I think I found this after reading an email sent out on the ASATA listserv; it asked for participants for a survey on caste and Sikhism. Since I’m interested in both, I decided to take a quick look. The first notes wafted tentatively through my iBook’s wee speakers and I smiled: Van Halen. I knew exactly what kind of video this would be. We used to make ones just like it for JSA‘s Fall and Spring “State”, usually to open the conference. Well, it was either that or we’d blare Public Enemy‘s “Fight the Power“…
After watching it, I was moved, because I felt like so much of it was applicable to all of us, not just Sikhs. Someone Malayalee needs to make one of these, stat, I muttered…and then I realized that they didn’t. Maybe they should just watch this, I thought and that’s when I knew it belonged here, in a space where it would get the attention it rightly deserves.
Ravidasia // Khatri // Jatt // Tarkhan…The labels that divide us are endless. Caste, gender, class, and power tear apart our Qaum, our Gurdwaras, and our Pariwars. How do we overcome? How do we forge unity without silencing voices? [Jakara]
My closest friend in college was a Sikh girl from Fremont, who happened to be Tarkhan. My boyfriend from Freshman through Junior year was Jatt. So were all of his friends. They made fun of her when she wasn’t around and ignored her when she was. This baffled coconut-flavored me. “Why are you so mean to her?” I’d ask him, over and over. “She’s nice.”
“Because she’s…Tarkhan. They’re lower class. And so backwards– didn’t you say her parents tried to get her married when she was 17, that they didn’t even want to send her to college? Who the hell does that?”
“That’s not her fault, why are you taking it out on her?”
“Look, it’s a Sikh thing…it’s probably difficult to understand. Don’t you have a sorority thing to go to?”
::
I’m amazed at how often caste shows up on our comment threads, among second gen kids who should know better. Then I am humbled as I remember that I’m complicit in this too, when I tease my best friend about doing TamBrahm stuff or when I embroider stories from bygone UC Davis days with an extra adjective which probably isn’t necessary:
“Well a lot of students were from the Central Valley or Yuba City…so a good number of the desis I befriended were Jatt Sikh.”
It’s so insidious, the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?
There are huge differences between India’s caste system and America’s classism . To the extent that America’s ‘classism’ leads to the inter-generational persistence of socio-economic inequality, and is furthermore based on a resistance to inter-gamy based on a color or race consciousness, there are very important similarities.
Thanks Chachaji, I understand what you are getting at. But I think that to conflate caste and class too much is dangerous because it might offer the wrong solutions to India’s caste discrimination problem.
America’s ideals are more modern (identity coming from state/citizenship) and I think that as you so articulately state, the extent that America’s ‘classism’ leads to the inter-generational persistence of socio-economic inequality, and is furthermore based on a resistance to inter-gamy based on a color or race consciousness, i> – this extent that you mention, I think it is hindered by America’s modernism.
I also think that even if you are not born a Carnegie, your access to resources and wealth and a happy life for that matter, and your participation in American life, is not very hindered. Whereas from my readings of caste in different parts of India, caste can play a huge role in your participation within India as a citizen.
What do you think Chachaji,(I also find your comments very thoughtful) of the differences between caste and class and race in America, if you think there are differences at all?
It’s not just culture! It’s money, education, financial knowledge, job skills…
I think this is less and less true all the time, esp. in India. From my (albeit limited and completely anecdotal) experiences, most Indians have approximately the same access to education, and to any life style that is directly related to a level of education. In fact, government in India appears to have to great lengths to ensure that those who traditionally lacked access to better education and better jobs now have access. This is particularly true in southern India, IMO.
Certainly, I have seen very little, if any, evidence that 2nd gen’ers in the US have limited opportunities because of the caste identifications of their families.
Nevertheless, I’m sure you’re right that inter-generational benefits/disadvantages of the caste system can still be felt throughout society, and most definitely in India.
ut the caste system in India/South Asia has also evolved during 1940-2007 – qualitatively same, quantitatively different, so some issues from then are not relevant today, other new ones have arisen etc.
unless the evolution has been parallel there are problems with a tight analogy (which some here are making). if you want analogies, compare the % of black men who marry white women to dalit men in brownland who marry brahmin women (you need to normalize for the frequency of the various groups within the population and assume random mating as a null hyp.).
My parents married intercaste and never taught me much about either caste… I have, however, witnessed them making disparaging remarks (though most of the time in good humor) about Brahmins, as both were a step below Brahmins caste-wise but a step above financially-wise (ha, nouveau riche). I always thought it was sad how a lot of second-gen Indians identified so much by their caste and even made friends because of it; I didn’t even know the name of either of my parents’ castes until I was in high school. I live in an area with a lot of Brahmins and there are things like Brahmin meetups, pujas, etc. where most of the people will be Brahmin and even look down on other castes (though subtly). Of course, I don’t think all Brahmins are like that ;] two of my best friends are Brahmin and I doubt they’ve ever even thought of discriminating because of caste in their life.
At the same time, I don’t despise caste – just the caste system, if that makes any sense… like PS said, “I love celebrating people cultural influences and I often don’t think caste has to be evil…the way it is practiced is evil…” Caste could have been as harmless as regional traditions or state pride, but the way it manifested itself in the 19th century… bah.
Why do we have a problem with caste? If it is ok to be proud of one’s religion then why the negative connotations with caste? Yes, i know all about the discriminatuion issue and totally oppose the caste bias. But caste can be part of a person’s identity. I respect my community for what it is but at the same time do not condone discrimination in the name of caste.
Dont we have castes in LA depending on the kind of car we drive? 🙂 or on this blog with the ABCD and FOB castes? Who is the twice born here?
“Lexus and the Olive tree” shows that roots and identity matter to people even in today’s Globalized world http://www.amazon.ca/Lexus-Olive-Tree-Understanding-Globalization/dp/0385499345/ref=sr_1_1/702-7827275-4755216?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179176217&sr=1-1
But before you say that you are independent enough to think that you are not going to be bogged down by group think you might find David Brook’s “Bobos in Paradise” interesting http://www.amazon.ca/Bobos-Paradise-Upper-Class-There/dp/0684853787/ref=sr_1_1/702-7827275-4755216?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179176518&sr=1-1
anyway the caste dynamic wont go away in India. Look at Mayawati kicking some OBC ass with a new caste-combo…Brahmin/Dalit. She just sucked the air out of the BJP and Samajwadi. http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/may/14rajeev.htm
Institutions in India are not mature enough to support meritocracy. Till then it will be the dynamics of the group. And as Mayawati has so brilliantly demonstrated, it is a fluid dynamic.
Like how do i seek common ground with a fellow desi. In order of importance…1>which part of the country 2> which language/state 3> what caste? 4> what Religion? Please note that generally people are discreet enough not to ask 3&4 but make some educated guesses. Does it matter? Not reallly. But for someone curious it might. And we FOBs generally care only for the National cricket team, so we dont get worked up about how Baroda did against Bombay in the Ranjis.
“A lot of American-born desis I try to engage with about casteism seem to feel far-removed from it, or have not given it much thought, because (I think)–being mostly from Brahmin or bania families–they fail to see how their own lives and opportunities in the U.S. have been privileged, in one way or another, by being from upwardly mobile communities in the homeland.”
Most of my cousins had an extraordinarily difficult time getting into both high school and college because of the fact that they were Brahmin. My own parents coughed up the bribes to get them a seat. None of my relatives in India could be considered upwardly mobile in an economic sense. Socially or religiously privileged, absolutely, but that does not necessarily translate into modern socioeconomic success.
I also think there is an incorrect perception (generally, and specifically on this thread) that “upper caste” in India approximates wealth in India. There are millions of poor upper caste folks in India too…all their privilege derives from their social status, but they don’t always get their three squares either.
You forget that endogamy was ‘married to’ patriarchy (forgive the pun). This resulted in sex-selective hypergamy – for females only. Females married up, in other words. So that was one way castes changed in a single generation. But more importantly, castes moved up/down the hierarchy whenever they achieved a level of socio-economic power and bought off the local priests. In course of time the lowest caste could become ‘Brahmins’, and sometimes that did happen in an individual’s lifetime. I would actually argue that, since caste in India is not as strongly based on outward phenotype (‘race’), it leads to a more fluid identity than the US version based directly on ‘race’.
I would actually argue that, since caste in India is not as strongly based on outward phenotype (‘race’), it leads to a more fluid identity than the US version based directly on ‘race’.
this is an interesting argument! but, using this logic one might also hold that the purity taboos and the extreme pollution barriers had to be so strong in part because an untouchable was always identifiable by their physique (yes, i know there are average differences, but the overlap is great enough).
Kush Tandon,
I guess the term Vania instead of Jain is better suited. The example I am providing is a Hindu Vania but also follows aspects of Jainism.
Point is, I grew up around Brahmins (or so called Brahmins), who make it a necessary to point out that they are Brahmins. So I ask what does it mean or matter in this day and age?
Wasn’t the caste system introduced by invading Indo-European tribes thousands of years ago, to cement their privileges over conquered indigenous Indians?
As for the idea that “we are Brahmins, we are closest to god”, I have only this to say: Every person is closest to his/her own sphincter.
Yes. My understanding is that caste is “family lineage” or geneological lineage. People who trace their family trees are into that sort of thing — and people are always anxious to know if they have any “royal” ancestry. Ever notice how pan-africanists here in USA tend to trace their roots back to Queen this or Cheif that of such and such tribe in Ghana, never a “waste manager” or peasant or whatever? It’s always some royalty or tribe leader or something.
In one sense Indians could be considered fortunate that they are so easily able to trace their “roots” or lineage back so far, so easily. Over here family trees can take years of research and hard labour to figure out one’s “roots”, ethnic ties or whatever.
The problem with caste is the discrimination of it, not neccessarily the thing itself. I don’t think it’s wrong to be proud of one’s family heritage/culture/lineage — whatever it may be — “high”, “low” or whatever. It’s when people are discriminated against or hated by others for it where the wrongness comes in.
It seems to be a favorite pastime of humans to try and trace their roots, to find out where they “originated”, etc.
Indian people seem to have an automatic access to such info, just by being born into a caste lineage.
Namaskar bhaiyyon aur behenon, I am curious how this discussion would go if we introduced the pigment levels into the caste equation.
Assuming everything else to be ‘equal’, Would you rather marry a desi with lighter skin, BUT of lower caste than yourself? OR Would you rather marry a darker desi who is of the same caste as yourself?
I hope it is not too much to ask for honesty in your responses 🙂
I have to leave after this, but don’t you mean they had to be so strong precisely because the ‘untouchable’ could not be identified purely by their physiognomy ? If they could, a more lax system of sanctions would also have worked to keep the gene pools apart…
Am I mistaken to think the “untouchability” issue sprang from dietary habits? That has always been my impression when reading Indian religious and historical books. People who ate certain animals were considered to be “contaminated” by the lacto-vegetarian and fish eating communities.
I am amused that you V2.0’s are even cognizant of castes and not above referring to them in polite company. It had to have come from us first geners, for which my apologies.
In a country where racism is moot, casteism (the Indian English word for this evil) works just as well.
130 sigh “ethnicity is a marker of certain shared experiences, but I am saying that even if there is a correlation between certain ethnicities and certain experiences, one could directly go to those experiences rather than mediate them through ethnicity.”
You are so right. As a professional dabbler, I once took it upon myself to attend a kayastha party in Chicago. In spite of my tremendous kayastha pride, which is laced with an equal amount of knowledge of this particular caste’s origins and traditions, I found very little in common with all these multi-cultural people whose only common bond was the caste. To me it was just a desi party that could have been infinitely better without some of the desis present. Some time later I happened to manage the activities of Bihar Cultural Association for a few years and thoroughly enjoyed the shared experiences of four hundred plus families, who were of different castes and different religions. But our cultural and geographical commonality, not ethnicity in the strictest sense, was the uniting factor. We had gone to the same schools back home, hung out at the same places, enjoyed the same cuisine, shared the same jokes and had even married each other’s second or third cousins.
Sigh, I noticed in a later comment you suggested friendship as a bridge for shared experiences. Of course! However, you can’t stretch the argument too far away from provincialism of some kind without turning the shared experiences into something as contrived as an International Students Association meet. I don’t like casteism, but I’ll gladly settle for other forms of ethnicity – geographical, cultural, alumni, professional, hobby, even racial (as in desi). The choice is endless.
[I have seen very little, if any, evidence that 2nd gen’ers in the US have limited opportunities because of the caste identifications of their families.]
— I was trying to shift the discussion away from the ‘caste identification or label’ issue to the more basic human challenges that are part of day-to-day life: when you take a family that has been doing manual labor for hundreds of years and finally a few young people from that family are plucked out and succeed educationally and financially, it rarely uplifts the entire community. Many from lower caste and Dalit communities who have ‘left the rest behind’ so to speak understand this very, very well, and it can be psychologically painful to break away like that. Also, I would ask that you do not underestimate the value of ‘social privilege’ even when it is unaccompanied by wealth; much of the battle is about gaining social legitimacy and fostering a sense of self-confidence rather than self-loathing/stigma based on perceived inferiority.
(I think that’s sort of what PS was getting at when he/she said that, in India, it’s almost as though your citizenship is derived from caste rather than the nation state.)
Of course, there are poor Brahmins and wealthy Dalits. I doubt that anyone would disagree with that. But, I can guarantee that if you visit a High Court or university in any major Indian city, you will see Brahmin and upper-caste names everywhere you look. In fact, you will be hard-pressed to find the names of lower caste or Dalit lawyers, scholars, professionals, etc.; again, while they exist, they are a tiny minority in the upper-most strata of educated Indians. That was my first-hand experience while living in India for a few months and moving amongst the ‘professional classes’ (for academic work, unrelated to my family life completely).
Don’t forget that Brahmins are less than 10% of India’s population as a whole. This problem must also be understood in terms of numbers and majority/minority.
[The problem with caste is the discrimination of it, not neccessarily the thing itself.]
— exactly, PS!
Not really. Americans also have a penchant for tracing their family trees — that means lineage, and caste is lineage.
“invading Indo-European tribes thousands of years ago, to cement their privileges over conquered indigenous Indians?”
My remark is slightly off-topic. Words like
invading',conquered’ and privileges are appropriate only if it can be proved that there was actually a war. But the diggings at Mohenjadaro, Harappa etc. don’t seem to have brought up weapons or dead bodies of soldiers who had died violent deaths etc. For this reason, some people substitute the wordmigration' forinvasion’, e.g., the Aryan Invasion Theory becomes the Aryan Migration Theory.On a different note, I would urge the second-generation to do a Google search of the sociologist M.N. Srinivas and read at least a couple of paragarphs of his views. They provide food for thought.
Great post, Anna. I never knew what my caste was growing up, my grandfathers (on both sides) had rejected their caste names as part of the Singh Sabha reform movement.
I’ve had older Sikhs in the USA ask me what my last name was, and when I answered “Singh” (or “Mutinywale”), they got frustrated, and proceeded to ask me a series of other questions designed to reveal what my caste was. I actually do know, I found out as a matter of historical curiosity, but I didn’t find out until I was … in my late teens, and I don’t think we’ve mentioned at home it since. I’ve also gotten this same set of questions from Sikh Aunties asking me about my “family” as a way of trying to figure out if it’s worth setting up somebody’s daughter with me. Sorry, homie don’t play that.
My favorite story about this though happened many years ago, in India. I was staying at my aunt’s flat in Delhi when one of my younger cousins (now married but then just a wee thing) asked me what my name was, and then asked me what my caste name was, patiently explaining what hers was. When I told her that Sikhs didn’t have castes she just looked at me incredulously, like I was from Mars. Sadly, in terms of social practice, she was right and I was wrong. Then again, as her “older brother” I made a practice of exasperating her constantly, and she probably thought I was up to one of my ABCD tricks.
“Also, I would ask that you do not underestimate the value of ‘social privilege’ even when it is unaccompanied by wealth; much of the battle is about gaining social legitimacy and fostering a sense of self-confidence rather than self-loathing/stigma based on perceived inferiority.”
welcome to NY-istan I’m not sure you were addressing me specifically, but I do appreciate your point here. It’s one I’ll consider very seriously. For obvious reasons, I have only been exposed to the self-loathing that accompanies being Brahmin (Indian White Man’s Burden?? ugh).
um, my last comment was not intended to be intentionally dense or ignorant. what i meant to say was that i’ve only been directly exposed to Brahmin self-loathing; I am of course aware of the repercussions of caste discrimination on lower and “unscheduled” castes.
“Not really. Americans also have a penchant for tracing their family trees — that means lineage, and caste is lineage.”
A Scottish professor I once knew spoke of clans, which sounded quite like the Indian castes but did not seem to have such a rigid hierarchy.
My understanding is that the modern day brahmins are all descendents of the sapta rishis of yore, the modern day ksyatriyas the descendents of ancient royalty and warriors, the modern day vaisyas the descendents of ancient merchants and farmers, the modern day shudras the descendents of ancient artisans and laborers (some of the most creative people in Indian history).
Was your grandma a strict vegetarian? I know many very strict vegetarians in India who will never eat outside their own home (unlesss they are 100% certain the friend/family member they are in the home of is also as strict as them – and even then there are some who never eat outside of their own home at all).
It is often thought by brahmin vegetarians that other castes eat non-veg – eggs or whatever.
Back when I was just a little Poonjabi, my mother and I rode the Amtrak for our very first time to visit old friends living in Southern California. On the trip back home, we spotted the conductor of the train walking about our car, exchanging pleasantries and politely chatting with the passengers. I felt my excitement grow as he approached our table and I couldn’t wait to share with the nice and authoritative man just how much fun we were having on our very first train ride, how I could’t wait to take a train again, and so forth. He must have seen us smiling at him, because in no time he was smiling at us and strolled up to our table.
“Good afternoon folks, how are you?”
“Good, good, how are you?” my mother replied.
“Fine thanks.” Just as I opened my mouth to start my juvenile dialogue on the inherent coolness of the modern train, I noticed him staring intently at my mother and beginning to move closer to her. I closed my mouth. My mother, reserved and dignified as she was, always seemed to attract attention herself.
“Say, where’re you from?”
My mom forced a wider grin, as she knew what direction this conversation was heading. “We’re Indian,” she said with a pause, and began to fiddle with her wedding ring.
“Ohhhhh,” the conductor said, his eyes lighting up. “I worked with some Indians years back. Say, are you jatt or are you majbi?”
Her mouth fell agape and she let out a stifled laugh. The blood drained from my mother’s face and the ensuing silence became uncomfortable.
“We’re…uh…jatt.”
“Oh, okay. Good.”
Silence.
“My friends said those are the two main types of Indians.”
Silence again.
“Well, you folks enjoy the rest of your trip. Goodbye.”
(All) “Goodbye.”
It took all I had at the time to muster to courage to break the ice, but after 5 minutes I asked, “Mamma, why did he ask if we were servants?”
Even though I was never brought up with the concept of caste, or even knew I “had” one in the sense that I could identify with one if I chose to until I was in college, my grandmother would sometimes use the word “majbi” as a slur against me if I was misbehaving or engaging in behavior unbecoming of a 6 year old, like playing in the mud or picking my nose, and my mother would explain to me that she was lightheartedly referring to me as a servant, or lower “class” person. My mom later dismissed the conductor as confused and we never talked about it again, but I would never forget her consternation and how it was brought upon by that most unexpected question.
I have no idea who our dashing conductor had been fraternizing back in train school, but they obviously had an interesting sense of humor.
I should add, neither my family or I identify as “jatt” or “majbi.” My mom didn’t know how to even begin to answer his question and chose to identify with the first option, for the sake of expediting an already painful conversation.
That’s such an interesting story.
I just find it so rude what the conductor did – take for example if he visited India, and someone went right up to him, with preconceived notions of class or religion in the US, and asked “are your parents blue-collar or professionals?”
“professionals”
“good”
“are you Protestant or Catholic?”
“Catholic”
“good”
What the hell, – so rude and ignorant.
Thanks for writing about caste in the US, Anna. Loved the sorority reference too. I think clinging to caste is understandable among the lower socio-economic class because it serves as their social security system. That’s why blanket statements against caste tend to sound so elitist and clueless and don’t help resolve anything.
One of the Attendings at the hospital I work at asked me out of the blue about my caste. His pastor has just returned from India and given a talk in his church on the atrocities pervaded on the dalits by the brahmins and other upper castes. I asked him to guess my caste, since his knowledge about the caste system was so fresh, and surprisingly he correctly pointed out that I must be a brahmin. I did not ask him how he deduced that. But, yes , I was really surprised by the question.
i must say i’m surprised at the level of caste-conciousness among the abcds. i grew up in the uk and usa and never knew my caste as a child. when i got around to asking i was told we belong to an offshoot of hinduism that doesn’t believe in caste. i didn’t see any caste identification in any of my indian friends either. it just seemed like such a strange and far away concept as a kid, though really it’s not too different from class, race or ethnicity.
182 Manju “i must say i’m surprised at the level of caste-conciousness among the abcds.”
I am, too. But then the blogging crowd is presumably a little more introspective and inquiring – kind of a separate caste from the rest of the ABD’s.
i once interviewed a dude who told me his caste during the interview (brahmin, telegu speaking i think). i hired him. he was well qualified and did a great job. he had a hard time relating to women in the workplace though. one time his wife found a coupon to a strip bar in his suitcase and he told her he clipped it for me. she called me to complain.
what a character. once wore chupples to work. i took him to brooks brothers and advised him to lose the stach. (mou, not porn). those were the days.
ahh, the universal vice of repressed prudes of every culture…
floridian (#166), I have been really surprised at the universality of certain experiences even among people of different countries (though the cultural articulation of such experiences differ).
But, I can guarantee that if you visit a High Court or university in any major Indian city, you will see Brahmin and upper-caste names everywhere you look
Interesting. I’m not doubting your veracity, but at least in the south, this seems not to be the case, particularly in places like the High Court.
Of course, in the south, people don’t use caste identifiers in their names, so it’s not really possible to tell just from a name.
. Some of them even converted to and, as far as I’m aware, therefore discarded their Brahminical status. Anyone know for sure?
I took the Jakara survey and urge everyone else to do the same. Anna’s right, it’s applicable to all of us, not just Sikhs.
Yes. The video was depressing: Van Halen without DLR just isn’t right.
I wonder if those that grew up knowing their cast in the States are too shy to comment here, because they might be looked down upon by some of the other commenters? Knowing which caste you traditionally belonged to (and I mean exactly that, tradition as in time and place and geneology) is not the same as being a bigot. A bigot judges you based on caste. Two different things entirely.
I grew up knowing my family was jat and we attended jat functions in the US during the seventies and early eighties; activities that stopped after I entered my mid teens. I saw the functions as regional, I was unaware of the meaning of ‘caste’ and, indeed, heard extremely disparaging comments about Indians who refused to serve dalits. My father is from Haryana and people from Haryana were often jats, is how I understood things. The family farmed and served in the military back in India, which is entirely typical. These early US jat organizations seemed to function in the same way Gujurati, Tamil, etc. organizations functioned at the time. My parents, who came to the States in the late sixties, were a bit atypical. They were both raised away from their ‘traditional’ family homes, and families, for different reasons. Think non-scholarship and scholarship* boarding school denizens…..when that first landmark generation came to the States they were brave, adventurous young things, excited about the future, yet so far from home, so they organized themselves in fairly standard ways, by region, language, school, and, yes, even caste. These original organizations gave way to larger, more umbrella South Asian groups. My immediate family no longer attend such functions, but my relatives who emigrated at a later age in life, or have only been in the States for a few years, are probably more likely to be involved in these types of civic organizations, for the purposes of raising money for charities, etc. Most of my cousins are already married, so that doesn’t come into it, and they’ve done the American thing and married ‘around’ so to speak. I think one of my relatives who is a military veteran is more involved in all sorts of ‘Indian/jat’ organizations, but I think that is a unique thing for my family today: he served and has his own interests, which include remaining interested in the military, even as he is retired. I wonder if in India, military veterans organize themselves in this way?
*As an aside, I once had my mother tell me she felt more discrimination in India than the US because she grew up in a rough way, her mother widowed and money tight. “It’s money that matters,” she once told me, sadly. She seems to have conflicted feelings about her childhood, in my opinion. Great, great love of her school and school friends and school days, and yet, a certain insecurity from her family situation. America was a great adventure for her; difficult, rewarding, disappointing, and finally, simply what is.
I don’t recall, despite knowing my caste growing up, giving a damn about my multicultural or desi identity, or my relation to others of desi heritage, other than a certain embarrassment I would feel because kids who were more traditionally Indian than me would make me ‘feel’ it. I think sometimes the more ‘traditional’ among you don’t realize quite how much of an outsider you make the more ‘Americanized’ of us feel….
Damnit. That last comment didn’t come out right. It should have been:
Yep. Some of them even converted to Sikhism and, as far as I’m aware, therefore discarded their Brahminical status. Anyone know for sure?
Red Snapper,
I, too, am “mixed caste,” and by technical standards in South India, even of mixed religion. My mother is Saraswat Brahmin and my father a Lingayat whose religion is Veershaivism. College has been a difficult place for me to meet Indians and make friends because many people were reluctant to associate with me after finding out I’m not “pure”…they often regard my parents’ marriage as deviant and immediately talk about their parents’ arranged caste-based marriages.
I agree, it is sneaky how people ask last names and when they are confronted with my anomaly of one, they always “assume the worst”…interest always seems to die away once they realize my last name isn’t Rao or some such thing…
How/when did your “mixed caste” identity affect your social life in the diaspora? I’d be really curious to know and maybe even relate since I don’t know many people who claim mixed caste heritage…
this behavior is f@$ing insane…what kinds of Indians do you associate with?
“College has been a difficult place for me to meet Indians and make friends because many people were reluctant to associate with me after finding out I’m not “pure”…they often regard my parents’ marriage as deviant and immediately talk about their parents’ arranged caste-based marriages.”
Feminstador, this totally sucks. I can totally relate to rejection by other Indians on the basis of caste/region/religion/etc. Being South Indian at my college and then on top of it a Brahmin was like being Republican in Berkeley. I can’t tell you how many jokes were made at my expense re: South Indian food, my stricter upbringing, having to make frequent trips to the temple, etc.
I don’t know what caste my desi ancestors were. Since they were colonial-era Christian converts… I doubt it was very high. Despite this presumed low status, it’s been my white half that’s caused more standoffishness among desis… especially ABD’s. That probably has a lot to do with the brown identity and idea of cooperation against a common “enemy” that many cultivate as a defense against problems just like this… not only caste but also religion, ethnicity and nationality…
I think there might be some regional variation too. For example I am willing to conjecture that this kind of thing is relatively rarer among Bengalis (though they do obviously exist).
feministador:
i have a question for you about me. i’m Lingayat/Veershaiva too (well, im american…but you know what i mean). anyhow, i was told by my parents that our religion doesn’t believe in caste. but then as a kid i sort of suspected that ligayats were themselves a caste. i never bothered to look into the issue over the years b/c it just seemed so insignificant to the real world, but after all this time, i’m suddenly curious again. googling has given me some contradictory info.
i’d ask my parents, but like most parents, when it comes to religion, they just pull a lot of crap out of their asses. so maybe you know.
Ah, I’m such sentimentalist…I just watched the video (for the second time, the first was right before I wrote this) and it made me tear up. I love that Jakara/these youths (as my crazy Uncle would say) are talking about, thinking about this. The kids are all right.
Interesting video, thanks for posting.
heres my little experience about caste: the first time I ever heard/learned about caste was when I was about 13 and someone scribbled “JATT” in spray paint on the wall of our local Gurdwara. When I later learned about what “jatt” actually meant (actually ,i still don’t really understand the caste stuff) and that my family was Jatt, I was ashamed. I really did not want to be a part of a “caste” that vandalized Gurdwara, and totally disrepecting Sikhs of a different “caste”/heritage.
These Jakara people seem to be trying to do something good. I found this video I guess from last year’s conference on youtube. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhR6bPZSlvY
that video has a bunch to comment about. The music of the second sequence is just so eerie. Anyone can translate? My punjabi isn’t too good.
Also this video seems to be about what their activities are. Seems like they even went to help with the Katrina relief efforts. It helped me remember when I actually like Michael Jackson. I also found a link to their blog with the Katrina efforts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXDdJkxm9XI http://jakara.blogspot.com/
And finally leave them some comments on the youtube message board. I just did!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFORpo4vAqU
Lovin the music!
Jasleen: that’s terrible! I don’t understand the whole jat-sikh thing…I can’t remember the make-up of the meetings I went to as a child in the 70s and I don’t remember religion being a part of any of that experience. I guess we just are not a religious family, in general. Is this a big source of friction in the sikh community or are these isolated incidents? I know Ennis has mentioned many times that sikhism explicitly rejects caste distinctions.
Manju,
RE:”anyhow, i was told by my parents that our religion doesn’t believe in caste.”
this is a tenet of veerashaivism, and in fact veerashaivism is said to be somehow related to jains migrating to south india, establishing their sect etc. so yeah, i’ve heard this, too. however, i neglected to mention that even within my dad’s lingayat community in karnataka, their are def. subcaste heirarchies. i.e.–my dad’s family shortened their name from what used to be one indicating their status as “gowda” or community leaders. apparently that is a subcaste (?!) so even as others about have mentioned, it seems that religions that seem to have tenets that strictly admonish casteism, it still pervades the philosophy…my parents don’t talk about caste much since it has been a pretty traumatic influence on their relations with the rest of the family.
milli,
see i never got the “you’re south indian, your parents are strict and you go to the temple” stereotype. since i hadn’t been socialized in the indian community when i was younger, i was always labeled as “anti-indian” though i am nothing of the sort! in college, most people were shocked when i first told them i am south indian…turned off and disappointed, even. but the ultimate diss is when a guy will decide not to date me because i “have no caste” or am “mixed caste.” but i guess my progressive attitude towards religion (i.e.–my atheism due to not being able to find my religious niche) and casteism (i.e.–not adhering to the norms of that -ism) always scares the traditionalists off. they don’t know how/where to categorize me and so they write me off as having no sense of culture. basically, they avoid this conundrum! 😛