A tip about this photograph was posted on our News tab a few hours ago by “namantra” under the title Dehli ad on Metro. It was their description of the link which interested me:
The same country that often frowns down upon public displays of affection has billboards that openly use curse words.
I must say, I was slightly surprised to see one of my favorite blue words gettin’ dropped so blatantly, but I know nothing about advertising in the Motherland. Does this ad signal a coarsening of Indian culture? Or did it not raise the threaded eyebrows of those of you who are familiar with such things? And are we comparing jack fruit with ambarellas; does one have nothing to do with the other?
On this one, I think # 89 did get some of it right. I really appreciate this site because it has helped me become more aware of my own status here in the USA as a minority brown person.I appreciate all the purely voluntary time and effort that all the mutineers put in and know that its not at all easy to put yourself and your writing out there for the world to see and comment on. However, at times, I do feel that a kind of patronizing air does creep into the comments here specially the ones directed to FOBs – a term I also abhor but seems to be the only one for the class of persons like me who lived a major part of their lives in the des before moving here.Can/should anything be done about this? I say “No” because the alternate is not to write about matters desi at all which defeats the very noble purpose of this blog.
Part of the issue , I think, is that we all forget that 1:1 comparisons between the US and India are fair to neither. The US has had 300+ years of existence as an independent,fucntioning democracy – the idea of India as a democracy is only 60 years old. The US is fairly homogenous ,in India the language, customs ,traditions change every few miles . Applying one society’s yardsticks for what is acceptable behavior/language to another society as-is does not work. And that’s why its inevitable that there will always be some posts that will create extreme reactions of all kinds.
89
I would agree with #92 to an extent. Yes, it is sometimes amusing to observe the confusions between the two cultures like in this post, but then it’s not like we the FOBs understand everything ABD either. Also to be fair to the SM writers, most of the India centric posts (as opposed to American south asian posts) on this blog do actually seem to make an attempt to understand more than judge and if once in a while a post does come out which seems a little condescending, we should keep in mind that it might simply be because of a loss in translation or could be an exception and not a norm.
You even admit that your comments might not be relevant to this post because its author so carefully qualified her inquiry.
Espressa: Clearly, you consider it unacceptable to offer any opinions that are not wholly directed at the post in question. I disagree, because the post in question, while by no means an exemplar of the kind of writing I was commenting on, was a close enough cousin (and yet different enough in that Anna explicitly phrased it as a question) to send me on the train of thought which drove me to post. Unless you intend to police my trains of thought, I don’t see how your point is germane to anything. Perhaps SM needs to have a section where people can comment on the blog as a whole, rather than on individual posts alone? I’m being mildly sarcastic here, because I don’t actually see how this is a big deal. I am making a point about SM in general, and this post made me want to do it. It made me want to do it because I understood what it was about it that was annoying certain other people, even if I didn’t think that this post was the worst example of the sort of thing they were talking about. I did think what they were talking about was worth exploring, whether in the context of this post, or more generally.
“There are no truths on this board, its all about reshaping ideas and if we got it wrong please do offer your perspective.”
Absolutely, and I did, and intend to continue to do so. Except that you don’t seem to like it when I do….or maybe I am misreading the tone of your response.
“But heavy-handed sweeping critiques, especially when they don’t really apply to the facts at issue, are not helpful.”
I’m sorry if you found what I wrote a ‘heavy-handed sweeping critique’, but in truth it was intended as a comment on a very specific kind of writing that I occasionally see on SM (and therefore, IMHO, not any more sweeping than warranted, though this is, of course, a matter of opinion). While on this point, how come it’s okay for people to make ‘sweeping generalizations’ about everything from India to Indian mores to attitudes about sexuality to the level of street-smarts of Indian advertizing execs, and not for anyone to draw general conclusions from the posts on this site?
As for ‘affirming the tenor of #74’ – I said as much. From a cursory look at his blog, #74 strikes me as a loon, but that doesn’t mean s/he is incapable of sometimes saying something that others like myself, who do not share his/her general worldview, may agree with. Your argument seems to suggest that there’s something inherently wrong with agreeing with any or all of what a person with generally unpalatable opinions says, whereas I was pointing out that even such a person could make valid points, which should be debated/discussed on their own merits, and not by the sort of juvenile argument you seem to implicitly make, along the lines of ‘Oh, look, he’s a [[[insert name of groups having generally unpalatable views]]] type, hence everything he says must be … BULLSHIT’
I love how it seems to be possible to end every comment with BULLSHIT. 🙂
@Floridian:
“When I am in India, I read ads voraciously, perhaps some created by you.” You’d have to be mighty lucky or stalking me to do that. Most of my stuff (the ones I can be proud of, at least) are either out of circulation, or not yet in circ, or very local in nature. Except one piece – which’s like doing the rounds in an email forward.
“The changes over the decades are dramatic.” Oh boy! That only about begins the story.
“You guys still use Rosser Reeves’s USP a lot?” USP is still practiced, but nobody gives Mr. Reeves any credit. Work these days tends towards ‘humour’ of the rural India sort. Kinda getting a little difficult.
“Somehow this theory, practiced everyday in the US consciously or unconsciously, is never referred to it as such.” Likewise.
“What are the national accounts based in Chennai?” Not many, unfortunately. Club Mahindra is one, on which I did some kind of work for a year. A bank or two, couple of car companies, and some retail folks. Most work gets into Bangalore these days.
Cultural relativism, people. That’s what both sides here are trying to get at.
I imagine that what got the IBCDs (is that a standard acronym?), including me, a little worked up was the title and first line of the post, which definitely comes of as contemptuous and ethnocentric. But aren’t the best of us prone to that at times? And as long as Anna clarified her view in the rest of the post and comments, why continue to harp on it?
One has to wonder about the reason for these erotic carvings depicting various sex acts. I strongly suspect that they were meant to advertise the sexual services available in the Temple grounds. After all Temple prostitution, aka Devadasism, has a hoary history in brahminism.
I acknowledge someol’guy’s eloquent and persuasively-stated opinion, and also his tenacious, but polite defence of the same. Where I differ, and this is not a minor point – is in his assumption that anyone truly can ‘get’ India. To be sure, he acknowledges that accident of birth is nothing to feel superior or inferior about – but I go further and say, that on most issues that SM blogs about, accident of birth really confers very little advantage whatsoever.
And on the subset of issues that move Anna to blog – she fully turns whatever little advantage there might be, completely around. Her bicultural perspective has phenomenal depth and resonance, and very little situational-subjectivity – though it is grounded in her mostly US-based experience. That said, I initially thought this whole “bullshit thing” was so, like, totally unbloggable. But, like Seinfeld’s show about ‘nothing’, we’ve managed to have a really interesting discussion, overall. And this is where I see the genius of SM and its bloggers – in keeping the absolute bullshit out, letting some of the relative bullshit stay in the interest of stimulating discussion, and thus in this case, managing also to have an interesting discussion about ‘bullshit’ 🙂
As a side point, I would add that, in addition to de-centering (or de-privileging) the situational advantage, both of India-based observers and the MSM – this blog is empowering the (wo)man on the street, both to express and sway opinion, and to initiate coverage of events and issues, and show us things that otherwise don’t get talked about, or that are completely subverted through biased reportage. This picture could well have been uploaded straight from the cell-phone (‘mobile’) into the blogosphere, and probably was. Look out, MSM and academia – the era of the citizen-(photo)-
journalistblogger has only just begun!India is a country of extreme contrasts.
No PDAs between mutual lovers but non-mutual sexual harrassment “tolerated”.
No PDAs between lovers but grown men holding hands and walking in an arm-in-arm embrace right, left and center.
I came to the conclusion that the culture has issues with opposite gender and mutual touching only. Same gender touching is accepted and non-mutual touching (i.e. sexual harrassment) is tolerated.
Again, a generalization which applies to most of the small towns I’ve stayed in. Some urban centers and rural villages may be different and totally open to young lovers of opposite genders walking while hugging each other in the same way that these small towns are open to two men doing that.
No value judgement on those men. It’s understandable why they do it.
Speaking from years of experience as a “celibate”, there were times when I was also almost pushed to doing some pretty weird stuff too due to the repression of my natural human instincts.
In sex-segregated cultures that “marry off” their young early – like in their teens – you may not see the desire for human physical contact directed inward toward their own gender. But in sex-segregated cultures where marriage is delayed until the mid to late twenties (and dating is not allowed beforehand) — you see it.
India’s dating culture is still restricted to it’s urban centers.
Not true. Many tribals of India have a sexually liberated culture where teenage boys and girls “date” and have sex
(Because PG’s comment is too inflammatory to pass.)
America is a country of extreme contrasts.
No gay rights but non-mutual sexual harrassment “tolerated”.
Affection between same-sex close friends is restrained, but dating couples who barely know each other hold hands and walking in an arm-in-arm embrace right, left and center.
I came to the conclusion that the culture has issues with same gender touching only. Opposite gender touching is accepted and non-mutual touching (i.e. sexual harrassment) is tolerated.
Again, a generalization which applies to most of the small towns I’ve seen. Some urban centers and rural villages may be different and totally open to young lovers of the same gender walking while hugging each other in the same way that these small towns are open to two strangers of the different genders doing that.
No value judgement on those couples. It’s understandable why they do it.
America’s gay culture is still restricted to it’s urban centers.
kathkavi – good one 🙂
@ kathakavi: ROFL. thanks.
@chachaji: I actually agree completely with what you say about the impossilibity of anyone ever ‘getting India’, whatever their background. I’d go so far as to say that I don’t think anyone can ever totally ‘get’ anything, insofar as there is a single ‘it’ to get. which is why i did not at any point want to imply that background, or exposure, or any such characteristic, should prevent or empower the expression of opinions. nonetheless, while agreeing with you that nobody’s POV or opinion is perfect or flawless, I do think that it’s disingenuous to pretend that differences in what one’s experiences are do not influence the degree to which one is able to make sense of particular situations, cultural references, or settings. Thus, my point was essentially this: that it helps to understand and acknolwedge the limitations of our experiences, exposure, etc., while expressing our opinions about things. My objection, such as it is, to some of the content on SM, is that when dealing with things happening in Desiland, or concerning IBDs, Mutineers sometimes appear to me to forget that interpreting these things may not be where their comparative advantage lies. Coupled with the fact that this does not prevent them from being free with their opinions, and the tone of some of these, has led me in the past to have an uncomfortable feeling that some of them end up being condescending to IBDs/India/South Asia. I do think that some of this arises from lack of knowledge, exposure, etc., which is correlated with ABDness – not to say that there are NO ABDs who know more about these things than IBDs, or that all IBDs are necessarily better-informed than all ABDs, but merely that the averageABD on here is less likely to see all the context, or likely to see less of the context, than the average IBD on here (who still, to return to your point, may still not ‘get it entirely’
The general question of the attitude of ABDs to various things about India which embarrass, repulse, or otherwise disturb them is an interesting one, that is probably worth reflecting on. SM would be an interesting place for this to happen, if it were to be done with honesty and a willingness to look within, but I suspect that this might be too uncomfortable for many Mutineers to take on. I’d be happy to be proved wrong, though. In the meantime, I stand by my original expression of discomfort with some of the stuff on here, and something tells me I’m not the only one.
First of all, where’s that video?
I don’t think it’s anything so layered in the origin of this dichotomy. It’s because of this blog that I just picked up on there being a code still in existence that was cooked up by colonials regarding what is to be considered “obscene” and that is still being adhered to in Desh, as if it couldn’t be rethunk. Public “ear-waxing, nail clipping, teeth-brushing, tobacco spitting, shaving, defacating, spitting, urinating, bathing, and male masturbating”(note I’m leaving using foul-language, as I think that is not always entirely intended) must have escaped punishment somewhat the way drivers over here who go well over speed limits are ignored on highways where everyone is giving the speed limit a wide berth, and how are the cops going to ticket a hundred and fifty people all driving 15 mph over the limit? What was codified out of public view in India long ago is still under the same controls; what wasn’t codified out of sight, nobody can do anything about — it’s both too late and too early to change this– so long as there aren’t enough toilets and bathrooms and spitoons–and I’m not talking public toilets new– just not so many people living in city streets.
But like I said earlier, I’m with Jon Stewart on the Richard Gere-Shilpa Shetty thing. It was sexual harassment, far from any kind of kiss between lovers. I think the judge was using “erotic” to mean “pornographic” though.
Whatever comments were made after my #74 only prove my point about this being a blog of bigots. After spending some time reading Anna’s posts, I have come to the conclusion that they are inane and vapid at best. The female really has nothing to say. Its a travesty that her asinine posts are attracting so many comments. But like someone else pointed out, if nothing else, the post has led to the above discussion (if you can call it that). So yes, I do concede that there is some “exchange” of ideas (though most simply don’t seem to be listening or wanting to listen).
kathkavi, I almost dismissed you as a ABCD wannabe. You seemed to be trying too hard for acceptance from these bloggers. But the fact that you found PG’s comment to be “inflammatory” tells me that I may be mistaken. PG’s comment was not only inflammatory – it is what I call bigoted and racist (yes, racist). Its like a white Sahib pointing his finger at an Indian coolie and saying,”That man eats his food with his hand – how disgusting.” Its ironic that this blog is named Sepia Mutiny. I wonder how many ABCDs who read this blog know what it is. “Some fancy Indian term. Like Garba or Samosa or insert perverted, Americanized pronunciation of a beautiful sanskrit name here ” (and read with a fake American accent). But yes, I readily admit that there is nothing balanced about my blog or my head for that matter.
someol’guy, thanks for the “loony” complement. So there is consensus here about my “loonyness” and thats something :). I think you are putting up a gallant fight…but we all know how this exchange will end (if it has not already ended). And btw, the term that you are looking for is “ad hominem”. But I am not a big fan of deductive logic (as kathkavi will readily attest).
As to why I come here, well, I hardly do. I come here once in a blue moon and I don’t really know why. Maybe its the colour of your feathers. Or maybe I come here because I have trouble understanding a very simple thing – how can there not be even a single sensible person in this crowd. I mean, look at them. All of them are juveniles from Kentucky hills.
Hypocrisy? I didn’t know nations were required to be internally consistent. They contain multitudes, don’t they?
Speaking of Delhi (are we still speaking of Delhi?) I suggest anyone who understands Punjabi watch the following video. I just learned of it today, and I don’t endorse the views expressed, but it’s the most political Punjabi song I’ve ever heard (other than ‘AK 47’ from a Tigerstyle mixtape).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=V2XKGrJZ0nU
That’s rich. “Bigot” is your favorite word to hurl incorrectly, which is shocking since you are such a huge one.
I love the smell of misogyny in the morning.
And by the way, the “female” who is so vapid is the one who named this blog. The bloggers here know what the term refers to, but you would know that if you RTFFAQ. But why would you do that? It would take away from your precious trolling time, you anti-semitic coward. On second thought, keep spewing the products of your “mental illness”, it’s like you’re scoring goals against your own team.
If pointing out that difference in perspective in not tantamount to ignorance or prejudice makes one wannabeish or a sucker-up… ok, sure. I can see how the author of a blog like yours would say that.
And you didn’t get around to explaining why you are in the US, getting paid in dollars, educating yourself in a Western institution, and spewing rubbish about everything not Indian. You’re a very rude guest.
Ennis, can we hit the troll now please? Please?
PLEASE?
WTH! You have any reasons/studies/etc for your ‘strong suspicion’ or are we just taking shots in the dark? I tried digging up a little on this and found this
Anna, we had a disagreement a long while ago (dunno if you remember). I didn’t know the history of this blog back then and also had no idea of the kind of blatant misogyny that exists on the Web, else I would have kept shut that day. To be honest, I am not a v great fan of your posts, they are slightly too personal for me, but there’s nothing you have done to deserve the kind of disgusting trollery and personal attacks you regularly get. I deeply empathize with you: here’s hoping you keep blogging despite all this…bullshit 🙂 .
PG(#108), your comment is more telling of American homophobia than it is of India. I guess Borat had a point after all.
My male friends and I hug whenever we meet. I used to do it when I was single, and also now that I have a girlfriend, so no longer weird due to ‘suppression of my natural human instincts’. Though of course we’d never do it in a public place in the US, cos Americans are too stuck up.
As for the word bullshit, even my mom uses it, and its pretty much the only cuss word she allows herself. Everything that’s taboo in the US doesn’t have to be taboo in India. India has 350 million english speakers: quite enough to let us make our own rules.
kathkavi, you really are an ABCD wannabe. You are hanging around these abusive ABCDs like a good dog. It is also possible that you are one of those FOB parents of ABCD offspring. I guess FOBs like you are so overwhelmed by “gratitude” and the desire to be a “polite guest” that they become servile sycophants and rollover and do tricks for the “hosts”. You sound like an archetypal H1B indentured slave – the kind that is responsible for the spinelessness of the Indian community in the US. “Please master, let me live my life like a good dog.” I see the mexican lobby, I see the jewish lobby, hell, there is even an Chinese lobby. But Indians? “Please master, tell me when to rollover and play dead.” Typical Indian middle-class mentality. Like the apolitical, I-am-happy-to-just-be-here-and-dont-want-anything-else FOB parents of these ABCDs here.
So why did I come to the US? Because I was invited stupid. Why was I invited? Because education is a multi-million dollar industry and foreign students are the biggest consumers. Foreign students drive the tech industry which forms the backbone of US economy. Really, are you so stupid that you don’t realize that simple truth? Don’t you realize that US is a capitalist country and that you get nothing for free in the US? Do you really think that the US would do anybody a favour? The American Dream is one of the biggest myths ever created. What we are seeing on this blog are the casualties of the American Dream. I was young and naive when I was fooled into buying it.
And for God’s sake, grow a spine. Learn to stand up for your rights. Nobody is doing you a favor. And for your indentured servitude, you do get the freedom to bitch and moan once in a while. If you feel obligated to keep singing praises of your white salesmen 24/7, then thats your problem. But don’t expect me to join in your bhajans. Me, I know exactly what my contributions are – and I know that the salesmen know it too. The salesmen are not stupid. And they are masters of their trade. They are gettin’ a darned good deal in my case. You on the other hand, sound like a lick-spittle of the US government – someone living off handouts provided by them.
You are getting weirder by the post, Mr. Loony/Dining+Philosopher.
No, I just like to do my own business. When people don’t get along because of narrow-mindedness, it interests me enough to interfere. So how come we never hear anything coming out of “FOBs” like you who are so inflated with your own self-worth and contempt for decadent Western culture? I mean, since you’re so above everyone in the country, shouldn’t be making the headlines by now?
No, stupid. You came here to take advantage of opportunity. You begged and paid for your visa, and were mighty thrilled when it came through. No one was going to throw you in jail for declining the ‘invitation’. No US company or university was going to sob and cry over you turning them down.
Um, yeah. Who wants to live on welfare and charity? Not me. Do you?
What did you buy into? The fanatsy that you can come into the US for charity — and then rant about how it’s not giving poor you anything for free and how you actually have to work for your living, and further, expect no one to call you out on your idiocy?
I stand up for my rights fine without your help. I don’t take racism or misogyny. On the other hand, I don’t go about fabricating notions of racism either. Maybe I have been more fortunate than you, but I have hardly, if ever, encountered racism here.
And yes, I consider myself a guest in any country or region that I am not native to or born in, whether or not I am working for it. If you were a paying guest somewhere that was profitting off your rent — overcharging you, even — would you take that as a license to curse at your hosts? If you were that unhappy living there, would you stay and continue to bitch — wouldn’t it be more logical to leave?
Maybe it had something to do with my experience growing up. I encountered worse ‘racism’ from the North Indians in South India, than I ever have from Americans. You scorn ABCDs for not mispronouncing Sanskrit words — is that much worse than the northies I knew (mostly immigrants from Bihar and Gujarat in search of a better life down south) who blatantly mispronounced South Indian words, explaining that their accent was superior? Or who went on endless tirades about the discomfort, the food, the people, and the culture of the south — despite voluntarily moving to and living there?
Actually, guess what, I’m also free to decide whether I’m under indentured servitude or not. Hard for you to fathom, but I love my work, I love what I get to do, and I’m satisfied with my pay. Yes, the country and my employer are getting something out of me, but I certainly wouldn’t be here if I wasn’t getting my fair share out of it.
If you feel you’re under indentured servitude, why don’t you first “grow a spine” and get the hell of it? Are so cowardly that you simply rail in blogs about the Whites and Jews, and come Monday, go work for them at a job you seemingly feel that you’ve been forced into? Or wait… maybe you don’t want to freed of your job! Maybe you would be miserable if fired or kicked out of your university. So how ‘indentured’ is that?
If I’m going to bitch and moan, I’d rather do it for things that are genuinely moan-worthy, rather than whether ABCDs pronounce ‘samosas’ correctly or not. As you can see, some people like their life too much to waste their time on cursing everyone triviality.
Well, stop giving them the darned good deal, if you think it’s unfair. How does standing up to your rights as an employee have anything to do with whatever else you’ve been saying?
wow, diningtroll is truly revolutionary but gangsta
sarcastic applause
your self-hate is impressively complex.
Response to someol’guy at 103 (apologies; i didn’t read much of anything in between):
By tenor I meant the tone, not the substance, of 74. Let’s put substance aside for a moment. The tone was caustic. The comment that is, I have no comment on the speaker. By supporting caustic comments you encourage these bad faith comments, also known as troll comments. That your opinions were not entirely applicable to the post in question only further feeds the caustic troll. Threads meander, such is their nature. But when one commenter would steer it astray, the community should bring it back and 74 was going down a dark path.
I can understand your concerns with this ‘community.’ Indeed the community, both bloggers and commentators, are actively grappling with this growing pains. Perhaps you didn’t realize this, but the bloggers have been catching a lot of flack (i’ve wielded my fair share) for perceived inconsistencies. SM is a work in progress, a communal work in progress. From what I can tell, SM began as something small and intimate with personal connections and benefits-of-doubt. With popularity, SM is outgrowing than comfort zone and surely we all remember the clumsiness of puberty. So have some patience. We want to learn and we’re interested in our heritage. If we falter, please, correct us. But causticity like 74 and subsequent have no place in community. Surely, you can recognize that.
I just went through diningtrolls blog. Alarm bells. Two important questions to you : which university do you attend ? Do you have a gun ?
128 (dipesh), I had the same thought when I read it, sadly.
back to the post…
While in India, I’ve noticed that bullshit or shit was never given the same degree of censure that other words were given. In school, several of the male teachers were notorious for using the words bloody and bullshit. Nor were students shy about saying shit in front of older lady teachers if it came up in conversation. Like all things in India, whats ok with one part of the population will not be ok with others, but generally shit and bullshit has a higher acceptance rate in public use than any euphemisms related to sex or genitalia. It could be related to the Indian penchant for a little discretion when it come to all matters sex related.
FYI, misogyny on the web:
There is a whole WaPo article about it today.
@loony-dining (#114)
a) compliment, not complement
b) I am not in a fight with anyone, as you seem to think.
c) While I will continue to maintain that I share some of your discomfiture with some of the stuff on here, I think we differ radically in our general perspectives, as well as some of the particularities of what causes us discomfort here. Basically, I’m trying to stop you from giving me any ‘compliments’, as it sort of freaks me out. However much I may disagree with some of the posters on here, I do think I have more common ground with them than with you.
@Espressa (#126): Well, I was talking about content, or perhaps ‘what drove the content’, not tone or general beliefs, though it is not my business to police others’ tone, nor should it be: I try merely to keep my comments civil and engaged, and cannot do more than that, so that if I happen to agree with something that was said rudely, but that I think had merit aside from its tone, I do not think I should be barred from saying so. By the way, why do you always speak in the first-person plural ‘we try… we mess up.. etc’ when referring to the SM posters? Am I, as a non-authentic-ABD 😉 automatically excluded from being part of this ‘community’? Just wondering.
Our epics celebrate fucking, not pansying around with flowers and chocolates
I hope the fucking was set up by flowers and chocolates.
No, just DUTY 🙂
someol’guy: You always have the option of looking through the 3 years of material already generated on this blog to get a sense of who the community is and what has preoccupied them, and how, at various stages, which might serve either to confirm or alter your ideas.
People, take a deep breath and count 1 to 10.
Like most FOBs here, I used to get frustrated with some of the posts. Once I looked in to the bloggers hearts ( I have magical powers), I realised there is no malicious intent. They are just ebil 🙂
It is a slow but sure process, a matter of time. You will be a convert soon. It is all about mimicry, foreign onomatopoeia (pah, eh?, oops, whoa), habit formation, a burning desire to ‘belong’, and a remarkable haste to ‘jettison’ your past. The fact that there are no ABCD blogs in their ‘mother tongues’ (pls let me know if there are any), and Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindustani, Malayali, Marathi, Oriya, Punjabi, Tamil, Telugu ABCDs have dumbed down their distinctive richnesses to accommodate a lowest common denominator is worth noting.
Beware of the free floating cosmopolitans. US has nothing to lose, but India has its classical gharanas, paintings, languages, dialects, stories, architecture, designs, dress styles, food, drinks, stitching patterns, local knowledge systems, folk songs … so lovingly created through centuries.
Dining Philosopher, you need to be calm down, probably become an entrepreneur. Be a creator, think what you can do rather than pointing out what others can’t do. Yoga comes from the Sanskrit root ‘yuj’, which means ‘to unite’ or ‘join’. That is an antithesis of the independent western self that commonly experiences socially disengaged emotions (pride, boasting, swagger), as opposed to the interdependent eastern self’s engaged emotions (empathy, respect, indebtedness). Be positive. Take the good, do not pay attention to the bad. Otherwise you risk being what you hate.
MountainCloud: Finally a silver lining ..Thankyou Sahab/Memsahab. So much drama over backwas! It looked like the UP Vidhan Sabha for a while!
That’s because for the vast majority of so-called “ABCD”s (you could have said “2nd gen” or “ABD”), ENGLISH IS THEIR MOTHER TONGUE. You know, because they were born here? Babies don’t have much say in how they were raised, so aim your ire at those who made such linguistic choices not at us. But then, insulting our parents would make you rude. Besides, I know IBDs from India who can’t write or read Tamil, Malayalam, Hindi. And they blog in English. Why aren’t you insulting them?
What’s with all the “ABCD”-bashing on this thread? Did you notice that the abuse seems to be flowing one-way, and it’s all aimed at people who were born here?
@Pondatti: Why is any discussion that argues that not everything about the ABD experience is a bed of rose dismissed as ‘bashing’? And, given that a fair number of IBDs seem to think that some amount of (un)conscious patronising/condescension is aimed at them by ABDs on this blog, (I, for one, have consistently argued that this may be entirely unconscious, but it’s something that many of us feel, and it may be worth those who post here to step back and look inside and ask themselves whether they do harbour certain complicated, perhaps contradictory, feelings about IBDs, the country of origin, etc.), how can you glibly assert that ‘..it’s all aimed at people born here’? Just as you perceive that some ‘bashing’ is aimed at you or your ilk, so do those on the other side of the birthplace fence. I don’t think that either perspective is the only one that is valid, but that both are. It appears that you do. Or do you, in the standard way that most of us instinctively do, only notice what hurts you personally? All I ask is some maturity and a willingness to acknowledge that both sides may have perfectly valid, and not necessarily conflicting, perspectives here. As I said earlier, there are ABDs who abhor IBDs, IBDs who abhor ABDs, and those from both sides who get along and appreciate the differences in each others’ perspectives, experiences, etc.
Wow, all this venom thrown around b/c a blogger asked a question ;
I for one am better-informed after reading the comments that stated that “bullshit” isn’t considered a cuss word in India. Thanks for those who live in India or grew up there who answered it politely for me. I always wondered why some of my family used shit, but wouldn’t dare use a malyalee cuss word.
Also cultural relativity is overvalued. I’m so glad anthro has moved out of that realm and people have courage to say, “that’s wrong,” w/o bigotry.
You want to know the origins of “BULL SHIT”, go here.
because FOBs think/believe they are superior beings compared to morally corrupt ABDs 😉
You know I hate the word FOB
I used to use it as a way to identify. But then I realized the word has definitely been appropriated by patronizing people – people with self-hate. So I’ve stopped using it b/c it can so easily be misunderstood.
Have you read “Dining”‘s comments? That’s total bashing. Beyond that, what I quoted about condemning ABCDs for NOT blogging in their parents’ mother tongue is ridiculously unreasonable. So that feels like bashing, too…and unlike the bile spewed by “Dining”, I listen sincerely to such comments, because they are being made articulately and in civil fashion.
But…a fair amount don’t. I don’t think any of us can speak for all of us. I also think it’s worth remembering that people on your team pointed out that once they spent some time here, they didn’t necessarily feel so insulted. My question is, are you coming at this discussion after being here for three weeks, three months or three years? I only ask because I think the majority of these comment-battles exist because people who haven’t been here for a very long time decide to make assumptions and declarations they shouldn’t, for lack of historical context.
Someol’guy asked:
Look at the language used – it’s not the questioning of the ABD experience that makes it bashing, it’s the way its put:
I want people to explain things I don’t understand. That’s why I’m here. But when people start putting me down as an ABD, that’s boring and I tune them out. Most of the time, that’s what sadly happens when there is a comment about ABDs in general or how ABDs on this blog behave.
Consider my water post – somebody came on and just started saying something along the lines of this is what I expect from stupid ABDs. They didn’t explain what they thought was right or wrong about the post, they were just upset that I had written a post about the water problem in India and had mentioned a few groups that were trying to address it. This is why I find sweeping generalizations about IBDs and ABDs to be not useful (btw, the problem with IBDs is that it’s not as broad in its coverage as FOBs, it leaves out PBDs, BBDs, NBDs and SLBDs).
Ha! It helps calm me down when I’m frustrated. Communal sentiments are soothing, and of course you’re a part of it. And that’s my point, we’re all part of this amorphous blob and causticity spreads quickly. Not to keep on and on with this redundancy, but I do think it is our collective responsibility to quarantine that shit. Leave the gun, take the canonli.
brown_fob is now officially brown_desi. Thanks 🙂
btw, the problem with IBDs is that it’s not as broad in its coverage as FOBs, it leaves out PBDs, BBDs, NBDs and SLBDs).
that’s pretty funny ( but what do those acronyms mean – i was trying to guess?)
That may be, but I’ve encountered too many people who use FOB in a denigrating way, so I identify “IBDs” in different ways. I don’t want anyone to think I’m putting them down in anyway.
Pakistani Born, Bangladeshi Born, Nepali Born, Sri Lankan born …
Maybe ABDs and FBDs would work – foreign born desis? Or DBDs? Desh born desis?
Anybody steal one of those Coachella hoses? 🙂