Oh this is too rich. Thank you, thank you, thank you to tipster IslandGirl for placing on the news tab the story about the reams of confidential visa application info that the Indian Consulate in San Francisco sent off for recycling to an open-air facility that doesn’t shred, and where anybody can stroll in off the street. The San Francisco Chronicle did just that.
Thousands of visa applications and other sensitive documents, including paperwork submitted by top executives and political figures, sat for more than a month in the open yard of a San Francisco recycling center after they were dumped there by the city’s Indian Consulate.
The documents, which security experts say represented a potential treasure trove for identity thieves or terrorists, finally were hauled away Wednesday after The Chronicle inspected the site and questioned officials at the consulate and the recycling facility.
Among the papers were visa applications submitted by Byron Pollitt, chief financial officer of San Francisco’s Gap Inc., and Anne Gust, wife of California Attorney General Jerry Brown.
The best part, though, are the tin-ear responses by the various Indian consular officials. There’s a semantic argument:
Information on the documents includes applicants’ names, addresses, phone numbers, birth dates, professions, employers, passport numbers and photos. Accompanying letters detail people’s travel plans and reasons for visiting India.
“As we see it, the documents are not confidential,” said B.S. Prakash, the consul general. “We would see something as confidential if it has a Social Security number or a credit card number, not a passport number.”
A cultural argument:
At the Indian Consulate, Consul General Prakash said there may be a cultural dimension to the level of outrage related to the incident among Western visa applicants.
“In India, I would not be alarmed,” he said. “We have grown up giving such information in many, many places. We would not be so worried if someone had our passport number.”
An environmental argument:
Deputy Consul General Sircar said that in other countries, Indian officials are able to go to the roofs of their offices and burn documents they’re no longer able to store.
“In America, you cannot do that,” he said.
All this stuff was sitting out there, in boxes marked “Visa Applications” at an open-access, community recycling center in Haight-Ashbury. I’m waiting for them to blame Nancy Pelosi!
priceless. as rich as dum(b) aloo.
this is seriously! not! funny! and the reaction is way stoopid – reflects a typically non-dhandha (business) orientation. even a shopkeeper in bigcowpooppur knows that you lose trust and you lose bijhnaiss. somebody need a hurt real bad.
Not blaming the messenger – but David Lazarus of SF Chronicle has a well known reputation for hyping up security and ID theft issues. Who can forget how he hyped up the Pakistani medical transcript lady who threatened to publish data on the Internet if she is not paid. Instead of going after her US employers, Lazarus went on a witch hunt “Your medical data is not safe! See that Paki is trying to put it on the Internet”
Valid points, but at some point one has to draw a line and understand that we have not seen the days yet of a streetvendor selling personal information / medical information yet despite the hype created by security-privacy-company paid apologists like David Lazarus.
Lazarus’s anti-outsourcing position using “privacy” bogey is also well known and he has tried several times to put pressure on Congressmen to bring anti-outsourcing, anti-offshoring legislations.
He is just another lobbyist for computer security companies…just search in Google for his articles on WellsFargo, BoFA etc. Doomsday scenario created by likes of Lazarus has not become reality yet.
That said, babus of Indian Cons General in SF need some basic training on data destruction. I hope their computers are still not stuck in Windows 98. Cons General Prakash is a smart, well-read and well-travelled man, so I am bit surprised at this oversight.
The Indian Consulate is lucky that this story has come out at a time when the city is mostly occupied with the Mayor’s affair with his married secretary (and wife of his reelection campaign manager), so attention is elsewhere!
I find it somewhat annoying that they focus on the celebs who could have been harmed, like the GAP COO.
You cant make this shit up..only desis are able to come up with these priceless statements! The one in NYC, on 64th is it?, functions horribly and is completely unorganized. Its all about ‘who you know’ to get your work done quicker..some things never change
It’s so easy for identity theft to occur… for someone to walk right in and get a copy of someone else’s birth certificate. Sh*t like this is just making it easier.
You’re quite welcome. Definitely newsworthy, didn’t realize it was blogworthy =)
If there was an award for ludicrous statements, this would get top honors.
Heh. Desi bureaucracy at its very best.
I do think the point about cultural differences is very interested. It makes me wonder what they do with old documents in New Delhi. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear they just sell the stuff by the kilo to a local kabbadiwallah.
One day, you buy yourself some channa in the train, and it comes wrapped in your own passport application!
wait. hold up. you’re focusing on the gap or the fashionbanana crowd – the two ‘celebs’ were profiled because the cfo and the attorney general are roles that are more sensitive ot identity theft issues than most others. this story was meant to hurt and it’s a good thing.
i hope indian business get the flame under their collective arse and pull some strings in new delhi to get these bungholes in sf to apologize publicly and clean up their act.
there’s a fair bit of big corporates in SF alone, let alone the broader bay area to make this a matter of concern – i’m thinking earthlink, wells fargo, levis off the top of my head. imagine this – you’re trying to outsource some business process to india and the guys in india are working their tail off getting the locals to believe that biz standards are up to snuff – and then the Cfo of their client gets his personal details plastered all over the garbage dump.
These chumps need to be transferred out pronto to the outpost in antactica to do a penguin count.
I swear… this story gets more WTF the more I think about it.
hema, that was pricelss 🙂
Wow, Siddhartha, the cultural, environmental, and semantic arguments are awesome. But perhaps you’ve missed the meta-argument, as articulated by the US government just a couple of weeks ago —
You think anyone can cause any harm with these documents? Guess again, buddy, and you know why? Because we’re more confident! And getting paid!
Obviously Prakash Babu never heard of identity theft. I can just shake my head in disgust and say typical Indian bureaucracy.
musical,
Thanks! I aim to please! 😉
Guys, the way i see it, the consulate has no incentive to placate or keep the visa applicants happy. Hence the dumb nonchalant response. If they need a visa, they have to go there, whether they like it or not.
“”A cultural argument:
At the Indian Consulate, Consul General Prakash said there may be a cultural dimension to the level of outrage related to the incident among Western visa applicants. “In India, I would not be alarmed,” he said. “We have grown up giving such information in many, many places. We would not be so worried if someone had our passport number.” “
As long as our bureaucracy is run by dhotiwalla bihari’s from the cow belt, this type of asinine $h!t will continue to happen.
Crap, I just applied for & got my visa from the SF consulate last week so my papers have been on top of the trash pile. Unbelievable!
adi postulated
i dont believe sircar and prakash advertised their ethnicities. i dont believe they are from bihar. and even if they are, it reflects on them positively to have made it through the grinding indian civil services selection process. i am not sure what you communicated except for your ignorance and/or personal bias. now behave.
Precisely. in fact, the consulate does potential visitors a favor. It already gives them a taste of how such services would be implemented in India, if the visitor were to ever partake in them.
after reading this post,
i know i probably shouldn’t be laughing, but i just can’t help it 😀 😀 😀 😀 … then
i’m not laughing … can we stop using the p word on this blog? (and yes i am overly sensitive and yes i am in charge of the pc police) … and then
😀 😀 😀
Weird that the article cites a “cultural dimension” to the cavalier attitude toward personal data, when the whole Indian outsourcing / BPO industry is based on the premise that Westerners’ financial, medical, and other data will be safeguarded (there were fears about this early on, which have obviously subsided). Indians clearly know how to manage sensitive information. The writer of the article just went looking to have his biases confirmed, but the consul general should be recalled to India. This isn’t how a soon-to-be global economic superpower conducts business.
At least that’s what we’re all hoping. 😉
Must be a South Asian thang. In Kuala Lumpur, my hotel room overlooked the Pakistani embassy/consulate, and they used to burn paperwork in a metal barrel in the garden on a regaular basis.
i’ve been (un)lucky enough to attempt to take care of passport work with the indian embassies in sf and chicago — the employees there have the traditional indian mentality, aka, “i’ll take care of your work when i bloody well feel like it”. documents collect on the floor under the fax machine, files are unorganized (if even existent), work effort is zilch, and there is an complete lack of responsibility for services. so the tossing of confidential documents out with yesterday’s teabags doesn’t surprise me in the least.
anyone have any idea why this poor level of gov’t service is allowed to exist here? i understand its common in india, but i was shocked to encounter it sf and chicago.
glass houses (#16) made a very perceptive observation; the United States is par excellence a business-run society and the general culture reflects it. A large sector of indigenous business was completely excluded from state formation in India (I am going back to the mid-eighteenth contury now), and as such a ‘legal rational’ norm as (Max Weber would have described it) never emerged. Instead business communities relied on inter-personal relationships since the state never universalized or enforced indigenous business norms…..
I just want to let you all at ‘Sepia Mutiny’ know that this blog website is fab. I wish we had something like this in the UK.
I love how the NYC consulate has pan spit stains along the outside of the building (just like home!).
Also, even though it says it opens at 11am on Sundays, the guy’s chai doesn’t come until 11.30am, so don’t expect to get in before then. Also expect another 15 minutes to go by before he lifts up the shade to see your pathetic face!
I was working to get our non profit registered in Mumbai and when we went there, there were no computers and STACKS and STACKS of papers and organizational appeals all over the place. Minimum 1.5 inches of dust. Compared to some of the other BMC (Bombay Municipal Corp) offices, which are fairly modern (and don’t have AS MANY stacks). It was pretty appalling to think of how many pending cases are still lying there.
Eglantine, all you need is a blog account somewhere and some overeducated desi friends with too much time on their hands!
Ok, given the way this thread is going, I can no longer resist sharing a personal anecdote.
In Bangkok last year, I was strolling around Wat Pho temple when I was smitten with a spunky but malnourished kitten with the oddest markings I’d ever seen, and decided to see if I could bring her home with me to the US. (One small complication, I was routed home through Bombay for some R & R, so I’d have to take her through there too.)
I called the US Embassy in BKK (for some odd reason, the answer to the what-paperwork-do-I-need question comes under the Homeland Security unit; I kid you not) and the woman asked me “Do you have an email address?”
Five minutes later, or less, she had emailed me a PDF detailing what the US gov’t and the Thai gov’t required.
Ok, on to the Indian consulate now.
I was put through to a man who said “Hmm, I haven’t had a query like this in a while. Hold on, please, while I check with a colleague.”
He puts down the phone on his desk and says to a colleague in the room (I can overhear this ‘cos I’m not on hold) “There’s this woman who wants to bring a cat from Thailand to India for a few days before traveling on to the US. What sort of paperwork does she need?”
Colleague replies “I don’t know! Tell her to go away!”
Helpful bureaucrat #1 says “I can’t tell her to go away!”
He tells me he’ll try to find out and I should call back the next day.
Next day, no luck, he suggests I call Air India.
They also don’t know.
I ended up calling Bombay International Airport Customs and had someone say “I don’t know, but try the _______ Dept. Here’s their number.” (Note, not “I’ll transfer you.”)
20 international calls from my hotel room in BKK to various airport departments later, I get through to a vet at some agri dept who tells me all the paperwork I need, plus a photo of the kitten.
[A photo???? In case she gets loose and infects Santa Cruz with a strain of the avian flu? Would she then appear on a CNN-IBN news bulletin? “If you’ve seen this kitten, please contact authorities immediately.”]
I also discovered the info – guess where ? – on the website of the Indian consulate in NY, though minus the bit about the photo. I had asked a family member in NY to call the consulate to be sure the info was still valid, but it was impossible to get through to anyone.
So, off we head to Bombay.
At the airport, cart laden with luggage, ciggies from the BKK duty free, and 1/2 kilo tortoiseshell kitten in tow, I am the lone eejit making her way to the red channel.
I approach one customs man and smile, saying in my best excuse-me-Mr.-Customs-Official-please-don’t-take-my-kitten-from-me voice:
“Hello, I’m here to declare this cat.”
“Vaaaaat is in your luggage?”
“Um, no, sir, I’m not here about the luggage, I’m here about this cat. She has her papers and all her injections.” (Holding up thick dossier.)
“Vaaat? You have injections?”
“No, no, sir, I have this cat, and SHE has had her necessary injections.”
Wave of hand in kitten’s direction. “Cat is ok. Vaaaat is in your luggage?” (Not even looking once at cat nor paperwork.)
Needless to say, we made it through customs, and home to NY a few days later.
I did find it a little alarming that no one even looked at her. She could have as well been a small endangered monkey. (I didn’t use the “m” word, Siddhartha.)
Coming through JFK, I had a small repeat performance just before I exited the baggage claim area, saying to the customs guy you give your declaration to “Hi, I guess I need to declare her to you.” (Holding up the carrier.)
“Nope, you don’t. Welcome home.” Takes form and waves me through.
I think it even has them on the inside too. I love those ticket numbers that you HAVE TO KEEP, until your number is displayed. If you lose it..tough luck, NEXT!
Isn’t Pickled Politics based in the UK?
Is in’t that how the DMV’s work too? The meat department at my grocery store in LA has the same system.
filmiholic, that was a wonderful thing you did – adopting the kitten and going through that bureaucratic maze for her. how’s she doing?
I would have expected nothing less than this from our consulate, given that they live in a world of their own, a little India in the USA. Any suggestions on how we can get to them, to let them know that they need to start learning about the culture of the host country since they are here to actually “serve” the residents of the host country. I don’t really want to write them a letter with my name and address, or even email them with my real identity. Not only because it will be plastered all over the city, but also because I don’t want to end up in some blacklist of folks who dare question/comment on their actions. You see, I need their “blessings” on a regular basis to visit desh. I’m sure they don’t read Sepia Mutiny, so I want them to hear our collective reaction, without identifying each one of us separately. Is this even possible?
I can vouch a similiar story for Filmiholic.
My aunt (a vile person) came back from Colombia with a rare, endangered parrot she smuggled through into Chicago. She hadn’t bothered with ‘all that paperwork’.
These birds are said to live many decades.
Poor parrot.
WGIIA, thanks for asking, she’s doing great! She had already been screened for leukemia and FIV before leaving BKK, but she also got a clean bill of health from the vet here and no uniquely Thai/SE Asian diseases appeared, so that was a relief.
Two funny things I’ve seen is, one, she goes crazy for sticks of incense (must be familiar to her from the temple), and, two, she seems to feel the cold here more than her US-born big brother. She actually perches on the radiator on really cold evenings, and she loves to burrow under blankets.
I still can’t quite believe we made it all the way home with no complications.
And I learned that if you want to feel like a celeb, take a small pet in carrier with you around the airport and in your aircraft cabin, and you’ll be the centre of attention. From Bangkok, to Bombay, to Paris, everyone who saw the carrier had to come up, peer inside, ask what she was, where she was from, and how much she cost. Ground crews in both Bangkok and Bombay solemnly assured me that I had earned myself blessings by giving her a home, and the security checkpoint people in Paris wanted to cuddle her!
Next objective: Bombay street puppy!
(Just kidding.)
(Well, sort of.) 🙂
Filmi, That’s a neat story. You did a great thing adopting that kitten.
Vidya,
India Abroad had a series of looooong letters to the editor about a year or so back that they ran for a several issues in a row, of people writing to complain about their awful treatment at the hands of the NY consulate (maybe some other cities too). I seem to remember that they expressly said they were doing it to bring the matter to the consulate’s attention because they had gotten so many complaints.
Oddly enough, the two times I went to get my visas there, I was in and out, everything just as promised.
BUT, as I sat in an Air France office in Bangkok last year, sorting out the arrangements for the kitten to go in the cabin, it flashed through my head that I had left my cancelled US passport (which contained my 10-year, multiple entry visa) at home in NY!
Now, I too was thrown into the same maelstrom so many others complain about. I had to navigate the Bangkok consulate who have a system similar to NY (drop off, pick up later), but with some weird twist I forget (something like, you drop off paperwork one day, drop off passport another morning, come back in afternoon of same day for passport with visa). Well, of course, me and a few other dodos, misunderstood this (‘cos the sign is not that clear, and the woman who accepted my paperwork didn’t contradict or clarify when I outlined the process incorrectly to her) and showed up in the afternoon, only to be yelled at like I was a Class A idiot by the man behind the plexiglass.
After much grousing to the woman next to him about our simple-minded inability to follow procedure, he took care of mine and the few other dopey turistas who also misunderstood. But wow, first, they carried in and out huge stacks of passports, and had masses of paperwork piled up all over, which just amazed me to see how many people do travel to India, and also to wonder how they keep track of it all. And second, they were totally obnoxious to the people applying for visas.
The last time I had an experience like that was applying for a Brazilian visa at the consulate in NY, and the staff there too were horrid, quite contrary to what you find when you’re in Brazil itself, and folks are so easygoing.
I think it may, at least in part, the result of working for outdated bureacracies. Once mistreated people get a teeny bit of power in such arrangements, they enjoy lording it over anyone they can.
I think the scene in India about identity theft is rapidly changing. Let me share some events that rotuinely happen with me. My name is a very common north indian name and my yahoo id is also similar. Last year I got account information of my “hum-naam” (person with same name) for his newly opened ICICI bank brokerage account. I even had his address, complete account number.
I sent several emails to ICICI bank in Delhi (I assume) explaining how they are sending information of one of their customer to my email address by mistake. After a couple of times explaining the IT dept. realized the blunder and sent me an email thanking.
I think this is just the beginning.
What is surprising is B.S. Prakash writes articles for rediff. And most of it is very sane and thoughtful. I am thinking he may have had to give those explanations after finding out some of our peons did this.
indeed Mytake. Thank you.
I read this one … and have nothing but respect for him. it is very well written. It also reflects sensitivity, intelligence and a weariness for having to defend his nation in more instances than one. i have a feeling he was baited into giving those somewhat odd comments. i am more sorry for him than not.
on another note – i have desisted commenting on ‘desi babudom’ so far – but guys – i have visited the toronto office a ouple of times and it’s a 4 hr affair every time – after the initial fluster, a weird tranquility settles in, once one realizes you cant hurry things. i clear up my calendar and sit down to people watch and sometimes laugh out openly at the delicious humanity of it all – people sharing sob stories, birht stories – well – it is a tough job at the consulate and the number of people marching through the doors is just insane – couple that with the variations in the audience – in education, in vulnerability, in language, in attitude and this can easily become a hairy (sic) situation. people flip out. processes break down.
the thing is, i am not necessarily concerned about whethere there was REALLY any security risk. It’s a matter of appearances – and the folks in SF have laid themselves open to closed-ended questions whose response is damning whatever the answer.
Anyway, thank you mytake. i quite enjoyed the article.
Anytime.
This is ridiculous! We are not in INDIA. Someone need to fire and re-hire. I was at the consulate where you pull a number and supposedly wait until they call it. About 20 mins into it I realized people were pulling numbers and then just waiting in line to be served. The numbers were not actually being used at ALL. So why do they have numbers and a screen which flashes them? As I left the consulate my number still had not been called. I love India but come on – we are in a more efficient place. A place where privacy is more respected. Get with the program FOBS!
have you ever managed a department that’s chronically short of funds, skilled staff and a domineering boss? no? dont tell me. you are a peopleperson who likesgettingthingsdone right and is a bornleader who wants to be ceo by the age of 35.
kiss my kaccha.
I think it’s important to remember that a certain “desiness” also pervades the majority of the Indian consulate’s customers.
It’s not uncommon for people to show up with incomplete applications, missing documentation, etc. and demand to get their new passports right away. There is also a certain expectation that you can use the same shortcuts people use in India: calling up your “jigri yaar” who just happens to the ambassador in DC who then “muscles” the consular official into working on your application first; offering to “help” the consular official in some way, etc. It can get pretty hairy for the poor guy working the counter.
I’ve had only good experiences with the consulate in Chicago. I sent them my documents by mail, with a pre-paid FedEx envelope and had my passport back with the visa stamp in less than the time suggested in the application form.
There’s probably no excuse for this cavalier handling of documents, but I do think the consular officials deserve at least some sympathy. They’re underpaid by American standards, and their spouses can’t work, etc.
filmiholic, glad to hear and see (just checked the most recent pics from your link) that malli is doing well and getting along with big brother 🙂
“Next objective: Bombay street puppy! (Just kidding.) (Well, sort of.) :-)”
i know the feeling and temptation. you’re lucky you didn’t have to subject malli to mandatory quarantine.
“Once mistreated people get a teeny bit of power in such arrangements, they enjoy lording it over anyone they can.”
the good old mini-hitler syndrome. some people don’t even have to be mistreated to behave like this.
Maybe they’d keep the visa applications forever too, if they had room for them. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so horrific. Maybe not having bonfires on the roof is a cultural difference, but identity theft is not. Hema, I don’t see that underpaying the consular staff should result in a no-shredding office management system, although I see that it could be all of a piece.
…and getting a U.S visa in Mumbai. Babugiri as practiced by Amreekans. Those guys must max their SAT (sadistic Attitude tests)
Atleast Indian Babus dont mistreat those who come to get Visa. Can whinning Americans here please do something about the staff in your countries counslate in Desi lands. Thanks