…because according to some commenters, apparently, it isn’t. Suddenly there are commentS about hot Desi girls choosing white guys over their own— and I emphasize the plural aspect of “comment”, because that’s what caught my attention– this wasn’t some one-off virtual rant. Frankly, Mr. Shankly, I’m shocked. While some of the people who are leaving the eyebrow-raising statements seem to be new, I’m fully aware that the normal pattern of Sepia engagement is:
Random Googling –> Sepia? What the-? –> Hmmm, interesting –> Lurking –> and then finally, posting.
If these anti-miscegenation fans have followed that tried-and-true process, then they’d be aware that there are more than a few members of the Mutiny community who are the products of interracial unions; I can’t imagine that they’d be so tactless as to disparage such pairings when they reflect someone like Siddhartha, Desidancer or SemiDesiMasala’s ancestry.
So, maybe these are just mischief-instigating trolls, having some wicked fun via drive-by hate-spewing.
Or are they?
I think there’s more to this– and that’s why I’m publishing this post. Let’s have it out, then. Some of you seem to be in the mood to REALLY tell us what you think, so here’s your deluxe chance. Almost everyone here is anonymous. 🙂 It’s safe to be honest.
The following comments were left on my post about a woman named Aarti being chosen as one of the cuter people on the Hill:
hillside: Also I’ve never dated an Indian girl either, probably partly because so many of the hot ones like the two on this list are into white dudes. [sm]
Sheetal: (referring to comment above)
I’ve noticed this too. What is up with that? [sm]
Sheetal followed that comment by excerpting the following portion of the Hill article, making sure to highlight certain significant words by “bolding” them.
Skipper is a native of Chicago but both parents are from India — something that had worried her when it came to the issue of marriage. The handsome man in church soon became her boyfriend, but he was American and Caucasian, far from what she thought her parents would ever accept.
Okay, loud and clear. Jamie Skipper is Desi and she married a Caucasian (never mind that Desis are Caucasian, too). Yet another commenter seemed to agree with hillside and Sheetal:
Kannan: its interesting that you bring this up..We have parallels with the asian community. I’ve heard/seen that before. Hot lil Korean spinner would rather hook up with tall lanky white dude than someone from her race and its kind of common because I know a lot of my asian brothers who want to date from their race gripe and bitch about it:) Its almost like an invisible social hierarchy And the same goes for desi guys, I have a lot of friends who date white girls just because they think it brings them more social value” Look at me FOB minority guy pulling from the majority race” However for me its never really been race, its whether I was attracted to the person or not and it so happens I have never gone brown 🙂 [sm]
Kannan, I think your final sentence encapsulates how most of us feel, but that doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t explore the other sentiments I’ve highlighted.
SM is at its best when we are honestly, openly and sometimes painfully hashing out the issues that our community/others refuse to acknowledge or discuss; I didn’t put this post up in order to invite you to pillory “hillside” and “Sheetal”. They weren’t abusive, they were blunt. I wrote this post because I wanted to know how the rest of you felt. The thing is, I am almost certain that they aren’t alone and that more of you agree with them than we realize. Maybe it’s time to call ourselves out.
To be brutally honest, I’ve been there. Years ago, I crushed on Desi guys who only seemed to “swing one way”; I’ve been let down gently by being told that:
If I did date Indian girls, you’d totally be my type.
I’m just not attracted to dark skin…I like pink nipples (!) (this from someone even darker than me)
and the best one, ever,
Um, I could never go out with you because it would be like dating my sister. White girls don’t remind me of relatives.
And what do black and Asian girls remind you of? It’s so telling that they almost never factor in to these cringe-inducing statements, it’s always white girls who are “preferred”, which invites doubt about the sincerity behind someone’s “type”.
Predictably, each of those instances left me feeling wounded. It didn’t help matters that every time my Mother came across some seemingly eligible, compatible (read: also raised-away-from-Mallus) ummarried boy, his mother would sorrowfully lament that
“He already has girlfriend. White. Enne chayum?”.
Mom would come home, grumpy. “The second they graduate from law or med school, they run after a vellambi. Chey!”
I knew why my Mother said something so annoyingly ignorant. Encounters with unavailable, suitable boys combined with input from her coworkers, a good portion of whom are African-American, to create an explosive cocktail of hurt; soon, my Mother absorbed that odious complex about “successful POC going white”, especially after the cutest brown resident at her hospital took up with some “white nurse who wasn’t even pretty” instead of someone Indian/Pinay/Chinese/Black (all of whom were/are allegedly gorgeous, in comparison). When they heard about the brown and white coupling, my Mother’s African American office mate snorted, “typical” while Ma shook her head and sighed. She told me all about it, bitterly.
“Mommy, maybe they’re in love?”
“Podi, penne. Stop being blonde.”
“Mom you’re being unreasonable.”
“You are never going to find a boy. There are no educated Malayalee boys with three degrees. If there are, they are only interested in the white girls.”
“I don’t care how many degrees…remember? I like engineers. They usually have just one.”
“Chinammamma is right. That’s a recipe for disaster. Boy should have more degrees than girl-“
“- and be three years older, and three inches taller and blah blah blah. Spare me, Ma.”
“Make fun all you want, those things are accepted for a reason- they work. You want your husband to resent you?”
“I thought you didn’t care if I got married?”
“I don’t. It would save me money. I’d rather travel than waste all that, or put the down-payment on a house for you. I have nothing to prove to your Father’s friends and I’ve never been interested in outdoing them. I just…saw Mercy’s son and thought he was so cute. My grandchildren would have been so cute!”
All right-y, then. What’s hilarious is that my Mother had to alter her theory a year later, when “Mercy’s son” got engaged to a Punjabi girl he met in law school:
“Sho! Anyone but a Malayalee penne, eh?”
“What, Ma…now there’s a hierarchy? White, then North Indian, then South?” 😀
I didn’t really make peace with any of this until I met an adorable white guy who confessed that he liked me…only to hear me gracefully blurt out that I only date brown boys. It’s true, I can’t help it. I always have gone brown and probably always will. It’s just what I am attracted to– black hair, dark eyes, tan skin (fur optional).
The epiphany I had at that moment, while staring in to wounded blue eyes and rapidly batting blonde lashes, brought me closure and a bit of enlightenment; duh, no one has to justify whom they are attracted to, but hopefully they are acting out of their purest feelings– we can’t help whom we fall for, but we can call ourselves out if we’re nursing some bizarre colonial hangover or other therapy-requiring-issue (full disclosure: I have a family member who ONLY dates white guys, because they are the polar opposite of her strict, very Desi Dad).
There are other aspects to the complicated issue of human mixology, too– one of my dearest friends is finally in a blissful relationship. With a black man. After being repeatedly rejected by Desi guys for her tan skin and curves, she has given up on making her parents’ dreams of an Indian son-in-law come true. Instead, she found someone who will accept her just as she is; she has decided to do what makes her happy– and I am thrilled for her. I’m also broken-hearted that essentially, she has to keep her love closeted. Additionally, I would enjoy beating the fecal matter out of the last Desi she went on a blind date with, who brilliantly said, “you’d be so pretty if you weren’t so dark!”, while recoiling from her. But I’m protective and furious like that.
Look. This stuff is real. It happens. Let’s talk about it, if you are in the mood. I’m opening a safe space for exploration, if you are so inclined. You don’t have to be P.C. or fake, you just have to be respectful and courteous; controversial topics are impossible to fisk if we’re not, right?
A point that needs to be made more directly – and it underlies some of the comments here – is that the sexism in minority immigrant communities that females perceive – is often a reaction to the racism in the host community. Racism does tend to emasculate the minority male, and it has both subjective and objective consequences.
Pankaj makes a good point about immigrant communities restricting full female choice of partners in the interest of ‘maintaining’ the community – both the Italians and the Jews, for example, maintained their communities into the third generation through a form of endogamy, and in a patrilineal family structure that both the host community and the immigrant community shared – this can only be done by restricting female partner choice to within the particular immigrant community.
Imagine what would happen if immigrant women married out in a patrilineal society – they would become part of the ‘larger community’, and their children would too. On the other hand, the racist host society would resist intermarriage of their females with the immigrant men, and then what would happen? The single men from immigrant communities would remain partner-less, while the women were marrying ‘out’. One possible facet of the picture is a society of Bachelor Uncles – another picture is the Mexican Sikhs, still another is what you see today in the black and Hispanic communities in the US, and, to an extent, in the Vancouver Sikhs – high levels of ‘criminality’ and incarceration in the men, and a society consisting of largely female-headed households, in which the young women still resent the ‘sexism’ of the young men.
I think what Pankaj is asking for is a more level ‘playing field’ – as long as there is this racism-driven emasculation of young desi men, he cannot bring himself to endorse widespread dating of the oppresive other by females he regards as from ‘his community’. Not saying I fully endorse this thought, but here is one way that racism in the host community generates sexism in the immigrant community. Immigrant females typically miss this connection.
DQ – If you’re going to try and maneouvre me into saying that men and women have equal criteria to define attraction, you’re a little off, because I never asserted that. In fact, writing poetry and collecting art is probably harder than building muscle in some sense, the point is you callously spit out suggestions, where as if the genders were reversed, it would have been shock and awe.
please point them out, and show me where there wasn’t a backlash of replies.
Well, ya don’t. Because one ABD males life experiences can be vastly different from another.
Rob @ 548: What is SES?
I think we should stop feeding the troll. And if Pankaj isn’t a troll, and he really is just so emotionally-damaged that he sounds like one, Harbeer is right. No one can make you inferior without your consent.
He doesn’t get sexual reparations from brown girls just because he’s “delayed”; that’s just insane– and not our problem. Whoever mentioned his Mother, might have nailed it– just because she went above and beyond to coddle and swaddle, we don’t have to. No one owes him anything, except for respect and courtesy, and he’d get more of the former if his rants weren’t so illogical, irrational and just plain weird. Truth hurts, just like self-imposed emasculation, don’t it?
I think that there is a lot behind what I am saying. i have seen a lot of inappropriate relationships out there and have had grounding issues of my own. BUt i have connected with some amazing white women and have a lot to be happy about. But I believe in what I have to say and will continue to get my point across.
SES is socioeconomic status
Would anyone ever say something like this to the myriad of women who’ve told stories of how they were called ‘fat’ and ‘dykes’ and other such things? how would it look like if I said, “well you were called fat, then lose weight, take responsibility for yourself” I’d be drawn and quartered. i would say something equivalent to women – as in, start looking in the right places (but not telling them to lose weight etc). why would anybody want somebody who doesn’t want them, or even worse, ridicules them? i think the point is that you shouldn’t look to others for validation, and even if you do, some places are more right than others.
chachaji, why not ‘marry out’ in the US? as it has happened with other ethnicities in this country, it can very well happen with desis, such that in the long run (and has e.g. punjabi sikhs in CA – over time), the ethnic distinctions will be so diluted as to be irrelevant. if this is an argument for preservation of ethnicity or race, i think we have more than one billion people back in the desh to see to that for us.
Harbeer, sorry–SES is “socio-economic status”
Are we quoting the Princess Diaries now? Show me where this cavalier, ‘cmon, just shutup and take responsibility” attitude is ever successfully applied against womenfolk, in particular here. No way Jose, I’m not saying it should be applied there, I’m saying if it’s not applied in one case, it shouldnt be in another.
AK, fair enough, but you’d still hold the ‘perp’ accountable, and at the very least deem him/her unworthy of friendship.
I thought that was Eleanor Roosevelt?
And someone upthread did say something similar to a GIRL (shocker!) about not calling out stupid relatives, etc.
::
Harbeer, you’re my favorite new commenter. Go on with your blunt self. 😉
I do believe what I am writing and I know how hard it is to work. I know that success in the real world depends on a lot of soft skills and those soft skills are largely due to personal development. I have seen what a tough work environment can do to an indian man and i have come accross varying degrees of emasculation amongst different people that I have met. I feel strongly that while this situation exists, that as much as possible should be done to retain power amongst the indian community, and selective dating is one way to do that.
HMF – sure, but only because it’s a judgment of somebody else that comes with a superiority-inferiority connotation. if, however, they rejected them because they were incompatible – but no judgment – then, no, i wouldn’t say they were unworthy. it comes down to how/why this ‘rejection’ took place.
“And someone upthread did say something similar to a GIRL (shocker!) about not calling out stupid relatives, etc.”
Where?
HMF – first off, the suggestions were not ‘callously spat out’. I would indeed offer similar suggestions (and have, privately) to anyone who feels rejected by the opposite sex. It really doesn’t take much – we all know that – just some confidence. And the main reason you would not see similar suggestions made to a female desi on this site is because female desis don’t go about demanding that male desis stop dating ‘out’ in order to ‘ground’ them, comfort them, and prevent them from suffering from ‘developmental delay’. The entitlement Pankaj is exhibiting does not exist among female desis. Period. (Anyone want a spare red flag?)
Pankaj – waaaaaiiit a minute. So you’re connecting with wonderful white females but you want desi women to stop dating white men?
This is such a thin line I can sneeze over it and break it apart. This ‘incompatibility’ will always go hand in hand with judgement, in a relative sense, anyone gets rejected because they rejector feels the rejectee is ‘not good enough’ in some sense.
First, it has not happened nearly as much as one might think with other immigrant communities – there are third-generation Italians and Jews and Irish. I’m all in favor of marrying ‘out’, but the idea that the ethnic distinctions will be ‘diluted’ enough to be ‘irrelevant’ goes against both history and genetics. There are people right here, on this thread, who are offspring from intermarriages, the point being they are here.
Not faulting you, I used to think like that once upon a time myself.
I know that many, my detractors specifically, think that I don’t work for a living, but I do– and I have to be up in less than five hours. Pardon me if I don’t scour 500 comments to prove something I know I read several hours ago, right this second. I’ll have to get back to you on that.
Good night, all…and thanks for
a) proving 3V wrong on the “150” call 😉
b) a wonderfully addictive discussion (proof of how irresistible it is– I’m typing “one last comment”, long after I should have been asleep.)
Let me just get this out of the way first, I’m sure that parts of this post will be construed as racist, sexist, chauvinist, specist, endogamist, eugenecist and every other -ist under the sun, I apologize in advance as I do not mean them to hurt anyone. I also apologize for the rambling disjointed nature of the post.
Firstly, I should explain what kind of perspective this post is coming from. I’m a 17 year old(I know) Jatt Sikh from the Bay Area. My family is surprisingly liberal on some things, while harshly orthodox with others. I’ve gone to private Christian schools my entire life, having had only maybe 10 non related Desi classmates in my entire career. The vast majority of Desi peers I have come in contact with have been either my relatives, or people I have met through UCLA prefreshman processes.
On the subject of dating nondesi’s, I must admit I am guilty of double standards. I have gone out with white girls, and will probably continue to do so. I have a desperate weakness for white brunettes with green eyes around 5’5″. However, as much as I would date and play around with said gori’s, I would never marry one. I attribute this directly to my upbringing, having been told what kind of girl I will marry since I was about 3 years old. I am expected to marry a Sikh, Punjabi, Jatt girl, with a good family, a professional degree, and good SES. Perhaps now may be the time to mention that I myself am pretty stereotypical. I’m a tall, light skinned Jatt, going to UCLA for a Biology degree and eventually med school. I played football, got straight A’s, and did everything else that a good Punjabi boy was expected to do. In fact, the only thing I have ever done to displease my mother is probably dating white girls. I’ve been chastised time and again, with cries of “What if people see you!”, “What will the community think?” and “What will we do if your Bibi-Ji finds out?” Indeed, I think it is things like this that have influenced my ideas about love, sex and marriage. While I find no problem in falling in love with a white girl, or having sex with one, I could never picture myself marrying one, a dichotomy that strikes me as warped even as I type it. I find myself prey to the old idea that Gori are for practice, while Kuria are for marriage.
And even as I say that, I find my stomach turning every time I see a Desi chick with a non desi man. Something within me(deep seated racism no doubt), rebels against the idea. I chalk this up to the homogeneity of my own family. You see, my family are entirely Punjabi Sikh Jatt. I only found out two weeks ago that there were Sikh that were not Jatt! Thusly, my entire view of relationships amongst desis, and especially amongst my own subgroup, is referenced against this staunchly racist, homogenous group that is my own family. A relationship that goes against this pattern strikes me as odd, and dare I say it, unnatural, even though I myself have dallied in such heresy(sarcasm doesn’t translate well over the internet, and I’m already stepping on enough toes as it is).
This discomfort seems to be a largely visceral reaction, as on an intellectual level I have no problem with such relationships, and I in fact applaud anyone brave enough to forsake tradition and follow their heart. However, I still have never been able to fully overcome my initial displeasure and reaction upon seeing such a couple. Maybe it has to do with some idea of white men stealing our women ( this would make sense as although I have the same reaction with a Desi man/white woman pairing, it is on a much smaller scale), I’m not really sure. No-matter where this reaction comes from, it still galls me that it occurs, even while I myself am guilty of the same act in reverse.
I now realize that I have until now focused entirely upon interracial relationships as occurring solely between Desi’s and whites, but I assure you that the same reaction occurs with Desi’s dating African America,s east asians, etc. I think that perhaps it may be because I myself only find myself attracted to Desi’s and whites. This has little to do with anything I have said up to now, but I feel as if it bears saying all the same. I am a hearty believer in the idea that people are attracted to certain traits, and that this is in no real way under their control, surprising given my own reaction. I for example don’t find myself attracted to african american women, or to darker skinned desi girls(sorry :(). I also find myself falling prey to the stereotype of preferring the thinner Indian girl with straight hair, sorry but it’s just what lights my fire so to speak. Although I myself have curly hair, I think that many young ABD’s have simply been raised in an environment where Straight hair, tiny waists and fair skin are what it is considered attractive. But then again, what’s wrong with that? I work out daily, take care of my skin, and have shaved myself down 50lbs to 11% bodyfat, so why shouldn’t I expect a potential partner to be attractive and athletic?
In conclusion, I’ve run out of things to say, and have only ended up confusing myself, and I suspect adding very little to the discussion. I’m sorry if I offended anyone, just trying to show some of my ideas, and perhaps give the perspective of all the naysaying stereoptyical ABD’s that everyone has been alluding to over the course of the discussion.
Well, maybe his reasons were a bit out there, like I said before, I don’t fully agree with all of them. But you do find many desi women saying things like “desi guys don’t like me because… [insert reason here]” and I have yet to see one of them met with “shutup and live with it” for example #90. Secondly, I did find your tone very cavalier and callous, but that’s just my read.
dq, I have had some incredible relationships and have done a lot of thought on this. The last person I was involved with was a redsox fan and a phish head – so we had this redsox/ yankees, pearl jam phish thing going. AN unbelieveable connection. And i have come to call those connections redsox/yankees connections. Those are ok as long as the guy (or girl) is racially clean. However, it is my oppinion that it is in the interest of the indian population to restrict other dating until indian males as a population are more developed. I think that thinking of the jewish population and their behavior can shed a lot of light on the issue.
A point that needs to be made more directly – and it underlies some of the comments here – is that the sexism in minority immigrant communities that females perceive – is often a reaction to the racism in the host community. Racism does tend to emasculate the minority male, and it has both subjective and objective consequences.
i don’t believe this. are brownz in brownland less sexist and patriarchal cuz they’re the majority/dominant race? doubt it. frankly, i think the ‘racism emasculates minority males’ is a cop-out, just like ‘sexism is a reaction to colonialism.’ the koran doesn’t have crapping about beating your wife ‘appropriately’ cuz europeans oppressed muslims (point of fact, this was written when muslims and middle easterners enslaved white europeans). north indian hindus didn’t take the message implicit in their sacred texts to imply sati because of colonialism.
both the Italians and the Jews, for example, maintained their communities into the third generation through a form of endogamy, and in a patrilineal family structure that both the host community and the immigrant community shared
as a point of fact, traditionally jews have been predicated on matrilineal descent (though the family is patrifocal). some reform jews in the past generation have resurrected patrilineal descent, but that is in part a reaction/adaptation to intermarriage.
Pankaj, Dude–you are my hero–but, knock it off w/ the white chicks already!
so we’ll be even when you finish this degree 🙂 though even if the number of degrees counts, i feel it becomes irrelevant after the second degree is completed…i hear you on the lifestyle bit – somebody once told me, as they told your sister, how selfish it is to not have kids. in my opinion, having kids may be the height of selfishness – obviously it stems from one’s own desires or needs, not from those of an unborn child begging to be created. if anything, not having kids would be, in my case, the most unselfish thing i could do. i suspect that that comment to your sister, if by a relative, was for selfish reasons of their own – to see their progeny. having kids is a huge issue – prob. the biggest one in a relationship – there’s no way you can be on a sufficiently compatible wavelength if you disagree upon this. but take heart – as you know, there are women who are not conscious of their biological clock, so i’m sure you’ll find the right one eventually 🙂
Nina P – marriage is not a goal for me, so sorry about that 🙂
there are third-generation Italians and Jews and Irish.
the cases aren’t analogous. jewish intermarriage rates were less than 10% before 1965. they shot up in the 15 years after ’65 so that they are 30-50% now. irish and italians started intermarrying earlier, especially with other catholic groups. only a small minority of people of irish and italian descent in the USA are ‘pure’ now.
Since you asked, I think this is what Anna was referencing.
455
thanks rob, it is good to know that someone was in my corner.
Alright, Pank, you’ve been outed. No one but a troll could have written that last one. Good night and good laughs.
Razib, right on patrifocal and matrilineal Jewish families. The point on endogamy and perceived sexism among Jewish women remains valid, though.
Female perception of sexism occurs in immigrant communities regardless of whether the historical community was egalitarian, or even matriarchal, so one component of it has to be a reaction to the new environment.
Are you kidding me with this shit? Racially clean? Why are ANY of you taking this person seriously?
No, it is in the interest of the Indian population to restrict stupidity, egregious senses of entitlement and hypocrisy, whether or not certain Indian males are grounded or developed. What are you talking about, Pankaj? And by what batshit-metric will our oppressed-by-you-if-you-get-your-petulant-way abide, so that we know when we can stop restricting dating and if Indian males are developed enough?
Why is the onus on Indian women to save the population? What about the men, Pankaj? That “grounding/emotionally-ret@rded” speech you keep sniveling is a cop-out. Indian males get to date white girls, but Indian girls can’t date white guys, because we owe you our allegiance, until you tell us otherwise? Get over yourself.
pankaj, yours – and sravas’ – (rather confused, to say the least) attitudes towards dating white vs brown women would make this brown woman lean towards not dating you – and take heart in the fact that it has nothing to with race!
chachaji, i do not agree. the groups to which you pointed are rather recent immigrations – some people still self-identify with those ethnicities since marrying outside of those communities is a relatively recent phenomenon. however, with the initial immigrants to this country, it is a bit clearer : british roots are not even spoken of (albeit, partly for political reasons). furthermore, even with the more recent western ethnicities, i can point to almost all my white friends who have roots in those ethnicities, with the exception of jewish, and say that not only are their traditional ethnic practises not followed, but their ethnicities are mixed to the point of not identifying with any one in particular. it is a matter of time, and i’m not convinced that there is any point to preserving the ethnic ‘purity’ amongst desis, at least not in this country.
HMF, as hard as it may be for you to believe, there are some people who are able to maintain that line quite clearly.
I thought maybe Pankaj’s English just wasn’t that good–“racially clean” is pretty bad regardless, though, I would agree.
Female perception of sexism occurs in immigrant communities regardless of whether the historical community was egalitarian, or even matriarchal, so one component of it has to be a reaction to the new environment.
chach, name an immigrant community which was matriarchal. not matrilineal, or matrifocal, but matriarchal. there are none. as a point of fact i do think being marginalized can lead toward more sociopathic behavior, in which i include sexism. but i don’t think americo-brownz, with their oh-so-satisfied-materialistic-selves (as attested over & over) count.
ponditi writes: No, it is in the interest of the Indian population to restrict stupidity, egregious senses of entitlement and hypocrisy, whether or not certain Indian males are grounded or developed. What are you talking about, Pankaj? And by what batshit-metric will our oppressed-by-you-if-you-get-your-petulant-way abide, so that we know when we can stop restricting dating and if Indian males are developed enough?
Why is the onus on Indian women to save the population? What about the men, Pankaj? That “grounding/emotionally-ret@rded” speech you keep sniveling is a cop-out. Indian males get to date white girls, but Indian girls can’t date white guys, because we owe you our allegiance, until you tell us otherwise? Get over yourself.
Please give a minute to think of what I have to say. It is disheveled somewhat, but my thesis is that as long as there is discrimination between the sexes, males and females will develop out of synch with each other. The development of indian males can be held in the hands of their sisters as there is the potential for them to be stratified developmentally. This stratification can be prevented if indian girls growing up guard the development of their brothers and do their best to see that they are not emasculated. that they are given every chance to develop into all that they can be, when affects of racism are nullified.
Pankaj has made some very valid points although they are politically incorrect.
If ABD men find it hard imagine the state of a DBD bloke. Twice cursed. It is true that if you are an average desi, you have start the game with a huge disadvantage. This is not to say that one can’t play the game. To use a B-school example – Any product can be successful providing it is marketed correctly. Identify the niche and position the brand and it will be in high demand. I suspect that the unsuccesful desi men would do well if they really understood what they were selling. My success rate jumped after Ries and Trout.
Another skill is patience – the same ‘charakku’ who treated you like dirt when you were 18 will come crawling back when you are 30. Karma works in mysterious ways.
Ok, Razib, yes, once you sharpen matriarchal to this extent, you practically define it out of existence. So name one matriarchal society, immigrant or not!
I only found out two weeks ago that there were Sikh that were not Jatt!
were not most of the original sikh gurus khatris??? (so says the atheist from a muslim family)
ak – pankaj, yours – and sravas’ – (rather confused, to say the least) attitudes towards dating white vs brown women would make this brown woman lean towards not dating you – and take heart in the fact that it has nothing to with race!
I am sorry as I have not expressed myself as well as I would have like but I do feel fervent about what I am writing about having gone through a terrible experience and having been emasculated. Let me explain it to you. Some years ago I met an Indian girl whose mother, like mine was from lahore. It turns out that we were both kumars, and both came from similar families. Finally there was someone to understand me, I was grounded for the first time probably in my life. We connected because she was effectively dating me, socializing with all my friends while going out with my friend who is now gay, but back then I guess I understood it on a sub – conscious level. I was somewhat insecure but this was the person for me, and she came from a wonderful home. However, I was developmentally delayed and would never fit into her sorority life while my friend would. I went from being someone who was insecure to someone who was emasculated. all because this one person who could ground me, did not. I got messed up by the experience and I was no longer the person that I was, the person that I was raised to be. It became difficult to work, relate to people, and I would imagine it would be harder to be a parent also. This unfortunately is something that happens everyday and I am developmentally delayed and fucked up now as a result. I do not want to see it happen again and I feel that it is the appropriate thing to do to raise indian girls to be protective of their brother’s development. that is all that I am saying. this is a good thread, maybe we can get to the bottom of some stuff.
So name one matriarchal society, immigrant or not!
i don’t think there are any. men rule when you have an “archy” of any sort. or, there is a semblance of equality because of the egalitarianism of societies (e.g., hunter-gatherers).
were not most of the original sikh gurus khatris??? (so says the atheist from a muslim family)
Until recently it had never been an issue. I had no idea that other subgroups even existed.
and chachaji, i only point that out because south asian society is classic example where lack of power != sexism. patriarchy has been most highly developed in the elites until recently (think patrilineal gotras). female infanticide and dowry are elite practices which have percolated down to the masses over the past century (many marginal or low caste groups used to practice bride price until the 20th century). the point is that the idea that sexism emerges from disempowerment is intuitively appealing, but empirically there are some problems with it. many human societies seem subject to the trivers-willard hypothesis.
Thanks Melbourne. Lol…that is currently my ambition. This may sound rubbish and silly, but I feel blessed and grateful to meet women from all over the world. I hope it never ends.
Good luck to you as well
some of the comments show why some brown men have to as a matter of necessity go back to the motherland and fine a woman desperate for a greencard 😉
re: #593:
Razib, You seem smart and cool and all–what is the view of this going back to India for a bride these days? I’m sure there are multiple views–what are they?
Razib, the immigrant experience can be disorienting and disempowering, and even if the predominant component of the sexism in Indian immigrant communities is just derived from old country attitudes, there is also a component deriving from host society racism. The pervasive evidence from local minority communities shows the extent to which family structures are demolished by racism, men rendered incarcerated, unemployed and unemployable, females driven to destitution, and having to support their families all by themselves. So I can’t buy that this dynamic somehow completely spares immigrant communities of color, especially in the second and later generations, and does not induce its own sexist reaction.
Reality is nuanced as always, and few blanket statements of any sort survive as sociological truth. But this has been fun, nevertheless. Good night from me, and thanks to all for a great discussion.
Rob, an example in response to #594:
My maternal cousin is DBD and first came to the States 12 years ago. He was married (love marriage) to an ABD woman 7-8 years ago. He is Punjabi Sikh, she is Gujurati Hindu. They divorced 4 years ago. Part of the reason? Conflict between them regarding her duties at home, aka she wanted to work and he wanted dinner waiting when he got home.
Two years ago he went to India and came back with a DBD. No complaints yet.
what is the view of this going back to India for a bride these days? I’m sure there are multiple views–what are they?
you want me to be honest? i assume that those with no social skills or not skillz period go back and and get a bride from the brownland. nothing against ladies from brownland, but they have a greater incentive to kiss a big fat ass and keep their mouth shut when faced with a pig 😉 i’m sure i’ll have people rag on me for this perception, but i just remember a documentary from 10 years back when a nerdy zitty pakistani american u of iowa student raved about how “gorgeous” his arranged bride (who he never met) was, and then he started laughing like a freak straight out of a D & D conference. the analogy i’d make would be those guys who go and get brides from russia and the philippines who are about 1/5 of their weight and 1/3 their age. but perhaps i’m being ungenerous; after all, there are the people for whom a ‘caste is a bar.’ so they need to go back to brownland since there are only 500 individuals of their inbred subcaste of a subcaste of a subcaste, and most of the eligible ladies happen to be in a brownland and they need to go back there to find someone appropriately freakishly similar in physical appearance to clone, i mean breed, with so as to produce cyclopean unibrowed children 😉
.The pervasive evidence from local minority communities shows the extent to which family structures are demolished by racism, men rendered incarcerated, unemployed and unemployable, females driven to destitution, and having to support their families all by themselves.
this is just not true for asian americans. as for black americans, take a good look at the matrifocal economies of west africa. the pattern of residence and lifestyle isn’t that alien.
Razib #597:
No, no–thanks! That’s kinda what I think too–but my moms is always pushing it on me and I do have Desi friends who have done it, tho’ I’ve never been blown away by the result. Thanks for the honesty! PS–check out TNR online for an interesting geneology piece.
i agree with HMF: this ‘just pull yourself up by the bootstraps’ attitude seems more than cavalier—it completely discounts the racialized experience of desi men in the U.S. Emasculation is not just an internal process as one commentator seems to indicate —it is ALSO socially imposed. a good example is the whole penis size crap that gets circulated —whereupon black men have giant size penises, asian men have small size penises, which leads to the notion that ===white men have the best/normal size penis. this dum little story that i am sure most of us have heard in our lifetimes, conveys the simple fact that white men, in this society, are percieved as the social norm/standard of beauty etc. and desi men- who often do not fit the criteria of euro normative beauty standards–experience the rejection of what it means to a. NOT to “fit in” vis a vis—indian men are sexist, ugly, overly horny, etc.
why is this so difficult to accept (see ANNA previous comment: “…desi men, who aren’t as emasculated or desexualized as you think…”— by the way, since when did quantifying the emasculation of one minority group over the other become a useful comparison?)
the reality is that sexual attraction is f’ing complex and is affected by both biology and the social. I cannot comment on the biological as I am no scientist but the social is -undeniably- (and I am sure most on this thread would agree) impacted by very real structural factors that both exoticize and emasculate desi women and men. Pankaj’s comments maybe rambling and somehow misguided but i infer, in his comments, a very real feeling of rejection based on his desi-ness. so telling him to ‘pull himself by the bootstraps’ just won’t do.