…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
600, baby!
One ‘last’ comment – question really – So are you suggesting that matrifocality survived genetically through slavery, and three hundred years? I would say, even if W. African societies are matrifocal, that is a complete coincidence.
melbourne desi are we cousins? : ) couldn’t agree more, mate.
to the desi bredhren who have ‘issues’ with dirrty goras…change yourself…show dem ur the boss. perhaps you can emulate a “playa”, international singer tarkan (not white american or asian) comes to mind.
copy his dress style, acting, WORK ON YOURSELF and the rest will follow: http://youtube.com/watch?v=twI5lri2zyY
peace out
I think it’s pretty clear that Pankaj is just trolling, but here’s one last go:
chachaji @ #551 said:
So, Pankaj’s perceived emasculation justifies his defeminization of the women he considers his? Nobody is asking Pankaj to endorse anything done by females he regards as his property. I think they’re doing fine without his endorsement.
HMF @ #553 said:
Then I’ll do without the “ABD authority” and still comment on his manipulative, entitled, whiny, woe-is-me attitude, ok? His woe-is-me attitude is manipulative, entitled, whiny, and most importantly, UNATTRACTIVE.
serenityha @ 600 said:
First off, I think Razib has irrefutably established that Razib has the best penis. Second, fuck all that shit. You know what? I don’t have the biggest penis in the world. Boo-fucking-hoo. The one I have works just fine.
Now that we got that out of the way, I’ll go so far as to say that late-capitalism emasculates ALL men that contact it. These lad mags (Maxxim, Stuff, FHM, etc.) do the same damage to the developing male psyche that all those crap ads in Cosmo, etc do to the female psyche. “Give her 45 mindblowing orgasms in 43 seconds!!!” They breed insecurity to feed off of that insecurity and sell products. (And in this regard, relatively less-educated DBD males have an advantage because they are less influenced by “metrosexual” consumer culture.)
But I don’t think that guilt-tripping desi women is the solution to this. If you want to know, I think the solution is to tell Madison Avenue and the bimbo who dissed you to fuck off and love yourself for who you are—because you are beautiful and perfect exactly the way you are. If you don’t know that, then no action taken by anybody else is going to do anything for you. (And that little piece of knowledge is the best gift any of us can give to each other.)
Razib—Mad props for #597. Cracked me up.
OK, well, only 603 posts, but our collective brains have reached an unimpeachable conclusion–we Desis should, in general, stick to dating other Desis, but the occasional outbreeding is OK if the gori is paricularly impressive.
‘Nite all.
I’ve been reading along for some time now with nothing new to add, until now. Rob, it seems like the Desis who want to stick with dating Desis will continue to do so, and the Desis who value ethnic origin less will continue to date people from various ethno-cultural backgrounds. What is particularly nice about this discussion is that so many people have explained their takes and stories in so many different ways. Thanks, Anna.
Note that when I refer to valuing ethnic origin less I refer to the various scales posted during the first half of this discussion, not a dis/regard towards one’s own (and other’s perceived) ethnic-cultural identity.
yeah, pankaj’s clearly a troll, but a damn good one at that. I’m still perplexed at this notion that desis should be marry each other for ‘the good of the community’ when as Razib pointed at way back the outmarriage rate for males/females is EQUAL for desis. So, dude, empirical evidence on the population as a whole contradicts your experience. I’m sorry, it sucks, but clearly if there are imbalances or emasculation(s) happening, plenty of desi guys are having no trouble whatsoever asserting themselves on the ‘field’ as it were on par with desi girls finding white/asian/black/hispanic dudes hot.
And, for the record, my anecdotal experience has been equal numbers of desi guys and girls dating people of other ethnic/religious backgrounds (this includes DBDs — yup, plenty of guys that came here for college had no trouble dating girls of different backgrounds). Your (supposed) experience is, I’m afraid, not one I’ve seen or can relate to.
Furthermore, your personal experience (if real and true — a big if) cannot be generalized to a large population with diverse backgrounds and experiences. Chill, let people be. rob, desis have no obligation or desire to “in general” do what you want them to — it’s their lives; where you come from does not have to restrict where you can go. In sum: we’re gonna do what we very well want to do, be we guys or girls, and you can cry and whine all you want; or, you have two options: 1) shape up, meet women, 2) get the fam. to set you up on ‘dates’ (the preferred arranged marriage route among the less conservative desi types). Either way, you’ll eventually find yourself someone to spend your life with, and then won’t need to waste our time with your rules on what we (desi men and women) should do. peace.
Oh, and many thanks Anna! The comments thread has certainly been a fascinating read (err, at times, skim). I’m sure an academic-type somewhere would find these anecdotes quite interesting and illuminating.
585 melbourne desi
What’s Ries and Trout? Please do tell us more.
Alright, so, does anyone here want to go out on a date with me?
🙂
I’d like to hear from some queer-identified folks, if possible. This thread has been way too heteronormative, for the most part, so far.
Razib – I’m the pale half of one such couple, and I’d really, really prefer my kids to be darker than me (for health and aesthetic reasons). I’m hoping the genes assort that way, we’ll see. 🙂
I hear you, Sari Virgin. My husband is a DBD and in the beginning each of us had some fears about the other’s expectations and beliefs. Luckily, we were serious about our relationship, and both sets of parents were/are very happy for us. Best of luck to you.
I get what you’re saying but let’s not forget that these mags are not only creating insecurities where there are none but also playing on organic insecurities since time immemorial. There are too many perceived love potions to list in every culture. That said, conversations about sexual prowess were usually more hush and certainly less manufactured.
A broader point/problem remains and that is that values and preferences have become increasingly segmented over time as cultures react to other cultures and form subcultures and so on. Markets pick up on the transformations and try to homogenize the subculture and everyone is sending confusing signals to everyone else when all we really wanna do is just shag each other silly.
Brown!Mocha!
i’m an ex-fob who has been in the us for many years now. i went to a boys-only school all through in india, and was brought up with all the usual conservative hangups about interacting with women.
i really think people make these things very complicated, there is one set of difficulties when you date across cultures, and another, maybe more boring set, if you date in your own culture, whatever that is, but to try and stereotype groups in their behavior is ridiculous. in the us, i’ve had long-term relationships with women older than me and younger than me, tall and short, those who have more degrees than me and those who have fewer. the only common thread has been that they have all been very smart. a smart woman is attractive to me, just by virtue of her smartness. other stuff doesn’t really matter. of course, like everybody else in this thread, i too wallow in my uniqueness, and sure, i date less than some of my non-desi friends. But i don’t view dating as a baseball season where the goal is to chalk up a large number in the w column, and am perfectly happy being single if there is nobody who catches my fancy (maybe i’m just fooling myself like this other delusional man?) sure, i’ve also been rejected for a variety of reasons, but there are definitely more sane people than there are bigots in this world (otherwise, the bigots would be called the sane ones, wouldn’t they?), and i take the constructive feedback where it is relevant, and move on where it isn’t.
sure, it would be great if desi men to be considered sexy the same way desi women are, if the onus of making the first move falls equally on women, and so on, but i strongly feel that for the kind of woman i am interested in, desi or not, these issues are just noise. (and in any case, desi women have their own set of social baggage that might understandably hold them back). so, i’d really suggest that people not mull over all the assorted politics, have confidence in themselves (that itself is attractive), and approach people they are interested in.
sorry for these platitudes but some of the recent comments in the thread have been a little strange, which is why i am making this comment. pankaj, take ownership and responsibility for your relationships instead of blaming other people or asking them to carry water for you. and your logic is backwards too. if you want to even things out, shouldn’t you invade the white communities, inseminate their women, and kill their cubs? it works for chimps and lions, why not us?
also, i am a frequent commenter on this blog, but decided to comment anonymously this time because i didn’t want my point to be derailed by a perception that i am just using this as an excuse to tout my enlightenment in an effort to woo the women here. good luck, everybody, and sorry if i wasn’t clear or insightful.
(underline mine)
Hear, hear, common sense perspective.
Would you be so judgemental if it came from a woman? Secondly, how the attractiveness of it any of your concern anyhow? The outright dismissal of the underlying forces at work (racism, emasculation, perceived differences in male and female minorities) and the naive response of “buck up and change yourself buddy” is what I’m questioning.
And more often that not, they get their candy asses handed to them for expressing those beliefs, as well they should.
Ak,
I personally think it’s window dressing to make oneself feel not as “merciless” Why do you think “It’s not you, it’s me” is so funny ? Any refusal/rejection of a potential suitor is will always contain within it a judgement call, of “you’re not good enough for me”
@cookiebrown 473,517: If the bewilderment is sincere, it is puzzling. The experience of growing up among other Indians in a post-independence cosmopolitan city, with the privilege of an exclusive deregionalizing-and-uncasting English language education, is different from the experience of growing up “brown” in a white-majority country. As all of us are “authentic products of our time, place, and experience” and when those times, places and experiences are fundamentally different, why is it so surprising that some of the multiple identities of DBDs which are “limiting” and “inadequate” for them might remain meaningful — and become liberating even — instead of disappearing from the identity mix of their ABD children?
For some, language is a bar, too, and for some linguistic groups, it drastically reduces the pool and drives people back to desh. And if you think it’s more horizontal than vertical, you haven’t heard the word “non-Bengali” uttered with extreme prejudice.
HMF, there i no point in arguing. clearly, you won’t even entertain a possibility that you can reject somebody without there being a judgment. i would say in this case, separate but equal is possible. i have definitely parted ways with men because our basic beliefs or chemistry were incompatible, but i do not think of them in any lesser way – in fact, sometimes i was actually upset that things could not have worked out. i don’t know why you’re so categorical in your statements so much of the time – but either way, it still doesn’t change the fact that, at least in my life, your theory doesn’t apply.
i agree, but sometimes, an ass is still as ass in all markets. but i guess if somebody let themselves be blinded by the packaging, they get what they ‘pay’ for. btw,
that tarkan is so hot these days 🙂 these are all good suggestions, spicy brown munda, though i would add that you should watch that show the pick-up artists coming up on vh1 – seems very handy for this sort of situation
spicy brown munda and melbourne desi – lage raho. may you both have many more culturally varied thappals to come 🙂
Oh for goodness sake. There are a billion of you, somehow your special and unique snowflakeness will survive. Somehow. If your parents didn’t want you to take part in the culture they moved you into (the US, Australia, Europe, Mars) they shouldn’t have moved you here, or when you came out of the oven they should have gone back “home.”
They didn’t you’re here. You’re going to find someone and get busy with them. True that person might be white, black, brown or gasp a different cast. But thems the breaks. If they/you/some random brown person on the street don’t like it they shouldn’t have come here. They should have remained in the homeland where all you’d have to chose from was other brown people just like you.
Ladies and gentlemen, 651!!!
I’d argue, you do think of them in a lesser way, in so far as their ability to coexist with you. Certainly you believe your basic beliefs are most fitting for you, otherwise they wouldn’t be basic beliefs, right? In a relative sense, your basic beliefs are “right”… for you. For example, lets say you abhor smoking, but a guy thinks a pack a week is ‘no biggie’. Any rejection of him based on that is clearly a judgement call, wrt to your basic belief that smoking is not good, correct?
That doesn’t mean a complete outright disrespect for every fiber in his being (which I think is how you’re trying to frame my statement), but it means as far as your standards and levels are concerned, they’re not up to par. I really don’t see the need to ambiguate it with terms like “chemistry” (and this is something that not only you do, in fact nearly every women in existence does)Ask 100 women to define ‘chemistry’ you get 100 differnt answers.
HMF, it’s not about what is ‘right’ for me – but yes, it’s about what works for me, what fits in with my life. for instance, i don’t particularly want kids – but i also think kids are great, i love being around them, and not only do i respect others for having kids, but i take joy in it as well. if i met a guy and our only issue was over whether or not to have kids, i would never EVER think badly of him, or even make any sort of judgment as to his decision to have children or its importance in his life; we all have deal-breakers, and this is not an insignificant one. it’s just an insurmountable difference, but it categorically would not come with any sort of subjective/objective right vs wrong observation, much less a judgment. i.e. i wouldn’t think of him as being not ‘up to par.’ since this is how i think, i also tend not to take rejection from men personally – unless there’s something blatant, i just figure there was insufficient compatibility. though maybe, from your comments, these rejectors are actually judging me, and i should take it personally 😉
chesmistry is itself an ambiguous term, because it sometines is so intangible, esp. when it is lacking – at least twice in my life, everything else about the guy seemed right, but something just was lacking – something in the way we communicated, or just plain co-exosted in each other’s company – without being able to pinpoint what that was, i chalked it up to chesmistry. despite trying, i really couldn;t even think of what else explained this osconnext
man, that was a bad paragraph. it should read :
chemistry is itself an ambiguous term, because it sometines is so intangible, esp. when it is lacking – at least twice in my life, everything else about the guy seemed right, but something just was lacking – something in the way we communicated, or just plain co-existed in each other’s company – without being able to pinpoint what that was, i chalked it up to chemistry. despite trying, i really couldn’t even think of what else explained this disconnect. yes, there are definitely situations where it’s used as a euphemism for something far more tangile and identifiable – but don’t be hating on the concept itself – it very much exists.
As I’d mentioned before, when we get rejected, that has a deeper impact than when we reject someone. I’m not invalidating Pankaj’s experiences, but I disagree with his idea that desi women are somehow responsible for “grounding” desi men by not dating non-desi men. He does not speak for me.
I myself have had experiences where it was very clear that the woman didn’t want to date me because I was Indian (mostly online). And that definitely hurt. But then, I have also broken up with someone because she was a habitual smoker and intimacy wasn’t fun. One could argue that rejecting someone because s/he is Indian is worse than rejecting someone because s/he smokes, or one can intellectualize the differences and similarities, but the bottom-line is that rejection hurts. Period.
I sometimes challenged women on that, but I realized that I can’t guilt someone into dating me if she has a certain image/assumptions associated with Indians, or if she is acting in a racist way. Instead of trying to change someone, it’s better to find people who are already there. So, I focused on my interests and activities I enjoy, and met women who are more open to dating people like me. I can assure Pankaj that even though it’s not a level playing field (when is it in life?), it’s not impossible to find people who are open to inter-racial dating. Granted it’s probably a little easier in cities like NY or SF, than say, in the bible-belt.
This all reminds me of something that happened when I was in college. I was dancing with a group of girlfriends (mixed but predominantly white group). A group of black guys came over and started trying to dance up behind us and so on. Until… one of these guys happened to glance over and see, in the crowd, a group of white guys doing the exact same thing to a group of dancing black women. The reaction was immediate. He basically, said “what the – look at that” to his friends and they immediately left to run over and claim “their women”. It was fine to try to get with us (we’re sluts for practice anyway right?). But, white guys with THEIR WOMEN. It was an OUTRAGE.
I would say that maybe this kind of thing is some result of the minority experience. But, we goris have guys like this in our community too. They usually call those guys racists or rednecks for their horribly 1950’s attitude toward “race-mixing” and people after “their women”. These horrible, horrible white people also were renowned for “using” women of other racists as their playthings to keep white women “pure”. So, white men that do this are racist scumbags? But, desi men can do it because….? I call bs. Brown men, be careful that you are not creating yourselves in the image of racists that you deplore when they are white.
@my last post, “using women of other racists” should say “using women of other races”.
Sorry
OK, since it was me who was quoted in the post, I figure I might as well explain where I’m coming from.
The problems I have are simple: 1, despite being “Very Indian” in my background, I come from a very liberal South Indian family, so I never fit in with the bollywood/bhangra crowd at college. As a result, I joined a greek house and was viewed as a “sell-out” by them, this despite the fact I was active in the Hindu society. But the single biggest problem I have encountered is that when I encounter another desi in a mixed-race crowd (especially attractive ones) they seem intent on ignoring you, as if afraid that we will be lumped together just because we’re both brown. People go so far as to pointedly ignore or be rude to the other browns in the crowd, as if they are afraid of confirming the cliches about browns sticking together. At any rate, I don’t approach many of the hot desi girls I see out on the town, because their ice queens stares shut me down before I even want to try. White, black and asian girls are infinitely more approachable. Also, with a desi girl there is that unspoken expectation of a long term relationship, so I’m sure that scares them off as well.
As for my original comments, they were mostly based on what I see as an imbalance in the relative attractiveness among mixed-raced couples. Speaking purely anecdotally, it seems like its always a more attractive minority. I have noticed this especially here in DC, but it seems generally true. Any thoughts?
I really don’t see the differnce between ‘right for me’ and ‘works for me’, both are relativistic terms.
But it is a judgement call, because if it prevents a further relationship, the underlying message is, “Your belief that human beings should reproduce and have children, while might be a noble one, is not the ‘right’ one, if you’d like to have a relationship with me.
You should. Just not in a absolute sense. I agree with your point about incompatibility, but such imcompatibilities are defined by mismatched belief systems, resulting from one (or both) parties judging the others as inferior, as it relates to the relationship
Pankaj, you’ve clearly had a rough go growing up, and that sucks for you. That said, pretty much everything you’ve written is, in my opinion, some grade A bullshit. No, desi men do not develop “regressively” because of the crippling emasculation and racism they face. Here is a news flash: desi women deal with compounded identities as well. Just because YOU didn’t notice it or realize it didn’t mean that we weren’t going through a whole lot of racist, sexist BS as well. Furthermore, I meet PLENTY of well-adjusted and wonderful desi guys, so clearly this is not some unique phenomena inherent to the ABD male experience.
The entire line about SES development — totally irrelevant and unscientific. It’s just a bizarre extrapolation to justify why you think you are owed a debt by ABD women. Not only that, I pity DBD women everywhere who then become the “mates” you go hunting for in your avoidance of the “scary” ABD woman.
And lastly, desi women are not responsible for your bad experiences, nor are we responsible for “grounding” or “saving” you. In the words of Audre Lorde, “We are not responsible for our oppression, but we are responsible for our liberation.” No one owes you one GD thing, and I am SICK of desi women being the pinatas for the insecurities and awkwardness that SOME desi men harbor. We are not your “culture” bearers, and we are not the reason you are feeling “developmentally challenged.” (Why on earth would we want to date someone “developmentally challenged” anyway?)
:: chachaji, you know I always enjoy discussing with you, but I think your examples are too recent, and also, I don’t see how your example of Vancouver Sikhs relates to your earlier point re: criminality and out-marriage. Perhaps I was misunderstanding and you can clarify?
:: No Desh, you’re right, let’s avoid hair 🙂 But please add me to the “is not set on kids” list.
:: Sravas, welcome to the world of grownups. I really hope that this will also mean treating the white women you meet with respect instead of looking at them solely as “practice material” for that ideal Jatt Sikh girl your family plans for your to meet. This is a great time in life to expand how you conceptualize and think of beauty, but it’s also a time to stand up for what’s right, even if it goes against what’s expected.
::
Not all of us 🙂 Although you did say most, so I’m just teasing.
:: delirium @ 445:
I’m probably projecting a little bit, but am more generalizing from personal exchanges with hotheaded guys waiting to use the machine. They would NEVER harass a guy, but they feel comfortable harassing women. It’s of course not applicable to everyone; just the people who I tended to run into in the weight room.
to Hillside @ 631.
Gah! You’re making me more paranoid. I’m in the DC area too and I know how people talk about mix-race couples. I try to look my best because I know people will be evaluating my looks with this stereotype that the white one in such a pairing is somehow ugly or defective. Like I don’t have enough image issues to deal with as a woman.
HMF, in some situations, i agree that there is a judgment call, even if the approach is to call it incompatibility. still, in others, i cannot agree that there is always a judgment to be made, even vis-a-vis the relationship. we’ve both laid out our arguments in sufficient detail, but i think this is pretty much the end of this discussion point…
No, but I’ll offer an anecdote as to what I think pankaj was trying to hit at, with the disclaimer that it doesn’t apply to all:
I was at a bar with a mixed race couple, white guy and desi girl, when somehow the discussion turned towards male/female relationships, and in particular how Indian men are less likely to approach, have more inhibitions, fears, etc.. The lady went up to her boyfriend, and said, “Hey John/Bob/Bill (dont remember the name), do your impression of how an Indian guy does it” and the white guy did an exaggerated slow walk, slumped shoulders, stare at the girl with ogly eyes, then when her gf looked at her, he hunked his head down turned and ran away. A laugh was had by all.
I think it’s exactly this sort of complicitness in the white/American model of racism/emasculation exhibited by the female is what pankaj would hope deteriorate. No, no one owes anyone anything, but behavior like this certainly isn’t helpful, or even healthy in my view (as this woman was probably suffering from some serious self-hating issues, did she think her brothers and male cousins were afflicted with the same indian guy disease?)
HMF, I’m not sure I understand what your point is. Could you please explain? If I date someone because she enjoys yoga like I do, then that is as easily a judgment call, as is if I don’t date someone because she smokes. We all judge each other based on what we like or dislike, and what we think would work for us in a relationship. Are you trying to say that all judging is bad and we should just be with the first person who comes along? Do you never praise anyone? Because praising someone is also a judgment.
I think I tend to see things as compatible or non-compatible (or different), rather than right or wrong. There are different ways to see the same thing, and if you see it as right/wrong, then you are entitled to that. If I reach a stage where I don’t have any compatibility preferences whatsoever, then I probably would also be in a Himalayan cave, not here in this maya. 😉
i think this is actually very common, esp. since many desi populations on campus are majority north indian (even people from the non-hindi speaking regions, like gujarat and punjab tend to gravitate towards the bollywood-based music and dance) so regional variations are often not respected, or at the very least, accepted only as some sort of PC ‘accomodation.’ on the other hand, when i went to a temple u. cultural show, there was a predominance of malayali culture, which i thought was nice.
not just amongst the desi girls – when i was telling a guy friend about how it might be nice to be with somebody who had a less conventional/JD-MD-MBA profession, i was told it just wasn’t practical, or ‘right’
Sorry, I don’t mean to go in for seconds, but there were more posts after I finished the long one (above). Pankaj, this is not the definition of systematic societal emasculation. This is the definition of a bad dating experience. It also sounds like you had some expectations which may be considered homogenizing/unrealistic of this woman simply because her family shares a similar backstory. To be clear, I’m not arguing that racism (and by extension, emasculation) don’t exist. I’m just saying that I think you’ve taken your individual experiences and then extrapolates a cumbersome, unruly, and inaccurate theory onto ABD women everywhere.
Harbeer, more power to you!
rob, what thread have you been reading? The general feeling I’ve picked up is that about 50% of posters would prefer to date desi, and the other 50% have no racial/ethnic requirement at all. Aside from Pankaj, there’s been little conversation about what’s preferable. The reason this has veered desi-a-desi is because it was framed that way, not because there is some group agreement on what is preferable.
HMF, I’m not trying to pick a fight, but the general answer is NO. I have lots of guys who I love really fiercely as my friends, but we’re just not compatible or attracted to one another in a romantic/lover-love kinda way. That does not in any way diminish our preexisting relationship. Similarly, rejecting someone I meet is rarely an outgrowth of my general contempt for them; it is usually because there is a “deal-breaker” issue regarding our compatibility. My advice would be not to take rejection/preferences so closely to heart. Are there more nefarious reasons for why people are attracted to each other or not? Absolutely. But not everyone is out there to break your heart.
Razib, yes, but I think among most Jatt Sikhs there’s no sense that Jatt = identity within the caste system, therefore someone could be (ostensibly) jatt and sudra/khatri, etc.
TFrankly, there are more important things than what color, sex and spiecies an Indian girl is dating!
No, my point was that all declarations of incompatibility and lack of chemistry do indeed contain an element of judgement.
No, my point was that all declarations of incompatibility and lack of chemistry do indeed contain an element of judgement.
Yup. So does any declaration of love and attraction to someone.
hillside, I understand that these are personal reasons and it’d be ridiculous to expect you to define them precisely. I just wanted to point out that there are many, many non-desi girls who are not religious, or if religious would not think that people from other religions are doomed to hell. Those sorts of beliefs are not really in the mainstream.
(For the record, I am the non-desi half of a mixed couple, planning on raising our children as Hindus)
And where did I say it diminishes anything? But it is a judgement call in so far as ‘romantic/lover-love kinda way’ is concerned with respect to you. Why is it that most women always want to have the best of both worlds and be liked by all, and not come off like the ‘bad guy’ You make a judgement call based on what works for you, no need to apologize for it.
ak, I would respect you and invite you to my bhangra blowout anyday 😉
Count me in among the desi people who are not keen on having kids. I could probably be persuaded to adopt one, if it comes to that.
am i blind or what? not only would i not have found that little caricature funny, but i don’t even find it accurate. from personal experience, the majority of guys who approach me are desi, leading me to think that desi guys are perfectly capable of chatting up the ladies (and if they have not, it is possibly attributable to my reserved/bitchy social incompetence, which would discourage any guy, not just desi). of course, maybe i should also be viewing this from the point of view of how many desi men who wanted to approach me, but have not done. still, it’s sad that there is such a generalisation about brown men. and HMF is right to say that it’s not helping brown men with their game – i don’t see why it’s OK to have this attitude about brown men, but not about white men.
I’m not trying to play the “good guy,” I’m just saying that my judgment is not a statement of someone’s “lesser” existence, which is what I read in your comments above. (Perhaps this is not what was meant, and I just misinterpreted?). Particularly because I HAVE lived with my guy friends, so even coexistence in the sense of cohabitation is not really an issue, you know?
Thank you for that point, which I agree with. I specifically phrased my post the way I did to allow for the possibility of dating non-religious non-desis. But my personal experience shows that issues of religious difference are often glossed over to begin with, and then re-appear later after marriage and children. Suddenly the non-desi wants the kids to be baptized or visit Church or synagogue, and I would just not feel comfortable with any of those things.
Also, with all due respect, according to the understanding of Hinduism I have been taught, you may raise your children as Hindus, but they wouldn’t be Hindus, because Hindus must have a Hindu mother. That being said, more power to you for your understanding.
So are you suggesting that matrifocality survived genetically through slavery, and three hundred years? I would say, even if W. African societies are matrifocal, that is a complete coincidence.
i’m implying some cultural forms survived.