I think I found this after reading an email sent out on the ASATA listserv; it asked for participants for a survey on caste and Sikhism. Since I’m interested in both, I decided to take a quick look. The first notes wafted tentatively through my iBook’s wee speakers and I smiled: Van Halen. I knew exactly what kind of video this would be. We used to make ones just like it for JSA‘s Fall and Spring “State”, usually to open the conference. Well, it was either that or we’d blare Public Enemy‘s “Fight the Power“…
After watching it, I was moved, because I felt like so much of it was applicable to all of us, not just Sikhs. Someone Malayalee needs to make one of these, stat, I muttered…and then I realized that they didn’t. Maybe they should just watch this, I thought and that’s when I knew it belonged here, in a space where it would get the attention it rightly deserves.
Ravidasia // Khatri // Jatt // Tarkhan…The labels that divide us are endless. Caste, gender, class, and power tear apart our Qaum, our Gurdwaras, and our Pariwars. How do we overcome? How do we forge unity without silencing voices? [Jakara]
My closest friend in college was a Sikh girl from Fremont, who happened to be Tarkhan. My boyfriend from Freshman through Junior year was Jatt. So were all of his friends. They made fun of her when she wasn’t around and ignored her when she was. This baffled coconut-flavored me. “Why are you so mean to her?” I’d ask him, over and over. “She’s nice.”
“Because she’s…Tarkhan. They’re lower class. And so backwards– didn’t you say her parents tried to get her married when she was 17, that they didn’t even want to send her to college? Who the hell does that?”
“That’s not her fault, why are you taking it out on her?”
“Look, it’s a Sikh thing…it’s probably difficult to understand. Don’t you have a sorority thing to go to?”
::
I’m amazed at how often caste shows up on our comment threads, among second gen kids who should know better. Then I am humbled as I remember that I’m complicit in this too, when I tease my best friend about doing TamBrahm stuff or when I embroider stories from bygone UC Davis days with an extra adjective which probably isn’t necessary:
“Well a lot of students were from the Central Valley or Yuba City…so a good number of the desis I befriended were Jatt Sikh.”
It’s so insidious, the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?
If Sikhs are infected with castesim it just shows how entrenched it is in Indian culture — 500 years of a relatively progressive religion which rejects caste explicitly and it still persists. How depressing. I have been asked my caste at mandirs in London and Leicester.
Red Snapper, I agree with you in general but I do have a problem with your use of the term “entrenched.” It suggests a permanent unchanging caste system which certainly has not been the case. I believe that much of what we sometimes refer to as the “traditional” caste system is really a product of the nineteenth century.
Aniruddha,
Whats your opinion on Nicholas Dirks “Castes of Mind: Colonialism and the Making of Modern India”?
I think they did a great job with the video– parts of it were funny, parts were thought-provoking. Good stuff.
Well Aniuruddha it feels entrenched when it even rears its head in otherwise cosmopolitan settings — and when it is practised to a greater or lesser extent even by Indians from religions that reject it, like Sikhs, Hindus and even some Muslims, it shows that it just can’t be described as a Hindu problem.
When I was asked what my caste was at two different mandirs, I felt rage and disgust at my religion.
Last time I checked sikhism is caste free. Yet caste has become very important to many punjabi sikh’s. That is something I have never understood.
It was only a couple years ago that I found out what the word jatt means[ I’m 30 now]. Before that it was some word that I always saw in sikh marriage ads.
I come from a jatt background yet in my family is was something that no one ever talked about. But in many other punjabi familes being a jatt is the most important thing they have in there life.
First time posting in the comment section, I am so excited.
Something that I hear alot of youths, especially Punjabi youths say is that being Jatt doesnt mean its a caste and that they treat it as their own special ethnic community, which seems like a cop out to me. Contemporary Punjabi culture, the music, the movies itself glorifies the ideal of a the tall Jatt man in a black kurta pajama with a revolver, Punjabi kids eat that up and love feeling superior. Thats what I have observed atleast.
Purush, Never read it – except for a bizzare rant that he goes on against the Cambridge School of South Asian history. I did read his new book Scandal of Empire tho. Pretty dissapointing.
Red Snapper, Either this cosmopolitan stuff is not all that it is made out to be or it is encompassing those spaces where it earlier did not encroach upon – thereby mixing with caste. Maybe this is the new face of cosmopolitan modernity – getting asked your caste the next time one visits a nightclub.
Correction — “like Sikhs, Christians and Muslims, it shows that it just can’t be described as a Hindu problem.”
This is the exact question I asked my relatives just last week when I was in India. Me being single, they were trying to “find” a girl for me who belongs to a very specific background, a telugu speaking telangana (region in andhra, also a dialect of telugu) pakanati (subcaste) reddy (caste) girl who is an engineer(?). I dont even want to get into the reasons that they’ve given me for wanting someone with that specific requirement, they were just extremely silly, such as this one “the rituals which are performed during a wedding ceremony amongst the other reddies are very different from ours, we dont want to be following those”. There are millions of such reasons, discriminating down to the sub caste is alive and well and thriving even in the metros. I think one of the primary reasons for such discrimination is that the “caste” is just one of the ways of trying to “figure out” someone’s personality, as an indicator of thier lifestyle/upbringing/socio economic status/customs etc.
I don’t know much about punjabi music. But for some reason alot of punjabi songs the word “Jatt” is a very popular word, and alot of songs titles have the word jatt in it.
But for some reason I don’t thinks there are many punjabi song about being a from the Khatri caste
Caste at some level can form part of people’s identity. If someone’s been raised to view their caste favorably, and if it has allowed them to feel better than others around them, it will be very hard for anyone to get rid of it. That person probably has no desire or incentive to get rid of it. Unless they are committed to that cause out of sheer principle or religious belief. But things change for other reasons…as people become more westernised, and marriage choices become more free. I personally think that in a generation or so, urban middle and upper class India will shed caste to a very large extent (although the dalit/non-dalit distinction will probably remain for a while). Urban poor, as well as rural populations in general, may take another 2 generations to see significant reductions in caste behavior.
So you don’t think it’s an entrenched problem Aniruddha? I really don’t see the point that you’re makin. So you’re saying it was an artifical construct that appeared at a certain time in the nineteenth century, before which there was nothing like it? So what about all those men like Ravi Das, Kabir and Nanak who wrote about and preached against the iniquities of caste 500 years ago? It is entrenched to varying levels — that’s why it doesnt go away.
Perhaps it all started out as a means of self identity? It is base human behavior to aggregate amongst people that we identify with. It is true across cultures and geography. I always smile when I see brown amongst non browns. May be it is the knowledge of a shared heritage. I share my wedding pictures with people and feel specially thrilled when someone can actually understand or relate to some of the rituals.
But I am unable to understand the extremes to which people go to maintain their cultural identity which probably is the point of the post here.
clueless,
I think it ties back to the fact that the ideal of the Jatt super man is engrained in the mind of alot of Punjabi youths. I guess they area appealing to their target demographic, I know when a song with the word Jatt is played at any type of Punjabi function the dance floor is filled with kids yelling their Bruah’s. Something ironic is the fact that the most famous singer’s of the “Jatt Pride” songs are not Jatt themselves, but know how to exploit the word to get rich. Surinder Shinda’s Putt Jattan De song would be a good examples.
On a related note I found a song once on youtube glorifying Punjabi Rajputs, it was pretty interesting.
I agree that it’s breaking down Amitabh, especially in the West, but some still cling to it. Your point about it making them feel better than other people, well, I just call that what it is, a form of supremacist thinking. Listening to some people speak about their caste ‘pride’ is like hanging out with members of the Aryan Nation, all that mythologising about the purity and superiority of their ‘line’, where their ancestors come from, all that laughable bollocks. (Laughable to normal people, they actually take it very seriously and get offended should you point out the reality of their attitude)
Red Snapper, Not quite – caste was surely around before the nineteenth century but operated in very different forms. What I’m arguing is that caste is a very fluid concept and changes with time. Amitabh’s very hopeful post will surely not happen. As India modernizes/westernizes or becomes more cosmopolitan so will casteism. As a few of the posts have noted – even Bhangra pop – the ultimate in Indian modernity is affected by caste.
Anna, thanks for this post – and props to the people behind that video.
I don’t think I really knew about ‘caste’ until I went to England when I was 15 and I was “educated” by people there about the caste I’m from and how it’s the “best.” It was pathetic and I wish I had never heard it. It wasn’t discussed at home but after that day I felt like I heard about it everywhere. I want to yell every time I hear a relative or family friend say the word “jatt” in a demeaning way. Do we really need to label people in that way? I can yell at my own parents if they ever introduce this word, but I can’t yell at the countless other aunties and uncles who include it in their regular vocabulary. It makes me want to scream, but I refrain.
But even more disgusting than that is the widespread acknowledgement of this caste sytem by people from my generation. Haven’t we learned anything? Why are we adopting these backward concepts? Shouldn’t being raised in the US/Canada/UK at least teach us to question practices? I know my dad has had to field hundreds of questions over the years from me about being Sikh and being Punjabi. I can’t imagine how others like me don’t question the caste system and instead embrace it and even flaunt it.
When I recently saw people in my Facebook network joining groups related to the caste system, I wanted to throw up. I wanted to delete them as my friend. “Proud Bhappas” – seriously? Are you so jealous of all the “Jatt Pride” that you need to now find something to feel “proud” of? It’s disgusting. I hope to raise my children in an environment where they never have to hear about the caste system and don’t have pre-conceived notions of people based on it. But I don’t see that happening if people continue to keep it alive.
Ok I should stop before my low blood pressure becomes high =)
What were the other forms it operated in before the 19th Century Aniruddha? Would be interested to know. Either way, almost as far back as we can see into the Indian past it has been present, that makes it pretty entrenched, regardless of the fluidity of its forms.
Modernity breaks this down of course — because you cannot survive and prosper with those attitudes. Not in the West, and I suppose, increasingly, not in the future Indian city.
Does anyone know how caste plays out in Trinidad / Guyana? Has it broken down, changed? I ask because they’ve been around longer in the diaspora than the rest of us, how has it persisted, what forms has it taken? Naipaul writes that in his time, growing up, it was still strong in Port of Spain.
i think this problem, as with 90% of other problems in desi community, lies in our people not getting laid enough. i don’t think happy people bother trying to make others unhappy based on some disturbed, ancient, ridiculous third world traditions….i am a jatt and i would much rather marry a darker, more even skinned girl than a hairy, sun-deprived, baggy clothes-wearing one who is jatt….though i am sure my parents would object……i am 99% sure vikram is not jatt either…..maybe u think im trashing jatts casue im not one; trust me i am….i too would be a tractor driving, alcoholic, loud burping, no toilet paper using, no shower taking, no deodrant wearing jatt from the pind if my pops hadn’t been successful in getting his visa in 1969.
Has anybody been on the message board of websites like Jattworld and other Jatt websites. Some of the stuff there is kind of stuff you would see on a white supremists website. Most of those people on there websites are western born.
Great post Sonia, Caste on Facebook – I don’t think it is possible for us to be modern Indians, even here in the diaspora without being aware of our castes, and even being casteist.
I quite agree with some of #13 that an upbringing plays an important role in deciding whether a person relates to his/her caste or not. A home atmosphere where a kid grows up being quite aware of his caste may end up feeling a certain way about it and then wont be able to get around it as easily even if his surroundings once he leaves home might be such that caste wont matter in any way. In such a case he/she will instead seek out other people of his caste. That may explain why even ABDs relate to their castes so many times. On the other hand if a kid grows up being unaware of the role of caste in his/her life he/she should find it a lot easier to not really care about it. Of course as mentioned in #13, a person can get around his caste prejudices on sheer principles but then how many people are like that. The solution is to bring up kids making them realize that while caste does exist (not a good idea to be in denial since it’s so in your face at times thanks to morons out there) it should not define any aspect of their lives or personality. That again is easier said than done since parents can’t help but impart some of their prejudices to their kids.
If the caste discrimination did in fact become a big taboo issue then maybe there would be some hope. However while it is taboo to an extent, the fact that brings with it associations of a cultural identity have so far not allowed it to disappear completely and people still quite easily ask ones caste. Looking at the realities in India even today, I am not sure if it’s going to be reasonably gone anytime soon.
Red Snapper, I know very little about pre Modern casteism. Brahmins were a lot less powerful – because pre-colonial ruling communities were generally rivals of Brahmins. Some evidence also suggests that women’s sexuality was less controlled – lower castes typically restrict female sexuality less than upper castes – and since Brahmins were less powerfull their take on female sexuality was less acceptable amongst other castes.
Dear aspiring trolls, Please don’t do that thing you do so well for at least another hour (when I get out of class), as I have much I’d like to add and would not appreciate seeing this thread shut down. Everyone else, please carry on.
it matters to us because it matters to our parents or grandparents. because ideas like the importance of the caste system and the superiority of one group over another, get passed down through generations. caste continues to matter to my grandmother who has 3 white daughter-in-laws, 5 mixed grandchildren, and who lived in western countries for 25 years. it matters to her so much, that she thinks, i, one of her mixed grandchildren, should marry a tambrahm, specifically and iyengar (to which my mother says “why, you’re already impure anyway”).
I totally agree. What is disturbing is that there are caste affiliated societies in the US which have youth movements run by 2nd gens.
the way this need to inform others of where we are in some dated hierarchy persists. Right now, we need to ask ourselves…why?
on the basal psychological level it seems obvious that it is is ‘free status’ which you don’t have to work for. i.e., i will predict that the expectation of ‘caste dropping’ increases proportionally with lack of success or attainment in one’s life, all things controlled. in some ways caste is a human thing, how many white people talk about their descent from the ‘king of france’ and stupid shit like that?* the only thing i would say though is that contrary to people to ‘caste drop’ think, i suspect most people assume that if you have to babble on about your ancestors there really isn’t much there in you as an individual. or at least, not as much as you want to be there.
how about the tromentators?
Reading the various posts above leads me to make one general observation. Caste like race, religion and nationalism, etc, is an exclusive identity. Of course there are important differences (nationalism being a super-identity encompassing some of the others), but lets also note the similarities, which are evident form a lot of posts above (the appeal to “pride”, denigration of the “other” etc.). Therefore as we condemn caste, we must also remember that other identities can be just as pernicious (perhaps more so, in case of nationalism, for instance). Now back to our discussion.
I am constantly bewildered by the fact that some 2nd gen’ers seem not only conscious of caste distinctions, but actually believe in (or rely on) them.
I think caste mattered to our grandparents (and probably our parents) because it defined their social mores, their manner of speech, their culinary traditions, their marriage customs, etc. But most South Asians raised in a more westernized setting are much more influenced by their local culture than by their caste culture. So to hold on to that caste identifier seems more than a little strange.
I’m confused about this Jatt thing. Are all farmers Jatt? Or are Jatts specific to a region? I met someone Jatt once, and a Sri Lankan friend told me the Jatts were the farmers near Haryana. Is the ‘Jatt Pride’ thing a kind of proletarian, working-man snobbery? Or does it have deep roots in a regional/religious hierarchy?
You are way too optimistic Hema – caste didn’t matter because of cuisine – it mattered because it made a difference if you got a job or not – it made a difference whether you could drink water at someone’s house – or whether you got tortured for overhearing a Brahmin mumbling his prayers. The same is true today. Your life depends on your caste.
To some degree, they still hold somewhat. I know some 2nd gen folks that refer to caste, but not as a superior/inferior thing rather a “this person will work well in my family, as they are familiar with x,y,z traditions.”
Now, if those traditions aren’t worth a muskrats ass to you anyway, then sure caste may not be a characteristic taken into account.
Thanks for sharing that, Asha.
I have a semi-unrelated question for the group. I noticed that Red Snapper mentioned being asked about caste at a Mandir. Does this mean that not just anyone can go? My dad was raised Hindu, but I’m mixed and I’ve always wanted to go visit a temple. I went to a couple in India as a kid, but I’ve never been to one in the states or as an adult. Is there some sort of restriction? Is there a guide somewhere where I can find out how I am supposed to dress, what I am supposed to do, if I will be restricted from certain parts, if I can bring a guest, general protocol? Anybody have any tips on this? Thanks.
I am constantly bewildered by the fact that some 2nd gen’ers seem not only conscious of caste distinctions, but actually believe in (or rely on) them.
same. also, let me state that taking pride in one’s ancestors and religion, etc. can be a natural thing, and i don’t think it is always harmful (i am not one of those myself because i dislike islam and so on). that being said, it can become pernicious, and we all know what that line is. some people are annoying and irritating, talking about their origins all the time (kind of like i had a jewish friend who i told to shut the fuck up after she jabbered on about how they were the Chosen People for the 1000th time-she, being a born again jew to speak). but i’ve read stories about other bizarro stuff, like in the UK where brown patrons refuse to take change from clerks who were untouchable in brownland. that is really, really, repulsive and primitive.
Uh try this at my age. I have honestly never dealt with this question till now, now at this point in my life when I’m meeting boyfriend’s extended family am I getting asked about caste. And I have come too far and have too much pride to break down and ask my parents now. I was never raised with it, hell I never heard anything in our specific family. I’ve heard words thrown around when I was a kid like Kokanasta Brahman or CKP or Kshtriya but again never had any detailed conversation in my family. Now I admit I’ve also lived alone for a long time so have become isolated a bit from some of the specifics; for the longest time when I was a kid I used to think being Maharashtrian was a caste. Doh, that was wrong.
So recently I met an ‘extended’ aunt on his side who tried to speculate on my caste based on my skin color and eyes and what my mother looked like and our last name and a multiple other insane tangibles! I stood there completely flabbergasted while my MIL fumbled around with words to shut her up! People are truly pathetic with this stuff.
Maitreyi,
All farmers arent Jatt but most if not all Jatts come from agricultural family backgrounds. Most Jatts are in North India/Pakistan. Punjab, Haryana, UP, Uttranchal and the like. Most Jatts I believe though are Muslim and many still keep their Jatt clan names but I guess dont make such a big deal out of it as Sikh ones do. I think the Jatt pride thing has to do alot with the fact that they are proud of being farmers of the ‘breadbasket of India’ as people call Punjab (dont know how true that might be). Also the fact they were heavily recruited by the British and labeled a martial race. There are probably other factors too, I just know these two probably contribute alot.
SemiDesiMasala, anybody can go to a mandir where I come from, these were just casual enquiries from older individuals who frequented them, what upset me was why it mattered to them, and what that had to do with anything.
So recently I met an ‘extended’ aunt on his side who tried to speculate on my caste based on my skin color and eyes and what my mother looked like and our last name and a multiple other insane tangibles!
she might have caste, but she got no class 😉 sometimes it’s a zero sum world.
Red Snapper,
Thanks! And I’m sorry that people were being so nosey with you.
I struggled with going to the temple myself because I never know what the protocal is, am not religious and am usually going to appease a parental unit and am fearful of being singled out and ostracized. And I’m 100% Indian.
Honestly there is no protocal in the United States as far as I know. As long as you are respectful, dress conservatively, take off your shoes etc you should be fine. I know every single temple has different rules. The Ganesha temple in Flushing NY for example gets a lot of non Indians who come in to worship dressed in saris and traditional clothes but then it also gets desi people coming in to worship with tight jeans that ride down their butts as well.
From what I understand there are rules at some of the larger temples in India and quite a bit of the rules are ‘made up based on who it applies to’. And I don’t mean this in a scarcastic way but rather have heard too many stories from too many people and have personal experience with it hence the conclusion.
Do you think it would still matter to your Grandmother if she had 3 black daughter-in-laws? I ask this because I think there is an intersection between Caste and Colorism and half-gora grandkids have one huge thing going for them– usually they’re fair-skinned and if they’re not, they look desi, it’s often one or the other, sometimes both. I’ve heard this over and over– an Auntie in our social circle was gossiping about some family whose children had intermarried, one with someone white, one with someone black, the latter union just took place… “At least if she was a white, the children would look nice, have fair coloring etc…now they will be black. Poor ____. Coming to this country, only for that disappointment.”
Sure, why not. Reabsorb you in to the fold.
But what about those G2ers who DO use it as a put-down? I think this is far more ubiquitous than we realize or care to admit.
SDM — other people I know have the same kind of thing happened to them. It’s not like, what part of England are you from, it’s what is your father’s name? (code for what is your caste, although other times it’s been asked for straightforwardly) — as for visiting mandir, just go, dress modestly, take your shoes off and put them on the shoe rack, smile and ask people there what to do if you’re unsure, enjoy yourself.
Mandir’s are like churches – open to EVERYONE of any or no faith. Aren’t they?
Hi JOAT,
Thanks for the tips, I think I’ll give it a go.
some of you might know that in evolutionary psychology the researchers often say we have a “pleistocene mind.” that is, our cognitive toolkit is geared toward solving the problems that ice age hunter-gatherers faced, and that causes problems in the modern world. for example, credit card debt can be comprehended by the fact that long term projection of compounding interest really isn’t something many (most?) people intuitively “get.” more prosaically, many car accidents occur because our innate perception and reaction time is far too slow to keep up with the ability of the cars to accelerate and deccelerate. in some ways i think fixation on caste (or skin color) is like the brown version of the “pleistocene mind.” they had utility in brownland, but i think they are of marginal importance in the west (being a brahmin probably has some value toward non-browns just cuz it seems spiritual and elite, but it is a minor issue IMO). it makes sense that the 1st gen of brownz would keep up with the old habits, but the perpetuation in gen-2 is really, really, something that i thin is basically a cultural maladaptation. like i said, ethnic, caste or religious identity in and of itself may not be pernicious, but some of the extreme fixations and relevances attributed to them (e.g., “don’t socialize with that person because of they are of low caste”) are really out of place and just cultural legacy which has little utility in the new circumstance.
Would be interesting to experiment going into a temple and telling people that you are a Dalit. I wonder how people will react.
SemiDesiMasala in #36
Just go dressed as you would to a coffee shop. You will need to remove your shoes, same as in India. And please do turn off your cell phone – the last time I was in one, this dude gets a call and ends up chatting on the phone inside the temple.