I Love Siouxsie’s Version, I do.

Allow me to sum up the Slate article I’m about to blog in four words:

Arranged marriages don’t suck.

There, was that so difficult to admit?

Dear Prudie,
I am a 30-year-old single woman who has been living in the United States for the past few years. I am considered smart, successful, and attractive and have an interesting and fulfilling life. But my family, who live in India, are worried that I’m still single, and have been trying to arrange my marriage. While I do want to be married, I’ve had a couple of relationships that didn’t work out; I’ve been very independent and have lived life on my own terms—so I now find it hard to go through the arranged marriage setup. I know my parents will never force me to marry someone I don’t like, but the idea of having an arranged marriage seems archaic and almost mortifying. I’d also like to believe that marriages should be based in love and there should be an element of romance involved. My mother thinks that as long as two people have a certain compatibility and mutual respect, love can happen later. What should I do?
—Confused

Wait- wot’s this? Someone who isn’t second gen can be “confused”? Shocking. Utterly astonishing, I tell you. 😉 I thought we American Born-types had a monopoly on bewilderment.

Dear Confused,
Now that I have a daughter, I’ve come to see the wisdom of arranged marriages. What’s she going to know about picking a mate? Right now, I have a few candidates I’m keeping my eye on—since my daughter is only 11, I have plenty of time to monitor how these boys turn out. You say you would like to find a husband, but haven’t been successful at it. I understand your aversion to the idea of an arranged marriage, but as long as everyone understands you will not be pressured to wed the guy, why not see who your parents come up with? Certainly their knowledge of you, the young man, and the qualities two people need to get along has to be as good as the algorithms of Match.com. Yes, there is an archaic quality to the notion of being introduced to someone you are supposed to marry, but that’s the ultimate, if unstated, goal of most fix-ups. As for romance versus compatibility—you and your mother are both right. If you meet the man in question and you two fall in love, what a story of romantic destiny! And romance without compatibility and mutual respect—no matter how you two got together—is destined to be a relationship that didn’t work out.
—Prudie

Wow, not only do arranged marriages not suck– neither did Prudence’s take on them! And no mention of henna, spices or a mango anywhere! This is a landmark moment in the history of how arranged marriages are perceived in America. A mainstream columnist grokked the concept better than a brownie did; she realized that really, it’s more about the “assist” than the “arrange” and she didn’t get all westernized-aggro on our kundis about oppressive traditions, in fact, she basically asked, “What’s the harm?”. If you’ll pardon me, I’m going to go faint now, from the refreshing lack of orientalism/sensationalism/um…narrow-mindedness…ism.

::

Thanks for the tip, fish-eyed one. 🙂

231 thoughts on “I Love Siouxsie’s Version, I do.

  1. But I’m on Moornam’s side on this.

    Damn, this is huge. This is almost like Cassius Clay’s joining the Nation of Islam, total reversal.

  2. I guess I’m going to be the cynic here, and ask what difference it makes whether Clueless’s story is his own, or simply a retelling of something that happened to someone else. The issues raised are still relevant for discussion, aren’t they?

  3. The next time someone accuses us of being cliqueish, I’m going to point them to this thread and say it’s not us, it’s some of our commenters. I am disappointed in those of you who would continue to “call someone out” even after we have intervened to say that he is not a troll. MFunnierthanyou, good for you for having the grace to admit your error and apologize. I wish more were as mature and sensitive as you.

    MoorNam and Jane of All Trades, please stop it. If you have your doubts, keep them to yourselves. No one wants or needs to hear about them. You are wrong and trying to “build your case” as a means of explanation is inappropriate. It’s not fair of you to gang up on someone needlessly and it isn’t right to make this space unsafe for others, lest they worry that you two would judge them and accuse them of being fake. Did you stop and think about that? Your actions might prevent someone from interacting with others here, because really, the last thing a victim needs is more pain. Further comments about whether or not someone is “real” will be deleted.

  4. And just whom do you plan on reporting me to, MoorNam? Are you seriously comparing my moderating a thread to a cop brutalizing a suspect? That doesn’t trivialize the latter at all.

    You can’t ever accept that you’re wrong, can you? Pity.

  5. Thanks SM Intern and Amitbah

    If anybody wants to asks any questions they can email me.

    Moornam you are right about one thing, I can’t spell to save my live.

    For those people who think I’m making this story up. Why would I be the 1st person to comment on this story?

  6. I love Prudie. I wait for her new post every Thursday! There, I’ve admitted it!

    She gives really honest advice and that is why I thought it was great that she gave an open minded perspective toward arranged marriage. I don’t know much about Clueless’ situation, but I do think its strange that people expect his perspective to sound more “female”.

    In terms of my experience with the pressures of marriage, women seem to get it from 18-35, whereas men seem to start getting it more from 28-30+. However, even though the incubation period is shorter, it seems to be more intense. I actually do know a Gujarti guy who is in his 40s, who was raised in America and was forced into an arranged marriage with someone he didn’t want to marry. He is also still in it, and has 2 kids. I think if some of us 1.5 gens came here in the late 60s or early 70s, the perspective would have been very different. I am not trying to underplay the pressure on women, but have come to understand that guys get a lot of it too.

    For another perspective on arranged marriage, does anyone know what happened to that guy AC who had a blog that was devoted to the ups and downs of his arranged marriage? He was HILARIOUS! Please comeback if you are out there!

    -The Fish Eyed One (You’re welcome, A N N A)

  7. Seeker (#106), I don’t think this is a strictly Punjabi (or Punjabi Sikh) thing. I’ve met many desi women who get married young. Just depends on their parents, where they’re located, personal attitudes/pressures, etc. Many of them felt that they wanted to be married straight out of college or whatnot, so they went for the arranged thing. They felt it was a faster way to meet people and decide. None of them were forced into marriages. Some are happy, some are less happy. I think this is the same for “love marriages.” I would hope that if people’s parents respected their wishes, they would not “pimp” their children on the “suitable girl/boy” circuit. That said, I think a lot of parents are just looking out for the kids and want the best for them (what they think is the best for their kid is, of course, debatable).

    At the end of the day, I think it’s really important for us to untangle “arranged” (meaning match-maker style) versus “arranged” (meaning forced from birth) marriages. I know we said we’d talk about the former, but I want to reiterate that because I think our own conflation of the two terms makes it hard to have relevant conversations about the topic it hand, which is match-maker style marriages.

    But what I’m curious is, can other Punjabi’s relate similar stories? or at least the existence of them? 20 seems quite young for a male, even in the most backwards of backwards cultures. I’m not doubting the account, just wondering if it’s commonplace or an aberration.

    HMF, yes and no. I have not met any GUY (from the U.S./Canada) who was “forced” into a marriage. That said, I have several 2nd/3rd gen. female friends who are told by their parents that they must get married before they go to college or they won’t be allowed to go. I’ve also had a few friends who chose to live at home after they graduate and then are told by their families that they must get married within 2 years or they’ll have to live on their own (the obvious underlying message is that they’ll be kicked out of the family). While I think it’s deeply sexist and ridiculous, I can understand where this comes from, even if I think it’s totally off-base. I know this may not conform to strict force, but I think threatening someone with disassociation, family exile, or jeopardizing their education/economic security is a pretty good indicator of methods of coercion.

    That said, I have even more 2nd gen. desi friends who don’t have this experience. I think it depends on the family, and on the girl!

    But like I said, I have NEVER IN MY LIFE heard of a guy being pressured to get married at such a young age. Probably this is b/c of the whole “first get a career and be secure before you get settled” mentality that is tagged onto men. Just my conjecture.

  8. However, even though the incubation period is shorter, it seems to be more intense.

    This loadbalancing is an important point, for women, the pressure is, “get married before you can no longer have children” for men, it’s “get married before you’re too old to be marketable” Of course, there’s a “too young to be marketable” age as well, hence the shorter timespan, and pressure cooker like behavior.

    I believe the male pressure is more of a “you’re not doing your duty to large scale society” variety, whereas the female pressure is “you’ll be unprotected and uncared for” Different pressure, one’s not necessarily greater than the other.

    Some people have said it’s not necessarily an east/west [hemisphere, not coast] thing, rather a rural/city thing. I’ve spent a great deal of time in rural America (so when I dog it, I do so from observed information), and I have yet to notice anything remotely close to an arranged/assisted system. There is of course the shotgun system, but that’s usually for accidental pregnancies. Because, getting married and not having an abortion is the “Christian” thing to do..

    Did JC authorize holding a gun to the groom’s head? We don’t worry ourselves with those little details.

  9. I was talking to my father the other day and he said, “I want to show you this passage from this book I’m reading by Benjamin Disraeli”. He is a stanch believer in arranged marriages because he really believes that the Indian system is responsible for the supposed higher stability of the Indian institution of marriage.

    I wish I had the exact quote, but the gist of it was basically this: “Marrying for love is foolish because by the time you get to the altar, the love is all used up.” It’s implied later in the passage that if you get an arranged marriage, at least you can discover the love later so it will be there while you’re actually married.

    I’ve had one non-Indian girlfriend and one Indian girlfriend. Neither one worked out. I’m ashamed to say it but I started my second relationship more because the person was Indian, she had many great qualities, and I wanted to see if I could grow to love her (I knew she was interested). I found out I could not.

    A lot of 2nd gen Indians I know, who are very adept at living the “dual life”, have been brainwashed into accepting the Indian system at some level, deep within their psyche. I know that’s why my first relationship failed, because the topic of culture clashes / eating habits in family gatherings / etc would come up often, and for some reason these things are very important to me. I know this drama plays out frequently in Indian / non-Indian relationships. However, in my second relationship I found I was violently internally opposed to the idea of giving myself the time to fall for someone.

    So I guess my point is that what works for a person has almost everything to do with their mindset. If I was like Disraeli, I probably could have made my second relationship work. If I was a less fobby ABD, I probably would have been able to make the first relationship work. Unfortunately, because of the “dual life”, right now I find myself both resisting assisted marriage and also yearning for a perfect match along all biodata rows, which is honestly the most restrictive position to be in. Ain’t life grand?

  10. To all those skeptics:

    I grew up in Northern California and was raised with Sikhs, not Malayalees. I used to live near Yuba City. I went to Davis. All Sikh, Sikh, Sikh. There WERE 20-year old guys who were pressured in to getting married on a trip to the pind. There were even younger girls who faced similar; my best friend in college ran away from an arranged marriage she was supposed to enter at age 18. Just because it didn’t happen to you or those whom you know, that doesn’t make it any less real or any more deserving of scorn, contempt, skepticism.

    Enough.

  11. You can’t ever accept that you’re wrong, can you? Pity.

    and the intern delivers the final knockout punch!!!

  12. ANNA,

    I don’t think my question had any scorn in it, sorry if it did, but it was a genuine curiosity of a community that I don’t know about. If someone posts something out of the ordinary, I think it’s a reasonable question to ask whether its commonplace in any sort of setting or situation (e.g. Punjabi community).

    What is the Pind?

  13. HMF, that wasn’t aimed just at you, several people seemed incredulous about it. Thanks for clarifying your intentions…anything which makes this thread less toxic is awesome, at this point.

  14. HMF – being “from the pind” means “from the village.” Whether or not it’s derogatory depends on the context (e.g., I’ve had several Punjabi taxi drivers ask me what my parents’ pind/shaher (village/city) is.”

    ANNA, I also did not mean any offense or disbelief of Clueless’s story. I just meant to address HMF’s question regarding whether it was common for Punjabis in the diaspora to experience marital pressure. I should have contextualized that many of my friends are from the Bay and Central Valley, but the fact that many of us met in college also means I don’t meet many of the men and women who experienced these situations.

    Was just trying to provide more context. Apologies if it came off as disbelieving or discrediting.

  15. Some people have said it’s not necessarily an east/west [hemisphere, not coast] thing, rather a rural/city thing. I’ve spent a great deal of time in rural America (so when I dog it, I do so from observed information), and I have yet to notice anything remotely close to an arranged/assisted system. There is of course the shotgun system, but that’s usually for accidental pregnancies. Because, getting married and not having an abortion is the “Christian” thing to do..

    I was the one who said it was a rural thing…but I meant rural INDIA (and I asked about Sri Lanka too)…I wasn’t talking about rural AMERICA which is a whole different situation and culture.

  16. Oh, God, Clueless,

    My heart goes out to you. Your comments make me want to cry. It’s just because, now I have a little son, and I would never in a million years allow him to be pushed into a marriage at the young age of 20. I mean, you are usually not even out of college! My husband and his brother were both advised not to marry before the age of 25 so they could at least be on their feet in the world. Before I had children, I thought of people in their 20s as peers, but then after my daughter, I saw them as children. I know, legally they are adults, but there is still so much left for them to grow through. My husband and I met in college and have been together for more than a decade too, but we chose each other, discussed the future, and came to a decision together (married later) and I think it would have been terrible to have been forced to marry at that young age, even for love. 20 year old kids are just not ready for that. I’m glad you have your daughter. Children are wonderful. I hope that whatever happens in your life, that you get the chance to be happy, and have what you want, and I wish that for your wife as well.

  17. I was the one who said it was a rural thing…but I meant rural INDIA (and I asked about Sri Lanka too)…I wasn’t talking about rural AMERICA which is a whole different situation and culture.

    Understood. But some other people have also surmised the same behavior takes place in rural America as well.

  18. For those who don’t know I born and raised in area where out of 75,000 people, at least 98% of the people were white and there were only 20 desi families all but a couple of them punjabi. The thing is that I had very little exposure to punjabi culture and the few times I did, it want in one ear and out the other.

    Hey, Clueless, I think know how you felt. I grew up in a (mid-sized) city where most people were white or Mexican-American (NOT a variety of other Hispanics like in NYC). There were only a handful of Bangladeshi families; all the others were single, (mostly) male grad students at local university. We didn’t hang out much- once in a few months (after we weren’t kids anymore, and started to get on each other’s nerves). Yes, I have heard of a few stories where parents want their ABCD or 1.5 gen kids to marry someone from Bangladesh (or old country, as I say) b/c they wanted to keep the culture alive. When I lived in the Phoenix area, an 18 year old from wealthy family told me that he didn’t need to speak Bengali b/c “my parents are going to find me a wife who will teach our kids all that.” LOL!!!

  19. Understood. But some other people have also surmised the same behavior takes place in rural America as well.

    Well, I would say that even in rural or backwoods America, people tend to get married fairly young, and probably a higher percentage of people do get married, as compared to urban/suburban middle class folks. But A LOT end up divorcing and then becoming single parents, who usually proceed to have numerous affairs and inflict their choice of serial love interests on their poor kids who have no choice but to accept the situation.

  20. Actually Clueless’s story is not that unusual for Sikhs living in the Yuba City area in California or around Vancouver.

    My best friend in college in Punjab was from the Nakodar area in the Punjab and her family was split into two halves with her dad living permanently in Vancouver (actually the rural bit). Her brother was married off at 21 so that her mother could have a female companion on the farm in Nakodar. It was a really poignant story and saddest bit I thought (in retrospect of course) was that her brother was scared to sleep on the farm veranda by himself but they thought he was old enough to get married. This was in the early 80s.

    This same friend eventually moved to Vancouver and fell in love with another Sikh guy at a technical college. Both sides opposed the marriage for 5 years as they were from different Sikh subcastes. Death threats were issued, etc…her parents stopped speaking to her. Eventually, she married the guy but her parents have cut her out of their lives…their only daughter.

    Also, I’ve been friends with a Sikh woman in the US now for 20 years…she was imprisoned in her aunt’s house for 6 months in the Central Valley when her dad found out that she had a Sikh boyfriend in 11th grade. He wasn’t from the same subcaste so her dad took her to India against her wishes when she was barely 17 and married her to a guy who was 21 and in his second last year of engineering school. My friend’s dad told her that she could not return to the US unless she married someone for the same subcaste in India….She didn’t graduate out of high school and the marriage eventually ended in divorce after 9 years. This was in the mid-eighties.

    Oh and in my own family…my dad’s first cousins in the Chicago area are hardcore Khalistanis. When their daughter and son turned 20, each was taken to India and married off to kids from the Punjab villages because you know otherwise “they will slip out of their hands” due to the evil influence of Amrika. One of them is now divorced with 3 year old and dropped out of medical school coz her husband from the Punjab couldn’t stand it and the other loathes India with a passion to be seen to be believed.

    sp

  21. Jesus, Clueless. I can’t even imagine going through something like this.

    I guess I had a very different experience from most of you; I wasn’t really raised in a dual culture, I was pretty much raised as an American. My parents are entirely secular, and quite apathetic to the whole Indian community thing. Our family friends aren’t all Indian (although many are), they were Iranian, Jewish, Chinese, Black, and White. The only traditions in our house were the ones we made up. Its a good thing and its a bad; I’m going on a solo India-exploration trip this summer, because I really am beginning to feel like I should know my roots, at least a little.

    I feel like in order for a (traditional) arranged marriage to work at all, both the partners have to be raised in a traditional culture. I feel like my background is much like Clueless’s; I also was raised in a town that had almost no Indians, steeped in Western culture, very little knowledge of Indian culture. Someone who grows up expecting to be able to look around and find a mate on their own simply will not have a successful arranged marriage. I know I’d fail terribly. There’s a girl in a class of mine who is 23 and is getting married next fall — I cannot imagine taking such a huge step so early in life! Kudos to those who can, but its simply not for me.

  22. Sonya #175,

    Is this sort of thing common only to Sikhs? Because the word Punjabi is thrown around a lot in such posts. I rarely see Hindu Punjabis with these kinds of problems (although there are some cases).

    M. Nam

  23. I feel like in order for a (traditional) arranged marriage to work at all, both the partners have to be raised in a traditional culture.

    Maybe, but I think tradition is less important than having a similar sort of upbringing and background. This is completely anecdotal, but I have friends who were raised in fairly Westernized/secular households, and ended up having arranged/assisted marriages with men who had also been raised in fairly Westernized/secular households. They seem to be quite happy with their marriages.

  24. My parents were very western for a punjabi family in North America. Sikhism and punjabi culture did not play a major factor in my parents life. Also my parents had friends of other races, which is very rare among most punjabi’s in Canada.

    It was these factor’s that some older backward people in my family used to pressure my parents into me getting married.

  25. Sonya #175, Is this sort of thing common only to Sikhs? Because the word Punjabi is thrown around a lot in such posts. I rarely see Hindu Punjabis with these kinds of problems (although there are some cases). M. Nam

    Like someone else said, it seems to be more of a rural issue than a cultural issue. I’ve seen cases like the one Sonya mentioned as well and all of those families moved to America from villages vs. larger cities. I’m not saying these incidents happen with all families from villages or vice versa – but there is definitely a pattern.

  26. Is this sort of thing common only to Sikhs? Because the word Punjabi is thrown around a lot in such posts. I rarely see Hindu Punjabis with these kinds of problems (although there are some cases).

    I think in the context that we are discussing these issues, in terms of adherence to caste, and intense family pressures, social pressures from the rest of the community, etc. it is more of a Sikh thing than a Hindu Punjabi phenomenon. This goes back to my rural-urban theory…almost 90% of rural Punjab is Sikh, whereas only 25-30% of urban Punjab is Sikh. So Hindu Punjabis are an overwhelmingly urban community. Additionally, there are nowhere near the numbers of Hindu Punjabis in the West as there are Sikhs. Also, many many Hindu Punjabis (if not most) in the West are descendents of people who left urban areas of Pakistani Punjab in 1947, and moved either to urban areas of Indian Punjab or more likely New Delhi, before eventually migrating here. Their cultural patterns are quite different to those of their rural Sikh brethren.

  27. Moornam

    Is this sort of thing common only to Sikhs? Because the word Punjabi is thrown around a lot in such posts. I rarely see Hindu Punjabis with these kinds of problems (although there are some cases).

    It is not just the Sikhs. The examples are from my own experience, which is Sikh Punjabi even though I myself don’t live immersed in a Punjabi culture here in the Bay Area. I think a lot of confluences must come together for something like this to happen: religion, at what point did one leave India, general progressiveness versus clinging to one’s customs/faith/religion beyond reason, fear of the unknown, educational levels (though this is not an indicator of progressiveness) and so forth.

    I do know that the motel-owning Patel community in the United States does something very similar…to keep property and kids in control, they are frequently known to marry off their kids as young as 16. About 10 years ago, someone did a cultural anthropolgy thesis (Masters or Ph.D, I can’t remember) and I remember reading the thesis.

    sp

  28. One more thing on my Dad’s cousins in the midwest…

    Two younger cousins after watching the lives of the first set of cousins destruct, now openly say that they will never consider arranged (read coerced) marriages with women from India.

    My dad’s cousin told us the last time he was in India that the two younger grandsons openly say that they don’t want their lives ruined like the two older ones had theirs ruined.

    sp

  29. I do know that the motel-owning Patel community in the United States does something very similar…to keep property and kids in control, they are frequently known to marry off their kids as young as 16. About 10 years ago, someone did a cultural anthropolgy thesis (Masters or Ph.D, I can’t

    Yes. And most of them hail from villages in Gujarat.

  30. I went to India in January for my cousin’s wedding. He’s 27, my new cousin-in-law is 20, 6 months older than me. After being molested by this guy went I was younger, I am terrified for her because she’s one of those “good girls” that has no opinion on anything and will do whatever anyone tells her. I hope one day she grows a brain, but until then it’s not like I can say anything to her that will help her. Maturity comes when it comes, you know?

    I’m not asking for pity here, believe me. I feel blessed that I have a brain and half a choice when it comes to marriage. It’s just that I never thought something like this would happen in my own family, and I can’t really talk to anybody in my family about it because they’re all ecstatic that he got married and would like to believe that they’ll live happily ever after. The whole “ignorance is bliss” angle, I guess. That’s a pity.

  31. Speaking from Bangladeshi-American perspective (emphasis on the American, of course)… My parents (50s) are friends with an educated, liberal, older couple (60s) who came to small college town in Midwest almost 40 years ago (v. rare for our peeps). They had 4 kids (now in their 40s and 30s), BUT the eldest daughter is the only one w/ 2 failed (arranged) marriages; she has 2 kids to show from the 1st. The other 3 married white folks they met through school or work, and seem pretty happy. They grew up in a white community, so no big deal! Last year, the eldest lady got married to a Sikh-American colleague from work.

  32. 127:

    #126: Other than for Brahmins, caste is not nearly as strong a factor anymore as it is in other south asian cultures. I’ve read this sentence five times now, and I still don’t understand what it means.”

    135:

    It means – I want to be an anti-brahmin troll. Hence I will make incomprehensible equalities like “brahmin” being a “south asian culture”.

    Sorry, I guess I didn’t clarify. By “south asian cultures”, I meant ‘Sri-Lankan Tamils”, who Amitabh referred to in the comment I quoted:

    “I’d be interested in knowing if Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada, who also often have a rural origin in Sri Lanka, are as strict when it comes to their 2nd gen kids’ marriages.”

    What I meant was that caste is not as major an issue in marriage for the Sri-Lankan Tamil diaspora in North America as it is for other “south asian cultures” like Gujuratis, Punjabis, etc. in North America. However, Sri-Lankan Tamil Brahmins are the exception, as caste is still quite a major issue for them in regards to marriage, as opposed to Sri-Lankan Tamil non-brahmins.

    Hope this cleared that up for you guys. Not sure where that whole “anti-brahmin troll” thing came from. Perhaps you guys shouldn’t be so quick to jump to conclusions?

  33. Sorry, but I forgot to ask this question before: How are Sikhs broken down into separate castes? I thought that there was no caste system in Sikhism. I had a former classmate in college, who was Punjabi Sikh, and she said that her family would want her to marry a Punjabi. There were many white converts in her gurdwara, but she said she wouldn’t go out with them. Isn’t that about cultural background, not caste?

  34. There should be no caste in sikhism. But punjabi culture has the caste system. The sad part is too many punjabi sikh’s practice the caste system.

  35. There should be no caste in sikhism. But punjabi culture has the caste system. The sad part is too many punjabi sikh’s practice the caste system.

    There should be no caste discrimination in Sikhism, but do any out the gurus actually reject caste itself? curious to know…

  36. There should be no caste discrimination in Sikhism, but do any out the gurus actually reject caste itself? curious to know…

    Yes, explicitly. That’s why caste names were abolished, so that there would be no markers.

  37. @mfunnierthanyou, #185: your cousin is despicable, and I’m sorry for what you’ve gone through. Is there any way to maybe send his wife (or maybe his parents?) an anonymous letter? It might not change their opinion of him, but it’s a warning, and it might plant a little seed of doubt…

    Stuff like that – parents that are blind to their child’s jackassery – is what worries me more than a little. It makes me a little queasy, but I’ve decided not to unequivocally close the door on arranged/assisted marriage. It COULD work out, especially within the parameters in which Prudie seems to understand the practice.

    I don’t know if my qualms are unique or shared (probably a bit of both): I’ve grown up in Canada, and like Clueless, my parents’ ideas of ‘how the world works’ are very firmly rooted in the small-town punjab of half a century ago (I don’t see this as a flaw, just as a point of constant perspectival negotiation between us). Anyways, long story short: on the one hand, I’d like to be a good daughter to my parents (they’ve been good parents to me!); on the other hand, I’m into what might be considered a ‘western’ embrace of openness when it comes to setting restrictions on my behaviour. I don’t think my family take well to my interest in queer culture/practices, amongst other things, let alone take this into consideration when searching for a partner. HMF’s comments early in this thread ring true for me: my relatives are interested in a “good family” (assuming that said family would have a good son). Also, having lived in Canada for so many years, the family is a little disconnected, with the exception of a few aunts that are into the old-school variety of engagement.

    It is probably WAY too late in this thread to open a new little can of worms… but I would appreciate any thoughts.

  38. I don’t think my family take well to my interest in queer culture/practices, amongst other things, let alone take this into consideration when searching for a partner.

    Yeah…that one might be a little tough. You’re interested in marrying a desi man?Who is essentially straight but wants to explore queer culture and practices with you? And your family should be on board? That’s a lot to ask. I’d suggest in order to find the kind of person you’re looking for.. you’ll probably have to do it on your own, and accept the probability he may not be a desi.

  39. hey clueless, sorry for your traumatic experience :(. My heart goes out to you and your family.

  40. There should be no caste discrimination in Sikhism, but do any out the gurus actually reject caste itself? curious to know…

    Yes. This is part of the reasoning behind the name changes (Kaur/Singh), the religious teachings around ancestry, the concept and practice of langar (pehla pangat phir sangat, which I would roughly translate to “first langar, then the religious community”). It’s also why we all sit on the same level to eat and pray in the gurdwara.

    Emma, it sounds like your anecdote is very much more about people’s personal opinions vs. the teachings of the religion. Clueless also nailed it when he mentioned that there are ideals in Sikhi, but many times the ideal doesn’t match the reality or practice on the ground.

    As Sonya and Amitabh mentioned, a lot of these trends seem to be more prevalent in rural areas – both in India and in the U.S. I’m not sure what contributes to this, but oftentimes it feels, to me, like two different communities/worldviews unfold.

  41. There should be no caste in sikhism. But punjabi culture has the caste system. The sad part is too many punjabi sikh’s practice the caste system.

    And do they ever! Gujarati Patels seem to be notorious for being so self-righteous but I think Sikh Jatts are worse. Most would rather have their kids marry ANYONE (black, white, yellow, blue, green, whatever) than marry a Punjabi Sikh who is not a Jatt. Of course I speak only from my own experience, but I have yet to meet a Jatt who said they would/could marry a non-Jatt Punjabi.

  42. Apologies for the mass quoting and reactions but I’m catching up after a few days offline…

    Oh and in my own family…my dad’s first cousins in the Chicago area are hardcore Khalistanis. When their daughter and son turned 20, each was taken to India and married off to kids from the Punjab villages because you know otherwise “they will slip out of their hands” due to the evil influence of Amrika. One of them is now divorced with 3 year old and dropped out of medical school coz her husband from the Punjab couldn’t stand it and the other loathes India with a passion to be seen to be believed.

    Sad stories…I know a Punjabi Sikh girl who had a boyfriend when she was 16, and when her parents found out they forced them to get married…when she was 16! They were from Yuba City…I am so glad my family didn’t grow up in an area where there were a lot of Punjabis. I go to UC Davis now and have a Punjabi Sikh roomie from Yuba…God she gets on my nerves like no other! She’s afraid to go in the sun because she’ll “get dark.”

    I wonder if her illegal status can be changed b/c of marriage!

    I believe so, as there are far too many cases of people who are here illegally using citizens to marry them to become legalized. My best friend’s ex-boyfriend was counting on her for his status to change so never bothered getting his own life together…he got what he deserved when she left him hanging, if you ask me. He was an asshole.

    HMF, that study is so old, it’s almost ineligible for an arranged marriage. 😉

    Cute!

    You’re doing that anyway, arranged marriage or not. On the flip side, he’s marrying your family too.

    Not as much as you’re marrying his though…essentially, by tradition, you’re joining his family, not the other way around

    Who better than my parents who love me, know me, and want someone who’ll take care of me & cherish me?

    You’re lucky though. There are a lot of (backward) families that care more about what other people think of them than about what their children want.

    ps. Is it wrong that I obtained my mother’s email address password for the purpose of inspecting (and filtering) the biodata she receives?

    haha more power to you…

    Not that I distrust the story or source or anything, but to be truthful, the quoted statement holds an iota of truth with me. I’ve thought the poster was female all this time as well. But what I’m curious is, can other Punjabi’s relate similar stories? or at least the existence of them? 20 seems quite young for a male, even in the most backwards of backwards cultures. I’m not doubting the account, just wondering if it’s commonplace or an aberration.

    I know of a Punjabi Sikh boy who went to India and married when he was 21 and the woman was 19…does that help?

    5. When a commentary that tantamounts to “I cry myself to sleep every night” comes from a man, it is highly unbelievable. Men deal with their issues differently.
    A 30+ year old man who does not get angry when his deepest feelings are rejected as a fraud? Unusual.

    You place your expectations of how people should react based on gender. Contrary to what this macho, sexist society would have you believing, men do have emotions too and just because they are discouraged from expressing it that does not mean that they don’t still have them. Men cry too you know, and not all of them are too insecure about their masculinity to admit it.

  43. Allright – let me try this again….

    In the phrase “Arranged marriage”, the first word is redundant. Marriage itself has meaning only when it is arranged. That is, you get to fuck someone who is chosen by others(parents/society) and you surrender your individuality(to a great extent) for the common good.

    Once you take this out of the picture, marriage is meaningless. The term “Love Marriage” is meaningless. Those who are in love don’t need to get married (unless they want Social Security/Medicare etc).

    Purush said earlier on that even those who are not arranged need to marry for : love, old-age companionship, long-term planning, stable environment for kids, propogation of the species

    My point is: Why do you need to get married for all that? You can both just live together and have it all. Marriage is necessary only if you need outside sanction – when you fell in love you repudiated the necessity for that sanction – otherwise you would have checked with your parents/society/church before going out on a date.

    The whole idea of (Arranged) marriage is that without the aid of parents/society etc, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to have old-age companionship, long-term planning, stable environment for kids, propogation of the species etc etc.

    The whole idea of Love (marriage) is that Love conquers everything.

    Choose one and stick with it.

    M. Nam

  44. MoorNam( # 198) ,

    Your logic about marriage being meaningless/redundant unless it is “arranged” suffers from a fatal flaw.Sure,if you are in love you do not have to get married. However,your assertion about repudiating the need for outside sanction when you fall in love is – pardon the expression – BS. Just because you fall in love with someone who neither society nor your parents chose for you, does that mean that you are forsaking all other relationships? It does not.And to include those relationships in your new one , you sometimes do need marriage.I speak from personal experience – I fell in love and wanted for us to live together.My partner – and now husband – insisted that we should get married because his parents would have freaked out. ( This was back in India)

    Love conquering all is a romantic notion.The reality is that most of us do need parents/society because we can’t live in isolation.

  45. arranged marriage rocks. i have been in l.a. for three years and been with fourteen girls. i have carried on relationships with girls without having to break off others and no one has asked and no one has told. while some of these girls have displayed characteristics i would like in a wife, ultimately they are not what i want to settle down with. none of them have been desis either, not that i have not tried hard to get action within my race. my point is that just as someone mentioned, with one call i can have my mom on the case of finding me a beautiful indian girl with whom i can return to family life (ie the family oriented lifestyle i used to lead before i moved to l.a.). i am not sure why everyone stresses over arranged marriage so much, especially the guys. instead of being “trapped between two highly different culutures” go between the lines and take the best from each culture and learn to chill.

  46. 200 · canada on April 15, 2007 01:13 PM · Direct link arranged marriage rocks. i have been in l.a. for three years and been with fourteen girls. i have carried on relationships with girls without having to break off others and no one has asked and no one has told. while some of these girls have displayed characteristics i would like in a wife, ultimately they are not what i want to settle down with. none of them have been desis either, not that i have not tried hard to get action within my race. my point is that just as someone mentioned, with one call i can have my mom on the case of finding me a beautiful indian girl with whom i can return to family life (ie the family oriented lifestyle i used to lead before i moved to l.a.). i am not sure why everyone stresses over arranged marriage so much, especially the guys. instead of being “trapped between two highly different culutures” go between the lines and take the best from each culture and learn to chill.

    This exemplifies another issue with arranged marriage and how it benefits men more than women…men can call their mamas up when they want a homely “virginal” Indian wife, and until then they take it upon themselves to fuck around. 99.9% of men are incapable of holding themselves to the same standards they expect women to follow.