I think I found this after reading an email sent out on the ASATA listserv; it asked for participants for a survey on caste and Sikhism. Since I’m interested in both, I decided to take a quick look. The first notes wafted tentatively through my iBook’s wee speakers and I smiled: Van Halen. I knew exactly what kind of video this would be. We used to make ones just like it for JSA‘s Fall and Spring “State”, usually to open the conference. Well, it was either that or we’d blare Public Enemy‘s “Fight the Power“…
After watching it, I was moved, because I felt like so much of it was applicable to all of us, not just Sikhs. Someone Malayalee needs to make one of these, stat, I muttered…and then I realized that they didn’t. Maybe they should just watch this, I thought and that’s when I knew it belonged here, in a space where it would get the attention it rightly deserves.
Ravidasia // Khatri // Jatt // Tarkhan…The labels that divide us are endless. Caste, gender, class, and power tear apart our Qaum, our Gurdwaras, and our Pariwars. How do we overcome? How do we forge unity without silencing voices? [Jakara]
My closest friend in college was a Sikh girl from Fremont, who happened to be Tarkhan. My boyfriend from Freshman through Junior year was Jatt. So were all of his friends. They made fun of her when she wasn’t around and ignored her when she was. This baffled coconut-flavored me. “Why are you so mean to her?” I’d ask him, over and over. “She’s nice.”
“Because she’s…Tarkhan. They’re lower class. And so backwards– didn’t you say her parents tried to get her married when she was 17, that they didn’t even want to send her to college? Who the hell does that?”
“That’s not her fault, why are you taking it out on her?”
“Look, it’s a Sikh thing…it’s probably difficult to understand. Don’t you have a sorority thing to go to?”
::
I’m amazed at how often caste shows up on our comment threads, among second gen kids who should know better. Then I am humbled as I remember that I’m complicit in this too, when I tease my best friend about doing TamBrahm stuff or when I embroider stories from bygone UC Davis days with an extra adjective which probably isn’t necessary:
“Well a lot of students were from the Central Valley or Yuba City…so a good number of the desis I befriended were Jatt Sikh.”
It’s so insidious, the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?
“actually, that is how it’s done at all 4 temples we attend here in the US (in 3 diff. states). i’m sure it’s different in smaller local temple in india, and the the big temples here seem to be getting more and more orthodox with the passing of each full moon. that listserv mesg. was coincidentally written by a family friend who was a religious committee chair at a temple here. (btw — wouldn’t a pakka tamil household be more likely to ditch the vedas during sattumurai, esp. tengalai families?) now it is saturday night and i will go have a real life.”
In Tirumala, I’m pretty sure its all from the Divyaprabhandam…I thought it was entirely from the Thiruppavai in that temple but I could be wrong.
I know that the Thiruppavai is sung at some point during the day there-and this is the time when initiated Sri Vaishnavas are the only ones allowed near the garba griha. I don’t remember any other Tamil recitations with the exception of Neerattam during the Thirumanjanam.
Anyone who’s been to a SVT in the US, do you know if there are other prabhandams recited during the abhishekam or if its only the neerattam?
Really? which ones. and which part of the Veda is recited? I’m well aquainted with Satagopan and Anbil, heavily involved with Ramanuja.org. Is this who you’re talking about. And isn’t it Friday night?
For example, I’m not so sure that’s how its done in Bridgewater, Pittsburgh, Lemont or Malibu? But I couldn’t be too sure, about the latter 2.
First off, the Tamil caste system does not directly tranlate into the Vedic caste system (i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, Sudra). Only the Tamil Brahmins fit neatly into those categories and they refer to all other Tamils who are not Dalits as Shudras
Its is the Brahmins who run those sampradeyams, so the Brahmins who label them Shudras. Even in Shaiva Siddhanta, which is not dominated by Brahmins, where there are even Vellala-controlled adheenams for instance, a category of “sat shudra” (pure shudra) arose to accomodate shudras with higher ritual status.
I’m not as well-versed as the rest of you on sattumurai, so I can’t be certain this is correct, but at the local temple here (in Minneapolis), Thirupallandu is recited after naivedhyam, but before the aarti (i.e. not the regular deeparaadhanai). Of course, the aarti is an add-on, allegedly to make non-South Indian members of the congregation feel more at home.
By the way, although my family is from a Smarta tradition, we do follow a lot of Vaishnava rituals too, including reciting Thiruppavai, Thirupallandu, etc. In case you were wondering why I was asking all these questions….
Remi
You make good points. I can’t explain away some of the egregious things done in the name of punjabi/jatt culture, nor do I want to. generalizing a communities characteristics is basically a non-starter. To the extent I find some of the story (which it is mostly a “story” – mostly in the form of oral histories) to be inspiring and or in keeping with more universal ideals, I can explain that; Udham Singh is a historical figure of whom much is admirable; to the extent people need him to be “off their blood” in order to see that, that’s their issue. It actually goes counter to his conduct.
I was referencing the movement of many jatts to Sikhism; to the extent someone joined Sikhism drawn to its anti-caste nature, joining such a movement was a gesture against caste. I think that was probably mixed, some people joined half-heartedly or incompletely, and so caste oppression is on-going
What’s naivedhyam in Minneapolis? Chicken Fricasee? You betcha.
That was a joke, let’s just calm down why don’t we?
When you say “aarti” you mean the standard “sing-chant” jay jagadeesh hare? But I think the question is, is Veda Paraayana recited before thirupallande? after the naivedyam? In most Sri Vaishnava households, I haven’t heard of this.
The opinions of Brahmins have next to zero importance except to each other in Tamil Nadu so the taxonomical classification you provide, while very true in the insular world of Brahmins, is irrelevant to Tamil society as a whole. Non-Brahmins have their own caste hierarchy which is more important in daily life. In my land owning, high status community, we are born/enter adulthood/marry/die without any Vedic/Brahminic ritual. Same with Kodava (i.e. Coorgs), Bunts etc. This is beginning to change as we become brainwashed and adopt the N. Indian Khsatriya norm, but this is against our traditions. So Brahmins call us “sat-shudra”, but as I have stated before it doesn’t have any relevance to our actual historical role or present status in society. The funny thing is in lobbying for OBC status, which I agree with Brahmin commenters is ridiculous, these groups say “The Brahmins call us shudras, and shudras are OBC so we demand reservation”. This bogus argument based on the poor treatment of N. Indian Shudras does not hold water in Tamil Nadu but has been used successfully by some of these privileged groups in getting reclassified. p.s. I don’t mean to be harsh with any community here, my interest is sociological and I hope at least 50% of our generation’s offspring are “mixed”
lousiecypher:
This is not about reservations; its about ritual status within sampradeyams. It extends beyond beyong labelled shudras. I’ll give you another example – Tamil Non-Brahmins have no gothrams : Brahmanas of course trace their descent back to some rishi or another’ shudras usually say “Vishnu” or “Shiva” when asked in the temple – which is entirely meaningless. In contrast, Telegu Non-Brahmins do have gothrams. The question is, why didn’t Tamil Brahmins extend dvija status to other groups in the region? Certainly Telegu Brahmins did, as did Namboodiri Brahmins. Do any of the tensions particular to Tamils have something to do with this?
. So Brahmins call us “sat-shudra”
The sat shudra designation developed in the MOST Tamil of of Sampradeyams – among Shaiva Siddhantins. The protypical sat shudra is the Shaiva Vellalar or Pillai, who is a vegetarian and follows acharam rules very similar to Brahmins.
This is a good question. My guess is “No”, that we will have to look elsewhere for the source of the friction. I think being extended dvija status would be important in areas where warrior groups like Marathas had setup powerful kingdoms and wanted respect/intermarriage alliances with Kshatriya neighbors. In this scenario I think there is resentment in not being extended dvija status. In Tamil Nadu, vellalars and similar groups had always been the rulers and did not need sanction from Brahmins for a mandate to rule. I think the friction arose when the feudal system crumbled under the Brits and Brahmins extended their scholarship to Western studies and began to dominate colonial administration.
risible: just realized I didn’t answer your question. It is possible that vellalar patronage of non-Brahminic temples would have antagonized them, making them averse to extending “Kshatriyahood”…but I don’t think that designation had much “brand value” until recently. Ancient Tamils looked to SE Asia & Near East for trade partners, North & South were trading ideas rather than goods
louiecypher:
Thanks for your response.
Periyar no doubt exploited the situation when he made statements like “sudras are dasis” [slaves] – it was sort of farcical when applied to Gounders, Vellalas, Chettiars, Mudaliars, etc. It’s little known, but his attacks on Hinduism met with resistance from many non-Brahmin Shaivas as well, who called Self-Respect “crude and immoral.” While you are probably for the most part right, I think the matter of dvija-status must be seriously entertained as at least a contributing factor in the Tamil tensions. Rising literacy and English translations of dharmasastram literature, critiques by Christian missionaries, played a part in opening up the question to public dialogue. Tamil Shaivas responded by imagining a pure Tamil Shaivism – centered on the Tirumantiram and other Tamil texts, devoid of encroaching Brahmanic influence, which plays out to this day.
Yesterday, i read this in the Hindu: Tamil hymns in temple permitted
CUDDALORE: T. Pichandi, Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowments Commissioner, has passed an order permitting the devotees to recite hymns from Thevaram and Thiruvasagam in the Thiruchitrambalam Hall of Sri Nataraja temple at Chidambaram. The order was issued on April 30, 2007 following a representation made by the septuagenarian Saivite U. Arumughasamy about six months ago, seeking permission to recite Tamil hymns right in front of Thiruchitrambalam.
The Podhu Dikshitars, who are managing the affairs of the temple, had voiced strong opposition to any devotee getting on to Thiruchitrambalam, near the sanctum sanctorum to recite the hymns. The then Joint Commissioner of Mayiladuthurai in an order prohibited any devotee from getting access to Thiruchitrambalam for reciting hymns. Certain human rights organisations had taken up the cause of Mr. Arumughasamy saying that it was violative of the principal of equality.
So what are the conclusions? Is it possible to live life happily in the US without paying attention to caste or is it necessary for our spirituality and keeping connections with our culture?
I don’t think its ever been necessary for spirituality. As for social relations, those who want to maintain caste purity here will likely have a very difficult time doing so, since intermarriage is numerically very significant. Only insular communities who are able to exert social pressures from within will be able to do this. Who has been able to do this so far? Maybe some Patels jatis? Vancouver Jats? I don’t know… Hinduism will have to adapt, and it already is: Visitors from India find multi-deity temples a strange thing, but they are common here for obvious reasons. South Asian Muslims and Christians will drop caste sooner, and meld into their greater faith communities.
I’ll give it a try. Whatever caste’s origin, it no longer has utility in India or the US and whatever warm fuzzies we caste Hindus derive from its observances are outweighed by the misery it causes for Dalits. As many members of small communities decide to “marry out”, their less forward thinking compatriots will be forced to choose from an ever dwindling supply of mates and will give rise to a new race of baby “fishpeople” with gills who will continue to observe the ancient rites of their human ancestors in Lemuria under the sea
With his big bulging eyes and his dark brown skin Vivekananda was the very antithesis of a mongol, tartar or turk. When he lived in America over a century ago he was regularly mistaken for an african-american:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Vivekananda_a_Biography/Vedanta_in_America
“In America he was often taken to be a negro. One day, as he alighted from a train in a town where he was to deliver a lecture, he was given a welcome by the reception committee. The most prominent townspeople were all there. A negro porter came up to him and said that he had heard how one of his own people had become great and asked the privilege of shaking hands with him. Warmly the Swami shook his hand, saying ‘Thank you! Thank you, brother!’ He never resented being mistaken for a negro. It happened many times, especially in the South, that he was refused admittance to a hotel, a barber shop, or a restaurant, because of his dark skin. When the Swami related these incidents to a Western disciple, he was promptly asked why he did not tell people that he was not a negro but a Hindu. ‘What!’ the Swami replied indignantly. ‘Rise at the expense of another? I did not come to earth for that.’
A noble man indeed.
hahaha —- best post in a long time.
Beautiful anecdote about Vivekananda.
Ahem, I believe it was Shubash Bose who mentioned the Tartars and Mongols. Got confused.
risible and louie,
The four fold varna classification is meaningless in Tamil Nadu or Kerala for that matter. Only jaathis are relevant. The two jaathis, Iyers and Iyengars are the only ones that map themselves to the Brahmin varna. They considered everyone else in TN sudra, while the rest could care less. The Iyers and Iyengars were in the spiritual disciplines and were not politically powerful until their dominance in the civil service during British colonial rule starting in the late 1800s and early 1900s. That was the trigger for the Periyar and DK movement. With the rise of the Dravidian parties the Iyers and Iyengars don’t have political power anymore. Temple rituals are important for certain temples where Iyers and Iyengars are poosaris, but most temples in rural areas use pandarams and also involve animal sacrifice, where they have no role.
In TN except for the Iyers, Iyengars, some Saiva Vellalas and Nattukotai Chettiars and maybe a few other jaathis whose total population will not exceed more than 10%, everyone else is classified backward or SC, ST. This was the Dravidian parties way of increasing representation for the other communities and restricting the power of the so-called forward communities. For social status these claasifications of forward and backward don’t mean much. It is specific jaathis that dominate in specific areas of Tamil Nadu and money talks for anyone.
Jaathis are mostly irrelevant in Tamil communities abroad like Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Singapore and South Africa and will be irrelevant in the US as well except as identity markers of an historic nature if they choose to retain it and are not married out already. Jaath endogamy will be history in the US.
Jati: I know, that was the point I was making in my comments
We prefer the term “Kumari Kandam” around here.
The Tamil Brahmins themselves were considered untouchable by the even more orthodox Namboothiri Brahmins of Kerala, according to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namboothiris
“The caste system enforced by Namboothiris in Kerala was one of the most rigid in whole India. The rules of untouchability across various levels of castes,and sub castes also.they considered all other castes as shudra,and they practiced untouchabilty and “aiyitham” with their own lower subsects and with Tamil,konkani and other “paradesi” brahmins and their own blood related nair cousins. the regulation on the language used, the regulations on the dress, the regulations on the place of dwelling and also on the construction of the houses were either extreme form of caste rules or unheard of in other parts of India.
Vivekananda, a Hindu monk, famously declared Kerala “a lunatic asylum of castes”.
I am sure any non-hindu reading the posts here would extend Vivekananda’s description to all of India. It is a freaking casteist madhouse.
How twisted is that? Neither these “sanyasins” nor these “brahmins” are deserving of the title.
Typically devious casteist. As if you are unaware about Affirmative Action in America.
Considering that India has been such a backward, impoverished hellhole under upper caste domination, dont you think its time for a sea change?
Iyengars, at least non-Tamil Iyengars (yes there are Kannadiga and Andhra Iyengars) were not originally “brahmins” but a group who rejected the idea of caste and welcomed all converts, so I am told.
louie, Since you and risible were discussing this issue I addressed you both, that is all.
459 risible,
In Tamil Nadu, most people only mention the Nakshatram in the temples when doing the archanai, except Iyers an Iyengars, who also give their gothrams. This is the first I have heard about ‘Siva’ and ‘Vishnu’. Perhaps some communities do that, but I am not familiar with it. Many communities have something similar to gothram, that traces lineages using ‘pattapeyars’ ot kootams and such, and people with the same pattapeyars do not marry each other, but these are not used in temples during archanais.
jati:”The two jaathis, Iyers and Iyengars are the only ones that map themselves to the Brahmin varna. “
Madhwas as well.
iABD: “Iyengars, at least non-Tamil Iyengars (yes there are Kannadiga and Andhra Iyengars) were not originally “brahmins” but a group who rejected the idea of caste and welcomed all converts, so I am told.”
I believe this is true for Tengalai Iyengars. I think — and again, not 100% sure here — that Ramanuja accepted “converts” from lower castes and even other religions. The acnestors of some Hebbar Iyengars, for example, are rumored to be Jain or non-Brahmin converts who eventually came to follow a Tengalai sampradayam. This makes sense in some ways if you look at numbers; Tengalais far outnumber Vadagalais, which could be a result of historical mobility.
HMF: “Really? which ones. and which part of the Veda is recited? I’m well aquainted with Satagopan and Anbil, heavily involved with Ramanuja.org. Is this who you’re talking about. And isn’t it Friday night?”
Friday, Gidday. I am bending the time only. I have no idea which part of the Veda is recited, but based on further anecdotal evidence from friends and further web reading, I’m starting to think this is solely true in Vadagalai households or temples heavily influenced by Vadagalai people. (I’m purposefully avoiding your questions re: temples & people to retain some degree of anonymity). But I am a woman, what do I know about the Vedas. (ironic j/k)
PG #445,
Thanks, this sort-of answers my questions and sort of does not. Clearly people who believe that their caste doesn’t dictate their spirituality will answer as you did. My question really is – if you are an American and if you believe that your caste dictated your spirituality and connection to the past, then do you still believe that you can keep just the spirituality and enjoy a connection to the past without mentioning (or for your own reference) the caste of the family that you are born into?
Thanks, but this may not be a tight argument if there are people who don’t consider such converts fully Hindu (are there?). btw, ‘tup wit KSLQ, PG?
However, local customs and cultures are another topic, and that is where caste comes in.
Sorry that last line in my comment was not written by me. It was a quote and forgot to delete it.
In Tamil Nadu, most people only mention the Nakshatram in the temples when doing the archanai, except Iyers an Iyengars, who also give their gothrams.
This creates a very unecessary casteist distinction that does not prevail, say, in Kerala temples. Most temples here follow the practice of asking for gothrams as well.
This is the first I have heard about ‘Siva’ and ‘Vishnu’
Very common. If you want to tell Brahmanas and Non-Brahmanas apart, listen for gothrams in archanas.
I believe this is true for Tengalai Iyengars. I think — and again, not 100% sure here — that Ramanuja accepted “converts” from lower castes and even other religions.
Since Ramanuja was rumoured to have moved many Dalits into the caste, Smarthas have often said that Iyengars, particularly Tengalais, are really not Brahmins. Iyengars respond by calling this “smartha mischief.”
The Tamil Brahmins themselves were considered untouchable by the even more orthodox Namboothiri Brahmins of Kerala
The Namboodiris were so pollution conscious that they employed a Nair to walk ten feet ahead of them to make sure no Pulaya (not just an untouchable, but an unseeable) crossed their shadow. I think the Nair shouted out something like “Yo, Namboodiri a comin!” and everyone cleared away. Yes, they looked down on Tamil Brahmins, who they derisively referred to as “Swamis”, though they employed them frequently as cooks. Because they were so conscious, they are often referred to as the “brahmanas of brahmanas.”
Well, I’m not asking this to challenge you, I’m genuinely curious, my guess is its the Rg Veda staple “Agni Mile Purohitam”, and thats why I asked. And I know some peeps that run with Mani Varadarajan.
So when you get the chance, check back with your sources. Vadagalai is from Kanchi I believe, they tend to put more emphasis on direct experience, a more personal, specific form of prapatti. Their tamil vedam chanting tends to be more mellifluous and emotion-laden. But that’s what I know.
My question really is – if you are an American and if you believe that your caste dictated your spirituality and connection to the past, then do you still believe that you can keep just the spirituality and enjoy a connection to the past without mentioning (or for your own reference) the caste of the family that you are born into?
Kurma what’s been your experience converting from Christianity to Hinduism. Have you found other Hindus welcoming?
HMF, you know Mani, man! small world!
I’m amazed that no one has refuted or argued against this so far (except for Camille), especially given that there are a lot of people on this board.
Maitri, I had assumed earlier that your parents had been troubled by the existence of the caste system and that’s what you meant by saying that they left India
“Kurma, Brahmins were refugees of reverse casteism.” Maitri, I was stunned on seeing this. You state it like some kind of truth. Reverse casteism is definitely real. But to equate university reservations with reverse casteism is just not right. I think most people in India are well aware that not all Brahmins are fabulously wealthy. Many are also aware that some lived in grinding poverty. Consider this – there were many many people in India who lost out on opportunities because of many things. But the people who managed to make it out and go to the US are disproportionately upper caste and very disproportionately vegetarian. (to the extent that a lot of Westerners think Indian = vegetarian). There is something there about who had how much opportunity in India at that time. (not that they are to blame for that – I believe every human being has the right to do the very best they can for themselves).
Facts don’t change just because they were told to us by parents. At least, I know that my parents believe (or at least say to me) about their native area what they WANT to believe, not necessarily what is the truth (also, there are multiple ways to look at the truth). We can’t just take their word just because we have not been there and they have. What they think is very much open to argument. I think you can be skeptical and challenge your parents a little on this.
Milli, you are the one with explaining to do. In #371, you argue that Vadagalai Iyengar is not a caste and in #384, you seem to argue that it in fact, IS a caste.
Also, regarding your #370, indeed, what WOULD your relatives have to say? Would that make it right? and what would others in India have to say?
Sorry, incomplete sentence. I should have read “especially given that there a lot of people on this board who are very familiar with the situation in India and also about university reservations”
Amitabh, get ready! You are going to lose another opportunity.
Kurma: “Milli, you are the one with explaining to do. In #371, you argue that Vadagalai Iyengar is not a caste and in #384, you seem to argue that it in fact, IS a caste.”
I don’t think that I am contradicting myself at all, and at no point do I state that Vadagalai Iyengar is not a caste. What may be true is that I am very confused about what defines caste. I guess what I am starting to understand is the difference between what “Iyengar” means, in theory, vs. what the label actually communicates in Indian (or even US) society. In theory, I believe that anybody, regardless of birth, can follow Iyengar sampradayam; in reality, Iyengars exercise the same restrictions for themselves/against others that make them casteist — endogamy, exlusivity, etc.
By the way, Kurma, I would appreciate it if in the future, you would ask me politely to clarify my point instead of telling me that I have “explaining to do.” You seem to be offended by some of my comments, and if so, I apologize. It is the internet, though, and perhaps I am misinterpreting your tone. I don’t claim to be an expert on any of this. This thread has made me ask a LOT of questions — of myself, my parents — and again, I am very confused. In the end, whether Vadagalai Iyengar is a caste or not is not important — perhaps I initially made it more important, because it made me question my “classification” for a moment. I don’t really ever identify as a “Brahmin” but obviously I do specifically identify as a Vadagalai Iyengar; I guess in order to participate in this conversation I needed to establish what community I identify with, whether that is a caste or not.
With your other questions, I somehow feel if you are implying that I’m blindly following whatever some authority says is right (parents, for example, or people living in India). Anyone who knows me in real life would find that hilarious. I think my relatives would find it surprising that we are having a discussion about something they so blindly accept. I think they would tell me to spend my time thinking about better things. I think they would be shocked to hear stories of exogamy. No, obviously, that does not make it right. I think I ask a lot of questions, push my parents and relatives a LOT on questionable beliefs, and more importantly, am open to being questioned or challenged myself. If I relay something on this thread that they have told me, it’s just that — passing along what they have said. It doesn’t mean that I necessarily endorse it.
Prema – do you support the policy that a quota of all the underwear produced in India must be mandatorily distributed to non Brahmins? I believe this was the subject of a dramatic movie about the judicial system called “Pelican Briefs”.
HMF: Oh, I didn’t take your question as argumentative or anything — my comment re: being a woman was purely tongue in cheek. Honestly, most of what I personally learned about vadagalai and tengalai differences was from Mani Varadarajan’s V-T page (not ramanuja.org). My parents are good friends with Sadagopan uncle, Mani, and various people from all those websites and lists (bhakti, ramanuja, opiliappan, sundarasimham, etc.)
After a very long and painful conversation with my father (“stop asking questions and just wait till I am finished”/”I’m getting there but you have to listen to all of this first before I answer your question”/”No I won’t clarify now, I’ll do it all at the end”), this is what I managed to get. Sattumurai order, which should be performed in this manner but perhaps isn’t due to lack of knowledge (according to dad):
My dad was firm in saying that sattumurai begins with Veda recitation (for males) and should be this way at every Vaishnava temple, including, for example, Sri Rangam, Pittsburgh, Pomona, and Aurora.
See, from my experience, we’ve always started at step 4 and moved forward.
It can’t be the reciting of the entire mahanarayana, that starts out “ambasya pare…” that would take too long, it must be an abridged version, or just the first couple of verses.
Aurora, I think is the Chicago temple? Pomona is hardcore, they don’t mess around up there. You either keep it real or hit the bricks. I knew some other peeps that ran with Venkat Kanumalla from back in the day. It wouldnt be surprising if we’ve crossed paths at some point. But I’s with you on that whole anonymity thing.
I agree. I have absolute, complete, withering contempt for everybody, although I am willing to let others shine my boots, and so on. This is why everybody worships me as a Man among men.
We beat Brian Lara’s test record when we broke 400. People, after this post, we will need only 13 more to break his first class record. Soldier on!
Hi Milli,
Sorry, I should have drawn a line or something in my comment. The portion addressed to you is only after the word “Milli”, i.e., only the last two lines or so. As for “explaining”, I was just playing off the ‘splaining line of yours in #384. Friendly banter, if you will. The ‘net is indeed deaf to tone. I’m not an aggressive person IRL and have no interest in being so online. In fact, I stop reading threads that degenerate into shouting matches. So I ask for the benefit of the doubt if you see things like this in my comments in the future.
Regarding your first paragraph, may I conclude then that you believe that it is POSSIBLE for an American Hindu to not pay any attention to their or another’s caste and be fully Hindu. I have stated that that is my belief.
As to the last paragraph of your #484, it was addressed to Maitri, so nothing was implied about you. Just so Maitri is not offended, let me clarify that I’m not taking about taking ideology straight from someone else (I’m not assuming that about anybody here as I think it’s quite unlikely that they will get here or are interested in sticking around on SM very much.) However, on FACTS, we all tend to accept what a trusted member of our circle told us if we are not present to verify it directly (reverse casteism in India for instance).
I’m just cautioning to be mindful that while our parents wouldn’t be lying to us, what they consider to be true may be be just their own take on the reality of wherever. For instance, Maitri might not have had an opportunity to speak to a scheduled caste person of her parents’ generation. They might not consider it self evident that “Brahmins were refugees of reverse casteism”. Again, there’s a good chance there’s a finer shade of meaning to what Maitri said than what is apparent. If so, I hope she comes back to clarify.
That comment by Prema appears to be a bit harshly exagerated.
This one by Milli though perhaps shows a clear picture of gender dynamics within, or over and above, caste. How gender roles play out through caste and vice versa is something to be examined…..
In Tamil Nadu, most people only mention the Nakshatram in the temples when doing the archanai, except Iyers an Iyengars, who also give their gothrams
Not to pick nits, but this is not entirely true. People outside the Tambram community do have gothrams, and often provide them when doing archanais. Aside from Siva gotram and Vishnu gotram, I’ve heard people use the names of flowers, other temples, etc. as their gothram names, in place of the pravara rishis the Brahmins use. In the end, a gotram is merely a very broad “family identifier” and I don’t see anything particularly casteist about this practice.
Of course, if you want to find it, you can find caste discrimination in practically everything.
HMF:
I think I misspoke earlier. At the local temple, Thirupallandu comes after the veda parayanam, and deeparadhanai, but before naivedhyam. This may not be standard, and may have something to do with efficiency. And yes, “aarti” means “Jai Jagdish Hare” (doesn’t it always?).
475 milli,
Madhwas or very tiny in number in Tamil Nadu and trace their origins to Udupi in Tulu Nadu and mostly migrated during Maratha rule in Thanjavur and later. I am not sure if they consider Tamil their mother tongue or still speak Tulu or Kannadam.
478 risible,
That distinction exists, since only those with gothrams mention them during archanai, whether it is requested or not. I am not sure how that affects the archanai.
I’ve heard people use the names of flowers, other temples, etc. as their gothram names, in place of the pravara rishis the Brahmins use. In the end, a gotram is merely a very broad “family identifier” and I don’t see anything particularly casteist about this practice.
They are improvisations, whereas Brahmin gothrams are allegedly from rishis –it is a clear way of telling who is who.
Of course, if you want to find it, you can find caste discrimination in practically everything.
You can just as easily rationalize everything away as harmless 🙂 You should ask some non-Brahmins how they feel about this outside the temple. I know some who refuse to go to American temples because they find the gothra business completely offputting. Why is the birthstar (nakshatram) not enough?
My dad was firm in saying that sattumurai begins with Veda recitation (for males)
Its both gender AND caste. Shudras are not supposed to utter the Vedas. Of course nowadays one hears the holy of holy Gayatri mantra chanted in Bollywood numbers, but orthodoxy still tries to adhere to the old strictures.
You can just as easily rationalize everything away as harmless 🙂 You should ask some non-Brahmins how they feel about this outside the temple.
I’m not really rationalizing. Rather, I think the gothram based on pravara rishis is relatively innocuous compared to other things that non-Brahmins can legitimately complain about. For example, if caste is of no relevance in America, how come most temple priests in the US are Brahmin? Isn’t that more important than the fact that Brahmins identify themselves as descended from a particular rishi?
The gothram has little value, other than to prevent endogamy within the same gothram (and even that’s not strictly adhered to. I have several family members who married people of the same gothram). My understanding is that non-Brahmin communities use their “kootams” in the same way.
I’m not really rationalizing. Rather, I think the gothram based on pravara rishis is relatively innocuous compared to other things that non-Brahmins can legitimately complain about. For example, if caste is of no relevance in America, how come most temple priests in the US are Brahmin?
I agree. But that takes time, finding archakas trained in the correct agamas, overcoming traditionalists on temple committees, etc. The gothra business is a clear assertion of caste difference, even if you consider it harmsless, and its easily stopped. Every human is born with a nakshatra — that could just as easily be used, or even a family name.
492 hema,
I don’t have any issues with this or consider it ‘casteist. It just so happens that the majority in Tamil Nadu don’t have gothrams and don’t use them during archanai, that’s all. risible thought that this caused casteist distinction. My question is, so what, will the kurukal doing the archanai be partial to ones with certain gothrams and enunciate better or say the archanai with gusto and feeling and skip a few lines for those without gothram:)
I am not a Brahmin and when asked, say no gothram. Was surprised that this is asked in American temples the few times I did archanai to please the wife. It does not bother me, though.
500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!