Allow me to sum up the Slate article I’m about to blog in four words:
Arranged marriages don’t suck.
There, was that so difficult to admit?
Dear Prudie,
I am a 30-year-old single woman who has been living in the United States for the past few years. I am considered smart, successful, and attractive and have an interesting and fulfilling life. But my family, who live in India, are worried that I’m still single, and have been trying to arrange my marriage. While I do want to be married, I’ve had a couple of relationships that didn’t work out; I’ve been very independent and have lived life on my own terms—so I now find it hard to go through the arranged marriage setup. I know my parents will never force me to marry someone I don’t like, but the idea of having an arranged marriage seems archaic and almost mortifying. I’d also like to believe that marriages should be based in love and there should be an element of romance involved. My mother thinks that as long as two people have a certain compatibility and mutual respect, love can happen later. What should I do?
—Confused
Wait- wot’s this? Someone who isn’t second gen can be “confused”? Shocking. Utterly astonishing, I tell you. 😉 I thought we American Born-types had a monopoly on bewilderment.
Dear Confused,
Now that I have a daughter, I’ve come to see the wisdom of arranged marriages. What’s she going to know about picking a mate? Right now, I have a few candidates I’m keeping my eye on—since my daughter is only 11, I have plenty of time to monitor how these boys turn out. You say you would like to find a husband, but haven’t been successful at it. I understand your aversion to the idea of an arranged marriage, but as long as everyone understands you will not be pressured to wed the guy, why not see who your parents come up with? Certainly their knowledge of you, the young man, and the qualities two people need to get along has to be as good as the algorithms of Match.com. Yes, there is an archaic quality to the notion of being introduced to someone you are supposed to marry, but that’s the ultimate, if unstated, goal of most fix-ups. As for romance versus compatibility—you and your mother are both right. If you meet the man in question and you two fall in love, what a story of romantic destiny! And romance without compatibility and mutual respect—no matter how you two got together—is destined to be a relationship that didn’t work out.
—Prudie
Wow, not only do arranged marriages not suck– neither did Prudence’s take on them! And no mention of henna, spices or a mango anywhere! This is a landmark moment in the history of how arranged marriages are perceived in America. A mainstream columnist grokked the concept better than a brownie did; she realized that really, it’s more about the “assist” than the “arrange” and she didn’t get all westernized-aggro on our kundis about oppressive traditions, in fact, she basically asked, “What’s the harm?”. If you’ll pardon me, I’m going to go faint now, from the refreshing lack of orientalism/sensationalism/um…narrow-mindedness…ism.
::
Thanks for the tip, fish-eyed one. 🙂
The “archaic” notion probably comes from child brides being married off to 70 yr old men a la “Water.”
But along the lines of what Rupa said, in some of these cases, the bride doesn’t just have to marry the husband but the whole damn family!
you’re marrying the family, not just your husband.
You’re doing that anyway, arranged marriage or not. On the flip side, he’s marrying your family too.
Pondatti #49 — Ha!
The above statement ties into whats below.
Anna might understand that a lot of the First genners are confused, but my parents (dare I say a lot of our parents) cannot fathom the idea (they try, but it’s beyond their reach). I experienced a lot of what my parents saw and a little bit more.
New people, culture and a very different society creates a hybrid (like it did in my case). Things that were preached as “wrong” are not anymore.
Ultimately it depends on which side you give into, if you and your folks have had the same experience and how much you trust your own judgment.
Rupa asks: >>Aren’t we talking about the institute of marriage in our culture here?
What institution of marriage here? One doesn’t exist.
M. Nam
its a tough call either way. How long does one need to live with the person before he/she decides to live forever with that person? Its always taking a chance -whether its the first “date” ( pretty much the only date you may ever get in an arranged situation ) Or a 100 dates. So for all those who do not believe in an arranged marriage, I ask you this – How many people do you have to sleep with before you can decide – yes I like this fuck better than all the previous ones and so let me go with this one. In an “arranged” situation, the expectation from one another is REALLY NOT TO EXPECT MUCH, so there is less likely to have any disappointments and more likely to be “oh well, its arranged” kind of an adjustmental/sacrificial attitude with each other. Moreover, there are plenty of people to lean-on for support during any marital issues, as it isn’t your responsibility alone and to an extent some problems may be resolved by intereference from interested parties. Whereas in a “self-hooked-up” situation, egos take precedence over anything else, so its less likely that the issues at hand will be addressed amicably. NO ?
Oh yeah? So what does IIM stand for? There’s one in Ahmedabad, another in Kolkata, another in Lucknow…
What institution of marriage here? One doesn’t exist.
The one that gay people really want to get into, and the one that people don’t want them to get into. 😉
Here’s the subtlety I’m trying to make. They are interested in my personal happiness, but subconsciously, they feel I will be happy when I’m serving “large order societal” goals – ie making others happy.
So tell them to chill with the Iyengars. Bring home your own honey and them to take that. The pain over dishonoring kula and jati will last a couple of weeks.
arranged marriage is good. i am afraid to talk to girls. without arranged marriage i don’t think i would be able to get a wife. plus my mom and dad taught me that i should treat girls with respect, and that loose talk with them may put me at risk of being labeled as having a questionable character within the community.
But I ain’t Rick James Bitch.
Iyengars?
hema:>>The one that gay people really want to get into, and the one that people don’t want them to get into. 😉
And this is exactly what I tell them as well: You’re barking up the wrong tree. Beating around the wrong bush. Buying the wrong stock. There’s no such institution remaining in the West.
M. Nam
Ha! Is that what we’re calling it these days? 😉
We must allow the gays to marry, that way they can be as miserable as we breeders are. I refuse to hoard all of this resentment and bitterness, not when I could share it with my more fabulous brethren. Pity parties would be way better planned, it’s a total win-win. Why should straight people have all the pain? The gays! I welcome you to the divorce! And the pre-nup! And the boredom!
This topic again!!! Just kidding- not freaking out! 😉
I think it depends upon how one was raised and what was going on in that area/community/family. It doesn’t have to be related to country even, b/c I recently met a gorgeous/successful FOB couple from Bangladesh (my parents’ old country) who live together after getting enegaged. I was shocked b/c I had not come across this before, BUT that’s my experience.
Yes, you are marrying their family, b/c they will be in your face (or adoring you, depending on how it goes) at typical holidays/vactions/etc. My little sis is now dealing w/ her future mother-in-law (who sounds like a control freak, not unlike my sis- LOL). Seriously, most people have relatives you have to deal with.
Arranged marriage, or even arranged dating, SCARES the hell out of me still. BUT, who knows, one day I may change my mind! (I think it’s coming soon, b/c I’m 28!!!)
Its women son. Well Vimen works too, but if they are looking for a girl, you might want to chill out for a couple of more years. 😉
Iyengars?
[Insert jati here]. Seriously, the pain will last a couple of weeks. And then they will get back into the business of interfering in your life all over again. 🙂
oh my god!!!
i read “dear prudie” religiously!!!!* and when i read today’s column, i couldn’t help but wonder if it would end up on SM …
anna, i really <3 you sometimes
*and Margo on Yahoo! who was the prior Prudie, has mini columns on thurs & friday!!!, and is the daugher of ann landers — not that i’m obsessive about this stuff or anything
Yes and it normally goes something like this..
Mini-MeBoy’s parents:[writes]Are you sureyoushe don’t have a little clone inyouher?Foxxy CleopatraBoy: Yes I’m sure.Mini-MeBoy’s parents:[writes]Would you like to?Well, we would like to.Amen to that, bro! Amen!
I think the “suckiness” quotient of a relationship is all dependent on the attitudes of the people involved. It has nothing to do with arranged (assisted) or not.
Obviously there are different types of arranged marraiges. What is percieved to be more “traditional” is the type where there’s no say in whom you marry, ie. our sad abductee from post 1. That is quite rare indeed. And sure there’s the inbreeding/satisfy the community type as well, but from what I’ve seen that’s increasingly rare too. My concept of arranged marriage (as a 1.5 gen) is more akin to a blind date. Those happen in the West all the time. “Hey, I think you’d really get along with my brother/best friend/cousin” is not unlike parents saying, “hey, I know you well and I know a guy whose company I think you’d really enjoy.” My father is a therapist, and you’d be alarmed at the number of white folks (to be politically incorrect) who ask him to set them up with the intent of marriage. They feel comfortable talking to him, he knows them well, and it works just like it would back home. Honestly, if I had hit 35 and were single I’d certainly ask him to set me up with someone, and I’ve been out of the motherland since age 4. Who better than my parents who love me, know me, and want someone who’ll take care of me & cherish me?
and 35 yr olds, please don’t take offense. That’s me saying that I personally would feel lonely, not that that’s some cut off age for desperation.
Here’s the subtlety I’m trying to make. They are interested in my personal happiness, but subconsciously, they feel I will be happy when I’m serving “large order societal” goals – ie making others happy.
I completely agree with this and I would add that this is not necessarily intentional. Parents believe they really are going to pick the best person for thier child. But the notion that “parents will pick whats best” assumes the parents have a good understanding of who their child’s identity. Even as an Indian growing up in the US I know that is very often not true. So, how do the parent’s pick their child’s mate? They project their notions of identity and necessary qualities on to their child and assume what makes them happy (and what made their own parents happy) will also make their child happy. And, so children are “assisted” into marrying exactly those suiters who fit the mold their parents were raised with themselves and those who maintain the larger social goals.
This is a landmark moment: the first time I’ve completely agreed with everything razib said. I definitely think the dichotomy is a problem and needs to be broken, while still maintaining some critique of the institutions of marriage and patriarchy overall…
Oh but there is if it applies to legality. The piece of paper doesn’t bring more love or a guarantee or fidelity or anything for that matter but it certainly guarantees certain benefits that require one to be legally married so I’m not sure I’m ready to throw that institution out yet.
Nicely done, Hema. As soon as I read HMF’s question, the lawyer in me thought: “NEVER ask a question for which you don’t know the answer!” Of course, not that your original answer would be any less valid if you had no clue about the infield fly rule or when one might call for a hit-and-run.
My 2 paise….
My in-laws had the classic arranged marriage – Did not see each other till Wedding day etc .50+ years later they are remarkably happy and complement each other so well. My parents had a – gasp! – “love” marriage .40+ years later they are remarkably happy and complement each other so well.
My parents thankfully never believed in arranging/assisting things along. I hope my marriage will be as strong and happy as the examples the in-laws and parents set me.
I have friends (in the US and India) who were madly in love, dated for 7+ years, married and ended up going through ugly divorces. I have friends ( in the US and India) whose families assisted /arranged their marriages and they are very happy together.
So – though personally I could not fathom going through an “arranged marriage”, I am with Prudie here. Agree totally with # 71
Clueless # 1 : I am sorry things did not work out for you .Whatever you are going through I hope you will find the courage to make a better life for yourself whether within or outside of the marriage.
You’re first statement is true, the second statement is partly true. In an assisted/arranged case where pressure was placed externally to make the decision, this can often make the person resentful, and shade the attitude of the person before the relationship ever gets going.
JOAT #76:
My point exactly!
Marriage was a social institution throughout the history of man. Only in the last fifty years or so, it has been converted to a legal institution. And promptly, like everything the Government gets its hands into, the institution has withered drastically.
If you don’t want Social Security/Medicare and other related Government handouts from a spousal angle, there’s no point in getting married (whether you are straight or gay). Unless, of course, you believe in the Social institution of marriage. In that case, people need to rethink how much of that has survived in the West, and if it’s worth the trouble.
M. Nam
Maybe I am a lil bored or have recently watched Chris Rock’s HBO special so…
DAMN! my only hope 🙁
In that case, people need to rethink how much of that has survived in the West, and if it’s worth the trouble.
Personally, I think enough of it has survived that many people still aspire to marriage as a goal for their life, and not just for the benefits that accrue from marriage either. Yes, people get divorced, but the divorce rate in some parts of the US suggests that a lot more people stay married too.
And extrapolating to the West in general, the divorce rate in the UK is considerably lower than in the US. Does that mean then that marriage is more viable as an institution there than it is here?
HMF – I see what you’re saying and agree. I think my 2nd statement relied too much on the assumption that everyone can make this decision without external influence. I forgot, prematurely, of the emotional situation some experience when they’re confronted with the “did you want to meet so-and-so?”. Much like the person who went on vacation and ended up married, I don’t know exactly what transpired there, but I’m sure, there was enough influence to help this person make the “right” decision.
Relax buddy, it was a joke. And anyone can reply “Yes” without a follow up description. But, as I don’t really care, I didn’t push for a follow up description. But the kind of activities she described, as far as I’m concerned, fall well outside the range of what’s classified as “romance”
Intimacy, and having common interests (baseball and ice cream) are indeed things that probably do contribute to lasting long term relationships. One party jumping through hoops (buying chocolate, opening doors, buying roses, etc…) for the other, does not.
Jeez. Yes, anyone can say “yes” without a follow-up, but here’s my understanding of your precious infield fly rule.
The infield fly rule is when the bases are loaded, there’s two outs (or less). If you have a fair fly ball, the batter is out, as long as the ball was catchable by an infielder, even if it doesn’t actually get caught. Or something like that.
So there! 😉
Close, the bases don’t have to be loaded, just as long as a runner is on second or third (if there’s only a runner on 1st it doesnt matter), and there has to be less than 2 outs, not less than or equal to 2 outs. The rule is meant to take away the easy double play
Allright folks…time for Marriage 101.
Marriage started out as an institution where a boy and a girl requested/were granted permission to fuck. This permission has historically been granted by parents/society in the Indian setup and parents/Church in the western setup. This permission was granted with strings attached: That they would be together for life, and that if they deviated there would be severe physical, economic and social consequences. There was also the stipulation that they would have to largely surrender their individuality for the sake of those who gave them permission and for their children. Those who did not produce children(within a stipulated time) were deemed deviant and had to experience significant amount of pain.
This is how it’s been for millennia.
Now tell me, how much of that is relevant today in the West? If you answered “none”, then tell me why you want to get married in the first place.
M. Nam
But Hema.. not bad, for a girl..
Nice…love, old-age companionship, long-term planning, stable environment for kids, propogation of the species even…none of that seemed important for, I don’t know, 3000 years (?), but our great^30-grandpas and grandmas had to get laid! Hope UPenn invites you to teach Evolutionary Psychology next year, too…
Thanks, HMF. I’ll take that as the compliment it was so obviously meant to be! 😉
Purush:
love – Alllrighty then…
old-age companionship – there are many old-age homes…paid for by the state
long-term planning: Why bother? The State takes care of you
stable environment for kids: Why have kids? The State takes care of you
propogation of the species: You owe nothing to anyone, least of all to the species.
I’ll reject the invite. Academia is probably the most guilty in destroying the institution of marriage.
M. Nam
Marriage started out as an institution where a boy and a girl requested/were granted permission to fuck.
I’m going to be even more cynical and say that marriage started out as an institution to make paternity (and consequent property inheritance) more certain. Marriage, and the concomitant requirement that a woman be chaste in the marriage essentially ensured that the father of any children was also the husband, and he could then devolve his property on those children without concern.
But over the centuries, marriage has become less about property rights and more about social liaisons. Therefore, it has value in different ways than it once did.
how would you measure “success” in love-matches vs. any variety of arranged marriage?
if it’s by longevity, my family’s record on both is identical.
any other ideas?
Very clever…but you don’t require societal sanction to fuck now, do you? So why is marriage still around? The idea AS MUCH as the institution…
When I was forced to get married at the age of 20 on my 1st and only ever trip to India, it was my grandparents on both sides and some older aunt and uncles plus relatives I never met before in Punjab who put the pressure on my parents for me to get married. At the time I was as whitewashed or a coconut as one could be, I had little to no understanding of my punjabi culture. Alot of them want off on my parent about forgetting there roots.
As soon I get off the plane for 3 month trip to India, people asked me when I was going to get married. I thought they were joking, but it was the same thing every day. At 1st my parents were against the idea, but after all the criticsm they get as parents for having me as a son, plus my stupid now dead grandmother threatned to disown my dad if I didn’t get married my parents caved in.
I saw over a dozen different girls there. One time I met 2 sisters at the same time and asked to pick the one I like. It was weird to see all these people who wanted to me to marry there daughter only cause I had a canadian passport. I kept saying no over and over again. One of the last girls I saw my family chose her to be my wife no matter what I had to say.
If one good thing came out of this other then my beautiful daughter, is that my siblings, younger cousins and the children of my older cousins will not have be put in the same situation that I was put into. They all saw the disaster that was my marriage as example.
This whole “assisted marriage” (across the oceans) thing is only going to work in a situation where the woman is in America and the man in India. For women in India the norm is either an arranged marriage or a love marriage.
Most people scorn at women seen in public with a man they haven’t married or are not going to marry. Their reputations are “tarnished” and this is a big reason why girls there wouldn’t care for “assisted marriage”. She would probably talk to you on the phone for hours but refuse to be seen in public with you unless she’s made up her mind and knows you have too.
For men in India the case is a little different. They aren’t labeled anything for being seen with a woman.
My point being – The way things are this whole “assisted marriage” thing wouldn’t work in India or across the oceans unless its a scenario I mentioned in the first sentence.
I am so sorry.
Muralimannered…I believe there is something referred to as the Dyadic Adjustment Scale, a test for assessing the quality of marriage and other similar two-individual relationships. It’s a 32 item scale still under some scrutiny, but has by far the highest validity and reliability factors while relationship research continues. As I’m sure many people here have already seen, there have also been many studies comparing the relative physical and emotional health of married, single, and divorced individuals with varying results (depending on what health hype magazine you find it in….).
Clueless, I am so sorry you had that experience and am glad that you were at least able to prevent it from happening to those you love, while gaining another to be part of your life.
Clueless… Very sorry for you. Peace.
I think the hardest arrangements are the one’s we make with ourselves.