302 thoughts on ““But now, all my dreams are broken.””
non-rural tamilian –
You are directly transposing cultural acceptability norms from america to Tamil Nadu. There it is offensive for someone other than an African American to use the n-word, for e.g. But I don’t see many people thinking that way here.
I understand why you bring this up and yes, my viewpoint of how I look at this “comedy” is I’m sure shaped by my 20 some years raised in the US. But then again, if I’d lived in India, maybe I would have the exact same sentiment, just by looking at views from Sri Narayana Guru, Gandhi, writers like Roy and so many people who are “Indian”; I’m not about to believe that other rural Tamil Nadus don’t feel this is funny…I’m sure many Dalits wouldn’t find this funny and I’m sure there are people of other castes that wouldn’t approve. There’s a lot in Indian culture that repudiates casteism and sexism and I’m sure that’s the same in Tamil Nadu too.
I just feel so sad about this crap, and I’m sure this sentiment crosses cultural boundaries.
Well, too late now for that ship to come back to port.
gasp! are you questioning my chastity? my belt is tightening in protest…
Well, too late now for that ship to come back to port.
gasp! are you questioning my chastity?
Where do you see me questioning it?
Hema, how could you?
Blame the woman, why don’t you? You probably can’t help it…it’s your innate “Tamilness” coming to the fore.
Or maybe it’s just nakkal?
Rahul,
Do you honestly believe Anand meant it when he writes “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Nadu”. I mean, literally ? I believe its just a rhetorical flourish.
Otherwise, why does he bother to watch not one or two but hundreds of Tamil movies. He can watch Renoir and Romer if he is that disgusted. But Anand simply plays a Naipual of Tamil Cinema Criticism. He knows his Tamil cinema backwards & forwards. His analysis is dead-on. He makes mince-meat of Ratnam. He agrees with the consensus view that Ratnam is a sort of intellectual midget when compared to a Shaktivel. Sometimes I think Ratnam is a just a Karan Johar born in Madras. His films are all gloss, no depth. Anyway, Anand is frustrated, that much is clear. But Anand is certainly glad that something like Kadhal is being made, and that these views are being openly aired in a democratic fashion, with total authenticity, no headfakes, no gimmickry. Urban sensibilities like 1 rape 10 rupees, 10 rapes 100 rupees are not indications of sophistication. Suhasini simply demonstrates that she is clueless when it comes to these issues. If it was a Vijaykanth movie, gaptaan would have simply smacked the villian then and there instead of talking mathematics. Therein lies the difference between authenticity and intellectual pretense. If you think its funny when Arvind Swamy pays 100 rupees to rape 10 women, by the same token, that landlord’s nakkal on thevars raping dalits is equally funny. Different strokes. I find both repulsive, but also funny at the same time. That is what nakkal does – it defuses these sort of uncomfy situations by sidetracking them with humor.
btw I’m glad somebody actually keeps up with contemporary Tamil cinema on SM. May I ask you if you have found anything as powerful and authentic as Kadhal ? I mean other than Pattiyal & Veyil ofcourse. Kalluri is still on the floors, few more months to go.
Where do you see me questioning it?
yes, my mistake – in fact, you have already made your conclusion. thanks for that 🙂 i appreciate your decisiveness.
Tambram, I wave the white flag. I need to recover my sense of logic by watching sequences like this.
If you think its funny when Arvind Swamy pays 100 rupees to rape 10 women, by the same token, that landlord’s nakkal on thevars raping dalits is equally funny
I think you skipped a step, Tambram. I’m not convinced that Arvind Swamy’s dialog would have been found funny by most people, and by the same token, the Thevar comment about raping Dalits is also not funny.
Saying “aha, nalla venum” (in the Arvind Swamy context) is not the same as saying “wow, that was so funny.”
Lurkers / regulars.
Is this the same case with other South Indian states and their movies?
yes, my mistake – in fact, you have already made your conclusion. thanks for that 🙂 i appreciate your decisiveness.
I was just saying that you’ve attempted to make the journey, not reached an, er, destination. (swift backpedaling ensues).
blame the woman, why don’t you? You probably can’t help it…it’s your innate “Tamilness” coming to the fore.
Sometimes, a man has to be the man, you know. It’s hard for you to understand.
I’m malyali, but American bred, so I’m not sure about Malyali cinema b/c I’ve never really gotten into watching it; But somehow I don’t think this would fly in Kerala (my guess), just b/c of the education of the state and the fact that there have been so many movements that repudiated caste prejudice. I’m from a lower caste in Kerala, but I’ve never faced discrimination there and my family is quite successful there and we have friends from all castes. And we don’t live in a large city…not that there really are any large cities.
Tambram, to answer your question seriously, there are several things to like cinematically about Kathal. I keep bringing it up only to describe the reactions it elicited when it played in the heartland. As for the scene from Indira you mention, it seems fairly clear to me that the scene is meant as a teaching moment, not for comedic effect. (And I agree that Mani Rathnam is a smug hack).
Any Keralites out there that can answer I am the Efing propagandist question:
Is this the same case with other South Indian states and their movies?
@209,
there we go abt all the madrasis.
but to answer your question: b-grade telugu movies have sometimes the same “humor”, but probably better than b-grade hindi movies. and the not necessarily b-grade bhojpuri movies. regular telugu kannada movies, don’t know of this type of humor. mallu, don’t know—but very unlikely.
low budget movies in general have more of this kind of plots, more so because it is a quick way to make buck with little effort. curiousity and shock factors. and it is not the effing madrasis, but also the venerable northies and scyths. and gasp the glorious whites as well, except it is called by a different genre—porn/grindhouse, etc. the later variety is not exactly legal in india, so you find the low budget movies taking on some of their roles. and they have no pretensions about doing anything else either—they don’t consider themselves any more high art than porn films do.
Tambram, I wave the white flag. I need to recover my sense of logic by watching sequences like this.
I was just saying that you’ve attempted to make the journey, not reached an, er, destination. (swift backpedaling ensues).
please don’t backpedal on my account. stick to your decision. as you say, sometimes, a man has to be a man (and call it as he sees it). rejoice in your tamil manhood.
ak # 188
, ‘dating is a waste of time – you could be doing so many other things with your time, kanna, like reading books
Thanks for the flashback moment.I think my dad used exactly those words once long ,long ago.
Hema, PS etc. I think #169 said it best. Don’t transpose American cultural sensibility to rural TN. Average Tamilian isn’t thinking so deeply about these things. It sounds funny, so audience laughs, that’s that. Idellam poyi araichi pannindu irunda yeppdi ? Some people will find it funny. Others will not. You can’t make any absolute conclusions on these things. When I watched that landlord I just laughed out aloud and said yenna nakkal paaru. It was automatic, I didn’t think one second about it. That’s because that is my background, I have seen 100 people like that landlord, they all talk like that, walk like that. They don’t mean harm or anything, (atleast I hope they don’t:) They are just very crude especially when using sexual inneundos and such. One of my neighbors, he used to point at this girl and say, ava vayasukku vandha odanne and make sign of forefinger through thumb circle. Now he was some 40 years old and that girl was probably 14, doesn’t mean he plans to rape her or something. Its just…how do I explain it ? Hmmm. See when Vasantha Balan Sir was asked ny western audience in Cannes last month why Veyyil was so crude, why so much violence/rape/beheading etc. What did he say ? He said “Veyyil, that’s why”. That is such a profound answer if you come from the rural TN backdrop. It explains everything. But if you want to poke holes and get into nitty-gritty, you will say what BS, heat/humidity is why people are like this ? Such a copout. Actually its not a copout at all. He’s being very honest. But that explanation may be unpalatable to a western audience. The maturity is in understanding that one set of people see it this way & another set see it differently, not in demonizing cultures. Yes there are Narayana Gurus & Gandhis, but there are also the common illiterate masses.
They are just very crude especially when using sexual inneundos and such.
sorry, but rape is rape. yes, sex is viewed differently in different cultures – so i accept your argument re sexual innuendos. but the man was talking about rape – forcible, physical and sexual assault. any nakkal in that is sheer vileness. as is your casual acceptance of it as ‘just’ nakkal.
and you still haven’t answered my questions in #172 & #176. avoiding much?
runa – so sorry that somebody else had to hear that opinion, as well. when i told my dad i might as well stop having friends, since i could be using my time in much better ways, he said, ‘that’s different, and you know it.’
Nor have you answered my question, since you can laugh out loud to this cinema –
would you find it funny if some white person made jokes about raping a Tamil (whatever the caste)??
Do you think the “illiterate masses” would find it funny?
ak,
No problem – I didn’t really listen to what he said 😉
But I love it that Tam/Desi? Dads are kinda the same all the world over
Tambram (#218):
That’s a big load of steaming crap. You’re also hiding behind the “everyone else is doing it” excuse, which is deplorable. You’re not six years old. You may think it’s “just jokes,” but I’m sorry, that’s not true. The prevalence of jokes like that are indicative of underlying attitudes towards sex, and in particular towards dominance and power. And humor has a way of enabling rationalization and provoking behavior. That’s what it does, that’s partly what it’s there for.
So jokes about hanging black men would be emblematic in a culture that hangs black men. Jokes about Puerto Ricans would be prevalent in a society that is racist against Puerto Ricans. And jokes about rape? You do the math.
I don’t mean to paint America or the West, or anywhere else as some place of incredible purity, but I want you to imagine telling those same jokes to your non-Tambram friends outside TN for a moment, hey? If the vast majority of them would find it offensive, there’s something wrong with the humor, not the rest of the planet.
So jokes about hanging black men would be emblematic in a culture that hangs black men.
The point is, it’s one thing to say something like this to a group of your fellow villagers, but when you’re being interviewed, or even just talking to an outsider, it makes no sense to do the “nakkal” thing. It’s like telling an outsider a joke that’s very clearly an inside joke, and then wondering why the outsider doesn’t laugh. It makes no sense, and it reflects a shocking lack of propriety on the part of the speaker. You may argue that propriety is not a part of rural life in TN, but everything I’ve seen suggests exactly the contrary. Propriety is a very big part of rural life, and those who go beyond the bounds of propriety pay a heavy price.
I think it’s too easy to dismiss this as “oh, rural sensibilities are just different from urban/Western ones.” The fact is, sensibilities about rape are pretty much the same everywhere. If the landlord in the video heard that his wife or daughter was raped, he wouldn’t be taking the “nakkal” approach at all. He’d be gathering up his fellow caste members armed with their katthis and aruvals to exact some village-style revenge. “Nakkal” would be completely inappropriate. So why is “nakkal” ok when the same man is discussing the rape of Dalit women? That is really what is at issue here.
One of my neighbors, he used to point at this girl and say, ava vayasukku vandha odanne and make sign of forefinger through thumb circle. Now he was some 40 years old and that girl was probably 14, doesn’t mean he plans to rape her or something.
Damn, it certainly is not a beautiful day in your neighborhood. Who says such stuff? And who condones it?
He said “Veyyil, that’s why”. That is such a profound answer if you come from the rural TN backdrop.
He and “oru take oru shotu” Bharati Raaja can go and pleasure each other. There are a lot of people in the veyyil who are not motivated to uncontrolled carnal acts in the midday sun.
So jokes about hanging black men would be emblematic in a culture that hangs black men.
I think this is what I love about South Park. Trey Parker and Matt Stone are incredibly aware of exactly what their humor means. They get away with it because they clearly don’t believe any of it for a moment. You could point to Starvin’ Marvin, or “Operation Human Shield” in the South Park movie.
And the jokes would mean nothing if America did not have a history of (and in some places, a fairly recent or current one) hanging black men.
If the landlord in the video heard that his wife or daughter was raped, he wouldn’t be taking the “nakkal” approach at all. He’d be gathering up his fellow caste members armed with their katthis and aruvals to exact some village-style revenge. “Nakkal” would be completely inappropriate. So why is “nakkal” ok when the same man is discussing the rape of Dalit women? That is really what is at issue here.
EXACTLY. Well-said.
stick to your decision. as you say, sometimes, a man has to be a man (and call it as he sees it).
“That’s different, and you know it.”
There’s nothing rural, earthy or Tamil about inappropriate audience laughter. That crap is unconscionable.
This sort of thing happened on the otherwise highbrow Marathi stage as well. Nana Patekar played a thug / politician / rapist. The audience kept hooting and hollering at his one-liners. Finally he had to ask the audience, “You do realise I’m bad guy, don’t you?â€
“That’s different, and you know it.”
that’s what he said…
hema, I’m not saying nakkal in landlord’s context is ok. I just identified what the landlord said as nakkal. Whether it is ok or not you go ask the landlord. It depends on his morals and his community background.
Another option is to say that I am wrong, it is not nakkal, landlord was just a vile SOB. That option has been exercised by umpteen posts already, you can also exercise that.
Also, hema, you are assuming interview is some solemn occasion where people immidiately become prim & proper and give serious response. I’ve been SunTV subscriber for a long time now. Interviews are quite informal, people occasionally use abuses and say things they shouldn’t. Sometimes that Yesudas woman ( Sun TV news reader ) is quite embarassed at what was said, but she continues to read the news gamely, pretending she didn’t really hear what was said.
I also want to ask this – Shouldn’t this SM Intern person delete comments such as 219,221,223 ? I’m just trying to give an explanation of a certain segment of the video from my context ie. rural TN background. Why bring my personal life into it ? I’m not endorsing rape-jokes or crudity in TN cinema. I’m saying this is what things are like back home ( well, my home, not yours ). I watch it because I am from there. Because I grew up on this sort of crude entertainment, I also will laugh at the jokes. Its a very primal response. I’m not going to pause at every joke and say, Wait a minute, should I laugh ? Is this kosher ? Why should I live my life second-guessing my natural impulse ? You really think you give me H1B Visa I will morph into a very refined person and mouth gems like “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Nadu”. I won’t. I am from rural TN, I watch Tamil cinema, almost exclusively, and that’s that. No apologies, no explanations. Why should I apologize ? For what ? I am not the one raping the dalit. I am just saying that landlord’s quote was nakkal. If you don’t agree, that’s fine.
I’ve been SunTV subscriber for a long time now.
Sure, me too (well, actually for my parents’ benefit). An interview doesn’t have to be prim and proper, but it’s clear that an interview does have some boundaries associated with it. Even on SunTV’s informal interviews, I’ve never heard anyone say something I would consider obscene or distasteful. Silly, maybe. But obscene, not so much.
In the video clip, the landlord was almost certainly speaking to an outsider. As far as I know, villagers don’t talk to outsiders in the same way they talk to fellow villagers. Shouldn’t the fact that he was speaking to an outsider have been sufficient in itself to make the landlord modify his normal “nakkal” manner?
As for whether it was “nakkal” or not, I really don’t care. Personally, it struck me more as unnecessary “thimiru” than “nakkal”, but it doesn’t change the objectionable content of the statement itself.
tambram, my point in #219, and the posts to which it refers, was that you are skirting the issue – would you be laughing if something like this happened to you personally? most of us know enough not to laugh at rape, whether or not we have experienced something like that personally. but, since you think rape jokes in general are OK, i sensed that perhaps putting into a personal perspective might show you how vile it is to even be joking about it, much less laughing at those jokes. but you’re not answering the question directly – only skirting the issues that you don’t want to answer.
If you don’t agree, that’s fine.
I don’t agree and I’m stating and stated my viewpoint. I know it is fine for me not to agree with you.
Why bring my personal life into it ?
You have brought your personal reflections about a movie that makes a joke of raping dalit women, and you come back and say “hey that’s my culture and I’m not going to apologize” — well now I’m asking you about about your reaction in situations, that are more than likely not part of your personal life, b/c you live in a society that decided it wasn’t okay to laugh at majority raping minority women jokes. You reap the benefit of that society. Even in India, b/c of the millions of people who decry such attitudes, you reap the benefit.
You can do whatever you want. You made your statement. I’ve made my statement and again I’d ask the same questions —
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil. Kindof the same situation as what your laughing about, but unfortunately what you are laughing about seems to be a very real situation in TN and other parts of India.
Hema, PS etc. I think #169 said it best. Don’t transpose American cultural sensibility to rural TN.
Here is what I think about your above statement:
I’m sure shaped by my 20 some years raised in the US. But then again, if I’d lived in India, maybe I would have the exact same sentiment, just by looking at views from Sri Narayana Guru, Gandhi, writers like Roy and so many people who are “Indian”;; It was mostly rural villagers who followed Gandhi around, not just educated elite.
I’m sure rural village culture includes a lot that abhors rape and hate. Anyways you are American or you live here now — isn’t about time you learned from your own experiences ? apparently not.
You really think you give me H1B Visa I will morph into a very refined person and mouth gems like “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Naduâ€. I won’t. I am from rural TN,…
So respecting women is an elitist, western concept that the earthy, rural folk just couldn’t be bothered w/? This double whammy of logic is making my head hurt.
ak, all kidding aside, I apologize if I offended you or touched a raw nerve. It’s hard to gauge stiff upper lips or boundaries on the Internet.
This double whammy of logic is making my head hurt.
rahul, you disappoint. of course i didn’t take offense. i also did not expect for you to back-pedal all the way back to the port. from our previous exchanges, i hope it’s obvious that i don’t take such issues too seriously, particularly not on this blog. and trust me, if i was really upset, i would have made that very clear. kid on…
Ah, ak, I knew it! You are that girl in every port.
Sheesh. You two should just get a room already.
Tambrams, rape-rezent!
is there not an organization that advocates for their cause. I want to do something. That’s some of the worst discrimination ever. Please, if anyone knows of an org, please post.
Rahul, that shit ain’t right. But dizzam if it ain’t fun-ay! You belong in TN cinemas, yaar!
non-rural tamilian –
You are directly transposing cultural acceptability norms from america to Tamil Nadu. There it is offensive for someone other than an African American to use the n-word, for e.g. But I don’t see many people thinking that way here.
I understand why you bring this up and yes, my viewpoint of how I look at this “comedy” is I’m sure shaped by my 20 some years raised in the US. But then again, if I’d lived in India, maybe I would have the exact same sentiment, just by looking at views from Sri Narayana Guru, Gandhi, writers like Roy and so many people who are “Indian”; I’m not about to believe that other rural Tamil Nadus don’t feel this is funny…I’m sure many Dalits wouldn’t find this funny and I’m sure there are people of other castes that wouldn’t approve. There’s a lot in Indian culture that repudiates casteism and sexism and I’m sure that’s the same in Tamil Nadu too.
I just feel so sad about this crap, and I’m sure this sentiment crosses cultural boundaries.
gasp! are you questioning my chastity? my belt is tightening in protest…
Where do you see me questioning it?
Hema, how could you?
Blame the woman, why don’t you? You probably can’t help it…it’s your innate “Tamilness” coming to the fore.
Or maybe it’s just nakkal?
Rahul, Do you honestly believe Anand meant it when he writes “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Nadu”. I mean, literally ? I believe its just a rhetorical flourish.
Otherwise, why does he bother to watch not one or two but hundreds of Tamil movies. He can watch Renoir and Romer if he is that disgusted. But Anand simply plays a Naipual of Tamil Cinema Criticism. He knows his Tamil cinema backwards & forwards. His analysis is dead-on. He makes mince-meat of Ratnam. He agrees with the consensus view that Ratnam is a sort of intellectual midget when compared to a Shaktivel. Sometimes I think Ratnam is a just a Karan Johar born in Madras. His films are all gloss, no depth. Anyway, Anand is frustrated, that much is clear. But Anand is certainly glad that something like Kadhal is being made, and that these views are being openly aired in a democratic fashion, with total authenticity, no headfakes, no gimmickry. Urban sensibilities like 1 rape 10 rupees, 10 rapes 100 rupees are not indications of sophistication. Suhasini simply demonstrates that she is clueless when it comes to these issues. If it was a Vijaykanth movie, gaptaan would have simply smacked the villian then and there instead of talking mathematics. Therein lies the difference between authenticity and intellectual pretense. If you think its funny when Arvind Swamy pays 100 rupees to rape 10 women, by the same token, that landlord’s nakkal on thevars raping dalits is equally funny. Different strokes. I find both repulsive, but also funny at the same time. That is what nakkal does – it defuses these sort of uncomfy situations by sidetracking them with humor.
btw I’m glad somebody actually keeps up with contemporary Tamil cinema on SM. May I ask you if you have found anything as powerful and authentic as Kadhal ? I mean other than Pattiyal & Veyil ofcourse. Kalluri is still on the floors, few more months to go.
yes, my mistake – in fact, you have already made your conclusion. thanks for that 🙂 i appreciate your decisiveness.
Tambram, I wave the white flag. I need to recover my sense of logic by watching sequences like this.
If you think its funny when Arvind Swamy pays 100 rupees to rape 10 women, by the same token, that landlord’s nakkal on thevars raping dalits is equally funny
I think you skipped a step, Tambram. I’m not convinced that Arvind Swamy’s dialog would have been found funny by most people, and by the same token, the Thevar comment about raping Dalits is also not funny.
Saying “aha, nalla venum” (in the Arvind Swamy context) is not the same as saying “wow, that was so funny.”
Lurkers / regulars.
Is this the same case with other South Indian states and their movies?
I was just saying that you’ve attempted to make the journey, not reached an, er, destination. (swift backpedaling ensues).
Sometimes, a man has to be the man, you know. It’s hard for you to understand.
I’m malyali, but American bred, so I’m not sure about Malyali cinema b/c I’ve never really gotten into watching it; But somehow I don’t think this would fly in Kerala (my guess), just b/c of the education of the state and the fact that there have been so many movements that repudiated caste prejudice. I’m from a lower caste in Kerala, but I’ve never faced discrimination there and my family is quite successful there and we have friends from all castes. And we don’t live in a large city…not that there really are any large cities.
Tambram, to answer your question seriously, there are several things to like cinematically about Kathal. I keep bringing it up only to describe the reactions it elicited when it played in the heartland. As for the scene from Indira you mention, it seems fairly clear to me that the scene is meant as a teaching moment, not for comedic effect. (And I agree that Mani Rathnam is a smug hack).
Any Keralites out there that can answer I am the Efing propagandist question:
Is this the same case with other South Indian states and their movies?
@209,
there we go abt all the madrasis.
but to answer your question: b-grade telugu movies have sometimes the same “humor”, but probably better than b-grade hindi movies. and the not necessarily b-grade bhojpuri movies. regular telugu kannada movies, don’t know of this type of humor. mallu, don’t know—but very unlikely.
low budget movies in general have more of this kind of plots, more so because it is a quick way to make buck with little effort. curiousity and shock factors. and it is not the effing madrasis, but also the venerable northies and scyths. and gasp the glorious whites as well, except it is called by a different genre—porn/grindhouse, etc. the later variety is not exactly legal in india, so you find the low budget movies taking on some of their roles. and they have no pretensions about doing anything else either—they don’t consider themselves any more high art than porn films do.
or this.
please don’t backpedal on my account. stick to your decision. as you say, sometimes, a man has to be a man (and call it as he sees it). rejoice in your tamil manhood.
ak # 188
Thanks for the flashback moment.I think my dad used exactly those words once long ,long ago.
Hema, PS etc. I think #169 said it best. Don’t transpose American cultural sensibility to rural TN. Average Tamilian isn’t thinking so deeply about these things. It sounds funny, so audience laughs, that’s that. Idellam poyi araichi pannindu irunda yeppdi ? Some people will find it funny. Others will not. You can’t make any absolute conclusions on these things. When I watched that landlord I just laughed out aloud and said yenna nakkal paaru. It was automatic, I didn’t think one second about it. That’s because that is my background, I have seen 100 people like that landlord, they all talk like that, walk like that. They don’t mean harm or anything, (atleast I hope they don’t:) They are just very crude especially when using sexual inneundos and such. One of my neighbors, he used to point at this girl and say, ava vayasukku vandha odanne and make sign of forefinger through thumb circle. Now he was some 40 years old and that girl was probably 14, doesn’t mean he plans to rape her or something. Its just…how do I explain it ? Hmmm. See when Vasantha Balan Sir was asked ny western audience in Cannes last month why Veyyil was so crude, why so much violence/rape/beheading etc. What did he say ? He said “Veyyil, that’s why”. That is such a profound answer if you come from the rural TN backdrop. It explains everything. But if you want to poke holes and get into nitty-gritty, you will say what BS, heat/humidity is why people are like this ? Such a copout. Actually its not a copout at all. He’s being very honest. But that explanation may be unpalatable to a western audience. The maturity is in understanding that one set of people see it this way & another set see it differently, not in demonizing cultures. Yes there are Narayana Gurus & Gandhis, but there are also the common illiterate masses.
sorry, but rape is rape. yes, sex is viewed differently in different cultures – so i accept your argument re sexual innuendos. but the man was talking about rape – forcible, physical and sexual assault. any nakkal in that is sheer vileness. as is your casual acceptance of it as ‘just’ nakkal.
and you still haven’t answered my questions in #172 & #176. avoiding much?
runa – so sorry that somebody else had to hear that opinion, as well. when i told my dad i might as well stop having friends, since i could be using my time in much better ways, he said, ‘that’s different, and you know it.’
Nor have you answered my question, since you can laugh out loud to this cinema –
would you find it funny if some white person made jokes about raping a Tamil (whatever the caste)??
Do you think the “illiterate masses” would find it funny?
ak,
No problem – I didn’t really listen to what he said 😉
But I love it that Tam/Desi? Dads are kinda the same all the world over
Tambram (#218):
That’s a big load of steaming crap. You’re also hiding behind the “everyone else is doing it” excuse, which is deplorable. You’re not six years old. You may think it’s “just jokes,” but I’m sorry, that’s not true. The prevalence of jokes like that are indicative of underlying attitudes towards sex, and in particular towards dominance and power. And humor has a way of enabling rationalization and provoking behavior. That’s what it does, that’s partly what it’s there for.
So jokes about hanging black men would be emblematic in a culture that hangs black men. Jokes about Puerto Ricans would be prevalent in a society that is racist against Puerto Ricans. And jokes about rape? You do the math.
I don’t mean to paint America or the West, or anywhere else as some place of incredible purity, but I want you to imagine telling those same jokes to your non-Tambram friends outside TN for a moment, hey? If the vast majority of them would find it offensive, there’s something wrong with the humor, not the rest of the planet.
What about hung black men?
Rahul – where do you come up with these links so quickly? 🙂
That’s more about insecurity than anything. See my comments on the next post 🙂
Idellam poyi araichi pannindu irunda yeppdi ?
The point is, it’s one thing to say something like this to a group of your fellow villagers, but when you’re being interviewed, or even just talking to an outsider, it makes no sense to do the “nakkal” thing. It’s like telling an outsider a joke that’s very clearly an inside joke, and then wondering why the outsider doesn’t laugh. It makes no sense, and it reflects a shocking lack of propriety on the part of the speaker. You may argue that propriety is not a part of rural life in TN, but everything I’ve seen suggests exactly the contrary. Propriety is a very big part of rural life, and those who go beyond the bounds of propriety pay a heavy price.
I think it’s too easy to dismiss this as “oh, rural sensibilities are just different from urban/Western ones.” The fact is, sensibilities about rape are pretty much the same everywhere. If the landlord in the video heard that his wife or daughter was raped, he wouldn’t be taking the “nakkal” approach at all. He’d be gathering up his fellow caste members armed with their katthis and aruvals to exact some village-style revenge. “Nakkal” would be completely inappropriate. So why is “nakkal” ok when the same man is discussing the rape of Dalit women? That is really what is at issue here.
Damn, it certainly is not a beautiful day in your neighborhood. Who says such stuff? And who condones it?
He and “oru take oru shotu” Bharati Raaja can go and pleasure each other. There are a lot of people in the veyyil who are not motivated to uncontrolled carnal acts in the midday sun.
what about this one? 🙂
Google 🙂 whips it out for me.
bytewords (#229):
I think this is what I love about South Park. Trey Parker and Matt Stone are incredibly aware of exactly what their humor means. They get away with it because they clearly don’t believe any of it for a moment. You could point to Starvin’ Marvin, or “Operation Human Shield” in the South Park movie.
And the jokes would mean nothing if America did not have a history of (and in some places, a fairly recent or current one) hanging black men.
EXACTLY. Well-said.
“That’s different, and you know it.”
There’s nothing rural, earthy or Tamil about inappropriate audience laughter. That crap is unconscionable.
This sort of thing happened on the otherwise highbrow Marathi stage as well. Nana Patekar played a thug / politician / rapist. The audience kept hooting and hollering at his one-liners. Finally he had to ask the audience, “You do realise I’m bad guy, don’t you?â€
that’s what he said…
hema, I’m not saying nakkal in landlord’s context is ok. I just identified what the landlord said as nakkal. Whether it is ok or not you go ask the landlord. It depends on his morals and his community background. Another option is to say that I am wrong, it is not nakkal, landlord was just a vile SOB. That option has been exercised by umpteen posts already, you can also exercise that.
Also, hema, you are assuming interview is some solemn occasion where people immidiately become prim & proper and give serious response. I’ve been SunTV subscriber for a long time now. Interviews are quite informal, people occasionally use abuses and say things they shouldn’t. Sometimes that Yesudas woman ( Sun TV news reader ) is quite embarassed at what was said, but she continues to read the news gamely, pretending she didn’t really hear what was said.
I also want to ask this – Shouldn’t this SM Intern person delete comments such as 219,221,223 ? I’m just trying to give an explanation of a certain segment of the video from my context ie. rural TN background. Why bring my personal life into it ? I’m not endorsing rape-jokes or crudity in TN cinema. I’m saying this is what things are like back home ( well, my home, not yours ). I watch it because I am from there. Because I grew up on this sort of crude entertainment, I also will laugh at the jokes. Its a very primal response. I’m not going to pause at every joke and say, Wait a minute, should I laugh ? Is this kosher ? Why should I live my life second-guessing my natural impulse ? You really think you give me H1B Visa I will morph into a very refined person and mouth gems like “Tamil cinema remains an embarrassment confined to Tamil Nadu”. I won’t. I am from rural TN, I watch Tamil cinema, almost exclusively, and that’s that. No apologies, no explanations. Why should I apologize ? For what ? I am not the one raping the dalit. I am just saying that landlord’s quote was nakkal. If you don’t agree, that’s fine.
I’ve been SunTV subscriber for a long time now.
Sure, me too (well, actually for my parents’ benefit). An interview doesn’t have to be prim and proper, but it’s clear that an interview does have some boundaries associated with it. Even on SunTV’s informal interviews, I’ve never heard anyone say something I would consider obscene or distasteful. Silly, maybe. But obscene, not so much.
In the video clip, the landlord was almost certainly speaking to an outsider. As far as I know, villagers don’t talk to outsiders in the same way they talk to fellow villagers. Shouldn’t the fact that he was speaking to an outsider have been sufficient in itself to make the landlord modify his normal “nakkal” manner?
As for whether it was “nakkal” or not, I really don’t care. Personally, it struck me more as unnecessary “thimiru” than “nakkal”, but it doesn’t change the objectionable content of the statement itself.
tambram, my point in #219, and the posts to which it refers, was that you are skirting the issue – would you be laughing if something like this happened to you personally? most of us know enough not to laugh at rape, whether or not we have experienced something like that personally. but, since you think rape jokes in general are OK, i sensed that perhaps putting into a personal perspective might show you how vile it is to even be joking about it, much less laughing at those jokes. but you’re not answering the question directly – only skirting the issues that you don’t want to answer.
If you don’t agree, that’s fine. I don’t agree and I’m stating and stated my viewpoint. I know it is fine for me not to agree with you.
Why bring my personal life into it ? You have brought your personal reflections about a movie that makes a joke of raping dalit women, and you come back and say “hey that’s my culture and I’m not going to apologize” — well now I’m asking you about about your reaction in situations, that are more than likely not part of your personal life, b/c you live in a society that decided it wasn’t okay to laugh at majority raping minority women jokes. You reap the benefit of that society. Even in India, b/c of the millions of people who decry such attitudes, you reap the benefit.
You can do whatever you want. You made your statement. I’ve made my statement and again I’d ask the same questions —
would you find it funny if a white was joking about raping a Tamil. Kindof the same situation as what your laughing about, but unfortunately what you are laughing about seems to be a very real situation in TN and other parts of India.
Hema, PS etc. I think #169 said it best. Don’t transpose American cultural sensibility to rural TN.
Here is what I think about your above statement:
I’m sure shaped by my 20 some years raised in the US. But then again, if I’d lived in India, maybe I would have the exact same sentiment, just by looking at views from Sri Narayana Guru, Gandhi, writers like Roy and so many people who are “Indian”;; It was mostly rural villagers who followed Gandhi around, not just educated elite.
I’m sure rural village culture includes a lot that abhors rape and hate. Anyways you are American or you live here now — isn’t about time you learned from your own experiences ? apparently not.
So respecting women is an elitist, western concept that the earthy, rural folk just couldn’t be bothered w/? This double whammy of logic is making my head hurt.
ak, all kidding aside, I apologize if I offended you or touched a raw nerve. It’s hard to gauge stiff upper lips or boundaries on the Internet.
Shodan, if I may humbly suggest a remedy.
rahul, you disappoint. of course i didn’t take offense. i also did not expect for you to back-pedal all the way back to the port. from our previous exchanges, i hope it’s obvious that i don’t take such issues too seriously, particularly not on this blog. and trust me, if i was really upset, i would have made that very clear. kid on…
Ah, ak, I knew it! You are that girl in every port.
Sheesh. You two should just get a room already.
Tambrams, rape-rezent!
is there not an organization that advocates for their cause. I want to do something. That’s some of the worst discrimination ever. Please, if anyone knows of an org, please post.
Rahul, that shit ain’t right. But dizzam if it ain’t fun-ay! You belong in TN cinemas, yaar!
Your joke was rape-rehensible, Rahul.
Ok, ok, I’ll stop.