I think I found this after reading an email sent out on the ASATA listserv; it asked for participants for a survey on caste and Sikhism. Since I’m interested in both, I decided to take a quick look. The first notes wafted tentatively through my iBook’s wee speakers and I smiled: Van Halen. I knew exactly what kind of video this would be. We used to make ones just like it for JSA‘s Fall and Spring “State”, usually to open the conference. Well, it was either that or we’d blare Public Enemy‘s “Fight the Power“…
After watching it, I was moved, because I felt like so much of it was applicable to all of us, not just Sikhs. Someone Malayalee needs to make one of these, stat, I muttered…and then I realized that they didn’t. Maybe they should just watch this, I thought and that’s when I knew it belonged here, in a space where it would get the attention it rightly deserves.
Ravidasia // Khatri // Jatt // Tarkhan…The labels that divide us are endless. Caste, gender, class, and power tear apart our Qaum, our Gurdwaras, and our Pariwars. How do we overcome? How do we forge unity without silencing voices? [Jakara]
My closest friend in college was a Sikh girl from Fremont, who happened to be Tarkhan. My boyfriend from Freshman through Junior year was Jatt. So were all of his friends. They made fun of her when she wasn’t around and ignored her when she was. This baffled coconut-flavored me. “Why are you so mean to her?” I’d ask him, over and over. “She’s nice.”
“Because she’s…Tarkhan. They’re lower class. And so backwards– didn’t you say her parents tried to get her married when she was 17, that they didn’t even want to send her to college? Who the hell does that?”
“That’s not her fault, why are you taking it out on her?”
“Look, it’s a Sikh thing…it’s probably difficult to understand. Don’t you have a sorority thing to go to?”
::
I’m amazed at how often caste shows up on our comment threads, among second gen kids who should know better. Then I am humbled as I remember that I’m complicit in this too, when I tease my best friend about doing TamBrahm stuff or when I embroider stories from bygone UC Davis days with an extra adjective which probably isn’t necessary:
“Well a lot of students were from the Central Valley or Yuba City…so a good number of the desis I befriended were Jatt Sikh.”
It’s so insidious, the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?
you should tell her that of course shes superior to browner people, cause shes closer to europeans. that of course does mean shes far inferior to any red neck trailor trash hick redneck white slob.
Getting back to the original question/point of the thread, after reading almost 400 comments, it seems that some of us feel like our caste is just a part of our heritage, that it dictates certain traditions but in no way inspires condescension towards others…but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who thinks or behaves that way. In my experience (and I in no way insinuate that this is true of all billion of us), people who are hyper-aware of their caste/proud of it are like that because of some smug, deluded sense of superiority, not because they are delighted with the various cultural quirks which make each of us unique (and just like everyone else).
I agree that the “Maitri-model”– for lack of a better phrase right now– is ideal; know who you are, be proud of it and don’t assume you are better than anyone else…but how realistic is this? How many of us were really raised this way?
I think not Amitabh.
In fact if anything I’m under-reacting to these ridiculous ‘pride-in-their-so-called-noble-racial-tribal-caste- roots’ nutcases! No amount of mockery is too much for these people and their dippy looney-tune pomposity and ‘pride’. By the way, these people’s pride isnt of the quiet, unassuming kind, it’s always declarative, supremacist, and coated in prejudice towards others. It’s a farce. Someone should write a play or novel about these clowns, it would be really funny.
Fifty years from now we will (hopefully) be adding “national” and “religious” to the list above…
By the way, just to be clear, I meant religious and nationalistic people who fit the characterization below (of which there unfortunately are far too many)
Camille, please continue….
Maitri, I know that this is tangential to the discussion but this doesn’t make sense to me – Brahmins as refugees from caste. Could have happened. Just say so and I have no reason to contest it. In most cases, people came to the US in search of better economic opportunities. They might have found the lack of caste wonderful AFTER coming…
Sure. I’m just saying that one can never mention his/her caste and even actually forget about it and still keep up spiritual practice just as well.
No. Unlike color of skin, height and hair color, caste IS ignorable. Black, white and brown will remain long after the current implications of being black/white/brown is gone. The best we can do is to ensure that different race doesn’t imply different opportunity.
With caste, we can do better. And why not when it is hurtful to some others?
And why not when it is hurtful to some others?
Actually, caste, when practiced in a hierarchical way, that discriminates and isolates, ends up hurting everyone in India…so much potential of India is lost in this archaic form of discrimination.
Kurma, Brahmins were refugees of reverse casteism. My dad had really great grades and wanted to get into medical school but wasn’t able to join any of the good ones because a) a good portion of seats were reserved for those of other castes and b) he wasn’t about to pony up dough which he didn’t have (not all Brahmins are fabulously wealthy after having leeched off the fat of the land, as imagined by some).
I’m just saying that one can never mention his/her caste and even actually forget about it and still keep up spiritual practice just as well.
As I said at Ennis’s post, Brahmin, Shudra, etc. existed before pigeonholing via birthright, i.e. Brahminism was widely practised before someone came along and said, “Hey, by the way, we’ve got this new hierarchy thing now and you’re top banana.” Brahmin is not a relative construct; it’s not like slave-owner by which you have to have slaves and condone slavery before you can be a slave-owner. A Brahmin is someone who studied Brahmavidya and was thus spiritually enlightened and had nothing to do with overlordship, not until this unfortunate caste system came along – end of story.
Caste is ignorable; Brahmin is not a caste but a Hindu philosophical achievement first and then, later, lamentably relegated to caste status. This is why I ask you not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
This discussion is starting to sound like “Jihad is mentioned in the Quran and is a central philosophy to all Muslims. Doesn’t that make all Muslims jihadis?” without a sound understanding of what jihad meant in the first place, how it has been horribly misconstrued and misused by some within the religion and how most Muslims have to play apologist and pick up the pieces for their misrepresented religion.
There’s a huge difference between a swede being proud of his direct ancestors and these pathetic punjabi racists getting off on some imaginary, or at best very partial, descent from mythical “scythians” from central asia. These wackos then condemn themselves to an inferiority complex towards those, such as the pathans, who have a higher proportion of the genes that they are so proud of.
Thats true for every other region of the world as well. So what? Making a big deal out of it leads to nothing but evil. As happened in nazi germany; and in bangladesh in 1971 when punjabis slaughtered bengalis.
Amen to that, Red Snapper! Honestly, when people say this, I wonder if folks recognize that this is just another way of playing into ideas of white supremacy and a “white on top” racial hierarchy? PARTICULARLY when they start throwing in color (e.g. “Oh I’m much more like (fair-skinned) Aryans than (dark) south Indians.” It’s racist and stupid, through and through. Sorry, Amitabh, I don’t think it’s a pride thing. If it were, then people would embrace the fact that the majority of groups – regardless of clan/caste – in Punjab/Sind are mutts. We are! I think that diversity is worth embracing, personally, instead of clinging to what may or may not be one of many reliable geneaologies in the region.
I don’t mean to be completely insensitive, but I have no sympathy for statements like this, just as I have no sympathy for the reverse-racism argument. An individual experience where one feels disadvantaged because the seat to which s/he felt entitled has been taken away is not tantamount to the CENTURIES of oppression and degradation faced by marginalized and under-resourced communities. I understand that it is silly to make sweeping generalizations about “rich Brahmins” or to attribute some kind of blanket hatred to all Brahmins, but come on.
Exactly. Its amusing that even orthodox brahmins scramble desperately, out of sheer greed, to get the hell out of holy, albeit impoverished, India and go across the forbidden Kala Pani to the lands of the impure, albeit wealthy, mlechhas 🙂
Is the term “Brahmin” being used as a convenient euphemism for all “upper caste” Hindus? I find it hard to believe that Brahmins, at 5% of the population, could have inflicted all the harm they’re being accused of. Maybe we should all spread the blame around a little.
Prema, please. You cannot attribute the War of Independence to a mislaid belief in Aryan/Scythian descent among Punjabis. They are TOTALLY unrelated.
Despite strong self-control, MoorNam eventually succumbs to his internal primal and basal tempations and re-posts links to his articles
The myth of Brahminical Hegemony The caste non-system
falls back, sweating and panting
M. Nam
camille, this is an important point if you have to understand any side of the story. first, do you want revenge for centuries of oppression? second, who is oppressing whom—a realistic pic of india today reveals that the picture is murky. in some states (including UP, the most populous), many dalit leaders in fact point out that they are opposed to any alignment with OBC’s. because, in those states, some OBC’s corner benefits of reservation to the exclusion of dalits and other OBC’s all the while crying hoarse that brahmins are oppressing everyone. on the other hand, other OBCs are just as disadvantaged as dalits if not more so, therefore a blanket statement on OBC’s is ridiculous too.
the last part of the story—if you work all your life out, and then someone tells you that someone who performed worse gets a seat ahead of you, there is a legitimate desperation there—not “disadvantaged because the seat s/he felt entitled has been taken away” as you put it. opportunities are scarce in india, it is not as if there are hundreds of alternatives for you. it is not surprising that many burnt themselves to death in protest of the mandal commission recommendations that upped the percentage of reservations to >50% (about 70%?). not to say upper castes are blameless and uniformly oppressed—after all, in some places, they put down others in the most medieval way possible.
now, i don’t support their form of protest, nor do i think reservations should be done away with. most groups in india today have blood on their hands. are you actually for helping people, or for taking revenge? the point is you will take revenge with the logic of your statement above, but if the last half century is any indicator, you won’t really help many.
bytewords, firstly, reservations are not “revenge” for centuries of oppression. I’m also not saying that it is Brahmin-created oppression. I understand what you’re saying, I’m just disagreeing. If you are going to try to build a society where there is greater equality of opportunity, then the fact of the matter is that people who have historically (as a group, although not necessarily individually) had greater access for whatever reason are no longer going to have a monopoly on admissions or be the de facto group which receives preferential treatment in the admissions process. A similar, although imperfect analogy, would be cutting off alumni-preferences in Ivy League college admissions in the U.S. I’m sure it sucks for the grandchild of an Ivy League alum, but that’s what happens when you try to level the playing field. And further, I don’t think we should lament attempts at equalizing the playing field. If we belong to those groups that have historically been preferenced, then we need to understand what we are being asked “to give up.”
I hear this over and over again — oh but I worked hard, oh but I dedicated my life to X, as though other people have not worked hard. I understand that there the % of people, overall, in India who work incredibly hard and are not able to win a spot in the IIT or Uni of their choice is huge. That said, I think going after the reservation system or OBCs completely ignores 1) why the reservation system exists, and 2) that there are many other factors that are not related to the OBC-system that are limiting admission in institutes of higher education in India.
“I don’t mean to be completely insensitive, but I have no sympathy for statements like this, just as I have no sympathy for the reverse-racism argument. An individual experience where one feels disadvantaged because the seat to which s/he felt entitled has been taken away is not tantamount to the CENTURIES of oppression and degradation faced by marginalized and under-resourced communities. I understand that it is silly to make sweeping generalizations about “rich Brahmins” or to attribute some kind of blanket hatred to all Brahmins, but come on.”
Camille, I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the phenomenon of reverse racism in the US is even comparable to the reverse discrimination faced by Brahmins in India, past or present. It is far more aggressive and institutionalized in India (e.g. university admissions), not simply confined to the social realm. What white person in this country has to fear being turned away from a school or job on the basis of their ethnicity? This is a very real fear that every living person in my family has experienced. The story Maitri wrote about her father is in no way isolated! Reverse discrimination against Brahmins has happened on a community level. I agree that Brahmins have enjoyed a certain type of privilege — as someone said earlier, a social privilege that has supported Brahmins’ sense of confidence or even superiority in the world — but at various points in time, including now, I hardly see them as the most privileged group in India. (Nor am I saying that they are the least privileged by any means). By the way — and I know this may draw criticism — I’d also like to point out that Brahmins are not solely responsible for perpetuating oppressive practices. Perhaps it’s through brainwashing or Brahminical hegemony, but I know a fair amount of lower-caste families who are just as happy to obey caste-differentiated rules as Brahmins. Each time I meet people like this it blows my mind, and I know Brahmins who use this as evidence that the caste system is not evil. I am not at all condoning the existence of such rules or bigotry on the part of Brahmins, but I really don’t think the backlash that Brahmins have endured in India is anywhere near what white people experience in the US. Granted, it is far less than what non-Brahmins have endured at the hands of Brahmins, but it’s simply not the same as what happens here, perhaps due to sheer numbers. I’m sorry if I sound like a caste apologist, I’m certainly not, I just take issue with this one point.
milli, I feel you, and I didn’t post my response as a form of invective hatred against Brahmins. As I said before, I understand that a lot of the caste violence that happens is not a “Brahmins vs. All” situation, and the fallout is absolutely regrettable. At the end of the day, caste absolutely effects people’s lives, but it is too simplistic to boil things down to a single-issue behind every problem facing OBCs in India. I guess I’m just a little more cold-hearted. Maybe that’s the luxury of distance?
“Maybe that’s the luxury of distance?”
This is the question that’s been on my mind the whole time this thread has been alive. I really wonder what my family and friends in India would have to say about our comments.
“I’m just saying that one can never mention his/her caste and even actually forget about it and still keep up spiritual practice just as well.”
This thread has really started to confuse me. I’m not even sure I understand what caste means to different people anymore, or what it’s supposed to describe. When I say that I am a Vadagalai Iyengar, it means that I adhere to a certain spiritual philosophy, or sampradayam. It’s like saying I’m a Lutheran vs. a Presbyterian. Anyone is free to follow our sampradayam and I know people who are not Iyengars by birth who do so. They receive the same “benefits” from our jeeyar (guru) and are no less likely to receive moksha than someone born into an Iyengar family. I guess I’m just not sure how or why I would ignore my caste, when it is what describes, or even dictates, my spiritual practice.
no no—a similar analogy would be to say children of alumni cannot compete for at least 70% of seats in college admissions. it is very different from saying cut off alumni preferences. in your analogy you are leveling the playing field. in another, you are saying your father studied in this school, so you cannot.
but, i don’t mean to say reservations should not exist. that wasn’t my point. my point was that today’s reality is not as simple as “brahmins prevented others, now we are trying to let everyone in”—as many seem to assume.
i mean “a correct analogy is: your father studied in this school, so you cannot”.
Damn you children of Sakas, Kambojas, Tocharians, Scythians, Hepthalites et al. Me and my Dravidian bros had central sewage and indoor toilets up in the ole IVC. You guys come along with your chariots and flatulent horses and there goes the neighborhood. And your joy of open air pooping developed in the Eurasian steps ruined our immaculate well planned streets…not even your spawn in the IAS can figure it out. Not to mention how you people are after a night of soma binge drinking…
I was talking about the Bangladesh massacres of 1971 at the hands of the punjabi and pathan army of West Pakistan, not the War of Independence of 1857. There was definitely racism of the aryan/martial race variety involved in that conflict between west pakistanis and east pakistanis/bengalis. The bengalis were seen as short, dark, non-martial, inferior, contemptible. They still are seen that way by many pakistanis.
Of course the other castes treat those lower than themselves badly too. Thats the nature of such hierarchies. That does not exonerate the top dogs from the responsibility for creating and sanctioning the abomination.
Similarly, when mulattoes look down on pure africans or mestizos look down on pure native americans or lighter-skinned desis look down on darker skinned ones they are consciously or subconsciously following the racial/color hierarchy set up by dominant white europeans that has spread worldwide. These hierarchies then take on a life of their own and continue through sheer momentum. Before the european domination, people including those who looked white, used to be inordinately proud of mongol and turk ancestry even if partial and barely noticeable (or even if not at all apparent). For then it was these central asians who were the latest conquerors of the world and founders of numerous dynasties and empires: from China to India to Persia to Arabia to white Anatolia.
Sahej (#321):
Thanks for posting that song. I’d heard OF Kiran Ahluwalia and knew a bit about her in terms of her love of Urdu ghazals and Punjabi folk, but never actually heard her voice before. Koka is a great song, I’d heard two other recorded versions of it in the past, one by Shin of DCS fame, the other by Sarvjeet Kaur (who also did a fabulous, but more ‘somber’ rendition of it). Kiran’s voice is nice, her pronunciation is amazing for someone who grew up in the West (Shin sounded too British when he sang it), and she’s good-looking too. Nice.
If you want to hear Shin’s version, go to this page, click on DCS, and then click on Koka.
Kiran should sing ‘Mere Lus Lus Karde Ang’.
Seeker #342,
The best way to answer is to say that you are a homo sapiens (higher caste than homo erectus).
Lol!
milli, that’s why Vadagalai Iyengar is not a caste (it’s right in the name, which I don’t need to explain). Sigh! did we forget to define ‘caste’? If you wish to expand it to groups that are not strictly birth-based, none of what I said applies.
No person but yourself can give you the “why”. As for the how, not even one of the Vadagalai people in my immediate circle of friends (all here in the US) feel that their practice is dictated by their caste.
I’m with ANNA on this.
Prema, #376 –
I would argue that no system of discrimination can survive without robust participation by the middle majority who carry the greatest responsibility for it.
KOKA IS AN UNMITIGATED DISASTER – such unrelieved mediocrity!
“not even one of the Vadagalai people in my immediate circle of friends (all here in the US) feel that their practice is dictated by their caste.”
yeah, i wanted to amend this earlier. i don’t feel that way to the extent that my parents’ generation seem to — they rigidly adhere to vadagalai doctrine and rituals. but here’s a question: do your vadagalai friends wear their namam in a particular style (if they wear one at all at temple functions)? if yes, that’s a perfect example of how their practice is dictated by their caste. in fact, the namam is often referred to as a “caste mark” in translation. no vadagalai person is going to walk around with a tengalai namam or god forbid (pun intended) vibhuti. how many times do they prostrate? that too is determined by caste. i am really not the most religious or traditional person out there, but there are numerous small things that are most certainly dictated by caste, should one choose to follow these rules. a “good” iyengar is usually all about having their practice dictated to them by their jeeyar. there’s a huge “we do this”/”they do that” mentality that couldn’t exist if people didn’t let their spiritual practice be dictated by what caste they are in. if a person wasn’t interested in following a certain path that was accompanied by specific rules and philosophies then sure, no need to hold on to caste for spiritual purposes. but anyone i know who specifically identifies as vadagalai is definitely following an organized belief system.
speaking of which, i don’t see how you can say that vadagalai iyengar — or at the very least iyengar — is not a caste. this conversation has not revolved strictly around the 4 traditional varnas + dalits; if it had, i suppose you have a point. being a vadagalai iyengar is birth based, at least nominally. you can follow vadagalai sampradayam but that’s all it could be; you still wouldn’t “be” vadagalai and enjoy the same social acceptance amongst born-as vadagalais (the narrow-minded ones, that is). perhaps this is less so the case with tengalai people, since there was a history of conversion and acceptance amongst them. iyengars and iyers have scuffled over supremacy just as vadagalai and tengalai vie for top dog spot amongst iyengars. all these groups together perpretrate various offences against supposedly lower caste people, some of which are pretty specific to the practices of each group. and come to think of it, if vadagalai iyengar isn’t a caste, you got some ‘splainin to do to many a matrimonial site. maybe i’m missing something and if so, i’m not sure i feel too bad about being ignorant about these divisions and all the related vocabulary. i have no investment in vadagali iyengar being recognized as a caste or not, but based on the comments in this thread and your own descriptions, it certainly seems to be.
Now I’ve seen it all! I believe that this is the farthest from Triplicane’s mada streets and The Hindu’s matrimonial columns that there has been such an extensive discussion of Vadagalai!
if 3 out of 385 comments counts as extensive, then yes. and rahul, this is nothing. you should see what a dinner party is like in my parents’ circuit.
The question still remains: Are you then-maada or vada-maada relative to the Mississippi? Pick wrong and I won’t share my aviyal and mor kuzhambu with you.
rahul: that’s a trick question if i ever saw one! the answer is neither, obviously.
well enough with the threadjacking and off to bed, perhaps never to return to this exhausting post!
Milli, I’ve really appreciated your comments and have learned a lot. The whole discussion has been fascinating.
Come on people, ten more comments to 400!
Prema #362
I detect a very strong anti-brahmin bias in your writings over the past few weeks. As someone else pointed out to you earlier, any valid points you might be making are in danger of getting lost in your often irrational and unsubstantiated invective. W/ regards to your comment above, please see other comments here that state that brahminism is not a monolithic entity, and all brahmins are not the same. Let me add that Hinduism provides quite some latitude to its believers in interpreting stuff so for a lot of believers going overseas does not necessarily make them impure. Also, might I add that you, nor anyone else, can speak of EVERY brahmin that ever has gone overseas out as having done so out of ‘sheer greed’!!
Hema #363
Exactly!!
Bytewords #366, #372
Agree completely. The analogies offered about alumni etc. are flat wrong. Camille, the problem with reservation is that its set up to help historically oppressed groups AT THE COST OF oppressing other groups very directly. If reserving seats is appropriate for past wrongs, then what do you think should be appropriate for african-americans to seek from the US govt? Given the slavery that existed, it seems to me that any reparation would be insufficient. So where do you go from there? At the end of the day, you have to implement a solution for today, on today’s condition.
Prema #376
I think we all need to take responsibility for our actions. That includes treating someone badly what whatever reason. You can’t simply pass the buck to someone else for ‘creating and sanctioning the abomination’. Creators have their perpetrations to answer to, participants have theirs.
Where I disagree with bytewords is about implementing reservation. Reservation is a cheap cop-out, a populist measure that does nothing to improve society, only the lot of a few individuals. If anything, it has only deepened the divide amongst India’s youth. What should be offered is extensive state support to seek promising motivated candidates, prepare them for whatever field so they may get through the gate facing the same competition as everyone else.
If any demographic sweep needs to be conducted to identify groups/individuals that qualify for help, it should be on economic basis. Situation of the poorest is very similar across caste/religion lines. This similarity exists for each prosperity level. The people I talked about earlier – son of SC/ST/OBC DSP for example – was in every way except his entrance exam scores, similar to others from similar economic backgrounds. He drove the same vehicles, wore the same clothes, behaved similarly etc. to other non SC/ST/OBCs with similar financial means. He had the same means the rest of the regular students had, and there was no reason for him to qualify for any reservation.
Below is an email I received from one of the aforementioned friends. He says that family practices are being confused with “caste”. Point 7 below mentions not only that one can forget about caste, but is advised to.
“
1) Vadagalai practises are no more caste based than Tamil or Punjabi practises are. Just because South Indians make sambar and North Indians make roti, it doesn’t mean that rotis are caste based. That is just a cultural aspect.
2) Caste by birth doesn’t allow for (open) conversion. You can easily and openly convert to and fro from either Vadagalai or Tengalai today.
3) Anyone can become a Vadagalai or Tengalai : Dalits, Shudras, Kshatriyas, Muslims etc. Your caste is an additional concept. It is not that ashrams don’t follow caste rules but being a V. or T. has nothing to do with it. Traditionally, V. ashrams are a bit more strict about following caste rules.
4) Tengalai != Lower caste. All Tengalai Acharyas are currently Brahmanas. There is a clear history of 2 main Acharyas of a current Vadagalai Ashram with a great past of having been Tengalais. Most T.s to a person feel insulted at this insinuation. They think that it was propagated by V.s 🙂
5) Namam is not a caste mark. It is a Vaishnava mark and there is clear textual evidence in even the most casteist of texts for this. There are some weird arguments based on texts about how long the “foot” of the namam should be and T’s and V’s differ on that.
6) One can argue that Iyengar has come to mean a Brahminical subsect. The origin of the term is sometimes debated but most agree that it comes from “5 angas” i.e the 5 sacraments that people who take up initiation undergo. This is open to all castes. Most of these angas can be undergone even by animals (and ashram animals do). Indeed, you will see ashrams cows, pots and pans wearing the namam.
7) Out of the 12 Azhwars, there were Shudras, Dalits, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, a woman and Brahmans. Both traditions claim them as their own. The Brahmin amongst them sing about forgetting about the caste one is born in and identifying only as a Bhagavata (see point 8) below). Our most important Azhwar –Nammazhwar (one who is unqualifiedly meant when the mere term Azhwar is used), was a Dalit (or Shudra according to some). Both traditions fight to claim them, and him in particular. Not one person would like to be called an Iyengar if that group doesn’t include Nammazhwar.
8) Sri Vaishnavas are primarily Bhagavatas/Sattvatas/Pancaratrins. These are the terms that Ramanuja and Desika use for self-identification. There are again proofs in almost every single important text (Mahabharata, other Agamas, Brahma Sutras, Bhagavata and other Puranas) of the historicity and devout nature of this group. Sankaracharya pays rich tributes to them even while denying part of their philosophy. At the same time, almost every single of these (openly casteist) old texts recognizes the large number of lower caste people within them. There is also an inscription dating 110 B.C (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliodorus_pillar) or so of a Greek historian converting to the doctrine. I would like to see this replicated for any caste in any old text.
In fact, Desika had to defend against the notion that inclusion of such a large number of non-Brahmana followers meant that the system of non-Vedic. (Incidentally, Desika was a defender of following caste rules even after one became a Vaishnava. This distinction made by a defender also shows that these have always been different terms. One is not a Vaishnava by birth).
9) My guess is that Sri Vaishnava people started feeling defensive about the Smarta-Brahmin attack on them for including “lower” caste people as main saints and Tamil as a language of revelation. (there is clear textual and inscriptional evidence for this). I think they started using some self identifying terms to distinguish themselves as primarily Brahmanas some time after 1600s (don’t know when). It is very well possible that a term which was general got changed into something meaning more specialized. Nonetheless, in India, there are endogamic Brahmin Christian groups, Brahmin Muslim groups and even Brahmin Lingayat groups! None of these affect what a Christian, Muslim or Lingayat is supposed to mean.
All right. I have bored you enough. There are more things which show how inclusive the system is in conception. I will admit that people have strayed from the path in recent times but I think that it was kind of inevitable (even though unforgivable) given the milieu.”
My guess is that Sri Vaishnava people started feeling defensive about the Smarta-Brahmin attack on them for including “lower” caste people as main saints and Tamil as a language of revelation
Interesting, but I’m a little doubtful as to this statement (not doubting you or your source, just wondering). The Shaivite/Smarta Brahmins were frequently followers of the Aruvatthimoovar or the Nayanmaars, many of whom were not Brahmin themselves, and all of the Nayanmaars wrote in Tamil.
I concede that the Thevaram, and the works of Thirugnana Sambandar and Manikkavaachagar are not as well known as the Divyaprabandham, but they did contribute to the extensive use of Tamil (as opposed) to Sanskrit, and I have not read any record of Smarta-Brahmin opposition to this.
There have been several comments about people from Northern India/Paksitan with fair skin taking false pride in having Sychthian/Persian/Turk/Arab/Central Asian ancestry. Unless I’m mistaken would that mean these people have ancestry that is very swarthy. So is that what they are proud of???
5 more to go.
They’re proud of being “less Indian” than the rest of us.
do these same people have an inferiority complex vis a vis europeans?
If I have to, I’ll bring this baby to 400 myself (but SM Intern could check mate me by shutting this thread down first…hmmm).
Yes!!!
As expected, this post was waiting for a brahmin to make comment #400 at the auspicious time.