There was a thought-provoking article in the SF Chronicle Sunday on the current quandaries faced by high-skilled foreign workers on H-1B Visas in the U.S. A very large proportion of these are Indian (49%), and in high-tech and computer fields (45%).
Currently, the system has problems on every side: first, representatives of software companies (chief among them Microsoft’s Bill Gates) have loudly asserted that they need for the number of available H-1B visas to be increased, as there are currently significant numbers of unfilled positions in many computer related fields (and this is even despite the explosion of outsourcing in the past five years). Secondly, there is confusion about whether H-1B should be understood as a temporary visa, or the first stage on the path to a green card; most Indians I know presume it’s the latter, while the government still seems to think it’s the former. And finally, the system clearly hasn’t been working very well for the immigrants themselves: it currently takes between 6 and 12 years for an Indian on an H1-B to be given a green card, even with employers willing to sponsor them. Confusingly, it takes much less time for H-1B workers from other national backgrounds to be given a green card once they find sponsorship. One of the surprises to me in the SF Chronicle article is the fact that the USCIS doesn’t even really know how many H-1B workers with Green Card sponsors there are:
Stuck in the middle is a federal government that has problems tracking the visas. Citizenship and Immigration Services, the federal agency that oversees this guest-worker program, can’t answer basic questions including:
— How many foreign-born professionals are working in the United States on H-1B visas now?
— What percentage of H-1B visa holders seek green cards instead of returning home?
— How many H-1B visa holders and family members are awaiting green cards?
“The cumulative numbers you are looking for simply aren’t available,” said Citizenship and Immigration Services spokesman Chris Bentley. “These are not issues we track.”
This admission of ignorance is really depressing: it suggests how low on the government’s priority list the H-1B workers really are. “It’s not something we track” is a way of saying, “no one really seems to care about this.”
Fortunately, a new organization has cropped up to advocate for H1-B workers: Immigration Voice. They’ve hired a PR firm to help them make their case in public, and they’re trying to influence the push to reform the H1-B system that is currently starting to work its way through Congress.
On a personal note, I should say that my wife started working in the U.S. (in the Bay Area) on an H-1B visa, and I’ve seen the ins and outs of this deeply flawed system at work. I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential to the U.S. economy, and that H1-B workers, who come to the U.S. with advanced university degrees and unique skills, ought to be fast-tracked to permanent resident (Green Card) status. As it is, 1.1 million people (according to Immigration Voice’s number) are currently waiting in limbo, unsure whether to plan on staying in the U.S. permanently — and everything that might come with that — or whether they should continue to presume they’ll be heading back to the countries they started from.
Finally, I also think second-gen desis in the U.S. — particularly all the desi lawyers out there — ought to be advocating for better treatment for the Indians who are here on H-1B visas. As of now I haven’t seen much of this.
A lot of indian immigrants i meet talk a lot about how much they hate america. how america has no culture. how great india is. how they are going back in a year. then 30 years later im still hearing the same thing.
I hear this from immigrants from other Asian countries as well. It really pisses me off. They should really leave and seek employment and schooling elsewhere as soon as they can if they hate it so much. Whatever cultures (note “-s”) America has, they detract from it.
Why? Because it makes me, a 2nd gen’er loyal–but not mindlessly–to the U.S., grateful for what it has given me and my hardworking parents, feel like my contribution to American society is being taken advantage of and that I have done something wrong. This is not the case, but damn, it cuts at me sometimes.
No offense. This was pure emotion.
I feel strongly that the H1-B system is essential to the U.S. economy, and that H1-B workers, who come to the U.S. with advanced university degrees and unique skills, ought to be fast-tracked to permanent resident (Green Card) status.
You need neither an advanced degree nor any unique skills to get a H1-B. In the current system, you need to apply early, have a college degree, pay the prevailing wage rate and you will be all set. I do agree with Amardeep that the H-1Bs need to be fast tracked to permanent residency. I am not a big fan of this H-1B racket. People on H-1Bs should be given green cards from the time they come to the US. In the current system, the spouses of H-1Bc cannot work. It makes no sense. The H-1Bs cannot move to permanent residency without an employer sponsor and they are at the mercy of their employer till they can get a green card. This obviously leads to a lot of abuse.
particularly all the desi lawyers out there — ought to be advocating for better treatment for the Indians who are here on H-1B visas. As of now I haven’t seen much of this.
I have taken some immigration cases before and they are extremely tedious and administrative. As far as H-1Bs are concerned, the desi lawyers cant really help them by providing pro bono legal representation etc. as the problems in the H-1B can only be fixed at the legislative level. Of course desi lawyers can do advocacy etc. but desi lawyer organizations are better places for networking than initiating policy changes. Time would be better spent by teaming up with Hispanic organizations but they dont really care about H-1Bs. I think the whole immigration, especially H-1B area is just not sexy enough for most desi lawyers to either advocate or practice.
This is very helpful, do you by any chance have a link to how the self application process works?
Thanks, please visit USCIS webpage.
Also,you want talk to an attorney or HR of your research organization for self application process. Talking/ hiring an attorney is essential. However, I know people who did application entirely on their own in early 90s.
Or, google = National Interest Waiver + Green Card
Or google = EB1 + Green Card
The H-1Bs cannot move to permanent residency without an employer sponsor and they are at the mercy of their employer till they can get a green card
There are a limited number of categories where you can sponsor yourself (the EB categories). Academics on H-1B visas often go this route, because there is no labor certification process, and therefore, the process is (allegedly) streamlined and much faster. My own anecdotal evidence suggests that EB filings can often take longer than H-1B filings, unfortunately.
Advocacy for H-1Bs shouldn’t happen at the immigration stage, it should happen at the legislation stage. Lawyers interested in these issues should be spending their time lobbying on Capitol Hill, not going to administrative hearings where some ALJ rubber-stamps your petition.
44 Classical Liberal Warrior Against Terrorism
They applied for 22 K visas their workforce is 72K. Thats more than a quarter.
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/144719.php/Infosys-looking-for-acquisitions-to-expand-global-footprint
Nice post. I agree with everyone–even if they don’t agree with each other:)
As a 2nd gen desi programmer w/ an advanced degree in cs from a “top” institution, I’m in the process of getting outsourced for 3rd time in about 6 years. (One time meant no job for six months & working for $7.00/hr to get by) There are still jobs but it’s still stressful, frustrating, etc., etc. I also know a lot of people in tight visa situations–which is also stressful, frustrating.
Anyway, I propose putting CEOs in stocks🙂
Time to brush off the resume (sigh)
To #54: EB used to be an academics-only route, now lots of techies with advanced degrees do it. If you have an MS with a few years of experience, EB2 is much better than LC in terms of waiting/processing. I got my gc on an eb2 self-app with an incredibly good+expensive lawyer.
EB1 is also not that tough. The phrase “National Interest Waiver” is parsed with a lot of leniency. You don’t need a Nobel. I know a chap who worked at Chrysler on the blackboxes ( every automobile in USA has blackbox, not so in India). Since blackbox captures data when your car is in an accident, you can argue that it protects the occupant. “Occupant = American”, “bunch of Americans = nation”, therefore “Blackbox researcher = working in the national interest” !!! Its a stretch. But that fucker got his gc on EB1 on exactly that argument! He was a mediocre techie at best, but he took a chance & got through. My lawyer advised me to try an EB1, I didn’t have the balls to lie through my teeth that I was a “national asset”! But enforcement is minimal, so lots of them do. A techie manager with a million dollar account might think he is national asset, but you have a six trillion dollar economy, what is one million in that ?:)
In the arts, EB1 is a huge farce. I know people who’ve shown “published works” in Indian press ie. written books published by Rupa or some other smalltime Indian publisher – not that hard at all, poetry published in Span etc. & gotten an EB1. Giving EB1 for poets is quite laughable imo – how do you quantify the value of a poem – and what’s the guarantee the poet will continue to be creative churning out poems after he gets the visa 🙂 If you show you have an award from India for Bharatnatyam or working in Theatre etc, again EB1 becomes viable – again very dubious, since neither is getting award in India that hard ( especially if you know the right people), nor is there significant economic value for Bharatnatyam in USA.
I think the USA needs to make it clear whether they want immigrants for variety ( cultural variety ie. poetry, Bharatnatyam etc. ) or for economic output ( techies ), or for populating underserved areas ( currently all Indian doctors must serve 3 years in a rural USA community ) or for watering your lawns ( mexicans ). All of these are legitimate uses, but atleast have different visas/quotas for each category. How does it make any sense for an MS with three patents to compete with a physics doctorate with 10 peer reviewed journals with Bharatnatyam dancer with a poet, all in the same visa ? Ridiculous.
First and the biggest problem is H1b has become a catch-all category. Different groups of immigrants with different aspirations and different types of employers — corporations, universities and research institutes with divergent priorities — are all forced to use it. It’s impossible to fix this category in a way that will please everyone — independent doctors/researchers/post-docs who should not be tied to an employer, skilled scientists and engineers with advanced degrees from US schools who are working for American corporations and who want to become permanent residents, foreign IT professionals on short-term projects working for employers with long-term focus on outsourcing the same projects, and all the different groups of employers — and also ensure that there is no abuse. A more radical solution is needed.
Second problem is the country-of-origin restrictions for employment-based immigration visas. This is not strictly tied to H1B category, but since most of the wait time and the consequent frustrations during H1b-GC transtition arise of out this restriction, it is not entirely unrelated. A lot has changed in US-India trade relations, technology partnerships, political dynamics and immigration patterns since these restrictions were put in place. USCIS has been inconsistent and not at all transparent about how visas from unfilled categories/countries are reused to ease the priority date pains.
Finally, the spouses of H1b — or at least some of the subcategories of H1b after breaking it down — should be allowed to work.
Regarding ABD lawyers, Rajiv Khanna at Immigration Portal and Sheela Murthy at murthy.com have done some great work. But they can only do so much, it is a legislative problem. Also in general, there is a conflict of interest between immigration lawyers working for employers and the immigrants who are the beneficiaries. Most employers do not necessarily dislike the 5-6 year indenture and the law firms benefit from a confusing and painful process involving a lot of paperwork.
As an H1-B, I survived two rounds of outsourcing . In my former big tech company, I saw the constant march toward lowering costs. The only way to stay ahead of the curve seemed to be to get out of the way since the outsourced jobs were definitely moving up the value chain. So I went ahead and got my MBA and now am a Management Consultant who advises on “cost-cutting” strategies .
To the commentators above,
No..All H1-B’s do not hate the American way of life but I do not have much respect for people who sit around and expect to be protected against hungrier competition from the developing world.
We do not leave our families and friends and come here to get our parents here on the dole. In fact, most H1-B parents I know including mine have to be “bribed and threatened” to make a trip here.
All of us do not speak with funny accents, have bad grammar and get bad haircuts. Maybe we all do so when we first come here , Fresh Off the Boeing, but a lot of us make conscious efforts to change and understand that it is necessary to do so if we want to fit in and prosper in corporate America.
im not saying everyone is. im actually pro increasing the populaiton of the US through importing motivated types. but…i just hear it a lot. grating on the ears.
Thanks Amardeep for bringin up this issue. I have been in US for more then 6 1/2 years and still life is too uncertain for me to do basic quality of life things like buy a house (I will have to leave if I get laid off). I have seen people with same time line from other countries get the green card years before and I am still in limbo. I thought the new bill will help people like me too. But it seems it pays to be illegal rather then bust your back to make sure every move made by you is legal.
Check this out, according to the new bill, if you were illegal before jan 1, you will immediately get an EAD and promise of reentry to united states and if you don’t have a criminal record then a guaranteed green card in about 10 years. The key word here is the EAD, who cares if you cant vote for a few years more if you can at least work wherever you want. But if you are here legally and stuck in the EB green card quagmire, not only they will not give relief to you, they will reduce the number of green card alloted per year. So this way millions of illegals will become legal and a few hundred thousand legals will stay stuck. You just got to admire the genius of the people who wrote this bill.
Immigration Voice is doing a great job and I encourage everyone in the similar situation to get involved there http://www.immigrationvoice.org
What a generally interesting and informative discussion.
*I don’t think it’s fair to say a second, third gen’er is ‘rabid and right wing’ because they might have a different idea about immigration than someone who is a first gen’er. It’s not about solidarity; why should someone have more solidarity to someone they don’t know, simply because they are more brown, than the country and community they live in?
**I’d like to see some healthy immigration reform because I am pro-immigrant, I want to see healthy levels of immigration to this country and because I love the ‘melting pot’ and can-do spirit of the US. The question is: what is a healthy level of immigration? It’s not so easy to answer that question. The last really large wave of immigration (in the early part of the 20th century) was stopped for a time (for lots of reasons, the depression and legislation, etc) and then things settled, and then they picked up again. I hear a lot of disgruntlement from people I thought I’d never hear stuff from, about how unfair the system is and the costs of large scale immigration.
***I think it’s a messy, bureacratic, ‘unfair’ seeming system where someone can play by the rules and get shafted, and someone else can bend the rules and make it through because of the inefficiences of the immigration-industrial complex (okay, that’s not funny, but it’s what it feels like). I honestly have no idea what to do, but it’s got to be fixed. I don’t want people to sour on the immigrant character of this nation. What a mess.
Also, can we back off on the anti-ABCD or anti-FOB stuff? It cuts both ways, by the way, it’s not just ABCDs sneering at FOBs. I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve heard newer immigrants making fun of people who have been here awhile. Just be friendly and decent to each other: is that so hard?
“aaal wee are saaayinggg is giive peeace a chaaance…”
HAHAHAHA!
Oh, and one final thing: I generally agree that I don’t have much sympathy for people who are afraid of competition (easy for me to say, given how regulated MDs are, but hey, I argue in my world to open up the programs more, so I ain’t one of ’em), it is up to the citizens of this nation to decide how they want their country to be, and what they want their country to be. Same thing with Indians deciding what India should be; I’m not an Indian citizen, so who am I to say?
*I’d prefer a point system, like Australia, rather than the family reunification thing. And, frankly, I bet there are some desis who, secretly, would be relieved. “Oh, sorry, I can’t sponsor (name of pain in the ass relative here) you! It’s just not possible under the new laws.”
Joke, joke. To lighten things up.
Haha, Puliogre in da USA! It would just suck if the thread got high-jacked by the disaffected. And, yes, it does bother me when people who live here complain so much about it. Whatever. You made your choices. Learn to live with them.
i think we should just let in people that have good degrees in economically useful subjects. and let in a $Hitload of them. I think the US has a lot of people with che-che majors.
You obviosuly have never lived in India. Choices is not “what to eat” but “will I eat”?
ABCD..down down ! FOB up up !
Ha….. 🙂
It is not hard to understand priorities in the immigration bill that is weighed against legal H1-B immigrants. The choice for a congressman is very easy…12 million votes or half-a-million.
I have seen so many talented people of all nationalities leave after they gets their master’s ‘coz they dont want to deal with the visa issues. As someone mentioned above, give them a green card with their graduate degrees. The universities have already done the the job of selecting the cream and giving them an education in the best system in the world. Now why exactly do you not want them to stay ?? Crazy !!!
You
If someone was making that kind of a choice in india, then came to the US. why would they then spend so much time talking smack about the US and talking up india?!
To #40 Tambram…
I believe you are misguided in this. As a foreign med grad, you ONLY have to take Steps 1 and 2 (both the clinical skills and written part) in order to get a US residency spot. Then you take Step 3 either at the end of your US intern year (the same as your US counterparts) or after residency is completed (I think this depends on which state you are in). This is true no matter which country you did your schooling in (Canada is on special terms with US and vice versa). In fact, in order to start a residency, regardless of origin, i.e., even US-trained, you have to have completed Steps 1 and 2. (there might be some programs with exceptions for step 2, but I’ve never heard of ’em. In fact, most schools require passing Step 2 before they will let you graduate)
Do you have any proof of this? I’ve never seen/heard of this before. You only have to do your residency training (and in some cases, only a fellowship) in the US, not repeat medical school (which is what earns you the MD).
Neale, I think MD’s point – which I agree with – is that if you move to the US, its the height of bad manners and bad taste to complain about it constantly or say that you “hate it”.
But I do not think it is wrong to speak up about unfairness /injustice / discrimination regardless of whether you are a guest /visitor/citizen.
There are good parts and bad parts to every culture whether Indian /American .
Why not just pick the good ones to emulate from each without painting the whole culture as bad ?
[i]I hear this from immigrants from other Asian countries as well. It really pisses me off. They should really leave and seek employment and schooling elsewhere as soon as they can if they hate it so much.[/i]
Well there might be a few who really dislike(hate?) America and are here and that is indeed messed up, and those people should be thrown out. But at least the ones I have talked to who express interest in going back, it’s more about just being where they consider home. They are here because they can experience a different place and cultures, acquire new skills and make some money and then they go back. Is that really so wrong?
Or you are assuming that the H1-B/F-1 program is a big favor and charity to let people come here and so people should feel gratitude? The H1-B program is there because the US feels it benefits the American economy and thats why it’s there. F-1 students do a lot of higher end research in most Univs and the Ugrads shell out big dollars. If people on H1-B/F-1 abide by the laws, pay their taxes and do whats expected of them (legally, work wise, etc) while they are here – I think it’s unfair to place expectations on them to be indebted to the US. It’s pure capitalism at work here too from both sides.
It’s not always about loyalty to flag and all that. I have many family members who bitch about Mumbai after spending 50+ years in that hellhole. They just have this romanticised version of their hometown frozen in their minds.
59: “The only way to stay ahead of the curve seemed to be to get out of the way since the outsourced jobs were definitely moving up the value chain. So I went ahead and got my MBA and now am a Management Consultant who advises on “cost-cutting” strategies .”
Good for you! What you did out of necessity has to become a program. There is no point in tinkering with immigration policy to correct what is a non-immigration issue – global competition. Even if the US scrapped the H-1B program altogether, the American IT worker will not automatically become safe from global competition. Offshoring will assume new shapes and sizes.
Where will it all end? The consensus among the economists, most of whom tend to be free market thinkers these days, is that open global competition ultimately benefits all players.
To counter H. L. Mencken, “Nobody went broke underestimating the wiles of American capitalism.” The world has been predicting the demise of the American economy the day the first textile mill closed in the fifties and the first shipload of Japanese automobiles arrived at our shores in the sixties. Since those turning points, check the GDP growth, unemployment rates, per capita income, and every other index used to measure a nation’s economic health.
To tabram #57
And your source of this is…? I’ve never seen/heard of this. I’ve met plenty of people in the last few years who were FMGs (both Indian and non-Indian), came here to do residencies, and then joined either a practice or did academics.
Immigration is a privilege, not an entitlement. So is citizenship, driving, etc. Instead of second gen lawyers defending H1-b’s, I suggest they defend second and third gen victims of h-1b visa abuse. Second gen’s welcome competition; on a level field.
If you don’t like the immigration system here, there is a very good alternative. Go back to India. I guarantee you won’t be charming snakes.
sure. but im sure that they dont say things like “bombayites have no culture. they Are stupid and lazy”, all while taking full advantages of the ocnvenience and benefits of living there. maybe they do. i dont know. seems wrong though.
if your born here, it is an entitlement. what did the ft fck on the desk next to me (or me for that matter) do to deserve this privaledge. nothing. my dad came here. i was born here. i am a citizen.
To 71: I never said you have to repeat medical school. afaik, whether you have an MBBS from India, or an MBBS+MD, it makes no difference to the application procedure in the US ie. your MD portion from India is basically worth nothing. The Indian-MBBS is 5.5 years, the Indian-MD an additional 3 years – but the US only considers the Indian MBBS portion. More here. I’ll check with one of the desi docs out here.
73
of course, it is not charity – this is clearly a symbiotic relationship. and even if the indian employees are not more qualified than american counterparts, they still fulfill a need of the american companies. however you cannot forget that in the realm of politics and international law, allowing somebody from the outside to reside in your country is a matter of privilege, not right. eventually, perhaps we will have some sort of global citizenship, but that is clearly a long while off. for now, we have to accept that, given the delineation of nation-states, nobody has any right to live or stay in a country of which they are not a citizen (and as the case may be in the US, sometimes not even that).
74
this is true of almost all migrants, international or otherwise. i suppose, a sentimental loyalty. it is so for my parents’ generations (who came after the 1965 laws) and they still refuse to accept how much india has changed – in many ways they are far more conservative and traditional than their counterparts who stayed in india.
And your source of this is…?
Go to USCIS webpage.
There is a visa category (I think a subcategory within H) for physicians and nurses that requires them to serve in rural areas for three years for that visa. The point is: anything less than a smart attorney knows all the rules and visas, and they do have to keep up with the changes. There is a visa named after all the alphabets, then number suffixes.
Dudes, people came and go on their free will, they are no obligation to be “subservient” to the nation of residence, and not talk smack. Should they kiss your a, and every Amrikan’s a all the time. Some of the people complaining here, if I met them in IRL, I would complain about USA too. I am glad my girl friend is an blonde exotic dancer, bambi. Yes, I am very happy with USA.
Floridan #75
Well said !
Now if we could get Lou Dobbs to shut up on his doom and gloom scenarios for the American Economy ! This might be one of the most challenging times that the American Economy has had to face in terms of global competition but I have no doubt that in the need we will all be better off. So what if China turns out to be the biggest economy in the world; a richer and a more evenly prosperous world can only be a good thing.
Puliogre, MD, Runa I am sure you understand that it is not easy to leave one country and live im another. Lock (steel trunk), stock (some good pickle), and barrel (of tradition) :-). Of course, there will be resentment. I see it more as a reaction. Something instinctibe that evens out as time passes and a “second” maturity sets in . But i am sure for the most part Indian immigrants do appreciate the basic driving forces that make this country what it is.
To #76: MSU & HPSA Have a dozen neighbors, all of them “doing time” in this MSU. None of them would be here voluntarily, they can make the big bucks in a large metro.
i agree. and this a frequent argument against treating naturalized and native-born citizens differently – for instance naturalized citizens may not become presidents, and there is always that threat of deportation. i feel, in many ways, a naturalized citizen has displayed far more loyalty to the country by moving here and staying and affirnatively seeking citizenship, as opposed to the other category, who are citizens by default. but in the current parlance of politics, gaining citizenship is never a right, and always only a privilege. it is a position that may or may not be justified, but it is what it is…
Neale – not everyone who comes to the US is in such dire straights back in India, you know that as well as I do. what I am saying is, why live in the US and complain about it ? Will you be happier? And by complain, I don’t mean make honest criticisms, I mean, complain about daily life here while romaticizing something that was never perfect to begin with. It’s easy to do and very human. And it’s not the best way to live life.
not saying they should kiss our @ss. just saying they should either preffer the US, and stay here, or they should preffer !ndia and go back. why stay here, and complain constantly about how bad it is and how great india is.
Kush:
Ok, that might be for a special visa as you stated, but that is not true for ALL indian doctors, which is what the original commenter was implying, at least the way it was written.
Tambram:
When you say “re-do your MD”, that implies (at least to most folks familiar with the US medical system) that you are redoing the schooling to get your Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree (which is what 4 years of med school in the US gets you). Apparently your usage/application of MD differs from this – that this is an additional qualification you earn in India.
If citizenship has rights, does it have duties and responsibilities too?
does peanut butter go with jelly?
i don’t know about anybody else, but in my family, complaining is a really more of a pastime than anything else. i mean, my mom and aunts complain just to complain (in tamil, i think the best word for it is ‘polambal’ – sort of like empty complaining). it is to the point that i just tune it out. and it’s not just them – some desis have a tendency to just complain – see the glass as half empty. i don’t know what to make of it, but i have learned that with some people, it really means very little.
Tambram #57:
I didn’t mean to imply that EBs were available only to academics…just that the route seems more common in the academic world. Sorry about that.
Just FYI, self-sponsorship (either as EB-1 or EB-2) has become a huge headache since the reorganization of the INS, and its move to Homeland Security from USDoJ. It’s taking approximately the same amount of time (and in some cases, longer) as it does with LC. I’m not sure why, but there seems to be some sort of roadblock. This is entirely anecdotal, and it wouldn’t surprise me to discover that the statistics tell exactly the opposite story.
yeah…but saying that that people around you “have no culture” doesnt sound like empty ‘polambal’…
Okay, now I’m hungry, No Desh.
I was responding, obliquely, to some others upthread…..we have a lot of talk about rights and how it’s just a lottery that you are born in the US. Well, it sort of is. It’s a stroke of luck to be born here and have the advantages this country has. It didn’t just happen; it happened because of lots of hard work, good (and some bad) governance, a whole history that is messy and striving and difficult. People living here worked hard to make the US what it is; and people have died for the ideals represented. That’s all I’m saying. It’s not all about rights, and that’s a reminder to ABCDs like myself as much as anyone else 🙂
i think it does. a broad category of civic duties probably encompasses this. for instance, voting in elections is seen as a duty – esp. outside of the us, and in some countries it is mandatory – rather than a right. other countries require mandatory army service, or such the things. loyalty could also be considered a duty – to vow not to commit treasonous acts etc.
MD – I think the whole responsibility bit is lost on many folks (across the spectrum) when it comes to rights.
That’s interesting ak. I wonder if it is a cultural difference? I make the point, jokingly, to my mother from time to time. The glass is half empty, it seems, when she talks about some things. It’s just a way to talk, I suppose. Whereas, I was taught to be all ‘glass half full’ from school onwards. I also said the pledge of allegiance as a kid and I kind of liked it. I mean, I was sort of comforted by the ritual of it. Kids don’t do that much these days, eh?
It’s both amusing and sad to see second generation (and first generation) immigrants so interested in shutting the door behind them. It’s quite true that H1-B’s take jobs from and reduce the wages of some American-born tech workers, just as it’s true that illegal immigrants take jobs from and reduce the wages of unskilled workers in the US.
That doesn’t mean it’s wrong – it just implies that business and economic interests have so far outweighed the interests of local workers in the immigration debate. The H1-B isn’t an easy path to a green card precisely because it was never meant to be one! Are H1-B’s underpaid relative to their skillset? Quite often. Have they also lowered the prevailing wages in the tech industry? Absolutely. Outsourcing/offshoring have as well. That’s all simple labor supply and demand in the age of globalization.
But we are all eating the fruits of globalization, whether it be cheap Chinese manufactured goods, the explosion of the online world built in part by H1-Bs, or the exceedingly cheap construction/landscaping/service work provided by illegal immigration.
In the end, a rational immigration policy will have to balance the needs/fears of the domestic workforce with the needs of business. My personal take on the H1-B situation, having seen many, many cousins brave it, is that it is contorted and bureaucratic, but it’s not unreasonable. Those that have returned to India have used their American experience to land good positions in the fast growing economy there. The great majority have stayed, and most of those that have been diligent have gotten their green cards now. While I’ve heard grumbles about the process, I doubt any of them would have willingly parted with the opportunity.
To 89 – MD in USA means 4 years of med school after college. In India, MBBS = 5.5 years of med school after 12th standard ( what do you call “12th std” in USA? high school ? i have no idea ) MD in India = Additional 3 years after MBBS ie. postgrad med.
Your average Indian student-doctor is slicing bodies at the age of 17, and works in his dad’s “doctorshop” with attached “dawaidaru dukaan” when barely 20 with freshly minted MBBS. Small percentage go on to do MD in India. Another small percentage take Step1/2 & come here to do American MD. A third small percentage does the Indian MD, then takes the Step1/2, thereby wasting the 3 years. Its a big mess.
btw, you are saying you know Indian docs who did not go through MSU/HPSA – what’s the procedure in that case, can you explain. Thanks.