Allow me to sum up the Slate article I’m about to blog in four words:
Arranged marriages don’t suck.
There, was that so difficult to admit?
Dear Prudie,
I am a 30-year-old single woman who has been living in the United States for the past few years. I am considered smart, successful, and attractive and have an interesting and fulfilling life. But my family, who live in India, are worried that I’m still single, and have been trying to arrange my marriage. While I do want to be married, I’ve had a couple of relationships that didn’t work out; I’ve been very independent and have lived life on my own terms—so I now find it hard to go through the arranged marriage setup. I know my parents will never force me to marry someone I don’t like, but the idea of having an arranged marriage seems archaic and almost mortifying. I’d also like to believe that marriages should be based in love and there should be an element of romance involved. My mother thinks that as long as two people have a certain compatibility and mutual respect, love can happen later. What should I do?
—Confused
Wait- wot’s this? Someone who isn’t second gen can be “confused”? Shocking. Utterly astonishing, I tell you. 😉 I thought we American Born-types had a monopoly on bewilderment.
Dear Confused,
Now that I have a daughter, I’ve come to see the wisdom of arranged marriages. What’s she going to know about picking a mate? Right now, I have a few candidates I’m keeping my eye on—since my daughter is only 11, I have plenty of time to monitor how these boys turn out. You say you would like to find a husband, but haven’t been successful at it. I understand your aversion to the idea of an arranged marriage, but as long as everyone understands you will not be pressured to wed the guy, why not see who your parents come up with? Certainly their knowledge of you, the young man, and the qualities two people need to get along has to be as good as the algorithms of Match.com. Yes, there is an archaic quality to the notion of being introduced to someone you are supposed to marry, but that’s the ultimate, if unstated, goal of most fix-ups. As for romance versus compatibility—you and your mother are both right. If you meet the man in question and you two fall in love, what a story of romantic destiny! And romance without compatibility and mutual respect—no matter how you two got together—is destined to be a relationship that didn’t work out.
—Prudie
Wow, not only do arranged marriages not suck– neither did Prudence’s take on them! And no mention of henna, spices or a mango anywhere! This is a landmark moment in the history of how arranged marriages are perceived in America. A mainstream columnist grokked the concept better than a brownie did; she realized that really, it’s more about the “assist” than the “arrange” and she didn’t get all westernized-aggro on our kundis about oppressive traditions, in fact, she basically asked, “What’s the harm?”. If you’ll pardon me, I’m going to go faint now, from the refreshing lack of orientalism/sensationalism/um…narrow-mindedness…ism.
::
Thanks for the tip, fish-eyed one. 🙂
I’m so sorry, Clueless.
Clueless, I am sorry and dejected over your experience. I understand the situation that led up to your marriage completely. 20 is a young age to get married – mature understanding of the world and adult relationships is only beginning to be formed – and to be pressured into a supposedly permanent one is harsher.
There are a number of complexities in this discussion. In India, there are numerous example of each part of the spectrum that Razib mentioned (#13), so it would be incorrect to assert that any one part has now disappeared. People are forced into marriages, given choices from a limited set, offered more freedom to locate from ‘outside’, simply allowed to choose what they will etc. The added complexity on top of all this is NRD (non-resident desi) aspect of things. Expectations/needs of nubile NRDs are decidedly different from family back home, and often from immediate older family in the west.
I have seen many FOB friends go to India, get married to strangers, bring them over, and as far as I know, live happily ever after. However, in almost all cases, they were provided with a short-list of potential mates within a certain set of their specifications (age range, education level, ambition, goal, physical traits etc.). These candidates were already acceptable to the parents (based on their own criteria – caste, standing, financial state etc.). In addition at least a couple of my friends were able to initiate e-mail only, no-commitment conversations with some of them. Both parties were able to assert some freedom in the whole process, and all this really helped them to shorten the list down to one or two people. From here on, it was mostly a trip home, confirm, and seal the deal 🙂
I can’t claim to have friends from a hugely diverse educational background – most of them had gone to masters degree programs, followed by jobs in the US. So perhaps that accounts for the similarity of experience.
Wow, for some reason when i saw the first comment from clueless, i assumed it was a female.
If anybody cares I have forgiven my parents somewhat. It is other people in my family who used there influence on my parents that I do not care. These are relative despite living in the Canada/USA still think they are living in 1950’s Punjab.
When I was shown all these girls, I was left in room by my self with them. I was a 20 year old that could barely speak punjabi and they were young girls who leanred and spoke English in school, but were very shy about speaking it to someone else. There was a lot of akward silence, and some of these girls would keep there head down.
What in the world did I have in common with them to speak about.
One thing – I’ve noticed this before but Clueless’s comments involving Punjabi culture/language reminded me – Punjabi (mostly Sikh) ABDs with older immediate family that’s lived in the west for a long time seem to be under extra pressure to get married younger, and specifically to people from desh. I just had an acquaintance get married at 24, to an 18 yr old girl in India. I mean 18 yr old girl !!!! I shudder the thought – I consider myself a kid at that age, and had I gotten married then, I would have surely missed out on some awesome student years, not to mention I probably would have been very ill-equipped to handle a married-person ‘role’.
I can’t place it as to that is so with this specific desi subgroup. Maybe the older immediate family never really assimilated? limited education? what? Any ideas? Is my impression even accurate?
Clueless, I feel sorry for you and your wife. Must have been very difficult for both of you.
Maybe the older immediate family never really assimilated?
I can’t speak specifically to the Punjabi subgroup issue, but I’ve certainly observed similar trends in my own extended family. There are a number of individuals who are stuck in a time/culture warp, where India and Indian society remain exactly as in the 1960s, when they first moved to the West. In contrast, my relatives who have remained in India actually seem more “progressive” in some ways, because they have observed/experienced the changes in Indian cultural mores over the last 40 years pretty much firsthand.
Clueless you were very brave to share your experience with us
HMF, Moornam You’ve both written some powerful words regarding our beloved (not so beloved) institution.
I think that marriage in relation to the westernized middle-classes serves as a badge, like a college or graduate degree; I am finally ‘grown up’. Even the uberhip Carrie Bradshaw dreams about marriage with palpable doubts that only 4″ Jimmy Choos can bury (for a few days anyways). When you see all your friends getting married you don’t want to be alone. This social pressure may apply more to women but even guys…by the time you hit 29 or so..good luck hanging out with your married pals on a regular basis if you’re single. It’s not a pretty thought..the idea that social pressures have such an effect on independent ole us…..but the subconscious can be a biatch!
Clueless, powerful and poignant story. 20 is young for a woman to get married, but for a man it’s VERY young, given our delayed maturity. I certainly understand a lot more now about some of your earlier comments on SM, and their context.
To add to what Seeker said in #106, caste is a very major issue with these tradition-minded families as well. People MUST get married within their specific caste, period.
Punjabi Sikhs as a specific desi subgroup do have a lot of rural or village origin people in the diaspora…which explains some of the conservatism…but Gujaratis in America who hail from a rural origin in Gujurat also have a lot of very traditional notions, and also favor early marriages, within strict caste requirements (think motel owners in the southern USA). I think it’s not a regional thing but a rural thing, which desis from urban, middle-class, English-medium backgrounds won’t necessarily understand. I’d be interested in knowing if Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada, who also often have a rural origin in Sri Lanka, are as strict when it comes to their 2nd gen kids’ marriages.
Absolutely, let’s not forget his wife…she was probably under her own intense pressures.
Clueless, one more thing if it’s any consolation…at least you have your daughter, and had her at a nice young age…while the rest of us (myself included) delay marriage and kids further and further, because we’re all so complicated and so hard to please, until by the time we ever have a kid (which I would say is IF rather than WHEN for many of us) we’ll be pushing 40.
quite fitting that clueless scored the first response in this thread.
Given the dual lives that a lot of 1.5 and 2nd gen desi kids live, how accurately can parents pinpoint what is best for their child? Their input data is all wrong because they’re missing half of the picture. Arranged marriage is a most fearsome proposition to sons and daughters that have allowed their parents to develop an auntie friendly perception of themselves.
Generally speaking, the better your relationship with your parents, the more likely it is that an arranged marriage could work. Ironically, the better your relationship with your parents is, the less likely they are to try and strip you of choice.
And that’s what it all boils down to – choice: whether you would rather choose your own disaster or sink into the comfortable blame-free role of blaming your parents for your misery.
ps. Is it wrong that I obtained my mother’s email address password for the purpose of inspecting (and filtering) the biodata she receives?
arranged marriages are typically portrayed as arrangements made with business and social status as the primary considerations. This is really not too far off the mark. What is different about living in the states is that the environment here offers so many competing standards of courtship that, pragmatically, any prospective matchmaker (outside of highly illegal abductions)must understand that we cannot be thrown together like mismatched puzzle pieces as some of our parents were.
It doesn’t seem to take terribly long for a recently arrived immigrant to become at least curious about many of the individual rights that Americans now seem to take for granted.
I recently met a very sweet Muslim girl who came (illegally) from India w/ her parents to NYC 4 yrs ago. She is getting married, at the behest of her mom at (age 19) to an older, settled (I assume citizen) guy who owns his own house and takes care of his parents as well. She met him once or twice and thought he was “cute” and “nice to this mother.” Her former teacher and counselors told her what to watch out for (to determine his character). They were a little bit apprehensive, but that is in her culture, so didn’t say anything against it. I wonder if her illegal status can be changed b/c of marriage!
Excellently put. I’d add, the less likely they are to adopt a “we know whats best for you” attittude, refusing to acknowledge that this decision is not one to take it as lightly as their parents, and their parents parents and their parents parents parents, have.
Clueless I gotta give you your props on sharing this story with up man. I have to ask are you still married to her?
Clueless,
Your story seems made up. Your wording suggests someone who has little comprehension of the English language (and I’m overlooking the tons of spelling mistakes). The sentence formation is similiar to that I’ve seen by conmen on loan applications. A 20+ year old Canadian will not write like this, despite having an arranged marriage!
You’ve read a lot about various things happening to people in Punjab. You’ve added all of them up to create this scenario on a public forum for fun. I’m not even sure you’re a man. Your choice of words and adjectives are similiar to those normally used by fob women and teenage girls.
I normally don’t get into personal lives and attacks, but had to respond to this since there was an outpouring of sympathy for you on this board. If there’s anything I cannot stand, it’s undeserved praise, criticsm or sympathy.
In the 1% chance that I’m wrong, I have a question. Having shared all this with us, how come you did not share exactly what went wrong after marriage? What is it about her that put(s) you off?
M. Nam
Thank you, MoorNam. I had the same feeling reading all these sympathetic remarks. My guess is that clueless never expected replies to his/her comment and forgot about it. He/she checked back long after the story had been posted and realized that some commenters took the bait, and ran with the it.
I hope I’m wrong.
Here is my story: I am also a 1.5 gen., female. I was forced to get married at the age of 18 by my parents, but I had a say in who I want to get married to. I have seen 35 to 40 guys in India and none of those people fit into my imaginary companion. Anyhow, I finally had to choose a guy because Daddy said I have no other choice but to get married. So I chose a guy who was also my brother-in-law’s cousin and he was only 24 years old. I have to say we fallen in love after the marriage and he is my true soul mate. After 21 years of marriage and 2 kids, our love for each other never ceased but growing stronger every day. Oh, we are celebrating our 22nd Wedding Anniversary this month.
MoorNam and MFunnierThanYou:
For shame, Clueless has pages worth of comments left here, from the same IP, on several different topics, each of which “backs up” his story, not that he should have to do such a thing. If he concocted his tale then he did it months ago and has stuck with it since. I think an apology might be in order.
Clueless, thank you for sharing your story with us. I hope you don’t regret doing so because of two skeptics.
To Clueless and all SM-ers,
I sincerely apologize for my remarks about the authenticity of Clueless’ story. I was not aware of the now obvious fact that Clueless has a history with SM.
In high school, topic #1 was why won’t mom let me date. Now it’s arranged marriage. See you in 10 years when it’s why the little ones are dating people we disapprove 🙂
I had a bad typing attack and meant to write us instead of up.
i know a couple that were an arranged marriage couple. they have been married for 16 years now. they have 3 kids and are truly in love. beautiful post!
“I’d be interested in knowing if Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada, who also often have a rural origin in Sri Lanka, are as strict when it comes to their 2nd gen kids’ marriages. “
Other than for Brahmins, caste is not nearly as strong a factor anymore as it is in other south asian cultures.
126:
I’ve read this sentence five times now, and I still don’t understand what it means.
MoorNam, you’ve completely lost credibility with me. Now you’ve gone too far. This guy (Clueless), who was formerly PearlJamFan, has been extremely consistent throughout his time posting here, just as SM Intern mentioned. In previous threads he has alluded to his age, his daughter, his family and relatives, his religions, his being from Canada, his disturbing trip to India in the past, his disgust with many aspects of desi/Punjabi culture, etc. I don’t fully agree with a lot of what he usually posts (at least not the extremes he takes things to sometimes, although there is often a lot of sense in what he says) but at least it is clear there is a context and a background to what he posts. He knows firsthand of the things he speaks, even if his conclusions might be controversial. I don’t mean to take this thread off-topic but you’ve disgusted me with your comment and I had to express that.
“his religions” was a typo…I meant “his religion”.
40 · Differently-abled Gypsy on April 12, 2007 02:29 PM · Direct link “Wow. I have to admit to having no sense of the etymology of the word, so my apologies for any offense caused. I’ve never heard the term used as a racist pejorative before. Again, sorry.” “No problem. It was my gentle riff on this [reference to my objection to the use of “ret_rded in a previous post”]”
Yeah, because it’s not like Anna isn’t a bit too old to speak like an adolescent boy. Sepia Mutiny is one of the crappier online communities.
*make that ethnic online communities
This, I think, sums up MoorNam…he can be 100% wrong but only thinks he might be 1% wrong. Yes, this time it was a personal comment, and I’m fine with it.
Boris, if it is so crappy, why do you visit this “ethnic online community”? Post another personal, non-issue focused flame and you won’t have to be so burdened anymore.
You have left thoughtful and valuable comments in other threads, what I excerpted above is anomalous, which leads me to believe it’s personal.
The best part abt arranged marriages is that you get the credit for its success but the blame for failure lied elsewhere.
It means – I want to be an anti-brahmin troll. Hence I will make incomprehensible equalities like “brahmin” being a “south asian culture”.
SM intern – posting one more time will change the fact that every remotely progressive comment I leave gets attacked every single time?
As to why I bother with this particular one – well, it’s the only one I know of so far that’s my own ethnic comm! It bothers me that I get a more thoughtful reception on others but not my own. Oh, and most refrain from using immature derogatory terminology like “ret_rded” (or at least get called out by a bunch of people).
And it wasn’t personal – I ought to have said, “The poster” instead when criticizing how using terms like that lowers the tone.
@ #9 – shlok
By any chance is this a certain A. Singh?
Everything I said in my post #95 is true. I was married little more then a decade ago in the Moga, Punjab area.
Sorry I had to step out and couldn’t answer a few questions.
My family is very assimlated compare to most other punjabi’s in the USA and especially Canada. In fact my parents becoming too western played a part in my marriage. They took alot of criticsm for forgetting there roots and I guess that why they felt I should get married after pressure from other family members.
When I want to India, alot of relatives on both of my parents side from both Canada/USA at the same time. The relatives who put pressure on me to get married, are the ones who live in the west yet are stuck in 1960 Punjab way of thinking, of course with my luck those were the ones at India at the same time.
For those who don’t know I born and raised in area where out of 75,000 people, at least 98% of the people were white and there were only 20 desi families all but a couple of them punjabi. The thing is that I had very little exposure to punjabi culture and the few times I did, it want in one ear and out the other. Despite being in area that was 98% white, I never once felt out of place, or feel like I did not belong. But the funny thing is now living in area with the biggest punjabi population outside of punjab I feel like a total outsider.
I was born and raised in Canada, but the closest major city was Spokane Washington. That is somewhat of clue to where I grew up.
Clueless,
Again I apologize for my remarks. I know what you mean though, about feeling like an outsider within the Indian community. When I hang out with my non-Indian friends, ethnicity isn’t even an issue. I’m “allowed” to like alternative music. With Indian acquaintances, it’s always, “Uh, can we turn off the ‘gora’ music?” That’s just one example, but you get the idea. It’s sucks that it’s hard to find an Indian with similar interests as me, especially when your interests are different from the status quo, even within your own background. Then parents get mixed into the equation… As my friend used to say, “Complications make life interesting.” I guess, in a way, that’s why this blog exists. So I’m glad our lives are so complicated, because at least it gives us something to have in common.
Now let’s all hold hands and skip 😉
Some people said they should also feel sorry for my wife. I agree with them, she too had it hard comming to a new country. To be honest I will be the 1st to say that I have not been a good husband, I have tried my best, but we had nothing in common when we get married, and right now the only thing we have in common is our daughter. I guess so long being in a loveless marriage I have get used to it for the sake of my daughter.
Infact my wife wants another child and I don’t want one. Like I told in another topic last week. Alot of punjabi people I don’t know that well have told me that I should or need to have a son other wise my life is incomplete.
Also when I get back from India, my friends were all shocked to say the least. Alot of my friends both male and female had parents who said that I could move in with them. One of my friends dad who is a lawyer even offered to help me get out of my marriage for free.
For those wondering yes last year I was PearlJamFan on this blog. At the time I upset some people with my bashing of punjabi culture among other things. I apologize for getting carried away with my comments some time.
But I hope that people also understand why issues like multicultrism vs intergration/asslimation, the type of people who immigrated to western countries, sexism in punjabi culture and other topics like that are important to me after what I have been through in my life.
DMM: Im so happy for you. A very very happy anniversary to you 🙂
Clueless: Clueless, feel really bad about what has happened. I hope something works out for both of you. I really wish those horrid people would stop creating more misery for you with the “you should have a son” bit 🙁
You know, this reminds me of the time when I was also supposed to marry some 2gen. guy from New York. His folks were friends with my folks. they had left for the US some 20+ yrs back and since then never met my parents- only exchanged christmas cards every year. One fine day they call up from out for the blue- and guess what they want to get their son married to me! My relatives were like “Ohhh we know the family…they’re very nice..he’s a US citizen.. bla bla bla”. But what about the boy, I used to ask! They had never seen him, never known him! And just because you know the parents doesnt mean you know the son/daughter by default! It was too creepy for me. My parents were very keen on it as well, but I was way too scared, so they backed out!
After a few years, I met someone- and he was everything I had hoped for in a partner! Only he was muslim. We had a tough time convincing our parents, but at last it was a wedding blessed and attended by all. We had a Christian ceremony, a muslim ceremony and then a civil marriage 🙂 Everything worked out just fine.. Its been four years since and our parents couldnt be happier for us…..
Not that I distrust the story or source or anything, but to be truthful, the quoted statement holds an iota of truth with me. I’ve thought the poster was female all this time as well. But what I’m curious is, can other Punjabi’s relate similar stories? or at least the existence of them? 20 seems quite young for a male, even in the most backwards of backwards cultures. I’m not doubting the account, just wondering if it’s commonplace or an aberration.
YEAH!
risible (#59):
Just be careful which Iyengars you chill with…
Allright Clueless. Let me give you the benefit of doubt and apologise. But I would like you to hear my side as to my skepticism…
Your English is very bad for a 30+ year old who’s born and brought up in Canada in a mostly white neighbourhood/culture. It’s more like that of an fob’s who went to “Lurn Inglish in too months” school in India to nail a software job abroad.
There was an overwhelming amount of sympathy for you on this board, and you did not thank anyone for it. Not one line. This is highly unusual and is more likely from a person who made up the story (and hence did not need the empathy).
You’re still married, and yet brought your personal martial life onto a public forum. This is highly unusual as well. People talk about their ex’es on public forums all the time, but almost never their spouse (unless it’s for general informational purposes like “My spouse was born in Uganda“).
You claimed that you had no inkling of Punjabi culture, but your some of your writings are a direct translation from Punjabi. Like “It went from one ear to the other“. That strikes me as odd.
When a commentary that tantamounts to “I cry myself to sleep every night” comes from a man, it is highly unbelievable. Men deal with their issues differently.
I could go on, but then what’s the point? One thing is for sure. Yours is a very unique case.
M. Nam
MoorNam, he said “it want in one ear and out the other”, not “It went from one ear to the other”. So he got it right. Furthermore his English is no worse than anyone’s who writes quickly and informally FOR A BLOG post…it’s not like he was trying to write an essay to get in to college or anything. As for bringing his personal story on this forum, so what? It’s not like we know his real name or his address, or are ever going to meet him. He has lost absolutely nothing in terms of privacy by sharing his story here. Lastly, there was no element of crying himself to sleep; if anything, he seems to have accepted things, and to be focused on his kid. Obviously it did leave him with a bad taste in his mouth for many things desi. It is a unique case only in that 20 is extrememly young for a man…but if you push it up to the 24-26 age range, you’ll find countless men who were pressurised into marriage. Granted women have it MUCH worse.
Amitabh,
By no means am I implying that the hurt is not there. Indeed, Clueless’s frustration shows very well in all comments. And I do agree that such cases exist. I was only skeptical about the story because everything went wrong, and yet he’s still married with a kid (and maybe plan to have another).
I was thinking that Clueless was an unmarried Punjabi woman who has seen someone close (sisters/cousins) suffer from these kinds of marriages and wants to bring it out into this forum to learn how to deal with this kind of situation.
Lastly, another thing strikes as odd. When I posted my skepticism, there was an outburst of anger from many. But nothing from Clueless. A 30+ year old man who does not get angry when his deepest feelings are rejected as a fraud? Unusual.
M. Nam
I’m going to put myself out there and say this without apology and am seriously not trying to derail the conversation but since Moornam is getting heat I feel the need to say it.
I called Clueless out as a troll several times in the past because after having dealt with insanely similar posts in the past for so many years on that other desi board I’m not going to apologize for spotting one. However I shut up after I realized that no one seemed to share my sentiment on it and really in the grand scheme of things it was pointless to really argue. It is definitely one handle I avoid and do not interact with.
But I’m on Moornam’s side on this. The situation may as well be real, I would never deny that. I know people like that and it’s unfortunate and sad and it evokes empathy because we all know someone that has been thru this.
However I’m sorry but I haven’t yet bought the notion that the situation is his own. So be it. And yes I’ve followed his posts and what he writes and not just this story but haven’t bought most of what he seems to portray as his story in the past.
And this isn’t any personal attack on him because I don’t know him from the nail on the wall but when your empathy has been milked by virtual people looking for personal entertainment as much as mine has you learn to spot the signs. Moornam unfortunately and I’m really sorry to have to say this has nailed it.