302 thoughts on ““But now, all my dreams are broken.””
Do not attack my rape-utation. I rape-at. There will be rape-urcussions.
You two are rape-ulsive.
Ah, ak, I knew it! You are that girl in every port.
i’ve been looking to change my friendster profile – this is my new ‘about me’ description! i guess i’ll have to change my ‘just looking around’ purpose, though – who would believe it with this new description?
hema, these days i find myself with too much time on my hands. what’s a girl to do?
salil and rahul, i love this little show of yours, but if you plan to take it on the road, i suggest you find a new word to be the focus of your play.
ak, duly caste-ized.
but if you plan to take it on the road, i suggest you find a new word to be the focus of your play
You two could be the Caste-rati!
More like Caste Away, I bet.
I apologize for any dalit-irious effects I’ve had on this thread.
Will you perform with caste-anets?
No, no, Rahul. Where would this thread be without your pun-ditry?
What do you think, Rahul? Just you and I, performing for an audience of tens, if not fifteens? In front of the bright lights in the big city?
You and me, kid.
We could call ourselves “Just A Caste of Two.”
And after that, we can go hit the Caste No Bar and get wasted!
Where would this thread be without your pun-ditry?
As long as you don’t call me pun-gent.
We could call ourselves “Just A Caste of Two.”
Salil, I’ve always dreamed of a big tent. A big banner saying “the varna-culars”? We will kill the mallus in the patti-serie, and the punjus in the balle-t hall, dude. Let’s take it on the road!
So, the discussion has veered into “caste conflicts in tamil movies”. Tambram looks like a troll riling up everyone.. I don’t think everyone (or even a substantial number) in rural TN are into raping low caste women and then gloat over it.
“caste” is not explicitly mentioned unless it has to do with glorifying. and mostly done by the “directors/story writers” of the same caste. Tamil movie industry is dominated by “Thevars” and many folks from southern TN and hence you’d see a lot of themes around the glory of “Thevars” who take pride in being a “martial caste”.
Dalits are not as weak as suggested by the folks here. (atleast for their influence in the movie world). With Dalit hero Thirumavalavan into the fray, you can expect more changes to come.
Rahul,
One good turn deserves another. I present Quick Gun Murugan. In early ’90s Channel V ran bunch of hilarious spots lampooning South Indian (or is it just Telugu?) films.
shodan – thanks! btw, quick gun murugan is tamil. love the western theme – swinging doors and all. the ellai (banana leaf) at the bar counter – priceless. perhaps the next time i eat masala dosa, i should substitute my madras coffee for a johnny walker (blue, of course).
ak
There are more. Someone needs to dig them up.
Anyone remembers Alas, my lowe is wasted on a kettle of cold fish? Classic.
Rahul, Salil, et al…hilarious.
Ah, shodan, good times! QGM was revolutionary when it showed up on V the first time, I don’t think there had been that kind of comedy before in India. I also loved the mise-en-scenes they (or was it MTV India) had in their countdown with the washed-out sepia tone, and the number of the song embedded somewhere in the frame.
perhaps the next time i eat masala dosa, i should substitute my madras coffee for a johnny walker
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil.
maybe momentarily depending on the situation, but then followed by disgust, anger. it that so bad? many of our responses are conditioned by mileu in which we grew up, though we later learn to reevaluate them. some people like Tambram, tend to be defensive abt it, but still recognize its not such a great thing, after all.
I’m sure rural village culture includes a lot that abhors rape and hate.
It certainly does. the point is such sentiments also coexist with crude, offensive humor. and it includes all kinds – upper caste on dalit woman is just one of them.
note: in this particular video though, i am not in the ‘nakkal’ camp. i was just talking abt such humor in movies etc.
i would say, woman rapes man = exciting, sexy, sometimes funny man rapes man = funny, dirty
i’m sorry, what i should have asked is – what is tambram himself is sexually violated by a man?
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil.
maybe momentarily depending on the situation, but then followed by disgust, anger.
As Mel Brooks observed about the subjective nature of humor: Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.
And having dissed Tamil films all day yesterday, here is a genius clip from one of the legions of Vijay admirers.
So we can do this?
ok, but only if i get a wardrobe change. you, on the other hand, should style yourself after the dishy rishi kapoor. every man, really should have a little bit of rk’s style – who wouldn’t want a man that dressed like this?
i guess i’ll have to take my business to jackson diner – 2-for-1 cosmopolitans!
ok, but only if i get a wardrobe change.
Oh no. Thigh length Technicolor Tights (TM) will do any woman proud.
who wouldn’t want a man that dressed like this?
I had a massive PG moment (am I allowed to say that?) when I saw the lingam occupying pride of place around the human-sized lazy susan/LP.
And between the disco-ball costume and this, there will be no problem spotting my dark dravidian self with the lights out.
Didn’t Quick Gun Murugan also popularize “we are like this only”, or at least expand usage of said phrase?
I had a massive PG moment (am I allowed to say that?) when I saw the lingam occupying pride of place around the human-sized lazy susan/LP.
yes, a multi-coloured sequinned lingam, no less.
hema – did he? apparently, i missed out on cable in the states and india while growing up.
Quick Gun Murugan is hilarious. Apparently, there is a movie being made. I think Mallu babe LolaKutty is far better.
Linked both to the clip in #272 (which is truly inspired intentional comedy) and QGM is this music video. The search side bar in Youtube indicates an entire sub-genre of Tamil-Titanic marriages. James Cameron saar will be impressed. (BTW, ak, spoiler: the ship sinks).
@262 – Tambram looks like a troll riling up everyone
How much of that trollishness you attribute directly to what I wrote, and how much to the very liberal misinterpretations that followed.
Sample:
236 me – I’m NOT endorsing rape-jokes
238 ak – since you think rape jokes in general are OK
!!! Dropped on head as child perhaps ? I very explicitly say X, still you say I said ~X.
I found a dozen such samples after which I just stopped counting.
PS @ 239, 240:
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil.
maybe momentarily depending on the situation,
What would be a situation in which you find it funny?
but then followed by disgust, anger. – I’m glad you feel this way; I would feel this way from the beginning and I’d also feel fearful, especially if I was in a “situation” in which whites were causing violence to Indians – thank god that’s not the case. But that is the “situation” that Dalit Tamils and other women, I’m sure, find themselves in TN.
many of our responses are conditioned by mileu in which we grew up, though we later learn to reevaluate them.
Yes we are and we have choices to make within the different opinions within that milieu. As you yourself said, I’m sure rural village culture includes a lot that abhors rape and hate.
It certainly does., therefore I’m sure Tambram has a choice and conscious even within his “milieu” (forget the fact that he’s been in the US) to decide what’s funny.
Frankly, I find it disturbing that Tambram would laugh about it;
“the point is such sentiments also coexist with crude, offensive humor. and it includes all kinds – upper caste on dalit woman is just one of them.”
I don’t think that is the point; But again you have brought up the fact that humor as Tambram knows it exists with other less offensive humor. So my point is that I feel Tambram can’t hide behind “that’s how it is in the country”, when there are many other viewpoints from rural TN.
Tambram and all of us have choices to make and are sensitive to different things. Tambram has every agency to reevaluate his sensitivity to other’s pain made into a joke.
in this particular video though, i am not in the ‘nakkal’ camp. i was just talking abt such humor in movies etc.
That’s nice of you.
I don’t mean to be snarky…I just can’t find anything to defend Tambram’s “defensiveness”; what’s there to be defensive about? Within rural TN culture, there must be other perceptions that say, “hey this humor just isn’t right” — and I cannot find anything funny about such humor.
How much of that trollishness you attribute directly to what I wrote, and how much to the very liberal misinterpretations that followed.
Right, you generalised “rural Tamil culture” as something that condones the heinous crime based on some “junk” movie scenes (even in those movies, there is no explicit mention of “caste” of the culprits or victims other than your “assumptions”)
To prove that you are not a troll, take this simple test, why don’t you tell us the “caste” of the roles in the movies.
You really think you give me H1B Visa I will morph into a very refined person and mouth gems like “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Nadu”. I won’t. I am from rural TN, I watch Tamil cinema, almost exclusively, and that’s that. No apologies, no explanations.
No, generally what is expected from foreign nationals who secure a work/study visa that enables them to live in the US for any amount of time is that they obey applicable laws and gain some appreciation for life in a society that makes many justifiable claims to creating a liberal atmosphere.
a liberal atmosphere entails respect for others, their property and, in many cases, their cultural baggage and owned experience (like being raped or being thrown out of/discriminated against in your home country as a result of essential characteristics).
you readily admit that you voraciously consume Tamil-language media that often glorifies caste-based violence (sexual and otherwise) and justify this interest by the old “it is what it is and that’s what it always was” argument. You will also probably concede that caste-based violence, of the kind depicted in your beloved tamil media, is very much a reality.
Now if I readily admitted that I voraciously consume and enjoy media showing beheadings, abduction, suicide bombings and random, senseless violence (of the kind readily observable in my family’s native country of Sri-Lanka)the SM community would be right to bash my apparent support/admiration for phenomena that produce demonstrable societal evils.
since you didn’t bother to quote the lines following, let me do it for you :
I’m not endorsing rape-jokes or crudity in TN cinema. I’m saying this is what things are like back home ( well, my home, not yours ). I watch it because I am from there. Because I grew up on this sort of crude entertainment, I also will laugh at the jokes. Its a very primal response.
i did not say you are endorsing rape jokes – i said you are OK with them – big difference, my friend. and you laughing does indicate that you are OK with them. as you say, why ever be embarassed by one’s culture?
also, your arguments suffer more than a bit because of your avoidance of specific situations/questions that i, and others, put forth to you.
How much of that trollishness you attribute directly to what I wrote, and how much to the very liberal misinterpretations that followed.
Where’s the misinterpretation? Most of us expressed our misgivings/condemnation regarding the landlord’s attitude to the rape of Dalit women by upper caste men. You interpreted his attitude as mere nakkal, and condoned it as being part of the normal cultural/social milieu of rural Tamil Nadu.
It’s that latter point that I have trouble with, because I don’t see the particular value or usefulness of nakkal in this situation, even in rural TN. I think you’re wrong to transpose such an attitude onto rural TN culture, because I don’t think it exists in the manner in which you’re suggesting.
indianoguy – lola kutty reminds me of mr. nair, my history TA – ‘vaay vas the soviet union so successful in the vestern front? beecose, they had knoLedge (south indian ‘l’) that japan vud not invade in the yeast.’ good TA, he was.
282 -“you readily admit that you voraciously consume Tamil-language media “
Yes, absolutely.
“that often glorifies caste-based violence (sexual and otherwise)”
Sometimes it glorifies. Sometimes it doesn’t. Usually, they do both ie. often in first half they will glorify, and then cancel it out ( meaning person who glorifies it will meet a bad end ) after the interval. I can give very concrete examples of movies where it is glorified, and where it is denigrated. Both exist. As Kamalhasan once said, Tamil cinema is an ocean. You can make any statement about it that will simultaneously be both true and false! The volume of Tamil movies is huge, and over period of 50+ years, caste-based violence has been subjected to just about every conceivable angle in the movies.
“and justify this interest”
No, I don’t have to justify my interest. I’m Tamilian by birth. Grew up watching those movies almost exclusively. Therefore, continue to watch them. I’m interested in watching Tamil movies because I’m Tamilian, I speak the language, intuitively get the culture etc.
“it is what it is and that’s what it always was”
That is a statement about the industry. I’m not some censor board guy who gets to shape what Tamil cinema is. I just watch what they put out because I’m a consumer. btw, this statement is typically made when a producer is grilled on TV/newspaper, Saar, why Tamil cinema must have koothu paatu ( skimpy item numbers ) ? Why we show regressive attitude about violence towards women, such as rapist condescending to marry the victim instead of punishment for rapist ? Why this ? Why that ? etc. At this point, producer throws up his hand and says “Tamil cinema, it is what it is”. eg. That’s what Vasantha Balan Sir also said when they grilled him about Veyil @Cannes.
“You will also probably concede that caste-based violence, of the kind depicted in your beloved tamil media, is very much a reality.”
Why probably ? I absolutely agree. I will give it to you in writing. Caste based violence, discrimination, rape, all of these are very much real in TN. Tamil cinema also does a very graphic and accurate job of depicting these realities.
murali, I honestly didn’t understand the rest of your post regarding SM community’s right to bash somebody for watching something. To be precise, are you saying that because Dish Network, a USA corporation, broadcasts some 120 Tamil movies every month, majority of which contain some caste-based nonsense that SM-community might not find kosher, somehow this channel is flouting US laws and must be banned ? If so, I will watch these movies until they ban it. After they ban it, I can watch it from my Tivo. Also you get tamil VCDs DVDs from Canada, UK etc. No supply side constraint.
murali, are you saying I should stop watching Tamil movies because of what SM community might feel? Pls clarify.
Tambram # 218
“When I watched that landlord I just laughed out aloud and said yenna nakkal paaru.”
What is disconcerting is not your love for Tamil cinema but that you find rape to be a laughing matter.
Dude Yogi, for the nth time, I found the nakkal to be a laughing matter. Not the rape. How he said it, not what was said. Comic timing and the thimiru in his voice. Like I said before, its a primal response thats all. See I will give you some concrete examples of my milieu so you know where I’m coming from.
There is one Amitabachan Yashchopra movie called Trishul. In the Tamil remake, it stars Superstar Rajnikanth and Sathyaraj. Now this is the story. Sathyaraj is mel-saadhi ( UC ) engineer. This Shanthi is a keelsadhi ( dalit ) construction worker. Sathyaraj goes to Paalapatti to build bridge. There he rapes this Shanthi. Shanthi says, you have raped me, so you please marry me. Sathyaraj says, Like this I have done many many rapes. I can’t marry each and every one. Instead I will pay you. Check-a venama, cash-a venama, draft-a venama ? ( ie. you want cheque, cash or draft ? )
It became a very famous catchphrase in those days. I watched it in Virudhunagar kottai, and the audience went wild when he said it. It is very funny and piercing in Tamil, plus Sathyaraj has incredible comic timing. So audience laughed. Never mind that it is actually a rape-joke. Sathyaraj has raped this Shanthi and he is now making a joke at her expense. But audience is not thinking all that deeply – here is our hero Sathyaraj, he is saying this check-a venamas, cash-a venama, in a very funny way, so we all laughed.
Then this Shanthi says, you bastard, I will make you eat your words.
Later on Shanthi gives birth to Rajnikanth. Then much later Sathyaraj comes to believe that his daughter has been raped by Rajnikanth’s son. So Sathyaraj rushes to Rajnikanth and says, when shall we fix their marriage ? Rajnikanth says, what marriage ? Just because my son slept with your daughter doesn’t mean marriage. Instead I will pay you. So, again, Check-a venama, cash-a venama, draft-a venama ?
At this point, heightened music, flashback etc. Same dialog that Sathyaraj used now coming back at him, that too by our Thalaivar Rajnikanth. Audience went absolutely crazy. Never mind it is basically the same recycled rape-joke. First you are making a joke if A rapes B. Then you are making same joke if B son’s rapes A’s daughtter !!!
This is all crude third-world humor. In time, that phrase about cheque, cash, draft acquired such potency. I have seen that phrase used so many times after that with that same dirty meaning.
btw, this Tamil remake of Trishul is called Mr. Bharath. They are showing it again on Dish this saturday. If you tune in and watch that portion, you might find it very funny too. ( Then again, you might not. Thats fine too. )
Ok I will give one more example. This time I don’t remember which movie exactly. See this heroine bending forward. So her saree falls off revealing her plunging neckline. So this hero looks at her boobs and says “Good Morning”! This line became very famous, sort of minor phenomenon in TN in those days. As college students, we said Good Morning whenever we spotted a girl. That girl would immidiately check to make sure her cleavage wasn’t showing 🙂 Look, I know its sick & silly & juvenile and all that, but its better to be honest about these things instead of pretending that Tamil Nadu is just Mani Ratnam and clean movies. Its a fairly crude, at times very vulgar culture. But that’s ok in some sense, because ultimately, TN is also a very hypocritical society ie. Just because people are making these rape-jokes or saying Good Morning doesn’t mean they have the balls to actually rape or grope the boobs. TN remains a sexually repressed place inspite of Good Mornings.
have the balls to actually rape or grope the boobs
While I did enjoy your explanation this last line threw me off.
False macho?
TN remains a sexually repressed place inspite of Good Mornings.
so, hinting at exposed cleavage in a nonironic, but entirely moronic, fashion is a sign of a society that is not ‘sexually repressed’?
Just because people are making these rape-jokes or saying Good Morning doesn’t mean they have the balls to actually rape or grope the boobs. TN remains a sexually repressed place inspite of Good Mornings.
Tambram,
Every time you try to justify your position you end up making more objectionable remarks.Do you mean to imply that rape requires some sort of bravery ? That lack of rape is sexual repression?
I think healthy debate is good but this is veering into very unsavory areas
What false macho means ? I’m not understanding you. Anyway what I am saying is that these rape-jokes crudity etc. are pervasive in both movies as well as casual conversation among college students, village folk etc., but people don’t actually act out what they are saying. I mean percentage is very small compared to New Delhi. For eg. If you are a girl, you will get groped in a bus 100 times likely more in Delhi than Madras. But your average Tamil movie will have 100 times more crudity than your poprcorn Hindi movie ! This is all curious tidbits about groundreality in TN. Recently Outlook did one survey where they actually proved this. If you hang out on forumhub where people are super-defensive about all things Tamil, these explanations will pop up again and again. Basically TN is one huge hypocritic mess, but at same time a very safe mess 🙂
In Shankar’s superhit movie Gentleman, this girl wears skirt & tshirt and plays with the boys. So the boys try to rape the girl. Then hero Arjun beats up the boys. Then girl says, why they tried to rape me, I was just playing. So Arjun gives pearls of wisdom – see you are dressing in skirt, so boys are also getting lust! If you dress in saree like your sister, you will be safe !!!
Not only did censor board not find this dialog super-sexist, they passed it with no cuts at all, and audience loved it too! Crazy.
Actually, not so crazy. I was discussing this movie with my colleagues and we discovered this scene is carbon copy of a famous MGR movie !!! This KR Vijaya wears skirt & tshirt and stands in field. So farmer tries to rape her. Then MGR separates the two. Then farmer says, she is so hot so I cannot contain myself!!! At this point, MGR turns to audience and addresses them directly – in TN you must wear saree and dress conservatively!!! Then next scene, KR Vijaya actually dressed in saree comes to samre field, and MGR, KRV & farmers do one jig and sing song about this dress sense!!! I even remember that song ippidi daan irukka vendum pombalai ( woman must be like this only!!!) This is all height of insanity, but would you believe MGR actually got elected as Chief Minister based on such shit. Vaazhga Tamizhagam !
BTW, ak, spoiler: the ship sinks.
damn you! i said insignificant films. titanic is a modern masterpiece!
the clip was interesting. but why does billy zane’s character sound like he’s from saidapet? and perpetually drunk? they should seriously make this into a half hour show – quite entertaining.
I was disturbed by your “have the balls” comment. False macho refers to men beating women, children, etc. Norma Cantu in an romanticized essay on Latino masculinity comes up with:
macho: strong enough to feed and protect himself and own family in any cirucmstance. In folk tales, the good macho = man of honor.
false macho: puts down women or brualizes them because he is not respcted by the machos (in an attempt to get respect from the brutalized).
mandilon: henpecked/whipped
By saying not having the balls to “actually rape or grope” where does that put your perspective? Is rape glorified?
Tambram:
I will give it to you in writing. Caste based violence, discrimination, rape, all of these are very much real in TN. Tamil cinema also does a very graphic and accurate job of depicting these realities.
So what the hell have you been arguing about? That rapist landlord obviously thought his raping was a gleeful not a shameful matter since thats how they depict it in your beloved tamil movies. Yet you have been tirelessly insisting that he was merely boasting of rapes not that he and his caste men had actually committed them. Now you admit “in writing” that such casteist rapes are indeed rampant. Isnt that the point of that video? So why are you objecting to it?
Those who find “humor” in things like rape must have something seriously twisted in their characters. We see this sickness right here in this thread. That other Tamil Brahmin, Rahul the callous comedian, makes “clever” jokes about rape, untouchability, child slave labor etc and has attracted a number of admirers even. You will also notice that a highly disproportionate number of the most tenacious defenders of casteism and elitism here, who also have the obscene habit of putting down african and hispanic americans, tend to be tamil brahmins.
Through my tears I reflected back to my trip to India, I had the same sick feeling in my stomach as we drove by the “trash villages” tears streamed down my face at that time too. But God made it clear to me that he made us (everyone) his hands and feet on this earth! We are too all pray for the people bound by their caste, and ask him, “what can I do” to make a difference to these amazing individuals. It is not enough to just “wish” it away, or tell yourself, “I can do nothing”. We can all make a difference, pray about how God can use you.
The girl at the end was clearly intelligent and articulate, perhaps endowed with g. The singular stupidity of the caste system keeps the intelligent poor from rising and contributing more to society, it’s a net loss all round.
Exactly. She aspired to be a nurse or a doctor, and would have likely made a very good one too. The upper caste teachers and students humiliated and harassed her into quitting school. There are millions of such stories. Its a net loss for India, this squandering of precious human resources due to insane caste prejudices and selfishness.
Yet you have been tirelessly insisting that he was merely boasting of rapes not that he and his caste men had actually committed them. Now you admit “in writing” that such casteist rapes are indeed rampant. Isnt that the point of that video? So why are you objecting to it?
I don’t think he’s objecting to it. Tambram is using the classical technique of “vancha pugazchi”. It is the technique of “Sangam poets” to disguise “venom” as praise. They sing such songs on the kings who they don’t like and there is a legend that some famous poet killed a king just by his song.
He is just ridiculing the “Tamil society / culture” by disguising as a “defender”. As I said before, “caste” of the different roles of the actors are not explicitly mentioned and if they are explicitly mentioned it is mostly for praising it. No one knows what criteria Tambram uses to figure out who belongs to “high caste” and who belongs to “low caste”. I’ve watched the same movies and cannot figure out the “caste” of such roles.
That other Tamil Brahmin, Rahul
Prema, I’m The Tamil Brahmin. That other Tamil Brahmin is that other Tamil Brahmin.
Rahul the callous comedian
Can I use this name when Salil and I take our act on the road? I am also flattered that you’ve been an ardent follower of my work so far.
a highly disproportionate number of the most tenacious defenders of casteism and elitism here, who also have the obscene habit of putting down african and hispanic americans, tend to be tamil brahmins.
It is all thanks to the benefits of reservation in Bigotry University. Tambrams, overreprezent!
Do not attack my rape-utation. I rape-at. There will be rape-urcussions.
You two are rape-ulsive.
i’ve been looking to change my friendster profile – this is my new ‘about me’ description! i guess i’ll have to change my ‘just looking around’ purpose, though – who would believe it with this new description?
hema, these days i find myself with too much time on my hands. what’s a girl to do?
salil and rahul, i love this little show of yours, but if you plan to take it on the road, i suggest you find a new word to be the focus of your play.
ak, duly caste-ized.
You two could be the Caste-rati!
More like Caste Away, I bet.
I apologize for any dalit-irious effects I’ve had on this thread.
Will you perform with caste-anets?
No, no, Rahul. Where would this thread be without your pun-ditry?
What do you think, Rahul? Just you and I, performing for an audience of tens, if not fifteens? In front of the bright lights in the big city?
You and me, kid.
We could call ourselves “Just A Caste of Two.”
And after that, we can go hit the Caste No Bar and get wasted!
As long as you don’t call me pun-gent.
Salil, I’ve always dreamed of a big tent. A big banner saying “the varna-culars”? We will kill the mallus in the patti-serie, and the punjus in the balle-t hall, dude. Let’s take it on the road!
So, the discussion has veered into “caste conflicts in tamil movies”. Tambram looks like a troll riling up everyone.. I don’t think everyone (or even a substantial number) in rural TN are into raping low caste women and then gloat over it.
“caste” is not explicitly mentioned unless it has to do with glorifying. and mostly done by the “directors/story writers” of the same caste. Tamil movie industry is dominated by “Thevars” and many folks from southern TN and hence you’d see a lot of themes around the glory of “Thevars” who take pride in being a “martial caste”.
Dalits are not as weak as suggested by the folks here. (atleast for their influence in the movie world). With Dalit hero Thirumavalavan into the fray, you can expect more changes to come.
Kamal’s earlier movie ran into trouble because of the name and Dalit outfits successfully forced him to change the title. ..Chennai June 20. The controversy over Kamal Hassan’s latest movie ended in an anti-climax today with the actor buying peace with protesting Dalit outfits, by dropping the controversial title Sandiyar. With a new title but the same script, the shooting, which was stalled a fortnight ago in scenic Theni, as the police refused security for the crew, would resume on Tamil Nadu soil soon.
Rahul, One good turn deserves another. I present Quick Gun Murugan. In early ’90s Channel V ran bunch of hilarious spots lampooning South Indian (or is it just Telugu?) films.
shodan – thanks! btw, quick gun murugan is tamil. love the western theme – swinging doors and all. the ellai (banana leaf) at the bar counter – priceless. perhaps the next time i eat masala dosa, i should substitute my madras coffee for a johnny walker (blue, of course).
ak There are more. Someone needs to dig them up. Anyone remembers Alas, my lowe is wasted on a kettle of cold fish? Classic.
Rahul, Salil, et al…hilarious.
Ah, shodan, good times! QGM was revolutionary when it showed up on V the first time, I don’t think there had been that kind of comedy before in India. I also loved the mise-en-scenes they (or was it MTV India) had in their countdown with the washed-out sepia tone, and the number of the song embedded somewhere in the frame.
Sorry may-dam. Strictly vegetarian mess. Teetotallers vunly.
And, pondatti, if you keep making comments like #252 and #255, you will end up provoking me into a bare-nakkal fight.
So we can do this?
PS @ 239, 240:
maybe momentarily depending on the situation, but then followed by disgust, anger. it that so bad? many of our responses are conditioned by mileu in which we grew up, though we later learn to reevaluate them. some people like Tambram, tend to be defensive abt it, but still recognize its not such a great thing, after all.
It certainly does. the point is such sentiments also coexist with crude, offensive humor. and it includes all kinds – upper caste on dalit woman is just one of them. note: in this particular video though, i am not in the ‘nakkal’ camp. i was just talking abt such humor in movies etc.
As Mel Brooks observed about the subjective nature of humor: Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die.
And having dissed Tamil films all day yesterday, here is a genius clip from one of the legions of Vijay admirers.
ok, but only if i get a wardrobe change. you, on the other hand, should style yourself after the dishy rishi kapoor. every man, really should have a little bit of rk’s style – who wouldn’t want a man that dressed like this?
i guess i’ll have to take my business to jackson diner – 2-for-1 cosmopolitans!
Oh no. Thigh length Technicolor Tights (TM) will do any woman proud.
I had a massive PG moment (am I allowed to say that?) when I saw the lingam occupying pride of place around the human-sized lazy susan/LP.
And between the disco-ball costume and this, there will be no problem spotting my dark dravidian self with the lights out.
Didn’t Quick Gun Murugan also popularize “we are like this only”, or at least expand usage of said phrase?
yes, a multi-coloured sequinned lingam, no less.
hema – did he? apparently, i missed out on cable in the states and india while growing up.
Quick Gun Murugan is hilarious. Apparently, there is a movie being made. I think Mallu babe Lola Kutty is far better.
Linked both to the clip in #272 (which is truly inspired intentional comedy) and QGM is this music video. The search side bar in Youtube indicates an entire sub-genre of Tamil-Titanic marriages. James Cameron saar will be impressed. (BTW, ak, spoiler: the ship sinks).
@262 – Tambram looks like a troll riling up everyone
How much of that trollishness you attribute directly to what I wrote, and how much to the very liberal misinterpretations that followed.
Sample:
236 me – I’m NOT endorsing rape-jokes
238 ak – since you think rape jokes in general are OK
!!! Dropped on head as child perhaps ? I very explicitly say X, still you say I said ~X.
I found a dozen such samples after which I just stopped counting.
PS @ 239, 240:
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil. maybe momentarily depending on the situation,
What would be a situation in which you find it funny?
but then followed by disgust, anger. – I’m glad you feel this way; I would feel this way from the beginning and I’d also feel fearful, especially if I was in a “situation” in which whites were causing violence to Indians – thank god that’s not the case. But that is the “situation” that Dalit Tamils and other women, I’m sure, find themselves in TN.
many of our responses are conditioned by mileu in which we grew up, though we later learn to reevaluate them.
Yes we are and we have choices to make within the different opinions within that milieu. As you yourself said, I’m sure rural village culture includes a lot that abhors rape and hate. It certainly does., therefore I’m sure Tambram has a choice and conscious even within his “milieu” (forget the fact that he’s been in the US) to decide what’s funny.
Frankly, I find it disturbing that Tambram would laugh about it;
“the point is such sentiments also coexist with crude, offensive humor. and it includes all kinds – upper caste on dalit woman is just one of them.”
I don’t think that is the point; But again you have brought up the fact that humor as Tambram knows it exists with other less offensive humor. So my point is that I feel Tambram can’t hide behind “that’s how it is in the country”, when there are many other viewpoints from rural TN.
Tambram and all of us have choices to make and are sensitive to different things. Tambram has every agency to reevaluate his sensitivity to other’s pain made into a joke.
in this particular video though, i am not in the ‘nakkal’ camp. i was just talking abt such humor in movies etc.
That’s nice of you.
I don’t mean to be snarky…I just can’t find anything to defend Tambram’s “defensiveness”; what’s there to be defensive about? Within rural TN culture, there must be other perceptions that say, “hey this humor just isn’t right” — and I cannot find anything funny about such humor.
Right, you generalised “rural Tamil culture” as something that condones the heinous crime based on some “junk” movie scenes (even in those movies, there is no explicit mention of “caste” of the culprits or victims other than your “assumptions”)
To prove that you are not a troll, take this simple test, why don’t you tell us the “caste” of the roles in the movies.
No, generally what is expected from foreign nationals who secure a work/study visa that enables them to live in the US for any amount of time is that they obey applicable laws and gain some appreciation for life in a society that makes many justifiable claims to creating a liberal atmosphere.
a liberal atmosphere entails respect for others, their property and, in many cases, their cultural baggage and owned experience (like being raped or being thrown out of/discriminated against in your home country as a result of essential characteristics).
you readily admit that you voraciously consume Tamil-language media that often glorifies caste-based violence (sexual and otherwise) and justify this interest by the old “it is what it is and that’s what it always was” argument. You will also probably concede that caste-based violence, of the kind depicted in your beloved tamil media, is very much a reality.
Now if I readily admitted that I voraciously consume and enjoy media showing beheadings, abduction, suicide bombings and random, senseless violence (of the kind readily observable in my family’s native country of Sri-Lanka)the SM community would be right to bash my apparent support/admiration for phenomena that produce demonstrable societal evils.
since you didn’t bother to quote the lines following, let me do it for you :
i did not say you are endorsing rape jokes – i said you are OK with them – big difference, my friend. and you laughing does indicate that you are OK with them. as you say, why ever be embarassed by one’s culture?
also, your arguments suffer more than a bit because of your avoidance of specific situations/questions that i, and others, put forth to you.
How much of that trollishness you attribute directly to what I wrote, and how much to the very liberal misinterpretations that followed.
Where’s the misinterpretation? Most of us expressed our misgivings/condemnation regarding the landlord’s attitude to the rape of Dalit women by upper caste men. You interpreted his attitude as mere nakkal, and condoned it as being part of the normal cultural/social milieu of rural Tamil Nadu.
It’s that latter point that I have trouble with, because I don’t see the particular value or usefulness of nakkal in this situation, even in rural TN. I think you’re wrong to transpose such an attitude onto rural TN culture, because I don’t think it exists in the manner in which you’re suggesting.
indianoguy – lola kutty reminds me of mr. nair, my history TA – ‘vaay vas the soviet union so successful in the vestern front? beecose, they had knoLedge (south indian ‘l’) that japan vud not invade in the yeast.’ good TA, he was.
282 -“you readily admit that you voraciously consume Tamil-language media “
Yes, absolutely.
“that often glorifies caste-based violence (sexual and otherwise)”
Sometimes it glorifies. Sometimes it doesn’t. Usually, they do both ie. often in first half they will glorify, and then cancel it out ( meaning person who glorifies it will meet a bad end ) after the interval. I can give very concrete examples of movies where it is glorified, and where it is denigrated. Both exist. As Kamalhasan once said, Tamil cinema is an ocean. You can make any statement about it that will simultaneously be both true and false! The volume of Tamil movies is huge, and over period of 50+ years, caste-based violence has been subjected to just about every conceivable angle in the movies.
“and justify this interest”
No, I don’t have to justify my interest. I’m Tamilian by birth. Grew up watching those movies almost exclusively. Therefore, continue to watch them. I’m interested in watching Tamil movies because I’m Tamilian, I speak the language, intuitively get the culture etc.
“it is what it is and that’s what it always was”
That is a statement about the industry. I’m not some censor board guy who gets to shape what Tamil cinema is. I just watch what they put out because I’m a consumer. btw, this statement is typically made when a producer is grilled on TV/newspaper, Saar, why Tamil cinema must have koothu paatu ( skimpy item numbers ) ? Why we show regressive attitude about violence towards women, such as rapist condescending to marry the victim instead of punishment for rapist ? Why this ? Why that ? etc. At this point, producer throws up his hand and says “Tamil cinema, it is what it is”. eg. That’s what Vasantha Balan Sir also said when they grilled him about Veyil @Cannes.
“You will also probably concede that caste-based violence, of the kind depicted in your beloved tamil media, is very much a reality.”
Why probably ? I absolutely agree. I will give it to you in writing. Caste based violence, discrimination, rape, all of these are very much real in TN. Tamil cinema also does a very graphic and accurate job of depicting these realities.
murali, I honestly didn’t understand the rest of your post regarding SM community’s right to bash somebody for watching something. To be precise, are you saying that because Dish Network, a USA corporation, broadcasts some 120 Tamil movies every month, majority of which contain some caste-based nonsense that SM-community might not find kosher, somehow this channel is flouting US laws and must be banned ? If so, I will watch these movies until they ban it. After they ban it, I can watch it from my Tivo. Also you get tamil VCDs DVDs from Canada, UK etc. No supply side constraint.
murali, are you saying I should stop watching Tamil movies because of what SM community might feel? Pls clarify.
Tambram # 218
“When I watched that landlord I just laughed out aloud and said yenna nakkal paaru.”
What is disconcerting is not your love for Tamil cinema but that you find rape to be a laughing matter.
Dude Yogi, for the nth time, I found the nakkal to be a laughing matter. Not the rape. How he said it, not what was said. Comic timing and the thimiru in his voice. Like I said before, its a primal response thats all. See I will give you some concrete examples of my milieu so you know where I’m coming from.
Then this Shanthi says, you bastard, I will make you eat your words.
Later on Shanthi gives birth to Rajnikanth. Then much later Sathyaraj comes to believe that his daughter has been raped by Rajnikanth’s son. So Sathyaraj rushes to Rajnikanth and says, when shall we fix their marriage ? Rajnikanth says, what marriage ? Just because my son slept with your daughter doesn’t mean marriage. Instead I will pay you. So, again, Check-a venama, cash-a venama, draft-a venama ?
At this point, heightened music, flashback etc. Same dialog that Sathyaraj used now coming back at him, that too by our Thalaivar Rajnikanth. Audience went absolutely crazy. Never mind it is basically the same recycled rape-joke. First you are making a joke if A rapes B. Then you are making same joke if B son’s rapes A’s daughtter !!!
This is all crude third-world humor. In time, that phrase about cheque, cash, draft acquired such potency. I have seen that phrase used so many times after that with that same dirty meaning.
btw, this Tamil remake of Trishul is called Mr. Bharath. They are showing it again on Dish this saturday. If you tune in and watch that portion, you might find it very funny too. ( Then again, you might not. Thats fine too. )
While I did enjoy your explanation this last line threw me off.
False macho?
so, hinting at exposed cleavage in a nonironic, but entirely moronic, fashion is a sign of a society that is not ‘sexually repressed’?
Tambram,
Every time you try to justify your position you end up making more objectionable remarks.Do you mean to imply that rape requires some sort of bravery ? That lack of rape is sexual repression?
I think healthy debate is good but this is veering into very unsavory areas
What false macho means ? I’m not understanding you. Anyway what I am saying is that these rape-jokes crudity etc. are pervasive in both movies as well as casual conversation among college students, village folk etc., but people don’t actually act out what they are saying. I mean percentage is very small compared to New Delhi. For eg. If you are a girl, you will get groped in a bus 100 times likely more in Delhi than Madras. But your average Tamil movie will have 100 times more crudity than your poprcorn Hindi movie ! This is all curious tidbits about groundreality in TN. Recently Outlook did one survey where they actually proved this. If you hang out on forumhub where people are super-defensive about all things Tamil, these explanations will pop up again and again. Basically TN is one huge hypocritic mess, but at same time a very safe mess 🙂
In Shankar’s superhit movie Gentleman, this girl wears skirt & tshirt and plays with the boys. So the boys try to rape the girl. Then hero Arjun beats up the boys. Then girl says, why they tried to rape me, I was just playing. So Arjun gives pearls of wisdom – see you are dressing in skirt, so boys are also getting lust! If you dress in saree like your sister, you will be safe !!! Not only did censor board not find this dialog super-sexist, they passed it with no cuts at all, and audience loved it too! Crazy.
Actually, not so crazy. I was discussing this movie with my colleagues and we discovered this scene is carbon copy of a famous MGR movie !!! This KR Vijaya wears skirt & tshirt and stands in field. So farmer tries to rape her. Then MGR separates the two. Then farmer says, she is so hot so I cannot contain myself!!! At this point, MGR turns to audience and addresses them directly – in TN you must wear saree and dress conservatively!!! Then next scene, KR Vijaya actually dressed in saree comes to samre field, and MGR, KRV & farmers do one jig and sing song about this dress sense!!! I even remember that song ippidi daan irukka vendum pombalai ( woman must be like this only!!!) This is all height of insanity, but would you believe MGR actually got elected as Chief Minister based on such shit. Vaazhga Tamizhagam !
damn you! i said insignificant films. titanic is a modern masterpiece!
the clip was interesting. but why does billy zane’s character sound like he’s from saidapet? and perpetually drunk? they should seriously make this into a half hour show – quite entertaining.
I was disturbed by your “have the balls” comment. False macho refers to men beating women, children, etc. Norma Cantu in an romanticized essay on Latino masculinity comes up with:
macho: strong enough to feed and protect himself and own family in any cirucmstance. In folk tales, the good macho = man of honor. false macho: puts down women or brualizes them because he is not respcted by the machos (in an attempt to get respect from the brutalized). mandilon: henpecked/whipped
By saying not having the balls to “actually rape or grope” where does that put your perspective? Is rape glorified?
Tambram:
So what the hell have you been arguing about? That rapist landlord obviously thought his raping was a gleeful not a shameful matter since thats how they depict it in your beloved tamil movies. Yet you have been tirelessly insisting that he was merely boasting of rapes not that he and his caste men had actually committed them. Now you admit “in writing” that such casteist rapes are indeed rampant. Isnt that the point of that video? So why are you objecting to it?
Those who find “humor” in things like rape must have something seriously twisted in their characters. We see this sickness right here in this thread. That other Tamil Brahmin, Rahul the callous comedian, makes “clever” jokes about rape, untouchability, child slave labor etc and has attracted a number of admirers even. You will also notice that a highly disproportionate number of the most tenacious defenders of casteism and elitism here, who also have the obscene habit of putting down african and hispanic americans, tend to be tamil brahmins.
Through my tears I reflected back to my trip to India, I had the same sick feeling in my stomach as we drove by the “trash villages” tears streamed down my face at that time too. But God made it clear to me that he made us (everyone) his hands and feet on this earth! We are too all pray for the people bound by their caste, and ask him, “what can I do” to make a difference to these amazing individuals. It is not enough to just “wish” it away, or tell yourself, “I can do nothing”. We can all make a difference, pray about how God can use you.
Exactly. She aspired to be a nurse or a doctor, and would have likely made a very good one too. The upper caste teachers and students humiliated and harassed her into quitting school. There are millions of such stories. Its a net loss for India, this squandering of precious human resources due to insane caste prejudices and selfishness.
I don’t think he’s objecting to it. Tambram is using the classical technique of “vancha pugazchi”. It is the technique of “Sangam poets” to disguise “venom” as praise. They sing such songs on the kings who they don’t like and there is a legend that some famous poet killed a king just by his song.
He is just ridiculing the “Tamil society / culture” by disguising as a “defender”. As I said before, “caste” of the different roles of the actors are not explicitly mentioned and if they are explicitly mentioned it is mostly for praising it. No one knows what criteria Tambram uses to figure out who belongs to “high caste” and who belongs to “low caste”. I’ve watched the same movies and cannot figure out the “caste” of such roles.
Prema, I’m The Tamil Brahmin. That other Tamil Brahmin is that other Tamil Brahmin.
Can I use this name when Salil and I take our act on the road? I am also flattered that you’ve been an ardent follower of my work so far.
It is all thanks to the benefits of reservation in Bigotry University. Tambrams, overreprezent!
You mean overra- ah, never mind.