am honestly surprised that throughout all the back-and-forth with pankaj (troll or not, and i am inclined to believe not) that nobody (or very few?) have brought up the idea of parental responsibility. why should the females have to shoulder the burden of properly socializing the developmentally delayed males? if we want fewer developmentally delayed males in our community in the future, perhaps that needs to start with proper parenting by those of us that plan to have kids. (sorry if that doesn’t help pankaj’s current predicament). i would generally say that my girl friends and i were kept under a much stricter watch than our males friends, which one might think would lead to the opposite in terms of social development. while we girls had curfews, couldn’t date, etc. our male counterparts were left to do whatever the hell they wanted. yes, their parents didn’t want them partying, dating, etc. but they also put up much less of a resistance with the boys. a trip to the temple clearly highlighted the discrepancy in treatment: while most of the girls were in traditional dress and forced to remain present for the entire puja, most of the boys showed up in tattered jeans and superhero t-shirts, often let loose to play outside or play their gameboys nearby. if they were even forced to come to the temple at all. same situation at parties — all the girls were required to play perfect hostess, while the boys could hole up in their rooms or simply disappear to a friend’s house. the resulting effect — in my case, at least — was a lasting resentment towards these boys accompanied by relatively strong social adeptness. males around the world are slow developers, opressed or not. what i didn’t learn about socializing in america in my orthodox household, i picked up pretty damn quickly in school. i do often wonder why some people learn social skills and cues better than others, but i don’t think it’s my responsibility to make up for it by dating or marrying them. i can certainly be kind to them, support them, model more appropriate behavior, speak up when others mock them, etc. but at the end of the day, we wouldn’t be a match and i don’t see the point of dating someone completely wrong for me simply to raise their self-esteem or position in society. the people who are best off are the ones who are confident, happy with who they are, and who seek to be with others like that, regardless of their social status. i am equally envious of two trekkies happily conversing in klingon walking their baby zoltron (yes, i know them) as i am the gorgeous professional couple with equally gorgeous children.
It is actually possible to catch the eye of people (mostly uninentional) whilst portraying a mischievous Krishna, stealing butter and the hearts of hapless gopis.
trust me, it happens, happened and will happen again. And 100% of the time, in my experience, it was a non-desi (white) girl and a desi guy.
That record got blown away. Me thinks this thread will touch a 1000.
not if the comments are closed.
i am honestly surprised that throughout all the back-and-forth with pankaj (troll or not, and i am inclined to believe not) that nobody (or very few?) have brought up the idea of parental responsibility. why should the females have to shoulder the burden of properly socializing the developmentally delayed males
i found pankaj’s comment tardishly absurd. some ideas are outside the bounds of rational discourse assuming some common values. that isn’t england in 1860, no one believes women have to civilize men.
hillside and hillsidegal–well everyone–do you think there even is a particular ‘scene’ for that? I mean, outside of organized dating events or desi club parties (which a lot of people, like myself, are not always into)? Maybe it is just a matter of being more open to whatever, wherever you hang out normally? Just wondering…I have lived in DC for a while too and I am curious about that. I just don’t know.
milli:
How does this make logical sense? If parents collectively turned a blind eye, or put up significantly less resistence to their male children dating, but threw their daughters in the iron maiden for even saying the word date, who were they ok’ing their sons to go date?
In the realm of dating, the clamps were pinned down accross the board. Any difference is minor and insignificant.
The discrepancy here has no direct bearing on attitudes towards relationships & dating. Men in India wear “western style clothing” to temples, where as women are expected to wear saris/salwars. Allowing your male children to dress more casually doesn’t equate to “Go out, date, socialize with women, figure out male-female interactions.”
I believe at the middle school/high school level, it’s connected with physical attractiveness. Physically attractive people interact more with the opposite sex, thereby increasing their comfortableness, thereby making them unafraid to interact with more people… cycle continues.
The key is to understand that such people reached a state in part by circumstances outside their control, same as women have their issues which were imparted onto them without their control.
Harbeer @ 6–
I’ll bite and provide a non-hetero perspective. Everything you see in the 600+ comments on straight attitudes towards desi and non-desi dating is compounded in the gay community, atleast among men. I can’t talk about women since I don’t know their takes on it. It is understandable ofcourse that on top of rascism, and sexism most gay men especially in desi communities have seriously low self esteem and the feeling of not being normal. Once they break away from the shackles imposed by whom (usually by going to college) etc, they feel liberated much like a lot of girls from conservative families when they leave home to go to college. A lot of alcohol filled promiscuity.
I also find in equal measure self loathing due to brown identity, hence really hot desi guys hooking up with average to below average white guys (definitely more white than black) as well as desi giys that date only other desi guys. Desis that date only desi guys are also more likely to come out to their parents at some point (usually in their late 20s early 30s) w3ith the hope that atleast they can say, I’m bringing home a good indian wife 😉
Another trend I have noticed among gays and straights, are the people that grew up in conservative/repressed homes but in white pre-dominant society where there few desis (like entire swaths of the mid-west). When these kids leave home to go to Uni, they run amok, enjoying theuir new found sexual liberation which usually seems to tie in with dating/sleeping with the “other” race but once all that repression has been released, more often than not, they want to settle down with someone from a similar background.
Sorry for the terrible sentence construction above.
There are also other factors to consider in the gay community. There is tremendous pressure to fit in as the skinny or athletic and really ripped body type. Bears (big hairy men) have their own subculture where they try to fight against the oppression of the media supported twinkies that are all about fashion and flame their way through life.
The other factor to consider is that in most of the US, the possibility of a long term future that is sanctioned by society does not exist. This I think has the opposite effect of making gays go out of their way to prove to society, that they can be in committed long term relationships and they are more likely to compromise and settle down with whoever they can find. What I’m saying is the strong preference for desi or non-desi that already exists in them, gets solidified pretty soon becuase they don’t want to hold out forever which in the gay world is granted much later than that in the straight world. If in the straight world, people get anxious about not finding their life partner in their late 20s, early 30s, in the gay world you can add 10 years to that age.
For all the ladies out there that think they have it hard with society or rather men’s expectations on how they should look, body image issues are fierce among gays. Especially when you are in your 30s, the pressure to continue being hot and have a rock hard body is tremendous. It is the logically extreme application of every stifling and oppresive requirement men have imposed on society.
I apologize for my rambling comment and for clarification, I use the term “they” a lot not because I am not gay but because my sexual interests vary depending on the person and not because of their gender.
It is actually possible to catch the eye of people (mostly uninentional) whilst portraying a mischievous Krishna, stealing butter and the hearts of hapless gopis. trust me, it happens, happened and will happen again. And 100% of the time, in my experience, it was a non-desi (white) girl and a desi guy. MM, what do you mean? that i seduced some men during the fourteen years of my BN training?
i’ve found the exact opposite applies to my other dancing skills – BN helped me open up in terms of how my body is capable of moving.
re pedigree – there is definitely a sense of pride for my parents (from others being impressed, partly) when people find out their daughters learned BN. and it doesn’t seem to apply to the non-classical forms of dance.
i found pankaj’s comment tardishly absurd.
i would describe them as incomprehensible and bizarre, which is why i’m holding back from actually nitpicking the earlier exchange, but … i do know a few real life pankaj’s — you know, the boys playing gameboy during puja? i would link their blogs here, but i wouldn’t want to out them, lest they are know by mutineers/are mutineers themselves. practically every entry is a rant about dating/desi girls similar to what pankaj has written. so, there are indeed people out there who believe women should civilize men; in fact, i know several parents who, in response to the female cry of “but all the guys in our community are so lame!!” respond with, “but you can teach them how to be normal and act properly!” i’m not saying we have to condone the weird thoughts, but i’d rather treat them with kindness than completely dismiss them or insult them. this is what most people in my community do to the real-life pankaj’s and i can see how they are the worse off for it. they’re not going to learn how to be any better in isolation.
Physically attractive people interact more with the opposite sex, thereby increasing their comfortableness, thereby making them unafraid to interact with more people… cycle continues.
I believe if a girl has a good relationship with her father, her confidence is higher when dealing with other males that’s the case whether or not she’s good looking.
dmit! that first half was meant to be in quotes
Doug, this attitude is also bolstered by movies and media and sites like http://www.blackwomenneedloveto.com.
It’s not a KKK thing but something created in the minds of black women who feel too many black men are dating/marrying non-black women, when in reality, black on non-black love is still a minority in North America. Women like Pearl Jr. are boycotting all products and entertainment created by black men who are married to non-black women because she sees the out-marrying as epidemic. It’s not. She lives in Cali so yeah, she probably does see alot of black celebrities with non-black partners, but in the rest of the country, it’s just not happening to the same degree.
Moreover, she asserts that black men, once wealthy, should give that wealth to black women and be a type of “saviour” for the lonely black female who made bad choices in her life and now needs a hero. Why? Are black women not accountable for their actions as well? Or are they given a clean sheet just by virtue of being black and female?
Whoa – nearly 700 and we still don’t know whether dating white is right nor not. Damn, 42 was easier..
i’m not saying we have to condone the weird thoughts, but i’d rather treat them with kindness than completely dismiss them or insult them.
more power to you bro! someone needs to potty-train toddlers too, but it doesn’t mean that most of us are altruistic enough to take on the task 😉 i do take the ‘insult & abuse’ tack when dealing with what i have called ‘primitives’ here on SM. look, earlier there was a comment about rebuking aunties & uncles who talk about skin color. a few years ago i was in bangladesh and i had a light skinned aunt who would talk shit about everyone who was darker than she was, compare my siblings (i am like 1% lighter than my brother [i honestly can’t tell the diff., but brown people tell me it is true]) and what not. i got really tired of this. now, i could have explained to her in detail the rational reasons why it isn’t proper or nice to behave/talk in this manner. instead, i just looked at her and stated, “in america you’d just be another n*gger along with [name of a dark skinned person who she was feeling sorry for].” (i didn’t use the n-word, but an equivalent) she didn’t say anything and looked really shocked and offended, but she never did talk shit around me after that. the point is that some people are like animals, better to kick them to not have them yapping all the time. so you be the good cop, and some of us will be the bad cops 😉
How does this make logical sense? If parents collectively turned a blind eye, or put up significantly less resistence to their male children dating, but threw their daughters in the iron maiden for even saying the word date, who were they ok’ing their sons to go date?
HMF, how am i supposed to explain the (il)logic of these parents? i never said their sons were dating women in our community. their sons were dating white women and indian women from less strict communities. their parents complained or tried to talk them out of it but did not go batshit crazy the way they did upon finding out their female children were dating. i can offer up HUNDREDS of examples of biased treatment of male and female children in my community on social matters, but i’d rather not waste everyone’s time describing what most of us have seen for ourselves growing up.
In the realm of dating, the clamps were pinned down accross the board. Any difference is minor and insignificant.
i don’t understand this at all.
“while most of the girls were in traditional dress and forced to remain present for the entire puja, most of the boys showed up in tattered jeans and superhero t-shirts,”
The discrepancy here has no direct bearing on attitudes towards relationships & dating. Men in India wear “western style clothing” to temples, where as women are expected to wear saris/salwars. Allowing your male children to dress more casually doesn’t equate to “Go out, date, socialize with women, figure out male-female interactions.”
no, it doesn’t equate to that — it equates to caring less about what your male children do in general and spending less time helping them develop into mature, functioning adults. and my point regarding dress and temple attendance was more to underscore the fact that this gave girls an opportunity to learn how to socialize, whereas the boys were off in their own world.
T- hype I agree with you 100%
razib, maybe Pankaj meant role-playing. 😉 🙂
so you be the good cop, and some of us will be the bad cops 😉
will do, but that’s “sis” to you, not “bro!”
the point is that some people are like animals, better to kick them to not have them yapping all the time.
well, i am an animal lover so i would never do that anyway!! we have very different ways of dealing with ignorance — i wouldn’t try to persuade you to change your method. i think we’re all better off for being exposed to different personalities and styles of responses to problems. the worst response, IMO, is the enabler, which i am not trying to be.
I have dealt with Pearl jr. before she is out there with her ideas.
Lizzie, I hear you. I am amazed at how completely willing desi parents are to turning a blind eye to their children’s gayness especially when they bring someone home over and over again and are not acting just like friends. Hope things go well for you with the partner.
Do you ever go to the sholay parties in NYC? My first time there, it was so surreal. I thought i was in some cabaret/dance bar type place from Bombay in the 80s with the completely original Bollywood tunes (not even re-mixes), and the drag queens doing their Umrao Jaan and everyone singing along. Then ofcourse, there is the upstairs with the desi-carribo crowd with their calypso beats and how the two worlds don’t mix much inspite of having so much in common – desi and gay; DBD and ABDs stay together, and carribo and blacks stay together.
I agree, if you mean general social interaction, hanging out with friends, going to movies, going out to eat, etc.. but when it comes to individual male-female interaction – I’m sorry, the desi parent mentality that I’ve seen is a disagreement with the process. That process is equally unfit for both men and women. Going to college, I was told both subtly and unsubtly to “not do anything too much with the girls” rather “focus on my education”
No, I think you’re being too general here. The temple attitude is a very specific one, for specific reasons. I was never allowed to wear shorts or ripped jeans to temple, that’s pretty prevalent in most even semi-orthodox households. But not allowing women to wear jeans and ‘western dress’ to temple has to do with the perceived sexuality of that kind of clothing, not saying its sound logic, but thats where it comes from.
milli, you read my thoughts when you wrote that – it’s some kind of human hubris that I don’t agree with. I’m in favor of human animals treating non-human ones with care and respect.
It means my parents, my parents friends, their friends, their friends, etc… would equally not want their sons to date, as much as their daughters. Any discrepancy in the single realm of dating was minor.
Perhaps it also has something to do with the fact that stereotypical Black American culture is the anti-thesis of what stereotypical Desi American culture is and aspires to be, model minority, spelling bee champs, computer experts, married only once and until death, etc.
Wow, SM record. Not bad for a summer weekend.
I better get in before this thread gets closed or something. 699!