582 thoughts on “Why Does Caste Matter to US?”

1. <

   blockquote>But to share another anecdote…several years ago a friend (who is Jatt) and I travelled in Europe for a few weeks. In Germany, we stayed at the home of someone who was basically from a ‘Chamar’ background from the same village as my friend’s parents. This ‘low-caste’ man had married an Italian woman and was living in Germany with their two half-desi kids. Neither the wife nor the kids had ANY clue about the man’s low status back in India, and the exploitation his family had gone through. In those cases, I can see why you would want to shield your kids from that info, just to protect their self esteem. <They had no idea that when my friend was visiting them, staying in their home, there was a very definite caste dynamic being played out just in the way that my friend and this man interacted with each other (my friend was very respectful and polite, but there was still something unspoken yet understood between them). /blockquote>

   Experienced that awkwardness a few times as a foriegner in India when associating with “higher caste” people with food and eating utensil taboos myself. Things like not being allowed in the kitchen, etc.

   Regarding the South Indian Orthodox Vaishnava culture, a friend of mine, while associating with a guru’s family down there, although treated very lovingly and accepted as a disciple, still was not allowed to enter the kitchen and eat off of the family plates.

2. What exactly is the difference between dalits and OBC?

3. Dalit is a new name popularised in Northern India in the last 20 years or so. Dalits refers to the jaathis that were included in a schedule by the British and carried forward in independent India as the Scheduled Castes (SC). Typically these were the jaathis that traditionally were in professions considered impure like animal tanning, cleaning and sanitation (including toilet cleaners in this century) and in rural areas were mostly landless and worked on others lands. OBC stands for Other Backward Castes, again used in the north, which refer to certain jaathis that are not Scheduled Castes but are still on average backward economically, educationally and in some cases socially. These are loose terms and the haathis included varies from state to state.

   Here is a list of Scheduled Castes and Tribes listed by each state.

   Here is central government list of Backward Castes. Use the pull down menu to look at the names of the jaathis listed there.

4. The OBCs called Backward Cates (BCs) or Most Backward Castes (MBCs) depending on the states and their classification systems also get preferences and reservations (quotas) in many fields. Needless to say every jaathi wants to be classified as backward. Here is a take on jaathi with a focus on backward Castes.

5. I was comment #400! How come it’s 399 now?!

6. PG, my anecdote (which you quoted in #401) didn’t have much to do with ritual purity per se (although that might have been somewhere in the far recesses). Because here we were guests in his home. It wasn’t like he invaded my friend’s kitchen or anything; if at all it was the reverse. The dynamic I was talking about was more subtle…simply the knowledge the two men shared that in the social system they both came from, one (who happened to be the host, and additionally was also at least 15 years older than us) was considered very low, whereas the other was considered high status. Not really in a ritual sense, but still in terms of hierarchy based on birth. To give you some more crude details…this ‘low-caste’ man was actually very fair, tall (about 6’3″), and handsome…my friend said that what that meant was that a Jatt had probably had an affair with his mother (who was known to have been very beautiful apparently, and been exploited by many higher-caste men). Furthermore, this very man had done hard farm-labor for the family of my friend when he lived back in the village before moving to Germany. And unlike people in villages who come from landed families, who like to behave boisterously, this man was humble, shy, and quiet. So he had been very conditioned by the circumstances he grew up in, and the poor status he had been assigned to. I was getting a free anthropology or sociology lesson, but it was very disturbing to see this man be so broken. And he was actually taller, better-built, and more handsome than either of us. When we would be on the streets of his town in Germany, really hot women would turn and look at him. Actually there were several other incidents that happened in that short little stay that I could talk about, but I’ll end here. Except to add one more interesting tidbit…this man self-identified as a Hindu (Aad-dharmi). This really bugged my friend (although he didn’t say anything). I think dominant groups in India always seek to maintain control, including over religious affiliation, of weaker groups.

7. Except to add one more interesting tidbit…this man self-identified as a Hindu (Aad-dharmi). This really bugged my friend (although he didn’t say anything). I think dominant groups in India always seek to maintain control, including over religious affiliation, of weaker groups.

   Bugged my friend because he thought he should identify as a Sikh.

8. I was talking about the Bangladesh massacres of 1971 at the hands of the punjabi and pathan army of West Pakistan, not the War of Independence of 1857.

   Prema, I, too, was talking about the 1971 BANGLADESHI War of Independence. I’m not disagreeing that there was a huge “race” element (Punjabi/West Pakistani vs. Bangla/East Pakistani), I’m just taking issue with the statement that the mislaid pride that SOME Punjabis have in their supposed Scythian ancestry was the primary causal link for the disgusting levels of violence perpetrated on the Bengali people prior to and during the War.

9. Regarding the South Indian Orthodox Vaishnava culture, a friend of mine, while associating with a guru’s family down there, although treated very lovingly and accepted as a disciple, still was not allowed to enter the kitchen and eat off of the family plates.

   South Indian Sri Vaishnava culture is rife with casteist distinctions. There are even distinction between sanyasins! Non-Brahmana sanyasins are called ekangis. Every major Jeeyar I’m aware of is a Brahmana, including those who travel to the states, like Chinna Jeeyar. They all uphold the Vedic divide, viz. that Vedic mantrams are only available to Brahmin males; women and sudras must seek salvation through bhakti/prapatti. Ramanuja himself upheld the Vedic divide. Why anyone but Brahmanas would feel comfortable in such sampradeyas is beyond me. Contrast this with ISKCON – Prapupadha (who was Kayastha, not Brahmin) was far more open to outsiders and held that varna was based on guna and karma, not birth.

   Except to add one more interesting tidbit…this man self-identified as a Hindu (Aad-dharmi).

   The aad dharmis are a breakaway sect from Sikhism, consisting mainly of Ravidasi Dalits – they were discriminated against within the Sikh fold. I don’t think they self-identify as Hindus?

10. The aad dharmis are a breakaway sect from Sikhism, consisting mainly of Ravidasi Dalits – they were discriminated against within the Sikh fold. I don’t think they self-identify as Hindus?

    I’m not sure, but this guy’s Italian wife kept insisting that he was a Hindu. Maybe that was just something he had told her because he didn’t want to get into it too deeply with her.

11. Amitabh what do you think about the disturbances in Punjab? The article I posted in the newstab [link] suggests that there might be a Dalit/Jatt schism that underlies it, although the immediate cause is politically motivated. It also says that there are parallels with sectarian conflicts that contributed to the period of militancy and violence in the 1980s.

12. Bugged my friend because he thought he should identify as a Sikh.

    So Sikhism is also one of these “inherited” and “ethnic” religions ??? I think the Gurus would not be very happy to see this state, but what do I know. (and I dont care also) Religion is something that has become just like ethnicity everywhere in the world. Thats what I hate about it.

13. So Sikhism is also one of these “inherited” and “ethnic” religions ???

    It shouldn’t be, but how often does reality match theory? I think there would be a lot less strife in the world if people who identify with religions focused on the translating theory into action instead of going around half-cocked.

14. “I was comment #400! How come it’s 399 now?!” Forget about the past, Amitabh. I say let’s push to to 500. I’ll help where needed. The only way to be sure that you do #500 is to actually do 498 to 502. As for the intern shutting down the thread, we can try to fly under the intern’s radar by mentioning caste a lot. OK, you go first.

15. al beruni has posted another editorial in the newstab [link]which also says that the real underlying driver of the violence in Punjab is caste tension, with Dalit Sikhs turning away from traditional Sikhism because they are being persecuted and discriminated against by Jatt Sikhs. Interesting in the context of Amitabh’s comments about dominant groups in India always trying to maintain control over weaker and disenfranchised groups.

16. Lots of Indians claim some mythical non-Indian ancestry. I heard that Vivekananda, a Bengali, claimed to have Tartar and Mongol blood. Maybe it’s true. If so, someone let this Bengali girl know. I want to be able to rustle up some wild nomadic warriors in my (distant) past.

17. red Snapper,

    I think you’re spot on. It looks in part like a caste-conflict to me.

18. I just discovered that the founder of the Bahujan Samaj Party, Kanshi Ram, was actually from a Dalit Sikh background.

19. Red Snapper, You heard it here first 🙂

20. “They all uphold the Vedic divide, viz. that Vedic mantrams are only available to Brahmin males; women and sudras must seek salvation through bhakti/prapatti. “

    Actually, all of them are supposed to seek salvation through sharanagathi or surrender-they don’t really do the whole karma/jnana yoga route. The Alwars actually, while never saying anything disparaging, never really give much importance to vedic rites.

    I agree with you that orthodox Sri Vaishnavas in the South are quite casteist, particularly Chinna Jeeyar Swami-plus I can’t jibe with literalism of the Bhagavatam etc.. Being from Southern Andhra Pradesh and non-Brahmins, my family, if pressed, would profess leaning Vaishnava, but that has more to do with everyone in the Rayalaseema region of Andhra having a special affinity for Venkateshwara and Alivelu Manga, Saint Annamacharya than being in an orthodox sampradayam. However, the crux of Sri Vaishnava theology, the Divyaprabhandam is the part that inspires me, I tune out when it comes to the later acharyas.

    When I was younger, ISKCON used to irritate me, but now I think of all the Sampradayams, I feel they probably hold more true to the message and spirit of Nammalwar.

21. You know, I don’t live to shut down threads. Theoretically, a thread could continue indefinitely if people were civil and we were having a productive discussion. Have at it…to 500 and beyond.

22. A step ahead as usual Shodan!

23. However, the crux of Sri Vaishnava theology, the Divyaprabhandam is the part that inspires me, I tune out when it comes to the later acharyas.

    Is that “pallandu pallandu pallayiratthandu” bit that’s sung after the main pooja at some temples considered part of the Naalayira Divyaprabandham? Also, are there lyrics to it available online somewhere?

24. “pallandu pallandu” is the first pasuram from the thiruppalandu. you can find the entire thing here:

    http://www.acharya.org/divyapr/ayiram1/01-tpallan10/0001-thiruppallANdu-eng.pdf

    i think that it is part of the nalayira divyaprabandham; it is part of the periyazhwar thirumozhi.

25. Hema:

    Is that “pallandu pallandu pallayiratthandu” bit that’s sung after the main pooja at some temples considered part of the Naalayira Divyaprabandham? Also, are there lyrics to it available online somewhere?

    I believe this is known as “satamurai”, A good resource for everything dravidavedam is http://www.ramanuja.org.

26. The Alwars actually, while never saying anything disparaging, never really give much importance to vedic rites.

    Interestingly, the alwars -including the so-called Sudras like Nammalvar and Harijans like Tirrupan Alwar are depicted in temple reliefs wearing the sacred thread, which, as we know, is only available to dvija (in the South really Brahmin) males…

27. Red, Didn’t mean to crow about finding something on public domain. OT. Anybody else following Hitchens-Falwell drama?

28. milli and HMF: thanks for the info. I’m always annoyed by the fact that I don’t know the words to “pallandu pallandu” on the rare occassions when I make it to the local temple.

    wearing the sacred thread, which, as we know, is only available to dvija (in the South really Brahmin) males…

    Is that really true? I’ve been to a couple of non-Tambram weddings in the south where the groom was wearing a sacred thread, typically on the outside of his shirt (i.e. very visible to guests).

29. Is that really true? I’ve been to a couple of non-Tambram weddings in the south where the groom was wearing a sacred thread, typically on the outside of his shirt (i.e. very visible to guests).

    Upanayanam, the thread ceremony, has historically been only available to dvija males, and that’s the way it stands in Smarta and Vaishnava sampradeyas led by Brahmins today. There are some upstart castes that have asserted dvija status recently, like the Komatti Chettis, and some others in Kerala like Ambalavasis, so it is possible. In Non-Brahmana weddings, historically only Pauranic as opposed to Vedic mantrams are employed as well. In the states, everyone happily uses Veda mantrams.

30. Hitchens-Falwell drama?

    I don’t know if Falwell will be able to defend himself anymore.

31. just a quick note: sattumurai is a component of the aradhanam. there are “short” and “long” versions of sattumurai, depending on the occasion/time constraints. performing sattumurai will include recitation of various parts of veda, divyaprabhandam, etc. so, a sattumurai could include recitation of the thiruppallandu. this is my basic understanding, but i could be totally wrong on this.

32. Milli, I can consult the experts and have an answer at a later juncture.

33. To 428 and 429 – In Lingayat caste, the women wear sacred thread ( My neighbors in India are a good Lingayat family ). It is worn outside the blouse but under the sari so you can see the thread. Tambram people like me wear the thread under the white banian so you cannot see it unless we wear white transparent shirt, then when we start sweating in summer months June July time you can see outline of that thread.

34. “Interestingly, the alwars -including the so-called Sudras like Nammalvar and Harijans like Tirrupan Alwar are depicted in temple reliefs wearing the sacred thread, which, as we know, is only available to dvija (in the South really Brahmin) males…”

    Nevertheless, tradition holds that they were in fact shudras. The depiction of later icons isn’t really much reason to conclude that they were in fact brahmins and the whole thing was a scam…Quite a few bodhisattvas of Nepali and Tibetan origin are often shown wearing a sacred thread-doesn’t mean they were brahmins either. The Alwars, like saints in any tradition, became deified, and as Sri Vaishnavism became increasingly tied to ritual and practice, they probably started including all the ornaments they normally placed on a deity. Nevertheless, tradition holds that they were in fact shudras, and no one disputes this.

    Also, which kovils are you referring to? I haven’t seen many base reliefs of the Alwars-usually only Utsava murthis or smaller images. The images of Nammalwar that I’ve seen usually don’t have the phoonal etched into the image, and I’ve actually not seen him with a white one either.

    Also, on a another note, Andhra Kshatriyas and Vaishyas both can wear the sacred thread if they want-however, most, even quite religious ones, opt not to and some just do it a perfunctory pre-marriage ritual and usually don’t wear it again unless they are doing some sort of samskaram. Plus, given the whole free for all reservation policy-being identified with soemthing like that just doesn’t make sense.

    Also, regarding Vaishnavites, there is an interesting Tamil group called saaththaadha Iyengars-traditionally they supposedly didn’t identify with any of the four varnas, although some recently started wearing the sacred thread I guess to boost themselves up socially.

35. Sahej #317

    But, I do think that as a community, the jatt community does have a few things to be proud of. They by and large participated in an anti-caste movement, and made significant gains, while expressing at least a modicum of egalatarian sentiment. Udham Singh, aka Ram Mohammed Singh Azad, was not an alien figure in the community, for his indepedence agitation and egalatarian tendencies.

    Which anti-caste movement did the Jatts participate in? Most Jatts think Udham Singh was a Jatt, as is referenced as such in many Punjabi songs and Jatt websites. When they find out that he wasn’t one of them, most Jatt are shocked and insist that he must be Jatt because of his martial characteristics… so much for caste stereotypes. I don’t think significant gains have been made by Jatts in the anti-cast movement, instead i think its worsened. In the past most Jatt sikhs did not used caste based last names or have caste based gurdwaras or the rabid caste based politics. I think its a case of a previously oppressed caste becoming the oppressor of other castes due to their sheer numbers in Punjab and abroad.

36. Tam Bram

    Upanayanam is meant to intiate a Brahmana, Ksatriya or Vaishya boy into Vedic studies. The lingayats consider the Vedas to be nonsense, so its unlikely to carry the same significance as one worn by Hindu dvijas.

    DC:

    No I’m not suggesting they were Brahmins, just that they wore the thread. I asked a Sri Vaishnava scholar from Sri Rangam about this, and asked him if Nammalvar, a sudra, wore the thread, shouldn’t you extend eligibity to everyone else? He said the alwars were divine – beyond the realm of the human 🙂 There is also a Harijan group in Bangalore that recites veda mantrams- they too identify as Sri Vaishnavas, but consider themselves an independent body.

37. “No I’m not suggesting they were Brahmins, just that they wore the thread.”

    I’d imagine they probably didn’t wear the thread when they were alive-I think that this was a later addition as part of the alankaram when they became deified.

    But yeah, sadly, I’m not surprised at that response in a temple.

    @milli, hema and hmf:

    I know that for the Venkateshwara temple in Tirumala, the sattamurai is usually conducted after the offering of naivedyam and I think is the recitation of select pasurams from the Divyaprabhandam. I don’t know if thats the case in other divyadesam Vishnu temples in TN, or if that’s a feature of this temple being in Andhra, as most prayers are in Sanskrit at other times.

38. South Indian Sri Vaishnava culture is rife with casteist distinctions. There are even distinction between sanyasins! Non-Brahmana sanyasins are called ekangis. Every major Jeeyar I’m aware of is a Brahmana, including those who travel to the states, like Chinna Jeeyar. They all uphold the Vedic divide, viz. that Vedic mantrams are only available to Brahmin males; women and sudras must seek salvation through bhakti/prapatti. Ramanuja himself upheld the Vedic divide. Why anyone but Brahmanas would feel comfortable in such sampradeyas is beyond me. Contrast this with ISKCON – Prapupadha (who was Kayastha, not Brahmin) was far more open to outsiders and held that varna was based on guna and karma, not birth.

    ISKCON’s founder, Prabhupada, was not Sri Vaishnava but rather a Gaudiya Vaishnava from West Bengal. The Gaudiya Vaishnava sect, generally speaking, is not hung-up on caste, however, many Indians who are members of that sect, due to their local cultures and societal conditionings, do follow some caste distinctions in terms of arranging marraiges and such. Such cultural traits would not be found amongst the non-Indian members of the sect. Amongst non-Indian members of ISKCON (one of the many branches/sects of the larger Gaudiya Vaishnava religion) though you will find alot of gender discrimination, stemming from certain comments found in the books written by their founder/acharya.

39. “Amongst non-Indian members of ISKCON (one of the many branches/sects of the larger Gaudiya Vaishnava religion) though you will find alot of gender discrimination, stemming from certain comments found in the books written by their founder/acharya.”

    That’s interesting. I think they follow a lineage of Goswamis who had issues with women as disciples-there’s an interesting legend of the meeting between jiv goswami and mirabai.

    On the other hand, this past Janmasthami, at the Brooklyn HK temple, the person who was attending to the main deities and performing the aarti was an African American woman.

40. That’s interesting. I think they follow a lineage of Goswamis who had issues with women as disciples-there’s an interesting legend of the meeting between jiv goswami and mirabai. On the other hand, this past Janmasthami, at the Brooklyn HK temple, the person who was attending to the main deities and performing the aarti was an African American woman.

    No. I’ve read many of the works of the medieval goswamis and am yet to find any misongynist remarks.

    But there are quite a few such remarks found in the writings of ISKCON’s founder/acharya.

41. “No. I’ve read many of the works of the medieval goswamis and am yet to find any misongynist remarks.”

    It’s not a matter of misogynist remarks, per se, but it seems they didn’t accept females as “real” bhaktas. Whether or not the Mirabai story is entirely accurate, ISKCON don’t seem to deny it, but rather they try and argue that her method of achieving mukti was not the right way to go about it and that was Jiv Goswami’s issue with not wanting to meet her.

    Or so was explained to me after I mistakenly sang a mirabai bhajan at an ISCKON temple once.

42. It’s not a matter of misogynist remarks, per se, but it seems they didn’t accept females as “real” bhaktas. Whether or not the Mirabai story is entirely accurate, ISKCON don’t seem to deny it, but rather they try and argue that her method of achieving mukti was not the right way to go about it and that was Jiv Goswami’s issue with not wanting to meet her. Or so was explained to me after I mistakenly sang a mirabai bhajan at an ISCKON temple once.

    For some reason ISKCON has issues with Mirabai bhajans. Yes, her aspiration was to serve Krishna as a wife rather than a gopi, which is almost contrary to Gaudiya doctrine, yet her bhajans exemplify atma-nivedanam well.

    Jiva Goswami was a renunciate and they generally avoided intimate association with women, as women renunciates often avoid the same with men. That does not mean he was a sexist though.

43. ust a quick note: sattumurai is a component of the aradhanam. there are “short” and “long” versions of sattumurai, depending on the occasion/time constraints. performing sattumurai will include recitation of various parts of veda, divyaprabhandam, etc. so, a sattumurai could include recitation of the thiruppallandu. this is my basic understanding, but i could be totally wrong on this.

    Ok ladies and germs, that care anyway, here’s the full lowdown.

    Sattumurai comes at the tail end of an aradhanam type worship, it consists of three components, the last 2 verses of Goda Tiruppavai (Sittram Sirghalai, Vanga-kadal..) , Thirupallande (from Periyazhwar pasarums) and an Acarya centric pasarum, depending on Vadakalai or Tenkalai, you’d say one for Vendantadeshikar or Manavala mamuni. And that ladies and gents, is Sattamurai.

44. So what are the conclusions? Is it possible to live life happily in the US without paying attention to caste or is it necessary for our spirituality and keeping connections with our culture?

45. So what are the conclusions? Is it possible to live life happily in the US without paying attention to caste or is it necessary for our spirituality and keeping connections with our culture?

    For spirituality, it’s not neccessary. For culture, it may be.

    People who are born outside of India and who have no place in India’s caste system are still partaking of “Indian spirituality” almost as fully as Indians, some even more so, by taking mantra-diksha (initiation) into various Hindu sects. When they do so they are not assigned a caste or anything like that, but simply taken as “Hindus” from other countries/cultures — non-Indian Hindus. If caste were in-extricably tied to India’s religions then no non-Indians would ever be allowed entrance into these religions (various Hindu sects). Therefore my conclusion is that caste and Indian spirituality are exclusive of each other.

    However, local customs and cultures are another topic, and that is where caste comes in.

46. “Interestingly, the alwars -including the so-called Sudras like Nammalvar and Harijans like Tirrupan Alwar are depicted in temple reliefs wearing the sacred thread, which, as we know, is only available to dvija (in the South really Brahmin) males…” Nevertheless, tradition holds that they were in fact shudras.

    First off, the Tamil caste system does not directly tranlate into the Vedic caste system (i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra). Only the Tamil Brahmins fit neatly into those categories and they refer to all other Tamils who are not Dalits as Shudras. I am not saying this to imply that one caste system is better than the other, in my opinion they are both equally despicable, but only to state that they are not in fact the same. The rulers of Tamil Nadu were often vellalars and as such their descendants often bristled at British census takers who classified them as Sudras based on the many people from the same community who were engaged in agricultural labor. “Low Caste” Maravars & Thevars have had at various points in history their own kingdoms. Tamil castes are in many ways more like tribes than hierarchically arranged castes in N. India. So when you say that a Tamil Saivite saint was a Shudra, it doesn’t really say much as that pretty much describes all Tamils from the perspective of Brahmins…they may have actually come from wealthy/aristocratic backgrounds.

47. HMF, my sources say slokams & pasurams from both vedas & divyaprabandham are recited during sattumurai. (my “sources” being my parents and various sri vaishnava websites).

    from a ramanuja.org listserv archive re:significance of sattumurai:

    What Texts are covered in SaatthumuRai ?

    ---

    In a short version of AarAdhanam , aadhyanthams (the beginning and the end passages) of Vedam , selaected Divya Prabhandhams are recited . In elaborate aarAdhanams on special days , excerpts from the Vedams , Upanishads , dharma sAsthram , IthihAsams , PurANams , Sri AlavandhAr sthOthram , Sri BhAshyam , Sri rahasya traya sAram , Yathi-rAja sapthadhi , sapthadhi rathnamAlikA ,PaadhuhA sahasra slOkam ,PeriyAzhwAr, ANDAL , NammAzhwaar Paasurams, KaNNInuNN siRutthAmpu of Madhura Kavi AzhwAr et al are recited during the SaatthumuRai .

    PunarmanthrAsanam step and the SaatthumuRai there

    ---

    The sixth step of AarAdhanam , PunarmanthrAsanam , has the following substeps: PrArthanA , Argyam , Paadhyam , Aachamaneeyam , NeerAjanam , SAATTHUMURAI Vedam and Divya Prabhandham Recital while the Aaardhakar places flowers at the feet of the Lord )and concludes with TaambhUla samarpaNam .ParyankAsanam follows as the last step of AarAdhanam.

48. addendum: only the priests will recite the parts from the vedas; devotees will refrain from this during sattumurai at the temple (home is different). everyone will take part in recitation of the divyaprabhandam, though.

49. This is true, but not done in practice. only in pakka tamil households.

50. actually, that is how it’s done at all 4 temples we attend here in the US (in 3 diff. states). i’m sure it’s different in smaller local temple in india, and the the big temples here seem to be getting more and more orthodox with the passing of each full moon. that listserv mesg. was coincidentally written by a family friend who was a religious committee chair at a temple here. (btw — wouldn’t a pakka tamil household be more likely to ditch the vedas during sattumurai, esp. tengalai families?) now it is saturday night and i will go have a real life.