582 thoughts on “Why Does Caste Matter to US?”

1. “As my mom says, “if people invoke the label of Brahmin to put other people down, they aren’t really Brahmin”.

   Very much agree, and it is just certain members, and there is no guarantee that their children will grow up with the same beliefs.

   It is just frustrating because I am seeing it everyday. Good hearted people that go out of their way to help others get shitted on, all because “we are of a higher caste therefore you are third class”.

   I wish these people would stop using God, religion and caste and just admit that they’re arsehols.

2. they are hindu jains

   This sounds like something yogi berra would say… “Give it to me straight up, with a little ice”

3. And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that Sikhism is so progressive, has any one struggled with the fact that almost all of the Sikh gurus were of the Khatri caste ( I think it is 8 or 9 out of 10)?

   Hmm, since the Gurus themselves told us we shouldn’t differentiate based on caste and that all should be considered equal, how does this question have any relevance?

4. Hmm, since the Gurus themselves told us we shouldn’t differentiate based on caste and that all should be considered equal, how does this question have any relevance?

   Because saying something and doing it are two different things.

5. The saddest part of the immigrant experience is the loss of cultural identity and family ties, but it also leads to most exhilirating part of the immigrant experience – the chance to create something brand new and to have children that won’t be stifled by the rules and demands that were placed on our parents and grandparents

   This is a good analysis, Lakshmi. Simple and true. However, I have to disagree with you on “the caste system is as un-American as it gets” — just look around, I mean, really look around. Visit urban centers, suburban segregation and the American south – the caste system is alive and well here, even though it’s not called Chettiars vs. Naidus. Every society creates a hierarchy as it ages … that’s the drawback of growing old and not necessarily growing up.

6. I think its very relevant — For example, the fact that we’ve never had a black president or a woman president in this country, kindof mitigates American ideals of equality and equal access.

7. Plus, the caste system is as un-American as it gets and I’ve always felt that being American

   Total bullshit. Class based discrimination exists here just the same, the thing is, there’s a high correlation to race-based discrimination and that tends to occupy the discussion. It was only a matter of time until the discussion turned into “America! America! rah rah rah! yeaaaa red white and blue!”

8. Sorry let me be more clear – my post was in response to:

   And, as a side note, since so many here brought up that Sikhism is so progressive, has any one struggled with the fact that almost all of the Sikh gurus were of the Khatri caste ( I think it is 8 or 9 out of 10)? Hmm, since the Gurus themselves told us we shouldn’t differentiate based on caste and that all should be considered equal, how does this question have any relevance?

   And I said – I think its very relevant — For example, the fact that we’ve never had a black president or a woman president in this country, kindof mitigates American ideals of equality and equal access.

9. rudie_c

   i do not know your uncle and aunts, and how wise they are, or not. i will give them the benefit of doubt. however, you need some serious education too:

   1) first, jains are not hindus. sure, they belong to a dharmic religion, and they are commonalities in both religions, and sometime people inter-practice too (like Gandhi and his family had strong jain influences). therefore, there are no “hindu jains” – this is something quite important.

   2) second, some punjabis are brahmins too.

   i guess right now, this thread is a “progressive than thou” fest – factual knowledge is secondary, or even it matters at all.

   i respect maitri’s stance. america has its own caste system – it is money.

   red snapper, if somebody asked you your caste in a temple, big deal, that person did not commit any high crime, move on, my friend. sure, caste system has real pernicious effects, however, asking someone asked in a social setting is not one of them.

10. Just got home to this comment on ptr (from someone in the US), then came here to this post. There is no excuse for caste pride in the diaspora.

11. The saddest part of the immigrant experience is the loss of cultural identity and family ties, but it also leads to most exhilirating part of the immigrant experience- the chance to create something brand new and to have children that won’t be stifled by the rules and demands that were placed on our parents and grandparents.

    I couldn’t agree more. I grew up in a very Indian/traditional house but outside of the house I had absolutely no Indian friends, and I am glad for it. It forced me to forge my own identity separate from my “Indian-ness” and it forced me to seek friendships that did not revolve around my ethnicity. Don’t get me wrong — it was definately difficult growing up being different but the struggles and the complexities that ensued have me richer for it.

12. red snapper, if somebody asked you your caste in a temple, big deal, that person did not commit any high crime, move on, my friend. sure, caste system has real pernicious effects, however, asking someone asked in a social setting is not one of them.

    Kush, respectfully, don’t tell me what to think or feel about my experiences through my life. Because your advice here is arrogant and presumptious.

    i guess right now, this thread is a “progressive than thou” fest – factual knowledge is secondary, or even it matters at all.

    That is your perception, but it is wrong.

13. america has its own caste system – it is money.

    The Americans inherited their “caste system” from the British, after all…and the British were masters of social division based on birth (which boils down to distinctions based on wealth).

14. Plus, the caste system is as un-American as it gets and I’ve always felt that being American

    I agree with you to a certain extent;class and caste are very different.

    I know some scholars have compared American race problems to be similar to India’s caste system.

    But even then I think there are differences, partly because the US is a modern country (meaning that most Americans get their identity from their citizenship and not a tribe or family grouping) and India still is (despite its constitution) a traditional country (meaning most Indians still get their identity from their tribe, caste, religion, region, as opposed to being an Indian citizen) although this is of course changing.

15. america has its own caste system – it is money.

    Except that one can (at least theoretically) acquire money. One cannot assure birth in the “right” family of the “right” background.

16. I grew up in a very Indian/traditional house but outside of the house I had absolutely no Indian friends, and I am glad for it. It forced me to forge my own identity separate from my “Indian-ness” and it forced me to seek friendships that did not revolve around my ethnicity.

    You guys are committing the same fallacy (both logical and social) that you accuse casteist desis as committing. It is one thing to consider ethnicity irrelevant when making friendships, but its another to reject certain friendships based on ethnicity (there is also a basic modal logical mistake that I will not go into).

17. It forced me to forge my own identity separate from my “Indian-ness” and it forced me to seek friendships that did not revolve around my ethnicity.

    I fail to see the connection. I had more or less an equal # of Indian and non-Indian friends, and had an equal amount of forging going on. The Indian friends I did have weren’t solely because they were Indian – I actually made sure I resonated with them as actual human beings too, this is what most sane people do.

    I did know some Indians growing up who would avoid Indian ppeople, and make sure their white friends showed up at Indian functions at their house – but that was just an artifact of self hatred. Self hatred is more damaging than any nebulous caste system.

18. It is one thing to consider ethnicity irrelevant when making friendships, but its another to reject certain friendships based on ethnicit

    y

    I understand what you are saying. I didn’t really reject an ethnicity. It was the demographics of the area. I had plenty of Indian classmates and friendships when I got older but was glad that I had some respite from my Indian-ness in between.

19. some typos: should have been asteist desis from committing and its another thing altogether to reject certain friendships based on ethnicity

20. I have to say that I can’t really relate to this thread…Plus, the caste system is as un-American as it gets and I’ve always felt that being American was a huge part of my identity and that it was one that couldn’t coexist with a caste identity.

    I can’t really relate to being so naive, but I’m going to try. HMF was right to call “bullshit”. America loves its caste system just like every country does. I adore America, but I can still recognize that there are caste markers everywhere, right down to what kind of sandals one wears in the Hamptons. If being American is such a huge part of your identity, it behooves you to pay more attention to the socio-economic stratification which is as plain as the nose on your face.

    This post also reminded me of why I am sometimes reluctant to make friends with other Indians/Hindus/South Asians.

    I honestly can’t imagine someone white or black saying something this narrow-minded or inane.

21. This brings into view one direct reason why caste persists into the second generation among South Asians – the resistance to being absorbed into alternative, but just as pernicious (class, race or color- based) systems of stratification and oppression. I know we like to cultivate the ‘brown’ identity here a lot, at SM, but there are lots of people who are happier being ‘Sikh Jats’ ‘Jain Baniyas’ or ‘TamBrahms’ and often come here and say so. They are expressing a reluctance to becoming absorbed into what they think is a mere color-based group identification. If they’re not going to be ‘brown’ or ‘South Asian’, well, what are they going to be?

    Red, your point about looking at caste in the Guyanese /Trinidadian context is a good one. Many of the ‘West Indian’ South Asians I’ve met have more readily adopted a ‘brown’ or ‘black’ identity – but on the other hand, those who carried more ‘cultural capital’ (baggage?) with them must have thought of themselves as ‘Brahmin’ and so on – like Naipaul’s family seems to have.

22. Anyone been asked what their caste was by a non-South Asian – like a white American?

    of course, i “look hindu” so the culturally sensitive one often inquire 😉

    let me reiterate that of course people can have group level identities which they cherish and aren’t pricks about. there is a focus on “upper castes” on this thread because like those with “light skin” these are the groups who tend to use their station in life to put others down. perhaps some of you are perfect, but i’m not, and i exhibit various prejudices consciously, subconsciously and reflexively. some of them i’m not particularly proud of. these discussion are relevant insofar as they help define the bounds of what helps us as brownz living in the west live the “good life.” i think it also gives us a sense of perspective, in terms of others views within “the community,” and how we are perceived from without (and not perceived).

23. An especially relevant headline today about the results for the exams to enter the Indian administrative services ( a very big deal in India) http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/05_2007/upsc-results-out-obc-candidate-tops-the-list-40570.html

    I guess as long as the reservations exist, people will be bothered about what caste they belong to.

24. . It is one thing to consider ethnicity irrelevant when making friendships,

    I say even this is problematic, that is, if a person says, “I see every ethnicity as equally compatible with me” it’s problematic and somewhat unrealistic. There’s nothing wrong with considering ethnicity because it’s indicative of a certain degree of shared experiences. It’s not the end all and be all, sure, but it isn’t completely neglectable either. It’s another story if a lack of options existed…

25. I adore America, but I can still recognize that there are caste markers everywhere, right down to what kind of sandals one wears in the Hamptons.

    I have to disagree with the assertion that there is a “caste” system in America. There is capitalism and racism in America which are probably not a good combination but there isn’t a caste system. The marker you speak of is one of money and money can be acquired (more easily by some than others, sure, but nonetheless. One can buy the right pair of sandals but one cannot go back and change which family or background they were born to.

26. I can’t really relate to being so naive, but I’m going to try. HMF was right to call “bullshit”. America loves its caste system just like every country does.

    I wouldn’t call what we have now in America caste. There are huge differences between India’s caste system and America’s classism.

27. i exhibit various prejudices consciously, subconsciously and reflexively.

    Yes, I do that too, or at least I suspect I do, and I’ll probably be more conscious of it as a result of this discussion.

    I’ve always wondered at what point identification with a community or caste goes from being mere “pride” to something more pernicious, like prejudice or superiority.

    For example, in the Tamil diaspora communities, anti-Brahmin sentiment tends to manifest itself as a rejection of things that are seen as inherently Brahminical. The best example of this is the rejection of Sanskrit names, or sanskritized spellings in favor of Tamil names, or Tamilized spellings of Sanskrit names. Isn’t this a form of discrimination too? And if you happen to like the Sanskrit words and spellings, are you guilty of identifying too closely with one particular caste? Where do you draw the line?

28. Kush Tandon,

    Once again sir fair point. And I did not know that some Punjabis were Brahmins too.

    It is just upsetting that some people use the Brahmin to put others down. The Jain example I used is because that particular community (and again not by all) gets bashed by these so-called Brahmins all the time.

    Maybe it is my lack of understanding, or trying to be SO open minded that it has made me narrow-minded.

    All I know is that to belittle someone because they are different, caste or community is wrong

29. One can buy the right pair of sandals but one cannot go back and change which family or background they were born to.

    You are exactly right– one CANNOT change the background they come from, and breeding is as important as money, sometimes moreso. There were girls at my prep school who were essentially (relatively)impoverished American aristocrats, as nonsensical as that sounds, but those middle/upper-middle class types were still more esteemed than the very wealthy M. Patel, otherwise known as “Motel Money”. Not our class, darling.

    Just because you can afford x, doesn’t mean you’ll be accepted. Anyone can get rich, but that doesn’t mean that other wealthy people are going to see you as an equal.

30. I say even this is problematic, that is, if a person says, “I see every ethnicity as equally compatible with me” it’s problematic and somewhat unrealistic. There’s nothing wrong with considering ethnicity because it’s indicative of a certain degree of shared experiences. It’s not the end all and be all, sure, but it isn’t completely neglectable either. It’s another story if a lack of options existed

    I don’t think we disagree by much. You are saying that ethnicity is a marker of certain shared experiences, but I am saying that even if there is a correlation between certain ethnicities and certain experiences, one could directly go to those experiences rather than mediate them through ethnicity. Sure, the latter take more time, but isn’t that what friendship about? I realize that this argument does not hold if certain experiences are exclusive to certain ethnicities.

31. There are huge differences between India’s caste system and America’s classism

    .

    To the extent that America’s ‘classism’ leads to the inter-generational persistence of socio-economic inequality, and is furthermore based on a resistance to inter-gamy based on a color or race consciousness, there are very important similarities.

32. The marker you speak of is one of money and money can be acquired (more easily by some than others, sure, but nonetheless. One can buy the right pair of sandals but one cannot go back and change which family or background they were born to.

    Are you serious? Have you ever considered that one’s family background in large part influences their position in life ? Cough Bush Cough It’s not a matter of buying the right pair of sandals. A black child growing up in a poor community, with gunfire in the streets, shitty schools, and gang rule can do just as much to change his situation than a low caste villager who’s not allowed to drink water from the north well.

    What America doesn’t have is “strange sounding” words like Kshatriya and Vaishya to classify people.

33. typos again, sigh….but isn’t that what is friendship about

34. I fail to see the connection. I had more or less an equal # of Indian and non-Indian friends, and had an equal amount of forging going on. The Indian friends I did have weren’t solely because they were Indian – I actually made sure I resonated with them as actual human beings too, this is what most sane people do.

    Well, I don’t think I implied that one cannot be friends with someone of the same ethnicity or that there is nothing to be garnered from it. But, I have found that in my Indian relationships — a lot of the conversation is dominated by “Indian” things that we could all understand and share. There is nothing wrong with that. I am just glad that I had a lot of relationships where I had to relate to others without this shared experience.

    I doubt Indians hang out with other Indians simply because they are both Indian. I do think, however, they are drawn to each other initially and then sort out from that group who they get along with. I think this initially, locks out a lot of people who may have had a different perspective to contribute.

35. For example, in the Tamil diaspora communities, anti-Brahmin sentiment tends to manifest itself as a rejection of things that are seen as inherently Brahminical. The best example of this is the rejection of Sanskrit names, or sanskritized spellings in favor of Tamil names, or Tamilized spellings of Sanskrit names. Isn’t this a form of discrimination too? And if you happen to like the Sanskrit words and spellings, are you guilty of identifying too closely with one particular caste? Where do you draw the line?

    This is something I was thinking of as far as caste pride. Since I come from a lower caste and I read about how a holy man from my caste opened the temple doors to all Keralite Hindus and helped to a large extent to eradicate caste discrimination for everyone, there is pride in that.

    But when this caste pride is taken too far, that’s when it becomes pernicious. I love celebrating people cultural influences and I often don’t think caste has to be evil…the way it is practiced is evil…but I have friends who are brahmin and they practice things a certain way, and I respect that…they don’t look down on others – there are just traditions that they have in ways they worship – traditions that don’t invoke hierarchy, at least in the way they and their family practice it. For example vegetarianism. My sister is married to a brahmin and his parents, whom I adore and are so loving, are strict vegetarians…well that’s fine with me.

    I guess they take certain practices from their brahmin culture and take out the hierarchical part, and instead they are left with age-old traditions that still have meaning for them – benevolent meaning. After all caste was originally non-hierarchical.

    This is all to say that I believe you can carry on certain caste traditions and have pride in your ancestory, well because it is your ancestory, and this doesn’t have to be pernicious.

36. but isn’t that what friendship is about? (heavy sigh…)

37. The best example of this is the rejection of Sanskrit names, or sanskritized spellings in favor of Tamil names, or Tamilized spellings of Sanskrit names. Isn’t this a form of discrimination too? And if you happen to like the Sanskrit words and spellings, are you guilty of identifying too closely with one particular caste? Where do you draw the line?

    identification is fine (or it isn’t pernicious). people get to pick & choose, within reason, the bounds of their identity. people change religions, change names, and change classes. the problem occurs when people get into the “we are like this” (good) and “they are like that” (not good). the problem occurs when you dislike people because of their identity and not because of who they were. “so & so is x, and you know how they are….” or, “don’t hate me cuz i’m y, you know we’re all that….” in my exp. this is only an irritation, but i can imagine that JOAT feels it be a pretty intensely awkward experience, while i have read/heard about experiences which dalits who immigrate to the west have to deal with. as for tamils, rejecting the superiority complex of tambrams as unseemly seems fine, but some of the stuff you see starts to verge on anti-brahmin bigotry, and inversion of the sin which they abhor.

38. all of that above that i have said about caste can also apply to someone to converts to a religion and becomes holier than thou. converting to a religion isn’t a bad thing necessarily, but using it to pump up your own self-image is pathetic and tiresome. yes, i know that you’re going to heaven and i’m going to hell, now shut up!

39. To the extent that America’s ‘classism’ leads to the inter-generational persistence of socio-economic inequality, and is furthermore based on a resistance to inter-gamy based on a color or race consciousness, there are very important similarities.

    there can be a qualitative similarity and a quantitative difference. black americans were on the receiving end of racism in 1940 and are on the receiving end of racism in 2007. but, there is a quantitative difference (as well as changes in the issues which are in the fore).

40. Growing up in India., I had my earliest personal encounter with the caste thing when my maternal grandmother refused to eat at our house because our maid was low caste (she wanted the maid to be brahmin too!). My mom refused to let the maid go but to appease my granny she used to wash her plates herself. Even at that age, me,all my cousins and friends who had encountered similar stuff to some extent thought it was stupid and too “gaon wala” thing (I know we were guilty ourselves to stereotype villagers !).

    But there was a real sense of resentment and ill will among a lot of my friends at the time of college admissions when we saw some of our acedimacally challenged,upto no good backbencher classmates make it to far better colleges then us. It was tought and I know a lot of my friends still harbor the ill will.

    Also,I hardly (if ever!) seen anybody ask someone what their caste in India (maybe cause people generally are able to figure out by last name). But here it has happened to me more then a couple of times, all of the time by 2nd geners. It was actually a lil shocking how straighforward some questions were and how sometimes there was a presumption of superiority.

41. hey homies- i have a question- someone commented on sikhism and one of its founding principles being rejection of castism. many folks say the same thing about jainism- that part of its founding philosophy was a rejection of caste (equality of the soul and etc). in reality i don’t find this at all, since, one, lots of jains are from teh same caste so they’re still grouping together in an exclusive way, and second, in india at least, most jains still talk about caste in a very real way. btw- if it’s not obvious, i’m jain (at least by identity), but i have lots of questions/concerns of the type being discussed in this thread and others.

    if anyone has any info, pass along- i’m always looking for critical essays and the rest on jainism and eastern religion, but am usually not able to find anythign good. it feels like our communities just sort of accept religion as it is without a lot of thought or questioning, which i would guess results in things like caste and sexism being a real part of our religions even now. and the academics usually write books that are “about” the religions rather than offering critical views.

42. I personally don’t think there is anything like India’s caste system outside India (at the most I’d agree that other desi countries have something comparable, but I’d never stretch it outside South Asia). The way it has unfolded and developed, multiplied and become increasingly MORE complex over the centuries, and the way it’s been SO resistant to social reform, and been so pernicious, and the way it’s even entered the mentality of 2nd/3rd gens, is a UNIQUELY desi thing. I know that various other societies over the ages have had some caste-like features, or some kind of very basic caste system, and I agree that the West is stratified by race and socio-economic class, but NOTHING is like the desi version. Nothing.

43. Except that one can (at least theoretically) acquire money. One cannot assure birth in the “right” family of the “right” background.

    You will be surprised to hear the thoughts of some Bostonian “Brahmins” on “new money”

44. amitabh, i agree with your general sentiment. though i think the burakumin in japan are similar. same ethnicity, language, religion, etc. but there is a ‘purity’ difference.

45. [I think caste mattered to our grandparents (and probably our parents) because it defined their social mores, their manner of speech, their culinary traditions, their marriage customs, etc. But most South Asians raised in a more westernized setting are much more influenced by their local culture]

    — It’s not just culture! It’s money, education, financial knowledge, job skills…

    With a few exceptions, the posts on here fail to mention that education prospects and tools for financial success are often (not always, but often) passed between generations. As someone with roots in a ‘lower caste’ community in India (though I was raised in the U.S.), I find it hard to believe that it is mere coincidence that my relatives are doing manual labor in shops, gas stations, etc. in New York, while I have 2nd-gen. American desi friends from Brahmin families whose parents are affluent professionals and even have grandparents who were college- educated. While there are absolutely lower-caste Indians and Dalits who have prospered, acquired education, etc., there are certain inter-generational benefits (inter-woven with caste!) that accumulate when more and more people in a family become educated, upwardly mobile, professionals, etc. Yes, even in cities. These inter-generational ingredients for success (so-called business ‘savvy,’ like being well-versed in how to make certain financial and professional decisions, gain access credit, etc.) — these things are just as real as distinctions of food, speech and marriage — and I would argue have the most damaging effects.

    [not being able to drink water at someone’s house are fairly rare in the urban, middle-class milieu.]

    — How many of us have actually listened to the stories of urban, middle-class, desi immigrant parents from lower castes or Dalit communities? Not many, I’m guessing (which is why I would not blame Hema for her optimism)… because there are so few of them in this country! But they do exist. As a 2nd-gen. desi from a lower (carpenter) caste on both sides of my family, I was bred on my father’s stories of Brahmins refusing to drink water from his well-educated, middle-class home in a major Indian city.

    A lot of American-born desis I try to engage with about casteism seem to feel far-removed from it, or have not given it much thought, because (I think)–being mostly from Brahmin or bania families–they fail to see how their own lives and opportunities in the U.S. have been privileged, in one way or another, by being from upwardly mobile communities in the homeland.

    At some point, Brahmin scholars and Euro-American academics would vastly benefit (as would we all) from actually listening to the voices of those on the bottom whose life choices are greatly restricted by caste-based bigotry and casteist attitudes from within and outside of their communities.

    PURUSH:

    Regarding OBC and ST/SC quotas, I think the debate very much parallels the controversy over affirmative action in American universities. But, the next time you visit Mumbai, I would suggest taking a trip to IIT (Powai) and look at the names on the student rosters. They are overwhelmingly Sharmas, Desais, Reddys, etc. etc. (And I was just there last year.) I have heard the argument many times that OBCs, STs, SCs are crowding out upper-castes from universities in India; I am not convinced that Brahmins are in danger of being disadvantaged by the quota system, though there is no doubt, a lot of resentment (nor am I convinced that the progress of whites in America is endangered by affirmative action in U.S. universities that only benefit a handful of individuals.)

46. You will be surprised to hear the thoughts of some Bostonian “Brahmins” on “new money”

    jealousy. anyway, things change. the astors were once the new rich in new york. then they became the establishment and the vanderbilts were the new rich. then they became the establishment and the rockefellers became the new rich.

47. A black child growing up in a poor community, with gunfire in the streets, shitty schools, and gang rule can do just as much to change his situation than a low caste villager who’s not allowed to drink water from the north well.

    I agree with you that a black child growing up in a poor community is severly dissadvantaged. I did not say everyone can acquire equally and that is a serious problem in the United States. I still rather be a black child growing up in the ghetto than a dalit in India. It is not the same. Brahmins and Dalits in India have been Brahmins and Dalits for as long as their families have been around. Mobility from one caste to another is not even theoretically possible. Whereas in the United States most families who are wealthy now were not 150 years ago. Mobility does not work equally for everyone, and some families have access to better resources but to claim but that is not “castism”. I think we are simply using that word incorrectly. There is classism, racism, and capitalism in the US. We can argue those on their merits if you like but I think its an unfair and forced assertion to call it castism

48. i’ve been following the comments all day. this post has brought up a lot of questions and emotions for me. for the most part, maitri’s posts resonate with me the most.

    to the original question, why, i experienced an initial cringe/stomach-flippy reaction. i have been aware of my caste for as long as i can remember. i became more aware of my subcaste in my teens and acutely aware of my caste-subcaste-subsubcaste distinction within the last five years. why do i feel the need to identify with or share with others my caste background? because being raised in a family of super orthodox tamil vadagalai iyengars has had a huge impact on my identity development; to be asked to suddenly ignore a huge part of my identity — which has influenced my language, cuisine, social life, and worldview in positive and negative ways — makes me feel both scared and upset. i can’t intellectualize it beyond that. i grew up learning tamil pasurams and sanskrit slokams while my mom drove me to school; my father was the religious committee chair at the temple and has always consulted on the appropriate way to conduct ceremonies; i was forced to follow an enormous number of rituals that only other iyengars didn’t roll their eyes at. as an adult, i do consider myself religious, and although my philosophy does not align 100% with visistadwaita philosophy, i respect it and feel the effects of being raised in that tradition daily. i do honestly feel a greater kinship with other 2nd-gen vadagalai iyengars, moreso than even other south indians or indians in general, because these are the people who really, truly “get” me. i can talk about family vacations without explaining that family vacation meant packing a week’s worth of thayir sadam in a cooler, packing 3 families into a mini-van, and listening to the vishnu sahasranamam on repeat for 6 hours on the way to visit family friends in wisconsin. i can have them over to my parents’ house and avoid entering the kitchen without having to explain that yes, even in this modern age, i have to observe madi rules when i have my period. when i identify myself as a vadagalai iyengar, it is with two intentions: 1) to implicitly identify the way i was raised and 2) to specify the religious philosophy that i adhere to. regarding the first point, i feel that it is basically the same thing as saying “i was raised in chicago” (translation: i’m used to cold weather, i have an unfortunate midwest accent, i never tasted real beer until i moved to the west coast, etc.). “i was raised in an orthodox iyengar household” (translation: my mom never baked because she doesn’t eat eggs, we never brought leftovers home, i could recite the entire suprabatham before i could tie my shoelaces, etc.) it’s a cultural identifier but i don’t use it to assert my cultural or religious superiority.

    i pick and choose the rituals and philosophies that suit me, and reject others that don’t; my parents have always been open to my questions about our traditions. because they are so knowledgeable (and only continue to learn more as they age), they have been able to answer my questions satisfactorily, engage in debates with me, and agree to disagree on many points. their open-mindedness and bafflingly inclusive attitudes towards the culture i have adopted for myself have only made me respect my heritage more. i have never once heard ANYONE in my parents’ generation or younger disparage others on the basis of caste. that being said, i am well aware of the implicit ways in which it happens — temple rituals, for example, or treatment of hired help in india. i have had lengthy discussions with my parents about caste discrimination, especially in recent months since marriage has been a hot topic around the house. we are all in agreement that, to quote maitri’s mom, “if people invoke the label of Brahmin to put other people down, they aren’t really Brahmin.” they would rather see me marry someone i am truly compatible with, regardless of race or caste, than someone who is an iyengar by name only. perhaps my experience has been different, but i feel lucky to have a pride in my heritage that shouldn’t be confused with smugness or supremacy.

49. black americans were on the receiving end of racism in 1940 and are on the receiving end of racism in 2007. but, there is a quantitative difference (as well as changes in the issues which are in the fore).

    Sure. But the caste system in India/South Asia has also evolved during 1940-2007 – qualitatively same, quantitatively different, so some issues from then are not relevant today, other new ones have arisen etc.

50. welcome_to_NY-istan, tx for your perspective! a few times i’ve asked around for a dalit voice (i assume you aren’t from a dalit background, i wouldn’t want to ‘insult’ you 😉 on these boards and there’s silence.