Pilgrims is the name commonly applied to early settlers of the Plymouth Colony in present-day Massachusetts. Their leadership came from a religious congregation who had fled a volatile political environment in the East Midlands of England for the relative calm of Holland in the Netherlands. Concerned with losing their cultural identity, the group later arranged with English investors to establish a new colony in North America…Their story has become a central theme in United States cultural identity. [wiki]
This country was born because people desired the freedom to worship their God in their own way. To me, that is so American.
To have the freedom to be yourself, to be entitled to respect, to experience tolerance instead of persecution…these are the central themes with which I define my American identity.
What else is American? E pluribus unum. Out of many, one. One cultural identity, comprised of hundreds of influences, origins and traditions. If you take a step back and ponder it, America seems like a miraculous idea; you start to respect the safeguards put in place to protect people. One of the most significant? The separation between church and state. This is where things get complicated, but that’s not a bad thing. Everyone is complicated, why should we expect our nations not to be? Yes, there are religious words on money and everyone knows that there is a Judeo-Christian foundation to a lot of what is considered American…but there is also respect for other ideas. Or at least, there should be. At the very least, there should be the freedom for others to worship their God, in their own way, no matter what you or I think about it. There should be mutual respect. There should be.
A Hindu clergyman made history Thursday by offering the Senate’s morning prayer, but only after police officers removed three shouting protesters from the visitors’ gallery.
Rajan Zed, director of interfaith relations at a Hindu temple in Reno, Nev., gave the brief prayer that opens each day’s Senate session. As he stood at the chamber’s podium in a bright orange and burgundy robe, two women and a man began shouting ”this is an abomination” and other complaints from the gallery.
Police officers quickly arrested them and charged them disrupting Congress, a misdemeanor. The male protester told an AP reporter, ”we are Christians and patriots” before police handcuffed them and led them away. [NYT]
No, you are Christians and fools. Way to make Team Jesus look awful, as you misrepresent everything that the man stood for and preached.
For several days, the Mississippi-based American Family Association has urged its members to object to the prayer because Zed would be ”seeking the invocation of a non-monotheistic god.” [NYT]
Yes, because the prayer he offered was SO offensive to actual Christians, agnostics or those who have been touched by a noodly appendage:
Zed, the first Hindu to offer the Senate prayer, began: ”We meditate on the transcendental glory of the Deity Supreme, who is inside the heart of the Earth, inside the life of the sky and inside the soul of the heaven. May He stimulate and illuminate our minds.”
As the Senate prepared for another day of debate over the Iraq war, Zed closed with, ”Peace, peace, peace be unto all.” [NYT]
Let me tell you something about what that Uncle said– it was far kinder and more welcoming than a lot of what I heard in Catholic school, especially if the Pope was involved. For shame. Perhaps the most offensive aspect of his spiritual offering was its emphasis on peace?
Zed, who was born in India, was invited by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. Speaking in the chamber shortly after the prayer, Reid defended the choice and linked it to the war debate.
”If people have any misunderstanding about Indians and Hindus,” Reid said, ”all they have to do is think of Gandhi,” a man ”who gave his life for peace.”
”I think it speaks well of our country that someone representing the faith of about a billion people comes here and can speak in communication with our heavenly Father regarding peace,” said Reid, a Mormon and sharp critic of President Bush’s Iraq policies. [NYT]
As several of you pointed out via email, news tab and flaming arrow, THIS is the money quote:
Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the protest ”shows the intolerance of many religious right activists. They say they want more religion in the public square, but it’s clear they mean only their religion.” [NYT]
What these Jesus-freaks are forgetting is that Christ was a man of peace. He didn’t surround himself with the pious and faux-righteous; he called those people out, as he deliberately and controversially chose to befriend the lowest of the low, tax collectors, prostitutes and the like. Was there ever a better example of tolerance in the Christian faith?
As I bitterly read the articles about this troubling, hurtful incident, I am reminded of those who persecuted Jesus, for what they perceived as his “blasphemy”. Two thousand years later, some of his so-called followers have become so drunk off of hate and fundamentalism, they cannot see straight, they cannot grasp that if this were two millenia ago, Jesus would be the man in the orange robe and they, they would be the hypocrites who attacked him and then cheered at his suffering.
why cant people post infanticide related comments to the infanticide post? this one is about a hindu prayer in congress……
Because they are selfish wankers who don’t care about your right to enjoy an asshole-free, on-topic thread. They only care about venting their hate by personally attacking a blogger who happened to write both posts. It makes perfect sense. If you’re mentally ill.
well, you’ve to consider that she comes from a lake, and that her arm is clad in the purest shimmering samite, signifying divine providence.
was there a big outcry when a muslim spoke?
Um, how about they may really have a problem with hearing negative comments on Indian society, and are threatened by it, and thus lashing out and being unkind.
Its a little bit more realistic.
Or else yeah, lets just all say the most hyperbolic things 24/7 because then its just way more fun (or annoying and corrosive)
Why would you be very pregnant?>>>
whoaaaah there nellie… muy bizarro, those native braves. can they not even master their heavens sent spanish.
” I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. “
99: Manju; catholic priests confessions are inviolate
From what I know (which I do confess may be from watching too much Law & Order) a conversation between a person and any religious advisory type person acting as a representative of their religion at the time are inviolate.
Manju, I’m sorry I’d confused Kahlo with her lesbian lover, who was the one who’d come from a lake, and who’d given Kahlo her unibrow; clearly signifying divine providence. Can’t see the establishment clause saving you there.
The people whom you refer to have maturely expressed their disagreement without resorting to repetitive, ad hominem attacks. I think you are exactly right, but not about these trolls…nor would I characterize people who are understandably and justifiably defensive about Indian society AS trolls. Two separate groups. One which pushed back, the other should just be pushed.
Doubtful in these situations. The US Gov is under the gun to prove to the world they’re not anti-muslim, so they’ll lick their asses in public. Secondly, even semi-devout followers of the Abrahamic traditions will only acknowledge the Christianity/Islam/Judiasm triumvarate as true religions, to them Hinduism is a voodoo religion of sex poses and large tongues.
still, anyone who slept with trotsky, is considered in some circles, to be god. so maybe i still have a case. unibrow nonewithstanding
See I don’t agree, I think its the worst instinct to do that, to just slam somebody back; its its own form of violence. There’s a lot of violence out there. Of course I’ve done it too, but I don’t feel like its a good instinct or method if avoidable
Hypertree, I say these things to explicitly counter the comparisons that paint India as an idyllic paradise for non Hindus. If there are people who find saying some words every morning offensive and oppressive in the US (and incorrectly compare it to the Indian situation), and then claim that India is just fine for all religions (ignoring the drastic impacts), I do take issue with that. I do think India manages a lot of these things well, but I also think it is very hard for Hindus whose religious culture matches with Indian culture in so many ways to appreciate how some of even the “harmless aspects”, like ceremonially lighting a big standing lamp before every function, could be offensive to a non-Hindu who is inclined to be touchy. It is like asking your middle-of-the-road moderate white American Christian to comment on how life might be for a Hindu in America, I don’t think the bevy of slings and arrows, some of them unintentional (or due to history or tradition) will even register with him.
Dude, my comments are not about the moral or cultural superiority of one country or the other. Both the US and India have very different problems, and I don’t think it is appropriate to paint either as a paradise. I’ve been picking fights with both sides of this debate on the thread 🙂 Let’s get one thing clear: When I say A is bad, it doesn’t implicitly mean that every other thing in the whole wide universe that is not A is good. And vice versa.
Anyways, kusala #339 said it very well. We will brief you on the results of our study, er, once the end of the grant rolls around.
Again, I agree with you. Lately, a good portion of it in this space has been aimed squarely at one woman. More than a few of us are sick of it. You can disagree with someone without belittling their family members, appearance, name, existence…
Perhaps the next time someone leaves some ad hominem goodness for Anna, you can rightly remind them that you:
and that you
.
Because that’s what I was getting “hyperbolic” about (as if quotation marks hadn’t seen enough action in this battle), just to clarify.
Manju, surely you agree that what you do in the privacy of your home is your own business. Even if it is with a lady with a ‘stash.
delirium tremens #336, thanks for the pointer. Is the movie worth watching?
Great. I will trade you for my copy of God Is Not Great: Why Religion Poisons Everything.
Those are good points, I think I agree actually. 🙂
In general though, what about the idea that there’s too much violence in our society and we’ve become inured to it.
Hmmm looks like all views have pretty much been expressed. HMF, though I normally ‘feel you’ on most of your comments, it’s time you knew the truth about Jesusland
Uhh. ok, great. what does volunteering have to do with people equating Christianity = American.
You know, this really captures the feel of this thread, and the Mutiny, of late.
ITA with it. I think being surrounded by violence, in so many forms, desensitizes us, and represses our more compassionate impulses. It also dissolves notions of respect which has ramifications great and small; whether we’re discussing respect for a man who represents a different faith, by letting him pray without disruption in front of the U.S. Senate or respect for a woman who offers her views publically, by letting her express herself without constant bullying, harassment and heckling (which, ironically, is not dissimilar to what those assholes in the gallery were ejected for)…I think there is a lamentable lack of respect everywhere and many of the problems we’re concerned about, whether they revolve around Apu, Zed or Obama boil down to just that– respect (or a lack of it).
Yeah I think its a problem. I wonder if we’ll have a reaction similiar to the flower power type thing where the total opposite becomes normalized, and we’ll .o.d on peace and love type of themes coming up.
Probably about as much as equating an entire region of the country with backwardness. Given my own [Afro-American] experiences growing up there, that in spite of historical/ racial/(religious) animus that people do actually reach beyond their comfort zones out to each other. As I am a Christian, I don’t really have a problem with the more subtle assumptions that “American does equal Christian”, it has root in historical fact, after all. I temper that with the ‘other’ assumptions many Americans (of all colors) continue to make based on race. Point being I generally can identify with the ‘other’
And just so you know, my comment to you was meant to be light hearted- I didn’t didn’t want to go for the corny “LOL” route- ill leave the comedy to Rahul. Peace.
So what’s the conclusion?.
I have to agree with dubliner that this issue of heckling is just a minor irritation when compared with the problems lot of others face in different countries for having a different faith than the majority of the folks who live in such countries. 🙂
i hold america to a higher standard than these other places….
…and am hence dissapointed
Watch yourself, Native Americans were not Christian, and Christianity doesn’t have its roots on this soil. But I think your point is the majority of the early European immigrants were Christian. However, it’s the underlying subtext that is most disturbing: anything non-Christian has no place in America.
Sorry, it is your problem to have swallowed the propaganda..
In one day, I’ve been called daft, court jester, and my job has been wanted (no offense). Hmmm…
if a country claims to be held to a higher standard, i will hold them to that standard. im not sorry. i love my country, and believe that we are capable of more…
But… But… But! Puliogre! Context! History! Nuance!
People will be too high to care… maan!
From Apu to Zed. The new standard of comprehensiveness for South Asian issues.
Or to busy enjoying free love.
Don’t just spout off on this website, contact your senator! Tell him that you fully support Hindu prayers in the capitol building.
The general number for the senate is 202-224-3121, and you can ask to speak to the office of one of the senators from your state. The senators are right now getting an overwhelming number of anti-Hindu calls in support of those “Christian protester” kooks.
Damnit, *too.
HMF #378:
You conflate nation with territory. America the nation did not exist before the “early European immigrants” showed up. The “native Americans” who were living in the same geographical territory before formed different nations, even if they were living in the same territory. They became part of America only once they joined (or were forced into) America. The difference, you could say, is similar to the difference between hardware and software. Territory and blood are hardware, nations are more products of shared imagination (even though these are not completely independent variables).
Insofar, no factual error in noting that the America has historically been a Christian country.
Now THAT should be on the news tab. Link? I’d google it myself but I’m too busy calling Barb and Di, and reminding them that Hindus are the new Jews. 😉
I think I still wish SpoorLam were here.
Please don’t miss the ‘o’. It’s the best part of the free love.
This is only true if you define America the nation as the foundation laid by the “early European immigrants” which you seem to be doing, which is fine. Either way, I acknowledged dilettante’s intention, but the subtext that anything non-Christian must be removed from America is disturbing. Furthermore, the beliefs of the assailants in this case are not merely, “America is historically a Christian country” rather that “America and Christianity are one and the same, an attack on Christianity is an attack on America” – again, a despicable belief.
Jesus would be the man in the orange robe and they, they would be the hypocrites who attacked him and then cheered at his suffering.
Excellent Thought…This Simply Deserves a WOW!!
Please don’t miss the ‘o’. It’s the best part of the free love.
It seems there’s only one ‘o’ in free love. Selfish!
Pondatti, you might need to talk to your pervy uber-Tambram Purushan.
I acknowledged dilettante’s intention, but the subtext that anything non-Christian must be removed from America is disturbing
HMF: Whew! Dang, relax! That’s quite a subtext to infer from dilettante’s original comment, which was really pretty inclusive and recognized many subtleties of pluralism and coexistence:
Given my own [Afro-American] experiences growing up there, that in spite of historical/ racial/(religious) animus that people do actually reach beyond their comfort zones out to each other. As I am a Christian, I don’t really have a problem with the more subtle assumptions that “American does equal Christian”, it has root in historical fact, after all
That read wrong, the subtext belonged to the men in the senate hall, not dilettante. Secondly, the only thing I question dilettant’s use of a volunteering statistic as some kind of contradicting evidence to their propensity to un-subtly imply anything non-Christian has no place, or a forever subjugated place in America. But he/she said the comment was light-hearted.
Some might eloquently argue (#158)that’s the beauty/strength of it; its liberal, it’s bigger than America- you aren’t born into it because of your fathers/mothers DNA/race/caste etc. I won’t get all Sunday school on you. I take your point- which is why I bolded the word subtle. At times, everything about being a visible minority in America, can be all about the underlying subtext- so its imperative that people understand the context, nuance etc, as well as, keeping a big picture perspective.
Rahul- its all good, if I was up to dealing with Nurf girl in a ‘christian’ like way, what w/ HMF’s grumpiness, I’d be crushing you too 😉
HMF! Secondly, the only thing I question dilettant’s use of a volunteering statistic as some kind of contradicting evidence
My orginal comment was about your derison of “Jesusland” as some all encompassing indicitement about people from the midwest. Prehaps I’ve missed your statistics about the open mindeness towards hindus, muslims etc that happen on the coast vs the midwest? The first US Muslim congressman comes from
Jesuslandthe midwest and not the east or west coast, by the by that guy is black as well.I type to slow- I’m not firting with you now!
And his actions did not go by unchallenged either, secondly who a region elects as its leaders is not necessarily indicative of how they feel about that type of person on a day-to-day, interactive basis. India elects a woman prime-minister, and well, we know from this board alone that India’s attitude towards women is speckled at best, right?