Via our news tab, mutineer Rupa alerts us to this week’s SECOND sepia fugging on the popular (and brutal) Go Fug Yourself blog. While I don’t necessarily agree with Heather’s review of pretty Parminder, I think the girls at GFY are usually spot-on with their wit and crit.
Rupa’s tip was about Mindy Kaling, someone whom I will admit I don’t know much about because she’s on NBC’s lesser version of The Office, a show I have never been able to sit through for an entire episode. No matter. The genius of GFY is its focus on the outfit. I don’t need to be an Office-fan to grasp THAT. Or not grasp it, as is the case here…what is up with those boots?
From the knees up, she looks adorable, all set for a divine NBC-Universal booze cruise of clenched-teeth joy, where every toast to their wonderful fall schedule comes with paranoia from Jeff Zucker that people will figure out they’ve swapped the costly champagne and top-shelf liquor with well booze and sparkling cider.
But her shoes are pure “local theater revival of Xanadu.” They look like she stapled wallpaper scraps to her ankles.
They actually look like chausses to me, but vatewer. Like expert Fugger Heather, I dig everything else she’s got going on, too. Her skin is glow-y, little black dresses are always money and the coral-red beads look great on her. But the boots…oy.
A few days ago, Brimful sent us the other GFY-related news item about Parminder Nagra getting fugged. In a delightful bit of connectivity, if you search SM for Mindy Kaling, Brimful’s comment about her here is one of two results you’ll find. If you can spin some sort of conspiracy theory out of that and the fact that both fuggees are on NBC shows, bring it. 😉
On to Parminder, specifically what GFY had to say about HER threads, since Fugger Heather and I already agree on the following:
Parminder Nagra is gorgeous.
Word. Where’s the “but”?
Which is why I wish heartily that she hadn’t gone and upholstered herself…Her body looks tense, as if she’s uncomfortable or uneasy in this confusing crosshatched fabric-store nightmare. I suspect it’s because no one expects the Spanish Inquisition — you have to maintain constant vigilence when you’re dressed as something resembling a Comfy Chair, because you risk being dragged unexpectedly into their brand of comfortable torture. From there it’s a short slide down to poking some old woman with the soft cushions and wondering, “How did this become my life?”
Owie. I don’t think she looks UPHOLSTERED, but I might be a little biased; I love green, plaid and wrap-dresses, so put Parminder Nagra in all of the above and I’m rather content. I know, it’s not her best look but if this is what “fugly” means…
fug•ly (adj.)
frightfully ugly; of or pertaining to something beyond the boundaries of normal unattractiveness. Ex: “That ‘Kabbalists Do It Better’ trucker hat is fugly.”
…in that picture, she’s not fugly to me. 🙂 Your thoughts?
:+:
On a slightly related note, I was just looking at this post when I realized that neither of these accomplished actresses are the color of milky tea. They don’t have jewel-colored eyes, fair skin or blonde/auburn hair/highlights. In other words, they look like plain old desi me. That thought made me happy, after a lifetime of hearing “You’re so pretty for a dark girl,” while growing up in Northern California. I could tell you stories about my personal experiences with the entire “fairness-is-a-virtue” mindset which would dislodge your jaw, but I’ll save it for later.
After approximately three seconds of basking in the glow of these two, I realized that if we swapped the “H” for a “B”, they’d never make it in THAT version of the industry. Hollywood will use an actress which looks like me, Bollywood…won’t.
And Jai, please note, not all of my comments were directed at you alone. Nor did I once disparage light-skinned women or people.
Our heroes, too! w00t Mamooty and Mohan Lal! 😉
People have been too polite to say so directly but I guess I’m the one who went overboard (post #154) in reference to some of my relatives’ complexions. I apologize for that, it was in poor taste. I guess I was reacting to some of the ‘anti-light skin’ vibes I was picking up here. To balance things out I should probably point out that despite the very fair relatives I mentioned, a large majority of my relatives are indeed ‘brown’ and some are quite dark(especially my dad’s side).
this conversation is winding down, but i would like to return jai’s kind words. i consider us cyberfriends and the discussion was engaged in a spirit of reciprocal amity. fundamentally i doubt jai and i differ in our intents though we disagree on particulars in regards to the facts.
just a few points
1) jai, my family socialized in the 1980s in the following portions
a) 1/2 of the time with bangladeshis b) 1/4 of the time with punjabi pakistanis c) 1/4 of the with other south asians, disproportionately a circle of west bengalis
so i did think i knew what the typical northwest indian looked like, if middle and upper class people from punjab were any evidence. they were light brown, but brown to my eye nonetheless (the punjabis were lighter than the mohajirs amongst them).
2 re: gautham, The result of this conditioning is that my sister only dates white guys, who find her beautiful, i have a small data sample, but i have seen several dark brown chix with white guys recently. a friend of mine has an adopted cousin in law who is a very dark south asian by origin who is married to a finnish american, for example. i have seen some references here and there (soc.culture.asian-indian) that color prejudice against darker women in the brown community drives some women to date white men who won’t disaparage there color. the irony. i’d like to here more about this if it is true (i am all for miscegenation, so i’m torn on this honestly).
3) latitude of england vs. USA, compare and contrast. no part of england is to the south of the continental USA.
4) this is not a trivial issue. i am a relatively shallow person myself, i’m not righteous about being insensitive to looks. but, as i said, the payoff is so trivial, and the hurt so salient, that i think this can never be beaten to death until the issue warrants no comment.
My inner pessimist wonders if minds were changed or if anyone was affected by this discussion? I found some of this thread depressing, though I recognize that there were wonderful moments of maturity, as well.
I, too, have female family members who date non-desi guys for reasons already mentioned, though it goes beyond their nowhere-near-fair complexions to larger issues of acceptance, feeling “othered” by other desis, etc. The bias many brown people have against darker skins certainly doesn’t help. For the sake of those girls (and everyone really) I sincerely hope we don’t pass these bullshit preferences on to our children. Dark, light, black, white…pretty is as pretty does. Here’s hoping that in ten years, we won’t sound like some of our more ignorant relatives.
Dharma Queen,
Absolutely not. There is a difference between having a grievance for legitimate reasons and having an unwarranted “grievance” because one is perceiving negative behaviours and intentions where none exist.
If several third-parties are talking amongst themselves and discussing the fact that they may have a disproportionate number of relatives or people from their community who look like X, it does not mean they are necessarily simultaneously implying a disparaging attitude towards people who look like Y. I do not recall any of the people concerned making negative statements about the latter on this thread. It also does not mean they are “boasting”. Such behaviours may occur on a widespread scale within desi society worldwide, but — unless you know the people concerned here personally — it does not mean that they are also motivated by the same drivers. The people concerned have done little to indicate this is the case. I also fail to see exactly who on this thread has been “droning on ad infinitum on thread after thread about fairness” — corrections may have been made on multiple threads in response to some commenters making erroneous statements about the supposed lack of light-skinned desis within the South Asian population as a whole, but beyond that I do not recall anyone behaving in the manner you have claimed them to.
Do you still want to call me a “hypocrite” ? Go ahead. You’re dead wrong, but if you have a grudge and are determined to take it out on people who do not deserve it, it’s easy to fabricate excuses to justify one’s behaviour. The concept of aggressors blaming the targets and projecting their own “issues” onto them is neither new nor uncommon within South Asian society.
Be that as it may, you repeatedly referred to previous statements I had made whilst paraphrasing them by taking them out of their original (and highly-relevant) context and by omitting key words which resulted in a substantial distortion of the statements’ fundamental meaning. I do not know if you did this accidentally or deliberately, but if it was the latter, please do not do it again in future.
Someone in an earlier post mentioned how they’ve noticed an increasing number of dark brown Indian women who are dating white men, that are not pre-occupied with the color of their skin. And then you said that this is ironic (sorry, feeling lazy about finding this post)
I’ll comment on this from experience. First of all, I don’t think this is ironic, It’s not like all white men only like other white women. You are all aware of how popular telemundo is with young white men and their admiration of hispanic women, many of whom are brown or tan. They like them because they think they are attractive. Don’t forget how much money is dropped each year on getting a tan by some of these people.
Going back to my own experience. I am neither dark, nor light, and when I met my “white” boyfriend, I don’t think we thought much about the color of each other’s skin past perhaps the first few seconds. You are drawn to people for reasons more complex than if they are light or dark and the shades in between. I only dated Indian men before this, and that was great as well, and surely based on more than we were both brown and Indian. If you are beautiful, you are beautiful, period, and clearly I don’t mean superficial beauty.
It’s so difficult to make these generalizations. My boyfriend has dated black women in the past, and race was less of an issue for them as a couple, than it was for other people they knew. And this is also true for our current situation. Every time I sit down to respond to a post, I cannot make any statements without being mentally inundated with a thousand exceptions.
PS: Unless of course the average white person you have in mind is a skinhead, and that’s an entirely different story, also more complex than just skin color.
Razib,
Thanks for the reciprocal buddiness, sport, right back atcha.
Yes I did say “sport”. Nobody says “sport” anymore. Or “homeboy”. It’s a dying art.
It probably varies according to the individual family/”clan”, where in Punjab they’re originally from, to some extent their caste (if applicable — not always), along of course with the fact that the UK is indeed further north than the US. Canada seems to have a lot of unusually light-skinned Punjabi girls too.
I think you need to get yourself invited to a big Punjabi wedding or at least some kind of large-scale bhangra gig, so that you’re exposed to a large enough range of people to be able to make a proper assessment of the percentages, phenotypes etc. Purely for academic purposes, of course (in the case of the ladies) 😉
Speaking of which, I hope you found that Pakistani actresses/models link to be, er, useful…..
I noticed that, apart from you, nobody else responded to the concrete suggestions I made in post #173 regarding how to feasibly facilitate changes in attitudes and the perception of attractiveness both within the desi population and in the wider “mainstream” population. Complaining is easy, but one has to reject the “victim mentality” mindset and actually do something about the problem. Not so easy, of course, but if one is serious about addressing the issue, people have to get up and be more proactive and dynamic about it. Otherwise they can just remove themselves from the equation and pursue other non-desi options — which is a luxury desis living in the West do have (more or less). In the meantime, a good course of action (either way), basically, is to step yo’ game up.
I still think you really enjoy saying “brown” every other word in every sentence. It’s like Desi Tourettes — the sufferer just can’t stop himself from saying the word “brown” all the time. Random eruptions of brownness.
For example:
Just an ordinary day on Sepia Mutiny……
Abhi: “So everyone, what do you think about the rise of black hip-hop culture within mainstream American society, the increasing impact of the Hispanic population on the nature of certain areas of the country, and how it will affect the South Asian community here in the next few years ?”
Razib: “Brown brown brownness. Brown. Brown brown brown brown. Brownland. And, er, brown.”
SM Intern: “Shaddup, you mad bleating goat.”
Razib (Grumbling and muttering): “……brown……”
{Still kidding 😉 }
BushHater, Another well-expressed, lucid comment. Thank you.
Jai: You’re choosing to interpret my references to various fairness-obsessed comments in a purely personal light. The comments were not direct quotes, they were meant to be loose and obvious references to a dialogue about fair skin that has appeared on many threads on this site. You may want to get that paranoia of YOURS checked out. I never singled you out, nor meant to, yet suddenly I’m an ‘aggressor’. Talk about projections. Despite your carefully constructed genteel and polite persona, you seem to delight in insinuating that other people’s arguments are the result of their problematic psyches. To resort to this indicates that you sense you’re on shaky ground; why not simply address other peoples’ arguments, instead of attacking their characters?
You can rationalize away every individual comment about how fair one is, how fair one’s relatives are, how fair one’s ethnic group is – but at the end of the day, it is fair skinned posters on these threads obsessing about how fair they are. Message: it is valuable and important to be fair.
brownz rok.
I’m loath to wade into this pit of acrimoniousness, but I have to say that your advice betrayed a serious lack of understanding of North American desi communities. While South Asians in the US and Canada don’t enjoy the sort of social prominence that UK desis have, they are in some ways less insular and parochial than their UK brethren. In my experience, it’s easier for UK desis to remain cloistered in their own ethnic and religious groups, and consequently they sometimes replicate some of the backwards attitudes of their parents – including attitudes towards skin colour. North American browns usually don’t have the luxury of that sort of self-segregation; that, coupled with their experience of being viewed by the mainstream as generic brown people, no matter how gora or kala they happen to be, means that they often give short shrift to traditional South Asian attitudes towards skin colour. The comments you chose to interpret as being motivated by jealousy seemed more like the result of mystification at aesthetic standards that the posters in question genuinely find bizarre.
Why fight it though, instead he should cut an album.
Re: the use of “pale” to indicate “very light” – let me explain why I used this term. In the US, where I have now lived for many years, that’s sort of standard to describe someone who looks like they’ve never been out in the sun. No hint of red or pink or tan on their face. E.g. me to a friend at the end of winter: “look at my legs, they’re so pale you can see my veins.” I think it’s not the greatest look, esp with the natural sallowness we desis tend to have (or perhaps this is just something I’ve internalized living in the “get some colour” culture of the US). Sort of the other extreme of being red with sunburn. I think Kareena Kapoor looks pretty pale and could use some nice peachy blush or bronzer. My SIL actually has similar colouring and regularly wears/looks great with bronzer, but most women in the family are surprised that she would want to “mar” her “fair” complexion thus.
I’m Punjabi, and am aware of the prevalence of and general smugness about “fair skin” in my community (Jai offers an excellent example of self-congratulation on this count).
Jai is welcome to wank away on what this says about my psyche. To pictures of fair Pakistani models or otherwise.
idealist-BushHater:
I think you misunderstood. I said some Punjabis, not all. Even Punjab is diverse. It always has been, some parts were even Greek speaking historically. For example, a lot of Bunias have settled in Punjab (Guptas, Aggarwals, Bansals, etc.) and they may very well speak Punjabi, but they are originally from another state (I believe Haryana), and they are quite different racially from Punjabi Khatri’s for example. Many Bunia’s consider themselves to be Punjabi, and they very well may be culturally, but racially, they are still different. I’m born and raised in America, but clearly there are differences between myself and someone who is African American. Our culture may be similar, but our race is not (unless you’re one of those that believe “there is only one race, the human race.”
“The Khatris… are mostly fair-complexioned and have good features. Trade is their main occupation. They claim to be in the direct line of the Kshatriyas of the Aryan race.” http://www.webindia123.com/punjab/People/People.htm
Other than Kashmiri’s, I do not know of another group in India that is considered “mostly fair.”
And conceptions of beauty does not equate to skin color necessarily. My good friend is married to a girl darker than him, and he thinks she’s the hottest thing on the planet. My cousin is a fair Punjabi married to a brown Jain (I think Gujurati) girl.
Contrary to what many believe, it is not necessarily the very fair Indians that make an issue out of it. Lets face it, most Indians in the U.s. aren’t very fair, and most of my personal friends are Indian. they bring it up to me, and almost make fun of me. In High School I was friends with a number of Maliyali guys. They used to make fun of my mom saying she “was white.” Which was ridiculous. Its okay to say that? And then if I said their mom’s look black, you think they wouldn’t take offense?? As many, if not more, dark people have the hangups on it. What’s the big deal anyway? I know a guy who’s like 6’3″, dark Indian dude always trys to make fun of me because I’m 5’10” and he’s so much taller. Its okay to call me shorty, but if i was to call him dark, it would be bad? or if a guy is bald, its okay for someone to make fun of him, but if he’s dark its not? double standards all the way…
some parts were even Greek speaking historically.
the greeks of bacteria and afghanistan did conquer parts of the punjab periodically, but, to my knowledge no part of the punjab was truly “greek speaking,” because greek hegemony was short-lived and superficial.
DT2004, many punjabis come to my weblog (which deals in genetics) trying to get information how they are different from other indians genetically. the reality is that you aren’t very different. you punjabis cluster with south asians on most genes. in other words, you maybe fair, but are still brown! (this does not go down well and has resulted in abuse via email)
(no, khatris aren’t descended from the aryan race because unless you are an anthropologist from 1931 no one believes in an aryan “race.” races do exist, that is certainly true, but the aryan one is not one of those)
also, indian americans are the most educated, by the numbers, of american ethnicities. there is no excuse for confusing family legend and lore for genuine history, ethnography or genetics. the truth is free via google.
btw, those Pakistani models were UGLY. huge noses. yeck. Region does make a huge difference though. Why is it that Imran Khan, the cricketer, who’s family is from Jullandhar (where my father’s side is from) is so fair, and then Musharraf, who is from Delhi (UP??) is dark? Has anyone thought why Pakistanis are overall fairer than Indians? It does have something to do with 63% of Pakistan being Punjabi. If you look at a Pakistani from Karachi, they look like their West Indian counterpart (Gujurati, Marathi). Those from Lahore look like Indians from Punjab.
LOL. DT2004, tell me if you ar FOB 🙂 puleez!
“look, gujaratis be kala, gujaratis be kala!!!”
ROFL. this is bizarro. there isn’t a pretense at being grown up.
since this thread isn’t dying, i have to tell an anecdote. when i was working in a lab a few years back there was a grad student and a post-doc i knew of who were married. she was from india. he was from iceland. the grad student i was working with was like, “it will be interesting to see what kind of children they’ll have, since he is so pale and she is so dark.”
anyway, she, the ostensibly dark one, was a “pure” kashmiri pandit who looked rather “iranian” and was very fair. it was clear my friend clumped my brown ass with her golden one as he told me this. that’s the way of the world, it’s not always fair 🙂
that’s why DT2004’s bizarre fixation with establishing the pecking order of color in punjab is chortle inducing at the end of the day.
Razib:
Before you stick your head out and it gets cut off, please educate yourself. Here, I’ll help:
“Diversity The Punjab region, due to its location near Central Asia and the Middle East has been prone to numerous invasions that have left imprints upon the local Punjabi population that remain present in the numerous sub-groups. The Punjabi people are a heterogeneous group and can be subdivided into a number of tribal groups in Pakistan called qaums while they adhere to caste identities in India, each having their own subtle differences.
In terms of ancestry, the majority of Punjabis share many similar genes with other South Asian populations, but also show a significant relationship with West Eurasian groups. In a 2004 Stanford study conducted with a wide sampling from India, including 112 Punjabis, and selected other countries, displayed the following:
Results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. [12] This study also found that roughly 20% of genetic markers in the Punjab were of West Asian origin, the highest amongst the sampled group of South Asians. Another study also showed that there has been limited gene flow in and out of South Asia, but the highest amount of genetic inflow from the west showed up in the Punjab region:
Major Ethnic Groups in Pakistan and surrounding areas, 1980. The Punjabis are shown in brown.Some preliminary conclusions from these varying tests support a largely South Asian genetic base for most Punjabis accompanied by some of the highest degrees of West Asian admixture found in South Asia.” source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_people
I would love to think that Assamese, Tamilians, Gujurati’s, Punjabis’ and Kashmiri’s are all the same race too Razib, but genetics proves otherwise. Until you can definitively PROVE that Punjabis (these findings actually go with what I have been saying, about 20% of Punjabis) are of the same race as other Indians, people such as myself will continue to believe what scientists say. Common sense also tells me better.
DT2004,
do only tamils do mathematics? 🙂 what do you think the other 80% is??? martian? the text you quote clearly indicates that south asians in generally are more related to each other than not, even though some groups like punjabis and assamese exhibit large dollops of exogenous ancestry. i follow genetics, and i follow south asian genetics closely, trying to intimidate me in this area is laughable. here is the most recent article of note in this area you will find: Polarity and temporality of high-resolution y-chromosome distributions in India identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of central asian pastoralists. yes, there is exogenous input into south asia, and that input from the northwest is more pronounced in the northwest, but, the only large south asian groups who tend to cluster predominantly with non-south asian groups are pashtuns and parsis (they cluster with iranians, for obvious reasons).
btw, here is the link to the full text (it should be free) of the scientific article that wiki cites & extracts from in DT2004’s post. here is the conclusion of the discussion for those interested: ….However, we have not found, in Punjab or anywhere else in India, Y chromosomes with the M170 or M35 mutations that together account for >30% in Greeks and Macedonians today (Semino et al. 2000). Given the sample size of 325 Indian Y chromosomes examined, however, it can be said that the Greek homeland (or European, more generally, where these markers are spread) contribution has been 0%–3% for the total population or 0%–15% for Punjab in particular. Such broad estimates are preliminary, at best. It will take larger sample sizes, more populations, and increased molecular resolution to determine the likely modest impact of historic gene flows to India on its pre-existing large populations.
this is not definitive (follow up research tended to not find anything close the the 15% high bound noted above), just as the work i cite above is not definitive, science is progressive. that being said, look at the numbers alluded to above and you’ll see the same general pattern. yes, punjabis share a higher frequency of lineages which are extant in western eruasia than other south asians (this would make sense, wouldn’t it, since punjab borders western eurasia?). on the other hand, the vast majority of punjabi genetic lineages remain south asian. so everyone wins! punjabis are the whitest of all brownz! they just aren’t as white as they are brown (by a big margin).
LOL. DT2004, tell me if you ar FOB 🙂 puleez! Razib,
Why should he be FOB? He is his own man? I do not agree one bit he saying (neither interest) but labeling him just like that……………Is FOB a favorite flogging horse?
I know you were born in Bangladesh, and spent few years there as a child? How many FOBs do you really know? 10-20, 100, 250, 525, 799. Tell me, please.
Honestly, person in the South Asian continent does not even have time – between power outage, running around to get food on the table, paying bills – It takes a hell of time there. Just last month I noticed things I do here in 5 minutes takes 3 hours there, and my parents are upper middle class Crossing a street in Delhi takes 15 minutes, and if you do not focus, you will be a road kill.
You know a rickshaw wallah, cobbler, vegetable vendor (hindu, muslim, sikh) struggles for food every day. They do not blog or expound on racial supremacy or phenotypes. Do you think anyone sits down and spouts racial hegemony when they commute on over-crowded Mumbai trains or on railway platforms? A kashmiri muslim is trying to dodge the bullet from security forces. A kashmiri pandit is trying to save his house from teroroists.
A call center or techie employee is more excited about his/ her new wealth. Go to DesiPundit (www.desipundit.com) and see how much “fairness” talk is going on there? Go to any cafe at IITs, IIM or Presidency College or Delhi University. I have a degree from one of the IIT in my past life, and we never discussed phenotypes – We discussed girls, Richard Feynman, Quarks, Rang de Basanti, GREs, and cricket. I was talking to one of professors last month, and he told me about Taleem project – making math and physics courses in Urdu on internet, and he is not Muslim. Have you visited blogs by IITs students right now there studying in Kanpur, Delhi, Bombay? You will be surprised by their choice of topics. They are very smart cookies. Go to Youth Curry – I think Rashmi Bansal is an IIM graduate. Or Uma at Indian Writing. She is an IAS officer. She writes with incredible sensitivity. Just see the topics she selects.
% wise, there are probably more neo-Nazis in Idaho/ Indiana/ Germany/ France than Shiv Senas in Maharastra. In electoral politics, Shiv Sena is not even in power? Neither is BJP. Even BJP is more than just Hindutva [I do not agree with their politics at all still their politics is more complex]
Is that your version of western enlightenment? This all genetic or fairness talk is gynamtics of an idle mind, and can only be afforded in affluent place where food and livelihood is not a struggle.
I am just standing up for billion FOBs back in South Asia.
sorry kush, i was over the line. though it is late…even in oregon. i wuz tired!
I’m off to the beach to get myself a nice even tan!
Razib:
It seems you are focusing your studies on Indians. With regards to studying the people of Punjab, this would be shortsighted because it is not taking into account the millions of contemporary Indian Punjabis who were originally from West Punjab, but migrated after partition(my family, for example, and some from even as far away as Peshawar like the (film) Kapoor family). I could not access your link, but if you refer to this report: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2003_v72_p313-332.pdf you will see that it also states that in Pakistan, there are even greater instances of West Asian/Eurasian genes. In fact, over 30 Greek Kings ruled this West Punjab, and languages such as Aramiac were widely used. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Pakistan. With regards to geneticisim, it would be crucial to include not only Pakistan but even parts of Afghanistan that were on the border or under Punjab rule. I dont think you’re understanding. The point here isn’t that some Punjabis are more different from other Indians than they are similar genetically, the point here is that notable differences exist, and I would not qualify them as the same race, no. Would you qualify a part black part white as one race?
sorry kush, i was over the line. though it is late…even in oregon. i wuz tired!
Razib, it is OK. No worries. I was a FOB about 20 years ago (even though my childhood was here, and then came back as student), sometimes I feel for them. We sometimes forget their humanity.
I am sure Renuzwal from Bangladesh (I read his blog sometimes) has to struggle day to day quite a bit, and then blog.
No worries.
DT2004,
i’m not going to argue with you over whether punjabis are a separate ‘race’ or not. rather, i will say this: the vast majority of genetic distance measurements i’ve seen which compare northwest south asians (punjabis are usually the vast majority of this sample) with iranians and other south asians place northwest south asians far closer to other south asians than iranian s (though northwest south asians have a bigger intersection/overlap with iranians than other south asians). most punjabis who inquire about this question seem not especially pleased when i respond in this fashion (i doubt most punjabis really care, but those who care to ask me seem to want a very specific answer). some people in pakistan, pashtuns like imran khan for example, are more like iranians than other south asians. but not most punjabis and sindhis. but you don’t have to listen to me, if you are curious, don’t read wiki, start here,
Y chromosomal DNA variation in pakistan. continue here, Most of the extant mtDNA boundaries in South and Southwest Asia were likely shaped during the initial settlement of Eurasia by anatomically modern humans. this is science, there is no one sentence answer, but the details can be interesting.
best, and good night.
Razib:
You write, “the vast majority of genetic distance measurements i’ve seen which compare northwest south asians (punjabis are usually the vast majority of this sample) with iranians and other south asians place northwest south asians far closer to other south asians than…”
Jesus dude, so based on what is “usually” the vast “majority” you have been arguing with me? THIS is your evidence? You do realize that many people, incorrectly(genetic scientists included), group Rajasthan, and even Gujurat as part of Northwest India, don’t you? This has been a big waste of time as you have no basis for your assertions here. I was hoping you may shed some more light on this subject, but apparently you have nothing more than self study, anecdotal information, and that to with “northwest” india and not even Punjab specific?? I’m a little disappointed that a self-proclaimed researcher on Indian genetics couldn’t provide more data to substantiate the claim the notion that “we’re all one race”
And, again, I would disagree with your notion that Punjabis are still “brown” how do you say that when there are white Punjabis? Not just Punjabis, in general Indians come in all shades, white, black, brown and yellow… and if you think that non Indians dont’ notice the difference you are dead wrong. I’ve lived in the U.S. for 28 years, and have grown up with kids of all different ethnic groups, and they DEFINITELY notice and question how can a person of one color be Indian and another Indian. Forget non-Indians, my brother in law didn’t know my sister was Indian before he started dating her. Iranians think I’m Persian, south americans think i’m Brazillian, and Italians think I’m Italian so what?? You think a guy from Tamil Naidu would be mistaken for Italian in Italy? Come on Razib, stop being in denial.
I wish for Indian unity as much as any proud Indian American, but if this is some sort of ploy (that we’re all the same) in hopes that all Indians will unify, this won’t work.
Good night nonetheless.
after posting the above i felt it could be construed as harsh, i’m sorry i did not intend it to be. however, i get a little frusturated when people tell me something that is completely against logic and science from what I have read.
Dharma Queen,
If by “carefully constructed”, you mean “fake”, then let me assure you that if I really were so inclined, there would be absolutely nothing stopping me from being blunt and extremely verbally abusive towards people here. Plenty of other commenters have behaved that way here in the past if they felt they were justified. I could have ignored your comments and ongoing subtle needling completely (despite your allegations that you were not specifically referring to my own previous comments, even though you were blatantly lifting my own key points — some of which nobody else here had made — and paraphrasing them), or I could have verbally hit you so hard you’d find yourself in the middle of next week. The fact that I have done neither is because of my own code of ethics and attitude towards other people, and not because I am “hiding my real personality” or out of fear of getting banned from SM. So have the decency to appreciate that, at least.
Yet more guesswork and assumptions on your part. I took no pleasure whatsoever in making my previous comments to you (I still don’t) and indeed strongly considered ignoring you completely as I have no interest in getting involved with ridiculous off-topic slanging matches with complete strangers who seem to be determined to pick a fight with someone. Don’t think that I haven’t noticed your continuing attempts to goad me into a negative reaction which would supposedly confirm your own negative assertions about me. I’d also be interested to know exactly where on this discussion forum I have “delighted in insinuating that other people’s arguments are the result of their problematic psyches” on a regular basis, if that behaviour is as frequent as you seem to suggest. In any case, it is a fact of life that sometimes people’s own behaviour and/or mindset is frequently at least a partial cause for the problems the may experience (which doesn’t mean that the opposite party isn’t guilty either, of course). Not everyone is necessarily entirely innocent, and we have to take responsibility for our own actions instead of playing the role of the perpetual victim and continually blaming other people.
The former is exactly what I have been doing and I have been extremely even-handed, as you are well aware. Please don’t attempt to deflect attention away from the fact that you misinterpreted both my views and my intentions by trying to “turn the tables on me”. And enough with the attempts at “chalaaki”, please.
It is better to approach these situations with a cool head and in the spirit of goodwill. Perhaps you may wish to consider that your self-professed excessive reaction to this topic (re: post #199) is distorting your perceptions and the clarity of your thinking. The pattern here is that — although there are certainly exceptions to this on the part of one or two other commenters, as I myself have clearly said — you are repeatedly seeing egotism, duplicity and offence where none are present.
If you genuinely think the entire concept of colour-bias/prejudice amongst South Asians is such a major problem — which it certainly is in many quarters — then why don’t you do something constructive and actually attempt to offer viable solutions to address the issue, as I did in post #173 ?
SP,
That’s complete bukwaas, as you are well aware. If you’re looking for a scapegoat, look elsewhere — my own attitude on the matter (which isn’t quite what you claim it is) is as clear as day on this thread, despite the fact that you are opportunistically ignoring all the points I have repeatedly made which actually contradict your assertion about me.
I think this statement itself, and the kind of language you have used, says all that needs to be said about your “psyche”. Find another target for that chip on your shoulder.
Amba,
re: post#212
I do actually agree with everything you said regarding the differences between the situation of the desi communities in the UK and the US and am already well aware of it. My point was regarding possible ways to constructively address prejudicial attitudes regarding skin colour within the American South Asian population along with what seems to be negative perceptions of the attractiveness of South Asians from the perspective of the wider non-desi American population and the “image” of desis in the media. That’s all 😉
DT2004,
I am going to take a page out of my friend Kush Tandon’s book and intervene in your ongoing debate with Razib.
Firstly, Razib is a well-intentioned person and his intentions are (usually) sincere; to my understanding, his aim is always to get to the “truth” of any given subject, and he will base his views and arguments on the maximum level of verifiable facts and thorough analysis. This does not mean he is always correct, of course (occasionally I have disagreed with him too), and I think that sometimes he would benefit from direct face-to-face experience in some areas rather than basing his thoughts on theoretical/textbook sources, but his actions are well-meaning, honest, and sincere on the basis of whatever information he has at hand. So please bear all this in mind during any debates with him — there is no maliciousness present on his part.
Secondly, while I agree that on average, Punjabis as a whole are lighter-skinned and sharper-featured than most (not all) other Indian groups, it is worth bearing in mind that the group is not only heterogenous in their physical appearance (as you’ve correctly stated yourself) but in terms of their historical origin. There is a strong overlap with Kashmir as we already know, but there are also groups who have links to other regions such as Sindh, Rajasthan etc (I’m not referring to the Banyas etc here, which you have already mentioned). Futhermore, during Guru Gobind Singh’s time and the consolidation of the Khalsa, there were many Sikhs who were originally from all over the subcontinent and ended up settling in the Punjab region.
Thirdly, and following on from my previous point, there has always been a degree of migration within the subcontinent, both in relatively recent history and in more ancient times. One cannot say Punjabis as a whole are a “separate race” to the rest of the Indian population because, to some degree, there are ethnic ties within multiple populations (predominantly, although not exclusively, within Northern India in this case) going right back to the dawn of what we regard as Indian civilisation. People have been migrating into and out of the “greater Punjab” region for a very long time indeed. Hell, the lightest Indian guy I’ve ver met here in the UK is a Gujarati Vaniya/Banya friend of mine; he has black hair and dark brown eyes, but his facial features are completely European and his skin is white enough for me to have mistaken him for an English guy the first time I met him, despite the fact that both his parents are Gujjus and his ancestry is about as “traditonally” Gujarati as you can get. I’ve also met Gujarati women here who look no different to the lightest Punjabis in terms of both their skin colour and facial features.
So one must be careful of generalising too much or making assertions about supposedly “separate racial affiliations”.
Fourthly, and saying this from an objective point of view (although I’m sure you’ve figured what the following observation out already), bear in mind that there are people here who may not interpret your arguments as being based on a desire to “get to the truth of the facts” or to “clarify misconceptions”, but as an attempt to proclaim racial and colour-based superiority and reinforce the “colour heirarchy” along with its associated negative attitudes. There are certainly South Asians (including Punjabis) who do the latter in the “real world”, but because people have their own baggage and their perceptions will be influenced by their own experiences and assumptions, they will assume that you too have a nefarious agenda, especially as they don’t know you personally and will therefore make extrapolations in order to “fill in the blanks”. Just be careful how you phrase things and make it clear what your intentions are. If people are very ego-driven themselves (or have had very bad real-life experiences with people like that), they sometimes assume that everyone else is like that too. (None of this is referring to Razib, by the way). I’m saying this to you in a friendly way so don’t interpret it as some kind of admonishment or criticism.
Fifthly and finally, I am going to have to amicably but very strongly disagree with you about those Pakistani models 😉
DT2004,
One more point:
I agree with what you’re trying to say and I certainly understand what you mean about double standards, but the bottom line is that none of these actions are morally acceptable.
If one has something that confers an advantage in one’s life or is regarded as being a “positive thing”, then being aware of it is fine (it would be naive and possibly self-destructive not to be), but being arrogant and conceited about it and, especially, using it as something to undermine, insult, or dehumanise people who may not have the same thing is absolutely not acceptable. This applies to anything in life, whether it’s regarding physical appearance, intelligence, education, status, money, possessions, abilities or anything else.
Again, I do know what you mean about the double standards (I’ve briefly mentioned it myself in some of my previous posts and, apart from occasionally being on the receiving end of such behaviour “out in the real world”, I’ve also repeatedly seen the nasty treatment some lighter desi men and women have received at the hands of some older generation & 2nd-generation darker desis who feel threatened by them, are jealous of them, or are justifiably angry about the fact that they themselves {or someone close to them in a similar situation} may not be treated as well as the lighter people in some quarters of South Asian society), but two wrongs definitely do not make a right.
I’m sure you were just playing Devil’s Advocate here, but since a lot of preconceptions and erroneous assumptions are currently flying around on this thread regarding intentions and attitudes, I thought that this point needed to be clearly made.
Ooh, so is there really some truth to the Greek-Punjabi mixing thing? I had a Greek friend in college whose father went to Chandigarh for work often and she loved to go on about how Alexander’s men had left their seed there and that’s why Panjus and Greeks looked so alike (though I’m guessing not Alexander himself, seeing as he favoured a different sort of crevice).
There is a “Hampshire” in the UK and there is a New Hampshire in the US. There is a “Chelsea” in UK and there are million “Chelsea”s in the US. Everyone “gets it” why its so. …… Then why is it so hard for people to understand that there is a “Gujurat” in Pakistan and there is Gujarat in India. Hint hint …
Jai, I did not call my reaction ‘excessive’ – I said it was excessive in the same way those who react to racism, sexism and homophobia react ‘excessively’ – ie, it was not excessive at all, but naturally indignant given the injustice at play. If you wish your words to be treated with respect (and not distorted), please do the same to others. SP is absolutely correct – your tone is one of constant self-congratulation (ie why do you have to tell us you are emotionally disciplined, polite, what your ethics are, how many light-skinned Indian women ‘you’ve been close to’ etc.), underscored by the fact that those who strongly disagree with you must have ‘chips on their shoulder’ or ‘personal grievances’. Look in the mirror one of these days.
There is a district (or town?) named ‘Gujarat’ in Pakistani Punjab, there is a ditrict (or town?) named Gujranwala in Pakistani Punjab too…as well as a town called Gujjar Khan; and then there is the Indian state named Gujarat. All these names derive from a tribe called the Gurjara, who were probably a Scythian-related central asian group who migrated to India a long time ago and settled down in various places, leaving us with these place names (and probably some genetic contribution to those various locales). The tribe/caste known as Gujjars (found in Pakistan and northern India, and belonging to both Muslim and Hindu faiths (not sure if there are any Sikh Gujjars) are probably largely descended from the Gurjaras too.
On a seprate note, I think what DT2004 is saying probably has some truth to it, even if only in PHENOTYPIC terms and not purely GENOTYPIC terms.
The reason why I brought up Gujarat, Pakistan is to draw attention to the fact that there has been migration in South Asia. (mainly from the west to the east). There is another point lot of people miss, that is, the Indian states are POLITICAL entities not racial ones. So it doesnt make any sense to say Punjabis are XXX and Gujaratis are YYY and Bengalis are ZZZ … as each of these groups (Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali) show some variance based on their ethnic affiliation.
By the way, DT2004, with all your evident pride in your genetic heritage…are you also interested in Punjabi CULTURE? Punjabi LANGUAGE and LITERATURE? The Punjabi PSYCHE? It’s very easy to focus on the genes and disregard all the other important things that make a people who they are. I take it you are a khatri…the Khatris have been notoriously disdainful of the Punjabi language and have largely adopted Hindi and English as their mothertongues.
curiouser and curiouser…
Dharma Queen,
You’re not willing to drop this, are you ? Fine.
When ? Please give specific examples. “Constant” infers “repeatedly”. Exactly where and when have I said anything to imply the above ? If you are correct, I am expecting multiple examples across multiple threads across an extended period of time.
I stated it once and the context of the original comment should explain to you exactly why I said it. I also said I was not always successful. Again, not “constant self-congratulation”.
When, exactly, have I grandstanded about being “polite” ? I said it to you just once, to underscore the fact that I had no animosity towards you, did not wish to cause offence, and was commenting on the behaviour that was possibly inadvertantly being projected on this forum. Your intentions certainly may not have been malicious, and were obviously driven by an admirable desire for justice, but it’s worth bearing in mind how random posts come across from the perspective of other people, especially when you paraphrase out-of-context comments by other people. It’s no different to what I’ve just said to DT2004 in a couple of my posts above. Also, my original comments about the neurotic behavior which I perceived to be exhibited on the part of some commenters were not solely or even predominantly directed at you, but it’s interesting that you perceived it differently.
It’s important to clarify these matters if there is any misunderstanding of one’s behaviour or intentions by another party.
I never quoted numbers and you know little of the overall context in which I made those comments, since you do not know me personally and know absolutely nothing about my own life-experience. More importantly, I said those things in order to clarify the reasons for my previous, and unintentionally-irate-sounding posts on the subject, which were predominantly part of a conversation between me and Razib. Razib himself, as you may have observed, is a good friend of mine on this forum and we have a very long history of amicable dialogue, so he understands where I’m coming from and the reality of my personality. I also thought I owed him an apology in case he had misunderstood my reasons and because, as I clearly stated, I thought I had unnecessarly (and inadvertantly) sidetracked the discussion from the core topic, but as it turned out, one was not necessary.
All completely wrong. I disagree with commenters on SM on a regular basis — as most other people here do — and if you can quote evidence where I have repeatedly accused other parties of the above when they have strongly disagreed with me, I’m sure we’d all like to see it.
Yes, because I have a noted and very long-term history of gratuitously insulting people on SM and twisting their words in order to justify my own agenda. Regular commenters who participate here on a daily basis (including the core Mutineers) will confirm this and all of your other allegations against me.
My conscience is entirely clear.
You first, bahenji.
Now unless you wish to continue to hijack this thread further with tangential allegations — and as I said, I think this is a silly misunderstanding, so I don’t have any interest in continuing this further — I suggest you try to bring something constructive to the table and offer feasible suggestions about what can be done to rectify the prejudice towards darker South Asians amongst the American desi community. And when I say concrete steps and viable, practical solutions, I am referring to the real world, rather than off-topic slanging matches with strangers across the internet.
Jai,
I’m so very happy and proud of you. You’ve found your very own personal CG.
Ah, Dharma Queen, let it go! You should know by now that there is a particular brand of pompous desi male who never tires of lecturing other people and loves the sound of his own voice/sight of his convoluted prose. He also clearly loves a fight, judging by how he barged into the discussion by berating people for their “tone” in referring to light-skinned people. Ain’t none of us going to change that. Let’s not egg him on. I.g.n.o.r.e.
Razib, I caught a reference way back to lack of genetic diversity among Africans – I seem to remember way back in anthro class learning that there was more genetic diversity in the African continent than anywhere else. Can you clarify?
A N N A,
You said it 😉
There is something weird happening to this blog, and it’s occurring across multiple threads. Who the hell are all these people ?! They’re not regulars as far as I know (at least in terms of posting comments if not necessarily just lurking instead), yet all kinds of accusations and wild extrapolations are flying around. What is going on with SM ?
By the way, I am so glad you finally decided to pop your head around the door and finally make an appearance here, my friend. Look at what you’ve started ! 😉
Amitabh,
I’ve taken several bullets for you on this thread so I hope you appreciate it, mundea…..
Dert buddy,
Good to see you here, bro. Funnily enough (re: the “CG” deja vu), I was thinking exactly the same thing 😉
They are readers. We write for them, and they take the time to comment. It is appreciated.
I am NOT following this thread so this is NOT a comment on any of the substantive conversation that may be taking place. However I need to react to this one line above insofar as it raises an issue about the blog.
I speak only for myself, but: This is an open, welcoming place. New commenters are highly welcome. There are certain basic rules of courtesy that are spelled out above the comment box, and so long as they are respected, everyone is welcome.
Moreover: Just because someone is a lurker, not a regular commenter, in no way diminishes their importance to the blog and their value to us. Personally, I enjoy very much the presence of the regulars, including the ones I sometimes disagree with, and I am glad you are all here. However, if it weren’t for the lurkers, I wouldn’t be writing. Thank you to all the lurkers and continue to be whoever the hell you want to be.
Peace.
Jai:
Yes you have, and I do appreciate it. I was surprised when I didn’t get roasted for my post #154, but later when I realised that you and Dharma Queen were going back and forth in ways which to some extent were related to my comments, I put in a quiet apology. Neither you nor Dharma Queen mentioned me by name but I realised you were defending my comments along with your own. Thank you.
LOL.
Amitabh,
The irony is that I never made any statements at all about lighter desis being superior or more attractive than their darker counterparts — apart from clarifying the prevalence of lighter people within some Indian communities, re: my previous chat with Razib — so it’s interesting to see supposed “supremacist” or prejudicial attitudes being ascribed to me despite little evidence that I support such a stance, “smugly” or otherwise (in fact I’ve explicitly stated the opposite). As you and other long-time participants on SM (and Sikhnet for that matter) would know, it’s also quite wildly inaccurate.
The recent comment about “a particular brand of desi male” also confirms exactly what I was saying regarding the stereotyping of strangers based on a handful of comments, along with basing opinions on guesswork and assumptions. Well, people see what they want to see.
Events on this thread have actually made me quite nostalgic for Sikhnet, believe it or not ! Which is certainly saying something, considering my mixed feelings about how that discussion forum has developed in recent times, as you know.
No problem about sticking up for you; I did think it was a slightly ill-considered move for you to go into too much detail about the prevalence of “white” people amongst Sikhs or your relatives (especially considering what happened after some of your comments on the CG/Black men & Asian women thread) — and hopefully you picked up on my subtle warning on that matter higher up this thread — but this is obviously an extremely sensitive topic and there is a huge amount of misinterpretation of people’s attitudes and motivations by some commenters out there. I’m sure you’ve noticed it too. However, I think you’re a good guy and am glad you’re continuing to participate on SM, so it’s unfortunate that some people may be projecting their own preconceptions onto others and causing them to make quite staggering negative assumptions about their personalities and opinions. The badtameezi towards complete strangers is quite astounding too, which is another reason why I was reminiscing about Sikhnet — debates frequently got heated there (as you probably remember) but on the whole, I don’t remember this level of neurosis being exhibited. Or maybe my memory’s just hazy 😉
It is, however, a shame that this thread has gone significantly off-topic and almost no-one is actually trying to offer some kind of constructive feedback and suggestions regarding how to rectify the colour-prejudice, apart from complaining about it.
Dert,
Modification to my previous comment: I appear to have more than one CG, so I guess I have the edge on you 😉 Maybe you need to try harder…..
Razib,
What the hell are you laughing at ? 😉 Half of the problems here are because of people misunderstanding the tone and historical context of my (and other people’s) conversations with you ! Badmaash……
I bet ANNA knew this would happen, mischievous woman…..